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sey
04-21-2013, 04:06 PM
I get that Cloak has perks that let them recharge their EGO quickly, but immediately? I thought that when you shoot, you go out of Cloak. But when I am killed, the follow-cam shows them already cloaked again.

I'm kind of confused about this. Is it meant to be this way?—if it weren't for this, I'd have no reason to complain about the Cloak/Shotgun. There are counters, but this seems a little ridiculous.

Is there really no downside to the Cloak EGO?

I love the game, but it's getting to the point where it's simply not fun anymore. I don't want to use Cloak myself, but it seems like you have to. Even when you do build to counter it, Cloak just has ridiculous advantages. Apparently there's no cooldown?

And this doesn't even take into account that Sensor Sweep is absolutely useless.

KashraFall
04-21-2013, 04:16 PM
Did a long drawn out discussion of this yesterday. People Defend cloak and will tell you that sensor is the counter to it and I honestly think it is because they don't want that part of the game that they enjoy, but others hate, destroyed. I personally despise the skill, I have died countless times to it and the sheer usefulness of it is just mind boggling. I personally think that when you are hit while in cloaked, you should uncloak until a certain time has passed of which you took no damage. This isn't the case however and instead, the person blips.

I have come up with a solution though, add water guns. It was clear in the movie predator that water was one of the main enemies of cloak so simply give us pistols, fill them with water and we can turn this from a PvP charade into a backyard wargrounds.

sey
04-21-2013, 04:21 PM
Did a long drawn out discussion of this yesterday. People Defend cloak and will tell you that sensor is the counter to it and I honestly think it is because they don't want that part of the game that they enjoy, but others hate, destroyed. I personally despise the skill, I have died countless times to it and the sheer usefulness of it is just mind boggling. I personally think that when you are hit while in cloaked, you should uncloak until a certain time has passed of which you took no damage. This isn't the case however and instead, the person blips.

That's all? I thought that shooting from Cloak would end the skill and enforce the cooldown. Jeez, no wonder it's so broken. There really is no downside.

I think I'm done with PVP until something changes—I really want to have fun, but it's just boring and frustrating now. I don't mind the Cloak/Shotgun—getting killed out of nowhere doesn't feel so bad if you know that your teammates can swoop in and avenge you. But there needs to be some kind of drawback. The fact that nearly everybody is doing the same thing just kills any semblance of a healthy metagame.

The sad thing is that there's not really much else to do in the main game, either. Pursuits are boring and monotonous, and there's a disappointing lack of stuff to do once you've gotten to the end. I decided to turn to PVP to enjoy the game on another level, but it's not entertaining. And what's the point of a game if not entertainment?

Nefarious
04-21-2013, 04:21 PM
lol here we go. The cloak noobs will pull all kinds of shtako out just to make it seem they are at the same advantage as all other powers so they can fool themselves into thinking they are good.

Heres the deal. In online competitive games ppl will claw like rats to use the cheapest of the cheap. It doesint matter if a ability or cheap gun used would make your character wear a pink dress and big red clown shoes. If its cheap they will all use it.

They will grind out the same song and dance, every match, every time, for hours. Doesint matter how lame or visually unappealing it might be...they will use it.

Hence for this game is cloak and shotgun. A bunch of invisible scrubs that have no common sense of approach or tactics chasing eachother.

And I have no problem against cloak. I figured out how to nullify that crap and then watch you stupid idiots dart around in confusion as you get chopped down.

But the fact of the matter is the most used is over all the most over powered.

Schnibbly
04-21-2013, 04:22 PM
I'm going to run around with cloak and a 1hit KO shotty now just because of threads like this.

Good luck, I'll be having a blast following your dumb *** for 5 mins then 1 shottin you.

*Dumb *** was meant towards no specific user.*

Skystriker
04-21-2013, 04:25 PM
It is because Cloak has a duration and it doesn't go off at the first shot. Taking no shot and firing none for some sec will make player goes invisible again.

Wtflag
04-21-2013, 04:25 PM
@OP the player is re-cloaked if his cloak still has duration on it and he has not sustained or dealed damage for a few seconds.

Cloak shotguns are basically the assassin of the game, moving in groups (which public players have yet to learn to do effectively) is the counter.

sey
04-21-2013, 04:28 PM
I'm going to run around with cloak and a 1hit KO shotty now just because of threads like this.

Good luck, I'll be having a blast following your dumb *** for 5 mins then 1 shottin you.

Man, I don't want to get into this, but—I don't really understand these kinds of replies. It seems that there are a lot of people around here who'd rather try to seem cool or superior instead of helping improve the game.

A healthy and balanced metagame is important in every successful game, and I hope that the developers take note of these issues—if every other thread wasn't about these balance issues, I wouldn't have made this thread at all. This is the kind of problem that is ruining the game's playability for a large amount of the userbase, which is something that the developers need to take note of.

Congratulations, friend. You're better than me at PvP. You can have that. I'd rather see the game improve so it can have a long healthy lifespan.


It is because Cloak has a duration and it doesn't go off at the first shot. Taking no shot and firing none for some sec will make player goes invisible again.

That seems odd, from a balancing perspective. Compare that with Decoy, which has duration and health of its own. My decoy often gets killed long before its duration is over. If the Decoy's duration can be interrupted, so should Cloak's.


Cloak shotguns are basically the assassin of the game, moving in groups (which public players have yet to learn to do effectively) is the counter.

That's the problem that I highlighted. I understand this counter, but if the Cloaked player immediately returns to being invisible, it's difficult for those groups to pile on him.

Even worse, the idea of forcing people to play in a certain way just to counter a ridiculously overplayed strategy isn't healthy for a metagame. It's either Cloak or anti-Cloak, and there's no room for anything else. That is a massive indication that something is wrong.

And like I said, I have no problem with Cloaks/Shotguns in general. There just needs to be some kind of downside to the strategy.

Nefarious
04-21-2013, 04:30 PM
I'm going to run around with cloak and a 1hit KO shotty now just because of threads like this.

Good luck, I'll be having a blast following your dumb *** for 5 mins then 1 shottin you.


See. Looking for excuses on why to use it already. The theory stands correct.

lmfao, no worries. You need it.

KashraFall
04-21-2013, 04:30 PM
Man, I don't want to get into this, but—I don't really understand these kinds of replies. It seems that there are a lot of people around here who'd rather try to seem cool or superior instead of helping improve the game.

A healthy and balanced metagame is important in every successful game, and I hope that the developers take note of these issues—if every other thread wasn't about these balance issues, I wouldn't have made this thread at all. This is the kind of problem that is ruining the game's playability for a large amount of the userbase, which is something that the developers need to take note of.

Congratulations, friend. You're better than me at PvP. You can have that. I'd rather see the game improve so it can have a long healthy lifespan.

If you took a gander at the shotgun thread just above this one. You would see he is one of the defenders ^.^. Best to ignore him and carry on with the discussion. Cloak would be fixed if you had a lower mobility in pvp. You already get shield regened, go out of sight and you can just sprint away. Provided it was used defensively of course.

Schnibbly
04-21-2013, 04:34 PM
See. Looking for excuses on why to use it already. The theory stands correct.

lmfao, no worries. You need it.

Yep /10ten

ExpiredLifetime
04-21-2013, 04:38 PM
The nature of cloak in this game is very broken due to the fact that you are 100% invisible while cloaked, has a 21 second duration with its perk (which can be extended to near infinite if using proper perks), 31 second cooldown with the correct perk and immediate shield regen upon entering cloak.

hagndaz
04-21-2013, 04:48 PM
Im not sure what cloak the others are using, but fully upgraded I uncloak with each shot/melee. It takes roughly 2 seconds without taking damage to recloak. Also, if you are shot/meleed/hit with a grenade, you will uncloak until you go a few seconds without taking damage. There are perks to extend cloak, lower cooldown time, extend any active ego power, and increase damage while from behind, while standing still, while ememies are charging you, ect. On top of that, there are weapons with synergies or bonuses that will either extend your ego power or shorten the cooldown. You can make all ego powers rediculously unfair with the right loadout, although I havent found one for decoy yet.

Cloak is great for coop and getting past turrets quicky. If it bothers you so much, equip a cluster or pyro grenade. That and watch your back. That's where the cloak folks will most likely be waiting for you.

cfStatic
04-21-2013, 04:49 PM
Oh boy, here we go again. I know, let's just remove the power from the game. Make it so everyone is on equal terms. Except that wont work, next thing we'll be talking about how Overcharge gives too much +damage and clearly that isn't fair because I'm using X! Or there isn't a way to tell Decoy's apart from the person casting it unless you saw them cast it or the damn thing is running against a wall! That ****s OP! It needs to have a large red sign that says "I'M FAKE!" above it, I mean, that's the only way it'd be fair right?

People are *****ing about shotguns right now, but I'd be willing to bet the 50k scrip on my character that as soon as Freight Yard is rereleased, tons of whiny kids will flock to the forums again and start crying about how that one guy just owned him by bunny hopping and using a bouncy launcher.

Here's the deal with cloak: At max level, it's 15 second ability that renders you invisible (completely, you cannot be seen, there's no shimmer or anything) that immediately activates your shield regen after becoming fully invisible and has a 40 second cooldown. If you shoot once you'll become mostly visible, and sustained fire will make you completely visible. Once you stop firing, assuming you have duration left, it will take 3 seconds to become completely invisible again. Taking damage of any kind will also partially remove you from cloak and will restart the 3 seconds as well(hey, isn't this what Krasha said he wanted? it's already there) . If you see the shimmer and there isn't the green team icon above it, shoot it. Simple as.

Wtflag
04-21-2013, 04:56 PM
Man, I don't want to get into this, but—I don't really understand these kinds of replies. It seems that there are a lot of people around here who'd rather try to seem cool or superior instead of helping improve the game.

A healthy and balanced metagame is important in every successful game, and I hope that the developers take note of these issues—if every other thread wasn't about these balance issues, I wouldn't have made this thread at all. This is the kind of problem that is ruining the game's playability for a large amount of the userbase, which is something that the developers need to take note of.

Congratulations, friend. You're better than me at PvP. You can have that. I'd rather see the game improve so it can have a long healthy lifespan.



That's the problem that I highlighted. I understand this counter, but if the Cloaked player immediately returns to being invisible, it's difficult for those groups to pile on him.

Even worse, the idea of forcing people to play in a certain way just to counter a ridiculously overplayed strategy isn't healthy for a metagame. It's either Cloak or anti-Cloak, and there's no room for anything else. That is a massive indication that something is wrong.

And like I said, I have no problem with Cloaks/Shotguns in general. There just needs to be some kind of downside to the strategy.

Doesn't re-cloak immediately. I know because I get ripped a new one if I choose the wrong target to kill and he has alert teammates.

The key is to be aware of your minimap, if you spot a red dot moving towards you and sudden disappear you know someone is cloaked towards you. Activate that decoy or spray the area infront of you with a high clip/aoe weapon to reveal him. Just make sure to switch to your primary kill weapon once he realises he is revealed.

A number of cloakers have allowed me the first shot with my wide scatter shotgun and a number of the newbie ones too secured in their "invincibility" was too shocked to even react when I gunned them down while they are invisible. Having certain damage reduction perks (-30% from back) and running away while luring him into your detonators (firing at your own feet as you run away and then detonate, they wouldn't shoot you yet because they want to get closer) has also made for some really funny kills.

hagndaz
04-21-2013, 04:57 PM
Here's the deal with cloak: At max level, it's 15 second ability that renders you invisible (completely, you cannot be seen, there's no shimmer or anything) that immediately activates your shield regen after becoming fully invisible and has a 40 second cooldown. If you shoot once you'll become mostly visible, and sustained fire will make you completely visible. Once you stop firing, assuming you have duration left, it will take 3 seconds to become completely invisible again. Taking damage of any kind will also partially remove you from cloak and will restart the 3 seconds as well(hey, isn't this what Krasha said he wanted? it's already there) . If you see the shimmer and there isn't the green team icon above it, shoot it. Simple as.

How dare you bring stats and actual gameplay mechanics into this discussion. What the hell are you thinking?

sey
04-21-2013, 04:58 PM
Cloak is great for coop and getting past turrets quicky. If it bothers you so much, equip a cluster or pyro grenade. That and watch your back. That's where the cloak folks will most likely be waiting for you.

See, that's the problem—it doesn't bother me. It bores me. The metagame is repetitive and stale, forcing players to either play Cloak or Anti-Cloak. A lot of this has to do with the maps, yeah, but the fact that Cloak has no downside is hurting the game.

When someone gets bored or frustrated with a game, they stop playing it. And for an MMO, that's a dangerous thing to have happen. We already know that the game has lots of problems on the PvE side—mainly the lack of diverse content. Players have little reason to continue playing the game once they've beaten Nim—even if they do all the repetitive side missions (which I do), the pursuits are more of a chore than anything else. The game loses its luster.

So people turn to PvP—and then that loses its luster even quicker.

At first, I thought to myself "Yeah man, I'll build my character to counter Cloak," and it works some of the time. It was fun for a couple of matches. But when nearly every player (on both teams) is using the Cloak strategy, it gets boring. And it gets boring fast.

At this point, I don't want to bother countering Cloak anymore—because it's everywhere. A healthy metagame has diversity, not one dominant strategy that forces every player to either use that strategy or counter it.

This isn't "oh man Cloak is so OP wah wah wah", this is a response to a major balancing issue that hopefully the developers will take note of. If players aren't enjoying the game (and the sheer amount of threads about Cloak should be some kind of indication), then there's a problem.

I want this game to succeed—and I think that the current nature of the PvP metagame is harmful to Defiance's long-term success.


Oh boy, here we go again. I know, let's just remove the power from the game. Make it so everyone is on equal terms. Except that wont work, next thing we'll be talking about how Overcharge gives too much +damage and clearly that isn't fair because I'm using X! Or there isn't a way to tell Decoy's apart from the person casting it unless you saw them cast it or the damn thing is running against a wall! That ****s OP! It needs to have a large red sign that says "I'M FAKE!" above it, I mean, that's the only way it'd be fair right?

I said nothing like this at all. Read my words, friend. I'm talking about small tweaks to push the metagame into a more balanced direction, not whining that the ability be removed. I've stated multiple times that I don't mind the existence of the Cloak/Shotgun strategy, just that Cloak has little to no downside when compared with the other powers, particularly Decoy.

cfStatic
04-21-2013, 04:59 PM
How dare you bring stats and actual gameplay mechanics into this discussion. What the hell are you thinking?

I...I just don't know anymore. Forgive me. :(

EDIT: Sey, if that's how you feel, petition Trion to stop dragging their feet and re-introduce Freight Yard and similar(or bigger) sized maps. The other powers are more prominent on those maps, as are mid and long ranged weapons.

Valethar
04-21-2013, 05:01 PM
That's the problem that I highlighted. I understand this counter, but if the Cloaked player immediately returns to being invisible, it's difficult for those groups to pile on him.


AOE's will cure that. Throw a grenade, spam your weapon across where he was standing, pop a cluster launcher at him, etc.. Damage will drop the cloak effect. If you already know where he is, you've got him. Unless he's hacking, he cant get all of you before you get him.

Wtflag
04-21-2013, 05:09 PM
Buffing decoy to cooldown while the skill is in effect (or create a perk to do that) would probably help a lot of the weaker players who lack map sense and/or the creative ways overcome that play style.

Nefarious
04-21-2013, 05:11 PM
AOE's will cure that. Throw a grenade, spam your weapon across where he was standing, pop a cluster launcher at him, etc.. Damage will drop the cloak effect. If you already know where he is, you've got him. Unless he's hacking, he cant get all of you before you get him.

lol but everyone has cloak and shotgun. 98.5% of players dont have the tools to anti cloak enemies since they are cloak players themselves ahah.

hagndaz
04-21-2013, 05:15 PM
And for an MMO, that's a dangerous thing to have happen

We all need to stop kidding ourselves. Although this was marketed as and referred to as an MMO, it isn't. At least not in a traditional sense. It is massive, it is multiplayer, and it is online, but it lacks almost all of the allure and draw of most of the others. Im not trying to be a troll, I really enjoy the game, flaws and all. I havent nerded out like this with a game in a long time, and its a good feeling to have again. Give it another month, people will leave and go back to whatever else they were playing and the game will be more enjoyable. Sadly this is the plight of all early adopters. Actually Im probably going to shelf this and play Riptide on Tuesday for a bit. I have complete confidence that when I comeback it will be a better experience. Im going to watch Game of Thrones now, so I apologize for any delayed response.

cfStatic
04-21-2013, 05:21 PM
lol but everyone has cloak and shotgun. 98.5% of players dont have the tools to anti cloak enemies since they are cloak players themselves ahah.
Fire your shotgun in their general direction. Works just as well. Nice try though? I guess...


Also, MMO =/= MMORPG. Defiance is an MMOTPS with RPG elements, not an MMORPG with TPS.

sey
04-21-2013, 05:27 PM
Also, MMO =/= MMORPG. Defiance is an MMOTPS with RPG elements, not an MMORPG with TPS.

I don't think that anybody said otherwise. And if they did, how is that relevent to this conversation in any way?

Every game, no matter the genre or medium, requires a healthy and balanced metagame in order to prosper. If nothing changes, the game won't last long, simply because its repetitive "Cloak or Anti-Cloak" nature is putting off a lot of players.

Take Chess for example. It's a classic game, one of the best games in the world, and it's been around forever. Now imagine if the rules were slightly different—say that the Black pawns could move in any direction, as if they were Queens. The white player would always be at a disadvantage, so the actual game would be a matter of winning the coin flip to choose your color. That game wouldn't be fun, and I can assure you that if those were the original rules, we wouldn't even know about Chess today.

It's an extreme example and I admit that it doesn't fit this scenario perfectly—but it illustrates the idea. A severely unbalanced metagame makes for a stagnant gaming experience.

cfStatic
04-21-2013, 06:01 PM
I don't think that anybody said otherwise. And if they did, how is that relevent to this conversation in any way?

Every game, no matter the genre or medium, requires a healthy and balanced metagame in order to prosper. If nothing changes, the game won't last long, simply because its repetitive "Cloak or Anti-Cloak" nature is putting off a lot of players.

Take Chess for example. It's a classic game, one of the best games in the world, and it's been around forever. Now imagine if the rules were slightly different—say that the Black pawns could move in any direction, as if they were Queens. The white player would always be at a disadvantage, so the actual game would be a matter of winning the coin flip to choose your color. That game wouldn't be fun, and I can assure you that if those were the original rules, we wouldn't even know about Chess today.

It's an extreme example and I admit that it doesn't fit this scenario perfectly—but it illustrates the idea. A severely unbalanced metagame makes for a stagnant gaming experience.

I was replying to Hagndaz who was replying to you. Recently there has been a silent "rpg" at the end of MMO, and it needs to be clarified that while this is an MMO, it's not an MMORPG. There are various pitfalls that come along with that association, especially if the game isn't actually that genre.

Also, I'm glad you brought up chess. I posted this in the shotgun thread, and while there is less variety, it still holds true in my opinion, but to lesser degrees. http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

sey
04-21-2013, 06:22 PM
Also, I'm glad you brought up chess. I posted this in the shotgun thread, and while there is less variety, it still holds true in my opinion, but to lesser degrees. http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

Good point—great video. It highlights well the exact problem I'm talking about. I'm all for a little bit of imbalance—I've made it clear that I don't want Cloak/Shotgun removed or anything. The problem with PvP is that the Cloak creates too severe of an imbalance. Some small tweaks could set the game on the right track.

Ideally, Cloak would have a couple good counters—and those counters would have counters, and those counters would be weak to Cloak, which would make for a healthy cyclical and evolving metagame. Unfortunately, that isn't likely, because Cloak's lack of significant downside means that its counters aren't even particularly effective against it. As a result, as said before, the vast majority of PvP players are using the Cloak/Shotgun, to the point where gameplay becomes stale.

Sure—the severe lack of maps has a lot to do with this. Give us some more maps, and the metagame might evolve. But in its current state, the imbalance is too severe—Cloak's domination is absolute (it's either Cloak, Anti-Cloak, or scrub and eventually give in to adopting one of those strategies).

A long-lasting game has a metagame that evolves, and Cloak's dominance makes that difficult. Normally, counter-cloak players would begin to take over, which would force even more new strategies, until Cloak makes its way back. But the developers made a serious oversight when designing the Cloak ability—assuming that players would use it with sniper rifles rather than shotguns—and as a result, Cloak is often more powerful that its counters, which prevents the metagame cycle from progressing.

hagndaz
04-21-2013, 07:15 PM
I was replying to Hagndaz who was replying to you. Recently there has been a silent "rpg" at the end of MMO, and it needs to be clarified that while this is an MMO, it's not an MMORPG.

well played sir.

Tgreen
04-21-2013, 07:38 PM
Cloak's lack of significant downside

vast majority of PvP players

severe lack of maps has a lot to do with this

metagame that evolves

1. You mentioned that you believed cloak makes players invisible immediately. This is not the case, the fading takes a little while and getting hit by anything reveals you as well. Why not test this yourself ... if anything you learn to know the enemy.

2. ... is also the vast minority of players overall.

3. No. It has absolutely everything to do with this. Not shotguns or cloak - while very annoying right now - but the terrain dictates pace and art of combat.

4. Metagame. Evolvolution. Three weeks into the game.

Sarin
04-21-2013, 07:46 PM
The nature of cloak in this game is very broken due to the fact that you are 100% invisible while cloaked, has a 21 second duration with its perk (which can be extended to near infinite if using proper perks), 31 second cooldown with the correct perk and immediate shield regen upon entering cloak.


THIS

Is the only legit argument I've seen against cloak. You are completely invis which as a shotgun cloaker myself I think it's a little unfair.

Every game (bar MMORPGS) that has cloak always has a slight shimmer so that 1v1 is still fair.

As it's been said many a time, too many people who are calling for cloak nerfs just plainly suck at team play, as a cloaker you are purely an assassin, a hit and run class, you cannot (or rarely) take on 2-3 people at once and live. With a shotgun, especially a OHK shotty, you need to be point blank meaning you're probably going to be in the open with no cover, this is where having a buddy will save you if you get jumped by a stealther.

But still, yes, you should be barely visible rather than 100% unspottable.

Ensu
04-21-2013, 07:47 PM
If you use an infector, you can see the glowing darts even when the enemy re-cloaks. Elemental effects like radiation, fire and electricity should also show. Certainly, the damage numbers on fire and electricity should reveal where the enemy is. I think bio-boots cloak with the player though.