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GrimBandito
04-22-2013, 07:28 AM
Hi, I'm a bit puzzled why it is necessary to slot perks on the character screen?

If I am able to put points into the various perks on the ego screen and unlock/advance them, what is the significance of slotting a few of the perks on the character screen? Are these perks not active unless I slot them? If so this is a huge waste of ego points and makes most of the ego perks redundant.

Perhaps somebody with more insight can explain.

Thanks.

Cutlass Jack
04-22-2013, 07:32 AM
Perks need to be equipped to be used. That simple. Paying to unlock them does nothing unless you equip them.

But you have multiple 'loadouts' that you can equip different perks to. So you can make different builds for different purposes.

DeMoted
04-22-2013, 07:33 AM
You can go to the grid its self and do it that way. You don't need to do it via load out screen.

Kommissar Kaede
04-22-2013, 07:34 AM
Yes you must equip the perks you buy.

No it is not a huge waste of perks, as most would consider the options a good thing.

RoG Goat
04-22-2013, 07:42 AM
Are you saying all perks should be active at once..?
LOlwut

ManaKeKz
04-22-2013, 07:49 AM
Are you saying all perks should be active at once..?
LOlwut

It's not that shocking a question when you're coming from an MMORPG point of view. In that kind of game it's pretty much unheard of that you spend points on talents which aren't automatically active (see Rift, for example).
As to the OP, the point of this system is to give you the option to pick the perks that augment your play style best. Also, as mentioned above, you can have different perks in different loadouts. Since you can earn enough points to buy all perks and all four powers, you could have 4 radically different loadouts centered around the four powers and their augmenting perks without having to respec all the time.

RoG Goat
04-22-2013, 07:53 AM
well, this isn't like most other MMOs... and it most certainly isn't an RPG.
Having all those perks active at the same time wouldn't work well in this game at all.

Oceanhawk
04-22-2013, 07:54 AM
Are you saying all perks should be active at once..?
LOlwut

Does it really matter anyway? Not like the perks do much. Hell I went from EGO 200-600 without using a single point, then when I dumped them all at once I didn't see any difference at all. A broken character progression system is broken.

DeMoted
04-22-2013, 07:56 AM
It's not that shocking a question when you're coming from an MMORPG point of view. In that kind of game it's pretty much unheard of that you spend points on talents which aren't automatically active (see Rift, for example).
As to the OP, the point of this system is to give you the option to pick the perks that augment your play style best. Also, as mentioned above, you can have different perks in different loadouts. Since you can earn enough points to buy all perks and all four powers, you could have 4 radically different loadouts centered around the four powers and their augmenting perks without having to respec all the time.

No MMO let's you have everything... So I have no idea what you are trying to get at.

Yokai
04-22-2013, 07:57 AM
Hi, I'm a bit puzzled why it is necessary to slot perks on the character screen?

If I am able to put points into the various perks on the ego screen and unlock/advance them, what is the significance of slotting a few of the perks on the character screen? Are these perks not active unless I slot them? If so this is a huge waste of ego points and makes most of the ego perks redundant.

Perhaps somebody with more insight can explain.

Thanks.

See Guild Wars 1 and The Secret World, both of which had a similar system. You have many skills/perks/specials to choose from, but you can only a small subset of them for use at any one time. The mechanic is similar to building a "deck" in a trading card game and ensures variety and diversity, as well as better balance between longtime players and new players.

RoG Goat
04-22-2013, 07:58 AM
Does it really matter anyway? Not like the perks do much. Hell I went from EGO 200-600 without using a single point, then when I dumped them all at once I didn't see any difference at all. A broken character progression system is broken.

You probably picked all the garbage perks, or combined perks from different play styles. If you make a build, with all perks fitting a certain play style, it makes quite a large difference.

DeMoted
04-22-2013, 08:01 AM
Perks make a huge difference. In a game that is so even keeled every little bonus helps. Which is why I was happy when I got high enough ego to see bonuses being added to my weapons.

Oceanhawk
04-22-2013, 08:03 AM
You probably picked all the garbage perks, or combined perks from different play styles. If you make a build, with all perks fitting a certain play style, it makes quite a large difference.

You assume too much. I stand by my statement. Character progression in this game is horrendous at best.

GrimBandito
04-22-2013, 08:03 AM
Are you saying all perks should be active at once..?
LOlwut
Well it may be an odd question but I just didn't understand why I should be able to put points into perks only to disgard most of them. Plus if you consider that for any perk I decide to slot, it makes sense to upgrade to level 3, what is the point of the perk levels? Am I not only ever going to upgrade to level 3 under any circumstance?

At my current level ingame I have 27 ego points to spend and have the ability to slot upto 4 perks. So 12 ego points go into the perks I have slotted while the remaining 15 go into unused perks.

It just comes down to the fact that you have to spend the majority of your ego points on unlocking perks you will never use, as a stepping stone to unlocking and upgrading those few perks you intend to slot. Hence why I said most of your ego points are wasted, combined with the odd asumption by the developers that somebody will want to upgrade perks with less than the max of 3 points invested.

Kommissar Kaede
04-22-2013, 08:06 AM
Well it may be an odd question but I just didn't understand why I should be able to put points into perks only to disgard most of them. Plus if you consider that for any perk I decide to slot, it makes sense to upgrade to level 3, what is the point of the perk levels? Am I not only ever going to upgrade to level 3 under any circumstance?

At my current level ingame I have 27 ego points to spend and have the ability to slot upto 4 perks. So 12 ego points go into the perks I have slotted while the remaining 15 go into unused perks.

It just comes down to the fact that you have to spend the majority of your ego points on unlocking perks you will never use, as a stepping stone to unlocking and upgrading those few perk you intend to slot. Hence why I said most of you ego points are wasted, combined with the odd asumption by the developers that somebody will want to upgrade perks with less than the max of 3 points invested.
The point is to allow you different options with building characters, while preventing a max level player from truly having some sort of advantage (realize, all perks can be achieved).

Have you noticed the loadout tabs? They let you try out different setups. The game is built around encouraging players to try out new things, rather than allow them to fall into some "local maximum" of effectiveness.

ManaKeKz
04-22-2013, 08:15 AM
Those points aren't really wasted, per se. They increase the pool of available perks for all of your loadouts. If a perk isn't suitable for your primary loadout, that doesn't mean you won't ever find a use for it in any loadout. You might also change your mind later as to which perks give you the most benefit - that's when you'll be happy you have a choice.
As for the ranks, it's true - you either go 1 point just to fill a gap, or 3 points if you want to use it. Keeping any perk at 2 points makes no sense to me either.

RoG Goat
04-22-2013, 08:15 AM
You assume too much. I stand by my statement. Character progression in this game is horrendous at best.


No... I assumed that you did what I said. Because if you didn't, you either simply didn't notice.. or the change really wasn't that significant because of what I suggested.



Well it may be an odd question but I just didn't understand why I should be able to put points into perks only to disgard most of them. Plus if you consider that for any perk I decide to slot, it makes sense to upgrade to level 3, what is the point of the perk levels? Am I not only ever going to upgrade to level 3 under any circumstance?

At my current level ingame I have 27 ego points to spend and have the ability to slot upto 4 perks. So 12 ego points go into the perks I have slotted while the remaining 15 go into unused perks.

It just comes down to the fact that you have to spend the majority of your ego points on unlocking perks you will never use, as a stepping stone to unlocking and upgrading those few perks you intend to slot. Hence why I said most of your ego points are wasted, combined with the odd asumption by the developers that somebody will want to upgrade perks with less than the max of 3 points invested.

I don't spend a majority of my points on unused perks... I look at all the perks, and I find the ones I want.... then I buy them. Are you trying to buy all the perks or something?


And upgrading the perks increases their effectiveness.

Archangel
04-22-2013, 08:32 AM
You assume too much. I stand by my statement. Character progression in this game is horrendous at best.

Happy to see some people stand by their opinion, even if their opinion is horrendous at best.

@OP

Its not a waste of a skill point if it has a means to an end.

You use points to get to those you want which you stated already. You can even max your skills/perks you wish to use and still have skills left over.

Is a surplus of anything really a bad thing?

You fill your car to full each time you go to the gas station, are you not storing a surplus for a time later that you need that gas?

Do you not fill your fridge with food for the week? This way you have a surplus of food so you dont have to go out and get more each day?

The idea of extra points are a surplus in case you wish to try different loadout combinations. Its not a waste. The points you spend give you freedom to mix things up.

Its also not a bad system to not give you access to everything all at once. Then there would be no point to a grid or loadout at all.

Its been proven many times people like to feel they have a say in their characters development. How their character progresses. This has been seen in recent games where people felt since they had all skills open to them at any time and no ability to customize their characters that it felt they had no investment into their character.

With the current, and well thought up actually grid system. Trion is allowing you to get a sense of choice and also freedom to change.

You get more reward out of playing when you try a build and it works really well and you can say"I came up with that combiniation." Or "I put in a lot of thought and trial and errors to come up with the perfect grid combo for my play style."

Players like this stuff. Well, most do. Maybe not all.

But its not a waste to have extra points and its not wasteful to force you to only pick a small portion of the available skills to use. The current system brings incentive.

-You want to raise you ego to unlock more perk slots so you can customize even more and quote "waste" less. I dont find it wasteful but im using your terminology.
-You want to level up so you have more points to unlock skills/perks
-You want to level your ego to unlock more loadouts so you can create different builds to fit different situations. Example: Loadout 1 can focus PVE, Loadout 2 can focus Arkfalls, Loadout 3 PVP, Loadout 4 Co-Op/Alternative PVP build

So there are good reasons to unlock additional skills in the off chance you may want to try them out and mix and match.

To those who just dont get the system and feel its poorly implemented all i have to say is you dont get it and the game is not for you.

Everyone else gets it. It works both for a goal to accomplish and fits well with the playstyle of this game. I think its great and so does Trion. So if your unhappy, post your suggestions in the suggestion thread with something more than just a baseless opinion with no backing evidence as to what you would think would be a better solution.

GrimBandito
04-22-2013, 08:56 AM
I don't spend a majority of my points on unused perks... I look at all the perks, and I find the ones I want.... then I buy them. Are you trying to buy all the perks or something?

Whether you actually put the spare points into perks or have them stored up is essentially the same thing, they are unused.


And upgrading the perks increases their effectiveness.

Yes but if you are always going to upgrade each slotted perk to level 3 anyway, perk levels are redundent. When you consider that even if you put ego points into perks to use them as a stepping stone to another perk you will only ever need to unlock that perk. Like wise if you are ALWAYS going to upgrade a slotted perk to level 3, you may as well remove the perk levels and have the maximum buff provided by just unlocking it.

All of this just stems from my confusion about how it works. Pretty simple really but imho some of it is just redundent.

Tgreen
04-22-2013, 08:58 AM
You assume too much. I stand by my statement. Character progression in this game is horrendous at best.

There are builds for both Overcharge and Cloak that leave you enough room for one weapon specific perk (like eg. 'Mad Bomber') that make a lot more than a little difference.
Thing is, you really need a higher number of perk slots to have the entire build work, which somewhat is the definition of character progression.

Decoy, while not augmenting damage has it's uses as well and is a fun skill.
Blur however I will not equip again until there's some defensive component to it or until it does anything useful at all.

And it's an understatement to call a lot of the perks total horse crap that only the insane and demented would view as good design.
General perk system however is done quite nicely.

Teao
04-22-2013, 09:06 AM
The progression in this game is mostly horizontal progression not vertical. You don't get stronger. You get more options for different situations. You don't always upgrade perks to 3 as sometimes you buy perks just to traverse the grid to get to another perk you want and those perks you don't plan to use that you buy to make a path there is no reason to upgrade to 3. Though that mechanism is a bit ridiculous IMO and those 1pt perks are a waste. It especially can be seen in that the arkfall codes give you a perk that is right near overcharge. If you chose overcharge as your starting perk, then the only real benefit you get from this perk is the perk itself. I chose cloak. I will probably never use the arkfall code perk. However it was awesome in that it unlocked another area of the grid for me, opposite from where my starting power was.

Kommissar Kaede
04-22-2013, 09:14 AM
Whether you actually put the spare points into perks or have them stored up is essentially the same thing, they are unused.


A perk can still be used to unlock another perk though, and thats pretty valid for certain builds.

SleepyPanda
04-22-2013, 09:15 AM
Does it really matter anyway? Not like the perks do much. Hell I went from EGO 200-600 without using a single point, then when I dumped them all at once I didn't see any difference at all. A broken character progression system is broken.

I have to agreed with this. I usually wait until I have a little points build up before unlocking as I see very little change when I use perks. I really only do it for achievements and pursuits or unlocking ego powers. Other than that, meh.

Daergar
04-22-2013, 09:30 AM
I have to agreed with this. I usually wait until I have a little points build up before unlocking as I see very little change when I use perks. I really only do it for achievements and pursuits or unlocking ego powers. Other than that, meh.

Then I humbly suggest you study the ego grid further.

From a pvp perspective, you basically need a few staple perks, simply because everyone else will (should) be using them. Half damage after shield breaks, 30% less damage from behind, 225 extra hp and so on. Matter of taste, naturally, but at least the first one is pretty much a given.

Secondary, for pve, you can make truly spectacular builds tailored around your playstyle.

Things that have one or two shots and are thus reloaded fully can have the Pumped Up perk, lowering your power's cooldown by 15% every time you reload fully. This is huge, especially for double-barreled shotguns and missile launchers.

You can boost your crit damage and nano-effect procs by a large percentage, which is especially nice for those like me who roll with a sniper and a lmg most of the time.

Once you get up to a higher EGO, you will see that you can easily branch out and cobble together perks from all four corners, not just those near your original power. Eventually, you can make several builds, using several different powers, thus covering every eventuality or specific occurence.

It's not a complicated system and the synergies are obvious once you study it for a bit. The attitude that it won't make a difference is horribly flawed though, so for your own sake, take another look. ;)

WrathPhoenix
04-22-2013, 09:33 AM
Does it really matter anyway? Not like the perks do much. Hell I went from EGO 200-600 without using a single point, then when I dumped them all at once I didn't see any difference at all. A broken character progression system is broken.

Learn to play, you must. Better then, you shall become.

Oceanhawk
04-22-2013, 09:44 AM
Learn to play, you must. Better then, you shall become.

Ah, another person that is too busy listening to hyperbole on the forums instead of testing things themselves.

Actually I intentionally didn't use points since for the first few i used I didn't notice a difference. So I tested it instead of believing everything other fanboys spouted off about.

Kommissar Kaede
04-22-2013, 09:48 AM
Ah, another person that is too busy listening to hyperbole on the forums instead of testing things themselves.

Actually I intentionally didn't use points since for the first few i used I didn't notice a difference. So I tested it instead of believing everything other fanboys spouted off about.
But as you said, it was ego 100-600 or some such

Why didn't you put the perks into the powers themselves?

That is quite a noticeable change (longer affects, higher damage, etc.).

Oceanhawk
04-22-2013, 09:52 AM
But as you said, it was ego 100-600 or some such

Why didn't you put the perks into the powers themselves?

That is quite a noticeable change (longer affects, higher damage, etc.).

Let me quote the part of my post that you obviously didn't read.

Actually I intentionally didn't use points since for the first few i used I didn't notice a difference. So I tested it instead of believing everything other fanboys spouted off about.

Kommissar Kaede
04-22-2013, 10:00 AM
Let me quote the part of my post that you obviously didn't read.

Perhaps my reading comprehension fails then, but I don't see how, given that the subject up to this point has mainly been around EGO perks, that what you said meant you were putting points into EGO powers.

And please, try to be civil. I'm not the one "attacking" you or calling you an idiot, I'm trying to point out possibilities that appear to have been overlooked.

ironhands
04-22-2013, 10:05 AM
It's not that shocking a question when you're coming from an MMORPG point of view. In that kind of game it's pretty much unheard of that you spend points on talents which aren't automatically active (see Rift, for example).
As to the OP, the point of this system is to give you the option to pick the perks that augment your play style best. Also, as mentioned above, you can have different perks in different loadouts. Since you can earn enough points to buy all perks and all four powers, you could have 4 radically different loadouts centered around the four powers and their augmenting perks without having to respec all the time.

but last I played, rift had different soul types, same idea

Oceanhawk
04-22-2013, 10:11 AM
Perhaps my reading comprehension fails then, but I don't see how, given that the subject up to this point has mainly been around EGO perks, that what you said meant you were putting points into EGO powers.

And please, try to be civil. I'm not the one "attacking" you or calling you an idiot, I'm trying to point out possibilities that appear to have been overlooked.

I understand how the EGO matrix works. You put points into the power you want then you equip said power in an open slot. I did all that, however as I was initially leveling up I felt like the skills I was using just didn't seem to make my kill stuff faster or allow me to survive longer. I realize there are dozens of skills and I tried to stick with the ones that I assumed would make my character stronger in some way.

So I decided to stop putting points into the EGO powers for a bit to see if I could see a big difference when I finally dumped a bunch into the matrix. What I found was that I didn't see any difference.

Ninno20
04-22-2013, 10:12 AM
9 perks per loadout 5 loadouts, thats 45 perks you can have, 5 different characters with different strengths and weaknesses.

The only downside to this i see is i have no point in making a new character, everything else it all about the pew pew, right back to killing shizz.

dalendria
04-22-2013, 10:20 AM
You probably picked all the garbage perks, or combined perks from different play styles. If you make a build, with all perks fitting a certain play style, it makes quite a large difference.

Agree with this statement. I noticed a huge improvement when I obtained and equipped some higher level perks.

Now I have a separate loadout with a different power and build. It is really helping me out in different situations (san fran dark matter, arkfalls, co-ops). Eventually, I will create an exclusive PVP loadout once I have tried out different things. Trying to find a PVP build that fits my style and is comfortable for me.

Wraieth
04-22-2013, 10:24 AM
Actually i think by giving us all those perks with multi load outs. It was thier way of working around a dual or multi spec device. This way you can pretty much build yourself for all kinds of siffrent play styles without having to respec and rebuild. and can switch out styles on the fly for any situation.

I think its alittle confusing to some people and alittle cumbersome, But the overall idea is pretty good to me.

SleepyPanda
04-22-2013, 11:40 AM
Then I humbly suggest you study the ego grid further.

From a pvp perspective, you basically need a few staple perks, simply because everyone else will (should) be using them. Half damage after shield breaks, 30% less damage from behind, 225 extra hp and so on. Matter of taste, naturally, but at least the first one is pretty much a given.

Secondary, for pve, you can make truly spectacular builds tailored around your playstyle.

Things that have one or two shots and are thus reloaded fully can have the Pumped Up perk, lowering your power's cooldown by 15% every time you reload fully. This is huge, especially for double-barreled shotguns and missile launchers.

You can boost your crit damage and nano-effect procs by a large percentage, which is especially nice for those like me who roll with a sniper and a lmg most of the time.

Once you get up to a higher EGO, you will see that you can easily branch out and cobble together perks from all four corners, not just those near your original power. Eventually, you can make several builds, using several different powers, thus covering every eventuality or specific occurence.

It's not a complicated system and the synergies are obvious once you study it for a bit. The attitude that it won't make a difference is horribly flawed though, so for your own sake, take another look. ;)


I understand how perks work but thanks for the feedback.

Warkaiser
04-22-2013, 12:33 PM
I understand how the EGO matrix works. You put points into the power you want then you equip said power in an open slot. I did all that, however as I was initially leveling up I felt like the skills I was using just didn't seem to make my kill stuff faster or allow me to survive longer. I realize there are dozens of skills and I tried to stick with the ones that I assumed would make my character stronger in some way.

So I decided to stop putting points into the EGO powers for a bit to see if I could see a big difference when I finally dumped a bunch into the matrix. What I found was that I didn't see any difference.

Ever think maybe youre just running a pretty crappy / ineffective setup that might cause you to not notice much difference?

Personally if I run my usually pure damage build, in an optimal situation I have:

+45% more damage
+45% more crit damage
+24% crit multiplier

Depending on current weapon choice I might also swap out either 9% of my crit multiplier or the +45% crit damage for an additional 75% damage from Intimidation instead.

If you think this or several other builds dont increase your killing power, especially when rocking a sniper rifle or pistol, Id like some of what youre smoking. Some people also run very effective tanky builds too.