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View Full Version : Weapon damage is client side... So is vehicle speed, etc. Way to go Trion, way to go.



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FuriousAtTrion
04-23-2013, 07:26 AM
I am a big fan of Lexinator's Defiance guide (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=136738681#) since it helped me start out and answered a lot of question that Trion never did. Now the same guide also explained why there are so many hackers plaguing my PvP matches.

He actually has videos in his guide that blatantly show people hacking. Shotgun damage for 800000 HP, AR pulses instantly killing Monarchs, etc. It's all very funny if it wasn't so sad. There is no actual hacking methods mentioned in there, just some very hilarious videos.

Trion, in this day and age how could you make weapon damage client side WITHOUT putting in any checks for max damage? Come on guys.

Also you do realize that you nerfed weapons based on hacked damage, right? Don't you have some way to check these things? I would really like an official Trion response.

Following some of those YouTube links I also spotted a video of a car zooming over the landscape because vehicle speed is also client side. What exactly does the server do in Defiance Trion? Does it even store our characters or will we eventually find out that they too are encoded and hashed somewhere on our hard drives?

As it is, there is no point in playing. Arkfalls and PvP are both dominated by hackers, and there is no incentive to do random events since they no longer give keys.

Even running a co-op dungeon I was grouped with a hacker that was instantly killing everything with his infector... Will those get nerfed again now? Because hitting a mob for 9 million damage with a homing weapon is quite OP.

Finally, any chance we can get some more incentive to PvP and do random events? As it is, one PvP match lasts longer and gives less rewards than doing a much faster PvE mission.

Arctic Fox
04-23-2013, 07:40 AM
Well put. It seems foolish to have these things client side. I too am interested in any official response you get. Please share should it ever happen.

DefiantFew
04-23-2013, 07:40 AM
That makes so much sense. Holy crap the guy shotgunning player after player from such a huge distance had to be reported as a hack right? I really hope those people don't go on the forums and complain about shotties being OP.

Dreadzor
04-23-2013, 07:55 AM
Seriously Trion, get your shtako together and sort this out 20 minutes ago...

DeMoted
04-23-2013, 07:57 AM
They can't even put out a proper patch you expect them to get rid of the baddies...

Radz
04-23-2013, 08:00 AM
At least on 360 the hacking will be somewhat less, but I'm sure it'll happen anyhow.

Arctic Fox
04-23-2013, 08:06 AM
At least on 360 the hacking will be somewhat less, but I'm sure it'll happen anyhow.

This, I play a lot of PC games and would typically only get an MMO for PC but I've become so frustrated with all the hacking that I decided to give the old Xbox a shot at it. Hopefully this will end soon...

RevoContro
04-23-2013, 08:17 AM
Reading from one of the paragraphs:


I also don't understand why so many people are calling for weapon nerfs when it is so obvious that they are being killed with hacked weapons. A shotgun should NOT be able to one shot a player from more than a few feet away (and even then only if that players perk selection is poor), and an infector should not be able to take you down in one homing shot since their damage is incredibly low. This really is common sense! Yet people still go on the forums and argue with everyone else that weapon XXX is too OP. Trion in turn responds by nerfing said weapon.

I hope Trion realize this & put this into consideration before nerfing any weapons from now on before said weapons become useless in PvE. There're a whole lot more of the game that need to be fix & now they have to deal with hackers as well? That's MMO I guess. I just hope that Trion will curb this issue before the game become totally unplayable. By then, I just rather see the game die but let's just hope it doesn't have to come to this.

Kingmoo
04-23-2013, 08:20 AM
The development /management conversation goes something like this:

Manager: "Will we get pvp in on time?"

Lead Dev: "Only if we put critical data client side"

Manager: "Whatever just get it in"

Radz
04-23-2013, 08:24 AM
This, I play a lot of PC games and would typically only get an MMO for PC but I've become so frustrated with all the hacking that I decided to give the old Xbox a shot at it. Hopefully this will end soon...

Like I said, I'm not so naive as to think it can't/won't happen, but I can confirm that I personally have not seen anyone hacking (at least noticably so). I've done several Arkfalls and none of them have spontaneously combusted or anything.

Now, I've also not played PvP yet (I only get a couple hours a week so I tend to stick to questlines or an Arkfall if it's close) and I imagine (especially on 360) that's where most hackers would hang out.

Arctic Fox
04-23-2013, 08:27 AM
Like I said, I'm not so naive as to think it can't/won't happen, but I can confirm that I personally have not seen anyone hacking (at least noticably so). I've done several Arkfalls and none of them have spontaneously combusted or anything.

Now, I've also not played PvP yet (I only get a couple hours a week so I tend to stick to questlines or an Arkfall if it's close) and I imagine (especially on 360) that's where most hackers would hang out.

A quick search over a few key sites has led me to find Xbox hacking clients specifically for defiance... I hope trion has a gameplan for this and puts an end to it. Though you might be interested Radz.

Radz
04-23-2013, 08:33 AM
A quick search over a few key sites has led me to find Xbox hacking clients specifically for defiance... I hope trion has a gameplan for this and puts an end to it. Though you might be interested Radz.

I'm not surprised, but at least the general console user doesn't really even think about this sort of thing. Most people who play console just want something they can plug in, slap a disc in, and go. PC users are as a whole more interested in modding. If not for cheating, at least for creative reasons.

Arctic Fox
04-23-2013, 08:36 AM
I'm not surprised, but at least the general console user doesn't really even think about this sort of thing. Most people who play console just want something they can plug in, slap a disc in, and go. PC users are as a whole more interested in modding. If not for cheating, at least for creative reasons.

Agreed dude, hopefully they will never catch on. I stopped playing borderlands because everyone had hacked weapons and it just got more annoying than fun. If Trion lets it get that bad, I'm out

Escalith
04-23-2013, 08:47 AM
As it is, there is no point in playing. Arkfalls and PvP are both dominated by hackers, and there is no incentive to do random events since they no longer give keys.

Are they? I PvP quite regulary, havn't found a single one. I know they exist, I've seen it on videos and heresay of others, but I played APLENTY of PvP matches, havn't seen a single one. Arkfalls? I'm usually top 1-3 in the damage meters, lest I come late, and I yet have to spot a hacker in there with crazy amounts of damage or similar.

I think you're largely overexeggarating the 'hacking' issue.

Yes, they exist. Yes, client side stats are bad. Yes they should be removed. But no - they aren't overly present in 99% of your gametime ruining everything you do.

2.400 EGO Rating, Lots of Arkfalls/PvP - Hackers spotted: 0

/edit/ on PC.

DefiantFew
04-23-2013, 09:27 AM
Are they? I PvP quite regulary, havn't found a single one. I know they exist, I've seen it on videos and heresay of others, but I played APLENTY of PvP matches, havn't seen a single one. Arkfalls? I'm usually top 1-3 in the damage meters, lest I come late, and I yet have to spot a hacker in there with crazy amounts of damage or similar.

I think you're largely overexeggarating the 'hacking' issue.

Yes, they exist. Yes, client side stats are bad. Yes they should be removed. But no - they aren't overly present in 99% of your gametime ruining everything you do.

2.400 EGO Rating, Lots of Arkfalls/PvP - Hackers spotted: 0

/edit/ on PC.

You probably don't notice them. Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they are not there.

I played 2 PvP matches and had a hacker in each one.

There are some very smart hackers out there. I often see unlimited ammo being used as a hack. Or wallhacking. Very hard to spot and track, but quite obvious when a shotgun plops out 50 rounds without being reloaded.

If you look at the video shown in that guide and go to that web page, it actually suggests that if you want an advantage in PvP to give yourself unlimited ammo and use an aimbot, as those are "impossible" to track.

Escalith
04-23-2013, 09:44 AM
You probably don't notice them. Just because you don't see them, doesn't mean they are not there.

I played 2 PvP matches and had a hacker in each one.

There are some very smart hackers out there. I often see unlimited ammo being used as a hack. Or wallhacking. Very hard to spot and track, but quite obvious when a shotgun plops out 50 rounds without being reloaded.

If you look at the video shown in that guide and go to that web page, it actually suggests that if you want an advantage in PvP to give yourself unlimited ammo and use an aimbot, as those are "impossible" to track.

And that's where it goes into guessing again. I never claimed they aren't there.

You just stated you played 2 matches and had hackers. But you can't really proove it, can you? Lest not those hacks that you stated are difficult to prove. And that's all kind of in the grey zone, where someone better than you, X or Y, often gets called a hacker, even though he's legit. And a hacker might get away with being called legit.

As for 50 rounds without reloading.. I've seen legit Orange Sawed-off Showguns with lucky mods and 30+ bullets, that means instead of 1 shot /reload, you could fire 15+ times.

Skeptic
04-23-2013, 09:48 AM
How is it that everyone has ran into so many hackers yet I have only seen one since release?

DefiantFew
04-23-2013, 09:58 AM
As for 50 rounds without reloading.. I've seen legit Orange Sawed-off Showguns with lucky mods and 30+ bullets, that means instead of 1 shot /reload, you could fire 15+ times.

15 shots and 50+ shots are completely different. The point was that he ran in, shotgunned most of our team without reloading, and ran out. Blur + shotgun with unlimited ammo = terrible. Yes, he killed 4 people by automatically firing without stopping. At ALL. No reloading whatsoever.

Skeptic
04-23-2013, 10:02 AM
I have two shotguns with 20 round magazines with overpower that is 40 rounds before I have to reload, and there are several perks that can increase your speed by about 45% I think.

Orge Lambart
04-23-2013, 10:04 AM
on Xbox, hackers seem very rare, I've only personally seen two. The first guy was flying through the air, had invincibility on so no matter how many times you shot him, he wouldn't lose health or shield.

The second guy one slotted everyone, with an AR, he was also invincible, and finished with like 20 - 0.

Although I only PVP to pick up the contracts, once I get max rank with echelon and 50 headshots I'll be done with PVP. Shadow wars I'll do until I knock out the capture 50 points, think I'm at like 20 - 25 right now.

FuriousAtTrion
04-23-2013, 10:04 AM
I have two shotguns with 20 round magazines with overpower that is 40 rounds before I have to reload, and there are several perks that can increase your speed by about 45% I think.

So he had Overpower AND Blur? Wouldn't that just be undeniable proof that he was hacking to get 2 EGO powers going at once?

DefiantFew, where his hands glowing red? Are you sure he had Blur?

Shogo_Yahagi
04-23-2013, 10:21 AM
I'm gobsmacked. What would possess you keep this data client side? This was just an invitation to hack.

Also, if this data is kept client side, why does it often hang in the middle of a loadout change during combat while it tries to figure out what weapon I have equipped? That's some sad, sad code right there.

Wrenito
04-23-2013, 10:24 AM
I'm gobsmacked. What would possess you keep this data client side? This was just an invitation to hack.This game is predominantly a console game, where hacking is less prevalent.

Ashikuro
04-23-2013, 10:29 AM
Client side character data for any online game is pathetic... It's so 1999. I'm very disappointed in Trion. With all their experience from Rift, they should seriously know better.

They have time to fix this. Upgrade the game, move the data to server side storage. Surely they will have server storage space with the number of customers quitting due to hackers.

KuroSaru
04-23-2013, 10:42 AM
Its all well and good every tom duck and harry saying "get with the times client-side critical values is a bad idea". But name me a multiplayer FPS that is capable of hold more than 1000 people at the same time.

Long story short FPS games require low-latency else you'd all be moaning about LAG. It also has to act like a MMO style server and deal with multiple arkfall events and shadow wars all held on the same world, even though they are in instances/phases. So to achieve this it is normal for game devs to look to off-load anything they can from the servers. So mistakes such as keeping gun damage, range happens. Will the cheaters ever really stop? I don't think it will. A lot can be fixed and detected but like all games its a maturing process and as long as community we report everyone who cheats, we can only hope eventually it matures to the state that cheats become a 1-2 annoyance who get perm-banned.

So instead of making countless thread after thread, use the in game reporting option and just ignore them. nearly all cheaters get caught in the end as long as the company want to do it. If you want to make threads make them asking Trion what are they doing about it.

Conflict
04-23-2013, 10:47 AM
Is Trion trying to repeat what Realtime Worlds did with APB?

Scrincer
04-23-2013, 11:05 AM
The weapon damage is not client side.
you guys are really funny...

Jeronan
04-23-2013, 11:17 AM
Client side character data for any online game is pathetic... It's so 1999. I'm very disappointed in Trion. With all their experience from Rift, they should seriously know better.

They have time to fix this. Upgrade the game, move the data to server side storage. Surely they will have server storage space with the number of customers quitting due to hackers.

I might sound dooming and glooming.

But this is just downright proof TRION screwed up big time and the PC Version of DEFIANCE is just doomed.

As they now have to support 3 platforms and can't even patch properly, yet alone even get a patch to the PS3.

What are the odds they gonna revamp a huge part of the Client and move data to the servers? Especially since they are already struggling keeping the servers running and somewhat performing.
Moving more Critical data to the server, also means increased Processing load on said server.

So forget it! We won't get an official response. Hell.... it won't be long till this thread will get outright deleted too, like all the other hack threads and TRION just continue on like nothing happened.

They most likely just gonna focus on XBOX360 and PS3, as hacks won't be much of a problem there.... and the PC Version will just be written off!

It's just sad it has come to this..... I just Write off the 60 bucks + 15 bucks in bits I waisted on this game and move on and forget this game even exists.

I just keep watching the TV show and leave it at that.

There are plenty other games to play and enjoy, so no big deal really.

nitroz76
04-23-2013, 11:22 AM
Cheat Engine, anyone?

EdgeTW
04-23-2013, 11:22 AM
Arkfalls? I'm usually top 1-3 in the damage meters, lest I come late, and I yet have to spot a hacker in there with crazy amounts of damage or similar.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but I run across a dozen posts a day making this claim. Heck, even I'm in the top 1-3 at Arkfalls. We can't all be occupying the first few slots. At this point I am beginning to suspect there is something bugged with that scoreboard and different people are seeing different results. Honestly would not surprise me.

Viibl
04-23-2013, 11:26 AM
Not to sidetrack the thread, but I run across a dozen posts a day making this claim. Heck, even I'm in the top 1-3 at Arkfalls. We can't all be occupying the first few slots. At this point I am beginning to suspect there is something bugged with that scoreboard and different people are seeing different results. Honestly would not surprise me.

Pretty sure most people are just lying about their amazing combat prowess. Just like everyone is an above average driver.

Warkaiser
04-23-2013, 11:39 AM
Not to sidetrack the thread, but I run across a dozen posts a day making this claim. Heck, even I'm in the top 1-3 at Arkfalls. We can't all be occupying the first few slots. At this point I am beginning to suspect there is something bugged with that scoreboard and different people are seeing different results. Honestly would not surprise me.

Kind of feel the same. Im sure theyre out there, but it doesnt seem to be as widespread as some make it out to be. Im on PC and Ive run into 1 situation in an Arkfall where it looked like there MAY have been some damage hacking going on, but not extreme enough to say for sure. Thats it. Havent run into it at all in PvP matches.

Meanwhile most of the time when I actually run my preferred damage build & gear, rather than using some crap I just threw on for gaining XP Ive had around 1m or more damage than the person in 2nd place in some arkfalls. I think more often than not, people just get owned and automatically assume that theyre so amazing at the game theyre playing that they couldnt have possibly lost unless the other person was cheating. Its been a thing in shooters since their creation. I spent years getting accused of hacking, lag switching, etc when taking on entire teams of people by myself with nothing but a pistol, just because they cant grasp the possibility that they simply arent very good and are extremely predictable.

NoWai
04-23-2013, 11:44 AM
Its all well and good every tom duck and harry saying "get with the times client-side critical values is a bad idea". But name me a multiplayer FPS that is capable of hold more than 1000 people at the same time.



Planetside 2, and unlike in Defiance you can actually see them on screen. There is also no pop in or client side damage nonsense. This seems like APB all over again.


The weapon damage is not client side.
you guys are really funny...

You couldn't be more wrong. This was proven by a YouTube video that teaches you how to hack Defiance with any number of hex editing software. Go to the guide linked in the first post, open the hacking video on YouTube and the one I am talking about is a suggestion. I won't post a direct link because I don't want to get banned.

Angeleus09
04-23-2013, 11:54 AM
Hacking... one of the reasons I don't mind the slight limitations of console gaming.

VonTreece
04-23-2013, 11:59 AM
Really Trion?!..
http://oi34.tinypic.com/mhavio.jpg

They will have to fix this eventually... If they don't this game will crash and burn fast.

No one wants to play a game that is overflowing with nothing but kids that take advantage of the obvious exploits in the game.

Just my two scrip..

chaosorb
04-23-2013, 12:05 PM
They can't even put out a proper patch you expect them to get rid of the baddies...

Oh please. Will it REALLY matter after 2-3 seasons of this show when it gets cancelled? Oh how do I know? We ARE talking about the SyFy channel after all. You know, the one that shows all the "B" rated movies and cancels scifi shows for wrestling. So after 2, maaaaaaaybe 3 seasons, who knows if this game will still even be running...

Sdric
04-23-2013, 12:07 PM
Hackers are really getting quite common.

Had one guy several times in my team today, kicked him each time when I was leader.

Was quite ridiculous though when he one-hit-killed everything with his blast rifle...
He made 550 Ego within 2 hours with this bull****...

chaosorb
04-23-2013, 12:10 PM
How is it that everyone has ran into so many hackers yet I have only seen one since release?

Um, they don't like you? Just a guess lol!

Escalith
04-23-2013, 12:30 PM
Not to sidetrack the thread, but I run across a dozen posts a day making this claim. Heck, even I'm in the top 1-3 at Arkfalls. We can't all be occupying the first few slots. At this point I am beginning to suspect there is something bugged with that scoreboard and different people are seeing different results. Honestly would not surprise me.

Keep in mind there can be several Arkfalls at once. On 6 different games. EU/NA PC/PS3/XBOX. :P


Pretty sure most people are just lying about their amazing combat prowess. Just like everyone is an above average driver.

I got a few screens that show me with top, or close to damage. Even posted one with 6,5M Damage done, I almost solo'd a major event. But alas, if you post them .. "Oh, it's bugged/hacks/other people didn't try/your ego rating/you got better weapons"

I'm at probably less than 2% of the arkfalls in EU/PC Present, but if I am I do score pretty high. I'm sorry for .. knowing where to aim? :S

NoWai
04-23-2013, 12:41 PM
So he had Overpower AND Blur? Wouldn't that just be undeniable proof that he was hacking to get 2 EGO powers going at once?

DefiantFew, where his hands glowing red? Are you sure he had Blur?


Would like to know this as well. If there is a hack that lets you use two EGO powers, that would be just funny.

Olcsonn
04-23-2013, 12:46 PM
Xbox, PS, PC all have seen their fair shares of hackers and they will continue to see this; however, I do believe that Trion made the mistake of putting such vital info client side and I also believe that they know that they messed up. Seeing and reading about Trion's past I do believe that they will come up with a fix as fast as they can. Dealing with the millions upon millions of lines of codes in these games take time to fix. You make a fix, test the fix, fix again, test again, fix again, test again, release, oh and fix again. The process for this relatively new industry is still trial and error and a child still growing up. Be patient, watch they small-minded, short-sighted, fools get banned left and right, report the crap out of them, but above all be patient.:cool:

OGkush
04-23-2013, 12:46 PM
Is there anyway they can fix it or wil lwe be stuck with hackers for ever?

Olcsonn
04-23-2013, 12:47 PM
Is there anyway they can fix it or wil lwe be stuck with hackers for ever?

They will fix it, and you will still be stuck with hackers. Even WoW that has been out for almost a decade still has hackers.

DeMoted
04-23-2013, 12:49 PM
Xbox, PS, PC all have seen their fair shares of hackers and they will continue to see this; however, I do believe that Trion made the mistake of putting such vital info client side and I also believe that they know that they messed up. Seeing and reading about Trion's past I do believe that they will come up with a fix as fast as they can. Dealing with the millions upon millions of lines of codes in these games take time to fix. You make a fix, test the fix, fix again, test again, fix again, test again, release, oh and fix again. The process for this relatively new industry is still trial and error and a child still growing up. Be patient, watch they small-minded, short-sighted, fools get banned left and right, report the crap out of them, but above all be patient.:cool:

That is why I played this game for console the chances of me seeing a hacker almost zero.
On PC you don't need to be a hacker to cheat in MMOs b.c the hackers make the hack packs for the baddies to download. That is the reason why PC will always have more hackers. Trion is very slow in acting on these types of things. Hell they can't even fix the bugs in their own game.

Olcsonn
04-23-2013, 12:55 PM
That is why I played this game for console the chances of me seeing a hacker almost zero.
On PC you don't need to be a hacker to cheat in MMOs b.c the hackers make the hack packs for the baddies to download. That is the reason why PC will always have more hackers. Trion is very slow in acting on these types of things. Hell they can't even fix the bugs in their own game.

I agree PC more than likely will always have more hackers, but I don't think people understand (you included, no offense) what goes into the fixes for these games. It is not as cut and dry as a copy and paste. Some of these small bugs may cover a couple thousand lines of code and it may be something as small a one letter/number that is off. I think that they have done a pretty good job fixing what they have and re-fixing some of the fixes. Would I like for them to have gotten it right the first time, or course, but at the same time I am trying really hard to be understanding and spreading the message of patience. It is hard to get mad at someone for not being able to quickly fix a problem that we do not under ourselves how to fix. It's like you know that it should not take more than an hour to change the oil in your car and a mechanic takes 6 hours, ok yeah RAGE! If you do not know how to rebuild a transmission can you rightly get made if it takes a longer than you thought though? That may sense in my head at least LOL.

FuriousAtTrion
04-23-2013, 01:09 PM
There will always be hackers around, but making it so easy to cheat AND not punishing hackers for weeks certainly isn't discouraging anything.

digibluez
04-23-2013, 01:23 PM
:cool::cool::cool:
Its a fps not tab targeting, there are technical restrictions how things can be done, and this is the downside of making a unique game without target lock

Technodude
04-23-2013, 01:29 PM
The weapon damage is not client side.
you guys are really funny...

OP even gave you the link of videos and post that explains that how damage is client side. Ignorance is bliss i guess?

DefiantFew
04-23-2013, 01:37 PM
Would like to know this as well. If there is a hack that lets you use two EGO powers, that would be just funny.

No, he was just using Blur.

Froggyman
04-23-2013, 02:04 PM
I have been in exactly two waterfront matches, and exactly two Shadow War matches. I was trying to wait until a bit later for PvP to balance out a bit, as cloak shotgun spamming the everloving crud out of everyone to win does not sound fun to me. But the episodic pursuits rolled out, and there it was.

In my first waterfront match, clearly we lost because we simply had no idea what was going on. I didn't see a single person cheating, we just got whooped on old style. In the second match, people were clearly cheating. People were using SMGs that would kill in one hit, or using more than one ego power at once, like overcharge and cloak.

And I never played a single shadow war match where someone wasn't cheating. I saw someone use ALL FOUR ego abilities at once, he looked like friggin' Nim. Some people took over 30 shots from multiple people to take down, and some people were completely invulnerable. It isn't every one on every team by far, but it's enough to raise some eyebrows, and it definitely needs to be stopped.

Also, for the arkfalls, the reason people claim that they are in the top 1-3 and have that be completely possible is because we are on different platforms, or different phases, and a lot of the people who come to forums are either very enthusiastic about the game, and are thus also usually quite talented, or they find something to be impossible to deal with, or broken. I take The top spot in an arkfall 9-10 times as long as I get there roughly when it starts. I have even snagged 1st place coming in at over half completed.

And I do lose first to really awesome people. But I also know that when I have 3 million, and the person below me has 2.6, and the first place has 9 mil, and we were ALL there from the beginning, something isn't right.

FuriousAtTrion
04-23-2013, 02:21 PM
There is an invulnerability hack out there too? Lol is HP client side as well? That is down right terrible.

Jeronan
04-23-2013, 02:25 PM
There is an invulnerability hack out there too? Lol is HP client side as well? That is down right terrible.

I think right now it's pretty much safe to say everything is clientside. :mad:

Ozgwald
04-23-2013, 02:25 PM
Yeah shadow wars suck, no miss, insta kill smg assault rifle or shotguns that hit you 10miles off and keep hitting you even when you drive out of the zone.

Ridiculous amounts of cheating is going on and it is getting unplayable, next week-end PvP might be done for and so will the game apart from those who care about the episode missions... Everyone I know is complaining about coming across more cheating, they even do it with entire groups having a shadow war behind 4k to 0... go Fish?

Yes invulnerable is in the game. Normally people die from 2 to 3 shots up close... than there are those that take 9 shots or more... The dmg is there as you can see the bar move, but only barely... Run over by cerberus? Hell no cerberus will blow up against random players when hit <- yep alrdy happens

Botsock
04-23-2013, 02:28 PM
The development /management conversation goes something like this:

Manager: "Will we get pvp in on time?"

Lead Dev: "Only if we put critical data client side"

Manager: "Whatever just get it in"Thank you, I am glad someone pointed this out! Some people need to realize that Developers can only say so much.. And no matter what their Producers will have final say EVERY TIME. The Developers know the game has issues.. does no one realize that internally a company really cares about it's product, and it's fanbase?

Kingmoo's comment was correct, Developers will say "We can't put this in, it's not finished yet" and Producers will turn around and say "Well.. we have a deadline, so you need to find an easy way to make it work". Because game development is a pipe-line where you have to have things go as smoothly as possible to hit your dates, even if that means getting a feature in just to fix it later. Does it suck for the consumer to play around with a feature that isn't exactly complete? YES. Does it also suck for the developer when a feature is implemented even though they know it isn't complete? YES.

It's a terrible feeling knowing your product isn't as complete as you want it to be, but you have Producers and product holders breathing down your neck telling you to "Hurry!". But Game Development is always about sacrifices, and no developer will be completely satisfied with their end result. People should be glad that Trion is even attempting to fix the game, and I understand cheating should not be tolerated, but so does Trion.

Bottom-line is.. if you like the game support it, even through the silly times. If you don't... then I have no idea why you're here, maybe you like to read..

Jeronan
04-23-2013, 02:35 PM
Thank you, I am glad someone pointed this out! Some people need to realize that Developers can only say so much.. And no matter what their Producers will have final say EVERY TIME. The Developers know the game has issues.. does no one realize that internally a company really cares about it's product, and it's fanbase?

Kingmoo's comment was correct, Developers will say "We can't put this in, it's not finished yet" and Producers will turn around and say "Well.. we have a deadline, so you need to find an easy way to make it work". Because game development is a pipe-line where you have to have things go as smoothly as possible to hit your dates, even if that means getting a feature in just to fix it later. Does it suck for the consumer to play around with a feature that isn't exactly complete? YES. Does it also suck for the developer when a feature is implemented even though they know it isn't complete? YES.

It's a terrible feeling knowing your product isn't as complete as you want it to be, but you have Producers and product holders breathing down your neck telling you to "Hurry!". But Game Development is always about sacrifices, and no developer will be completely satisfied with their end result. People should be glad that Trion is even attempting to fix the game, and I understand cheating should not be tolerated, but so does Trion.

Bottom-line is.. if you like the game support it, even through the silly times. If you don't... then I have no idea why you're here, maybe you like to read..

The only difference is, that there are shortcuts and there are shortcuts.

The shortcuts they took here, by putting pretty much everything clientside, cannot be fixed anymore. Not now the game is already live!

Like someone already said.... it's All Points Bulletin all over again. That game got litterly killed off by an unstoppable hacker invasion. The devs stood at the sideline, hands in hair and that was it.

Same thing will happen With DEFIANCE.

XBOX360 and PS3 Versions will probably do okay for a while longer, as hacking isn't much of an issue there. But it's pretty safe to say that the PC Version is done for.
And my gut feeling says that TRION management already has written off the PC Version. It will be too expensive and too time consuming to fix.
I mean... they haven't even bothered to put any anti-cheat mechanisms in Place AT ALL!
Says enough really.

FuriousAtTrion
04-23-2013, 02:37 PM
The development /management conversation goes something like this:

Manager: "Will we get pvp in on time?"

Lead Dev: "Only if we put critical data client side"

Manager: "Whatever just get it in"

Btw, this actually made me lol. So thanks for that. My boss said something similar regarding backup, and we got screwed when a few servers went down.

Oh well, I had a e-mail proof and am currently my own boss :o
That taught the higher ups to hire a business major to oversee the IT crowd.

The Govanator
04-23-2013, 02:51 PM
Would like to know this as well. If there is a hack that lets you use two EGO powers, that would be just funny.

he probably used a power, then immediately swapped to a loadout with a different power and used that too. I was thinking baout trying that, but was too lazy to go and swap loadouts back and forth while fighting.

The Govanator
04-23-2013, 03:07 PM
The only difference is, that there are shortcuts and there are shortcuts.

The shortcuts they took here, by putting pretty much everything clientside, cannot be fixed anymore. Not now the game is already live!

Like someone already said.... it's All Points Bulletin all over again. That game got litterly killed off by an unstoppable hacker invasion. The devs stood at the sideline, hands in hair and that was it.

Same thing will happen With DEFIANCE.

XBOX360 and PS3 Versions will probably do okay for a while longer, as hacking isn't much of an issue there. But it's pretty safe to say that the PC Version is done for.
And my gut feeling says that TRION management already has written off the PC Version. It will be too expensive and too time consuming to fix.
I mean... they haven't even bothered to put any anti-cheat mechanisms in Place AT ALL!
Says enough really.

well int he case the PC version isn't fixable from the clientside data they oughta just ban our pc accounts and give us a console copy for whichever platform we choose, in my case I have a ps3 after 360 fried. there is no way in hell i would be stupid enough to buy the game twice, fool me once, not nice, but twice shame on me. I think I'm gonna pirate everything first from now on, warz last year really brought out the intolerance in me from game developers, but ea and activision got the fire started in me for a while. It's smart to check things out first, people are afraid of demos because they are afraid of losing sales, preorder items in most games are not a big deal, but with lack of demos and using those items they swindle a lot of people. most games, you just make a save using a pirated version and then use the save with legit and you don't miss out ont he preorder items, you can also add and/or modify the proper files to get the preorder items on pc games even when you buy late. I am so glad I did not buy the walking dead survival instinct for example, a friendly group of people on the internet helped me to realise it was just a modded version of land of the dead road to fiddler's green filled with more bugs than this game has probably, they provided a helpful demo which was subsequently deleted after giving it an honest 3-4 hours of effort to see if it had any promise. glad i chose god of war over that survival instinct pile of crap, I would have been mad as hell if I bought that crap. those experiences are way too common these days.

I have seen the undamagable pricks in pvp a lot in shadow wars, very few times in structured pvp on the smaller maps btw. but yeah, same deal 3 or 4 people unloading entire clips ont hem barely seeing their effin shield bar budge, ridiculous BS, obvious cheating

Archangel
04-23-2013, 03:08 PM
I wouldn't mind these cheaters or hackers to step online during the live streams and demonstrating these hacks to Greg or Dahanese.

If Greg was in pvp during a live stream while over a 1,000 people are watching and just dies over and again to one shot SMG's and Infectors would definitely get a conversation started.

Hackers out there! Log on during live stream PLEASE! For the LOVE it would be the only time i would want to see you ever!

Natjur
04-23-2013, 03:17 PM
I wouldn't mind these cheaters or hackers to step online during the live streams and demonstrating these hacks to Greg or Dahanese.

If Greg was in pvp during a live stream while over a 1,000 people are watching and just dies over and again to one shot SMG's and Infectors would definitely get a conversation started.

Hackers out there! Log on during live stream PLEASE! For the LOVE it would be the only time i would want to see you ever!

This DID happen, so there latest so called live streams was from there TEST platforms so they don't look so stupid.
(They also use there Xbox LIVE servers as its only the PC version that has all the memory editors)

Also Hit points are not client side, BUT SHIELDS ARE!

I really would like to know what the devs were smoking when they decided to put so much client side!

IGN
04-23-2013, 03:23 PM
I wouldn't mind these cheaters or hackers to step online during the live streams and demonstrating these hacks to Greg or Dahanese.

If Greg was in pvp during a live stream while over a 1,000 people are watching and just dies over and again to one shot SMG's and Infectors would definitely get a conversation started.

Hackers out there! Log on during live stream PLEASE! For the LOVE it would be the only time i would want to see you ever!

ROFL. Knowing Trion that would just result in extreme SMG and Infector nerfs.

Look at how many pages this thread is and there is still no Trion response.

Lisa
04-23-2013, 03:37 PM
This actually explains why I emptied a clip into some guy only to have his shields move like 20%. I did some reading and it seems like its pretty easy to hack in here. Hopefully the banhammer that the gm's said is coming soon will slam these cheaters out of my game.

chaosorb
04-23-2013, 03:40 PM
This actually explains why I emptied a clip into some guy only to have his shields move like 20%. I did some reading and it seems like its pretty easy to hack in here. Hopefully the banhammer that the gm's said is coming soon will slam these cheaters out of my game.

In order for them to swing the banhammer, they need irrefutable proof. And since the dmg data is client side, more likely than not, they will have to rely on SS from players. With the anti-cheat programs out there, they use an algorithm to check the checksums coming from client side and match against server side but since all the dmg stuff is stored client side, that makes it a wee difficult to do :o

baelrusk
04-23-2013, 03:40 PM
Just to note.

I believe that putting things client side helps lessen the load on the servers since they would have to do that for every player simultaneously.

Not for against it. Just thought to add that.

Zewks
04-23-2013, 03:43 PM
Hey guys, dont be so harsh on Trion for this. The multiplayer game genre has only been around for a couple of months, max, so its not like anyone knew something like this would happen. This is also trions first multiplayer game. Im sure they will patch it, and we can count on their 2nd online game not having these issues. I almost with cheaters had been around in the gaming world for years, because at least then, developers would have a lot more experience in knowing how to code ways to fight against hacking and cheating. Oh well, guess in a couple more years, when there are more than 2 online games on the market, and cheating has finally made its way to consoles, we will see a much more robust system against it.

/fingerscrosssed

:P

chaosorb
04-23-2013, 03:44 PM
Just to note.

I believe that putting things client side helps lessen the load on the servers since they would have to do that for every player simultaneously.

Not for against it. Just thought to add that.

There are things you put client side and then there are things YOU DON'T put client side - just sayin....

Zewks
04-23-2013, 03:47 PM
Just to note.

I believe that putting things client side helps lessen the load on the servers since they would have to do that for every player simultaneously.

Not for against it. Just thought to add that.

It would also be faster for banks to leave all the cash at the front door. Customers would be in and out in half the time.
Wonder why they dont do it that way... hmmmm.

chaosorb
04-23-2013, 03:48 PM
It would also be faster for banks to leave all the cash at the front door. Customers would be in and out in half the time.
Wonder why they dont do it that way... hmmmm.

LOL! I like this guy :D

CosmicDebri
04-23-2013, 03:48 PM
Someone early on mentioned something that should have been implemented when they put stats client side..... maybe it can still be put in at this stage..... If you have this stuff client side, the server should be able to check to see if something exceeds a maximum value. It may take a few microseconds more to so, but still....

Something like: if damage(shotgun)> 1000 then bootthemofo (anyone recognize the nod to BASIC there)? Obviously you'd need to know the maximum that could occur with variables such as overpower and hitting the sweet spots, etc.... but it would be a safety net of sorts......

Using hex editors is above a lot of peoples ability, but if 12 year olds can do it, not that hard....

Archangel
04-23-2013, 03:49 PM
Maybe Trion can create a hack software that infects peoples computers when they download it.

It could pull peoples personal information then post it live during live streams.

That would be great. I would watch that for the laughs and people like, "How did they get my picture? Is that my bank account number? Who just hacked me! Grrrrrrr"

sweet justice imo.

The Govanator
04-23-2013, 03:49 PM
This DID happen, so there latest so called live streams was from there TEST platforms so they don't look so stupid.
(They also use there Xbox LIVE servers as its only the PC version that has all the memory editors)

Also Hit points are not client side, BUT SHIELDS ARE!

I really would like to know what the devs were smoking when they decided to put so much client side!

that makes sense, I see shields where I have emptied 2 clips and half of another and they barely lost any damn shield at all. i have however seen occasionally those people's names pop up as dead, but I knew they were cheating it wa so obvious, especially the times I'd see people beside myself unloading into them and them not losing their shields while wiping 3 or 4 of us out all by theirselves. compared to the way most people's shields drop for me, which is not a very large difference between noncheaters but enough to account for perks and shield differences, in the end they all drop or some reasonable damage is made except for those shield cheaters with seemingly infinite shield and instant shield regen after you barely make a scratch in it which is hardly visible unless oyu have a rapid firing weapon to see it constantly barely blipping as if their shields have constant regen at a super high rate.

The Govanator
04-23-2013, 03:49 PM
Maybe Trion can create a hack software that infects peoples computers when they download it.

It could pull peoples personal information then post it live during live streams.

That would be great. I would watch that for the laughs and people like, "How did they get my picture? Is that my bank account number? Who just hacked me! Grrrrrrr"

sweet justice imo.

that's what anon is for

Zewks
04-23-2013, 03:54 PM
Using hex editors is above a lot of peoples ability, but if 12 year olds can do it, not that hard....

Except there are plenty of dumbed down "my mom can use this" GUI front ends for hex editors, or cheat engines, that allow you to simply select the game you want to cheat in, and a checkbox list of values you want to change:
IE:
- Defiance (check)
---- Uber weapon damage (check)
----- Super shield regen (check)
----- 10x vehicle speed (check)

and so on. The "you have to be the guy who created DOS in order to know how to do it" safety net, doesnt actually hold any truth.

The Govanator
04-23-2013, 03:57 PM
Someone early on mentioned something that should have been implemented when they put stats client side..... maybe it can still be put in at this stage..... If you have this stuff client side, the server should be able to check to see if something exceeds a maximum value. It may take a few microseconds more to so, but still....

Something like: if damage(shotgun)> 1000 then bootthemofo (anyone recognize the nod to BASIC there)? Obviously you'd need to know the maximum that could occur with variables such as overpower and hitting the sweet spots, etc.... but it would be a safety net of sorts......

Using hex editors is above a lot of peoples ability, but if 12 year olds can do it, not that hard....

all they need to is check if certain files have been altered when the launcher is fired up, and after patching, and as people log into characters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5 this is totally possible, the tiniest alteration and it reads as a modified and different file. it should be VERY EASY for them to identify modified files clientside, they only need an efficient system in place that checks for the changes at the right times to where people cannot replace them during gameplay to bypass the checks and to where the checks do not interrupt gameplay in any signifigant way. it CAN be done, and SHOULD be done, or else the word class action can usually be motivating. if people have the balls to actually do it.

Zewks
04-23-2013, 04:00 PM
all they need to is check if certain files have been altered when the launcher is fired up, and after patching, and as people log into characters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD5 this is totally possible, the tiniest alteration and it reads as a modified and different file. it should be VERY EASY for them to identify modified files clientside, they only need an efficient system in place that checks for the changes at the right times to where people cannot replace them during gameplay to bypass the checks and to where the checks do not interrupt gameplay in any signifigant way. it CAN be done, and SHOULD be done, or else the word class action can usually be motivating. if people have the balls to actually do it.

Nope. Many cheat engines out there edit the values of these things in MEMORY, which means even after the program checks to see if these files have been altered.

Simply put, client side is a HUGE gaping hole when it comes to security against cheating and hacking.

ten4
04-23-2013, 04:05 PM
Using hex editors is above a lot of peoples ability, but if 12 year olds can do it, not that hard....

Yep, there's even video guides so even the totally inept can understand how to do it.

Trion dun goofed big time and there is no way they will stop it I guess hence why they don't say/do anything about this issue nor reply to hacker report tickets?

"We are behing you, watching" they said as a warning.

Haha, that comment made me laugh. If that's case, why is the same cheater running around for over two weeks then?

CosmicDebri
04-23-2013, 04:14 PM
I remember this is why Punkbuster came into existence so long ago for many fps games...... to do a checksum on files, etc. Not sure if it looks at memory tho.....

Kharnamatic
04-23-2013, 04:34 PM
I'm sorry, but I can't muster any outrage. As they say "all is fair in love and war." True PvPers should and do seek any advantage they can to win. This can be through ingame means, by adopting FOTM OP builds, or otherwise. This is how real life works. The real world is a kill or be killed sort of place. Soldiers, politicians, businessmen, athletes don't stay alive or become successful because they played fair. They used everything in their power to beat the other guy into a pulp. Even that white knight Tour de France-winning cyclist Lance "I work for cancer charities" Armstrong was a lifelong cheater. Sure, in the real world, businessmen/politicians/athletes are less blatant about "cheating" (and youtubing the evidence for bragging rights) but that's because the penalty for doing so in real-life is a lot more harsh. After all what can Trion do to someone who gets caught cheating? Ban them? Cool, so the cheater can just buy another copy for $30 or hack someone's account and run around one-shotting people again.

Fighting cheaters is a losing proposition. The worst penalty Trion can hand out (permaban) doesn't deter any real cheater. Trion should just let things slide and make hacks freely available. I certainly think hacks would make PvE a lot better - I could farm keycodes much easier and get full legendaries.

In fact, cracking down hard on cheaters can lead to worse results. I know in GW2 (Guild Wars 2) they have strict anti-cheating policies, so the pro players mass hack gamers' accounts to take all their gold. They then use that gold to keep a permanent set of top tier consumables up on their characters, giving them a huge advantage in PvP. Half of my friends quit GW2 because they had their accounts hacked. Is this what you want to happen to Defiance? People nicking your accounts, characters and credit card info just because you got into an uproar over a PvP youtube video and Trion recoded their game to prevent hacks (btw PvErs can just ignore PvP and not come into contact with these PvPers).

Zzyn
04-23-2013, 04:34 PM
Hey guys, dont be so harsh on Trion for this. The multiplayer game genre has only been around for a couple of months, max, so its not like anyone knew something like this would happen. This is also trions first multiplayer game.

Um... What? This kind of game has been around for many years. Planetside 1, anyone?

And this is not Trion's first game. Rift has been out a long time, and has a rather positive level of quality, even if the overall story and such bored the crud out of me.



Im sure they will patch it, and we can count on their 2nd online game not having these issues. I almost with cheaters had been around in the gaming world for years, because at least then, developers would have a lot more experience in knowing how to code ways to fight against hacking and cheating. Oh well, guess in a couple more years, when there are more than 2 online games on the market, and cheating has finally made its way to consoles, we will see a much more robust system against it.

/fingerscrosssed

:P

More than two online games on the market? I'm truly confused as to what you are talking about. There are so many online games on the market it's hard not to trip over them.

There is no excuse for not having server side checks for max damage, etc. Checks that not only prevent the dmg amount sent, but also set off an alarm to the GM staff to check that person out ASAP. This is all pretty straitforward to do. I'm amazed it didn't happen before release, but look forward to Trion tightening it up as they go along.

I'm sure they have logs of damage done by who, when, against what mob, etc. They will be caught and banned. I will enjoy their tears, the cheaters.

Lisa
04-23-2013, 04:41 PM
Um... What? This kind of game has been around for many years. Planetside 1, anyone?

And this is not Trion's first game. Rift has been out a long time, and has a rather positive level of quality, even if the overall story and such bored the crud out of me.



More than two online games on the market? I'm truly confused as to what you are talking about. There are so many online games on the market it's hard not to trip over them.

There is no excuse for not having server side checks for max damage, etc. Checks that not only prevent the dmg amount sent, but also set off an alarm to the GM staff to check that person out ASAP. This is all pretty straitforward to do. I'm amazed it didn't happen before release, but look forward to Trion tightening it up as they go along.

I'm sure they have logs of damage done by who, when, against what mob, etc. They will be caught and banned. I will enjoy their tears, the cheaters.

Sarcasm FTW.

LaserJudas
04-23-2013, 05:01 PM
I'm sorry, but I can't muster any outrage. As they say "all is fair in love and war." True PvPers should and do seek any advantage they can to win. This can be through ingame means, by adopting FOTM OP builds, or otherwise. This is how real life works. The real world is a kill or be killed sort of place. Soldiers, politicians, businessmen, athletes don't stay alive or become successful because they played fair. Even that white knight Tour de France-winning cyclist Lance "I work for cancer charities" Armstrong was a lifelong cheater. But what can Trion do to someone who gets caught cheating? Ban them? They used everything in their power to beat the other guy into a pulp. Sure, in the real world, businessmen/politicians/athletes are less blatant about "cheating" (and youtubing the evidence for bragging rights) but that's because the penalty for doing so in real-life is a lot more harsh. Cool, so the cheater can just buy another copy for $30 or hack someone's account and run around one-shotting people again.

Fighting cheaters is a losing proposition. The worst penalty Trion can hand out (permaban) doesn't deter any real cheater. Trion should just let things slide and make hacks freely available. I certainly think hacks would make PvE a lot better - I could farm keycodes much easier and get full legendaries.

In fact, cracking down hard on cheaters can lead to worse results. I know in GW2 (Guild Wars 2) they have strict anti-cheating policies, so the pro players mass hack gamers' accounts to take all their gold. They then use that gold to keep a permanent set of top tier consumables up on their characters, giving them a huge advantage in PvP. Half of my friends quit GW2 because they had their accounts hacked. Is this what you want to happen to Defiance? People nicking your accounts, characters and credit card info just because you got into an uproar over a PvP youtube video and Trion recoded their game to prevent hacks (btw PvErs can just ignore PvP and not come into contact with these PvPers).

Spoken like a true *******, dude.

Couple of things:

1) "A true PVPer" is a lovely little fallacy. That makes what you said automatically invalid.
2) This isn't the real world. This is a game.
3) You're one of those guys who says, "Well, since criminals break laws, why even have them?" but still has locks on his doors and would call the cops if someone stole his car.
4) Stop being one of the people this thread is regarding.

Lisa
04-23-2013, 05:05 PM
I'm sorry, but I can't muster any outrage. As they say "all is fair in love and war." True PvPers should and do seek any advantage they can to win. This can be through ingame means, by adopting FOTM OP builds, or otherwise. This is how real life works. The real world is a kill or be killed sort of place. Soldiers, politicians, businessmen, athletes don't stay alive or become successful because they played fair. Even that white knight Tour de France-winning cyclist Lance "I work for cancer charities" Armstrong was a lifelong cheater. But what can Trion do to someone who gets caught cheating? Ban them? They used everything in their power to beat the other guy into a pulp. Sure, in the real world, businessmen/politicians/athletes are less blatant about "cheating" (and youtubing the evidence for bragging rights) but that's because the penalty for doing so in real-life is a lot more harsh. Cool, so the cheater can just buy another copy for $30 or hack someone's account and run around one-shotting people again.

Fighting cheaters is a losing proposition. The worst penalty Trion can hand out (permaban) doesn't deter any real cheater. Trion should just let things slide and make hacks freely available. I certainly think hacks would make PvE a lot better - I could farm keycodes much easier and get full legendaries.

In fact, cracking down hard on cheaters can lead to worse results. I know in GW2 (Guild Wars 2) they have strict anti-cheating policies, so the pro players mass hack gamers' accounts to take all their gold. They then use that gold to keep a permanent set of top tier consumables up on their characters, giving them a huge advantage in PvP. Half of my friends quit GW2 because they had their accounts hacked. Is this what you want to happen to Defiance? People nicking your accounts, characters and credit card info just because you got into an uproar over a PvP youtube video and Trion recoded their game to prevent hacks (btw PvErs can just ignore PvP and not come into contact with these PvPers).

Wait. Really? So you are ok with cheating because people cheat IRL?

Kharnamatic
04-23-2013, 05:09 PM
Wait. Really? So you are ok with cheating because people cheat IRL?

Yes because playing games should train you for real life. Like how sports makes you more physically fit, and reading science fiction lets you anticipate "what if" scenarios or provide allegories to current day issues (e.g. Defiance tv show is about racial integration). Playing a MMO should teach you how to fit in and succeed in society - which is by "cheating" without being caught ; appearing honorable while milking the system for all its worth.

I'm sorry if that insults your PvE carebear sensibilities. Life is about competition. Life is PvP.

Buruko
04-23-2013, 05:13 PM
I'm sorry, but I can't muster any outrage. As they say "all is fair in love and war." True PvPers should and do seek any advantage they can to win. This can be through ingame means, by adopting FOTM OP builds, or otherwise. This is how real life works. The real world is a kill or be killed sort of place. Soldiers, politicians, businessmen, athletes don't stay alive or become successful because they played fair. Even that white knight Tour de France-winning cyclist Lance "I work for cancer charities" Armstrong was a lifelong cheater. But what can Trion do to someone who gets caught cheating? Ban them? They used everything in their power to beat the other guy into a pulp. Sure, in the real world, businessmen/politicians/athletes are less blatant about "cheating" (and youtubing the evidence for bragging rights) but that's because the penalty for doing so in real-life is a lot more harsh. Cool, so the cheater can just buy another copy for $30 or hack someone's account and run around one-shotting people again.

Fighting cheaters is a losing proposition. The worst penalty Trion can hand out (permaban) doesn't deter any real cheater. Trion should just let things slide and make hacks freely available. I certainly think hacks would make PvE a lot better - I could farm keycodes much easier and get full legendaries.

In fact, cracking down hard on cheaters can lead to worse results. I know in GW2 (Guild Wars 2) they have strict anti-cheating policies, so the pro players mass hack gamers' accounts to take all their gold. They then use that gold to keep a permanent set of top tier consumables up on their characters, giving them a huge advantage in PvP. Half of my friends quit GW2 because they had their accounts hacked. Is this what you want to happen to Defiance? People nicking your accounts, characters and credit card info just because you got into an uproar over a PvP youtube video and Trion recoded their game to prevent hacks (btw PvErs can just ignore PvP and not come into contact with these PvPers).

Isn't there suppose to be a /sarcasm in there some where? Or are you truly that delusional?

Shleg
04-23-2013, 05:18 PM
i too would love to see an official response to this issue.

Moose Of Woe
04-23-2013, 05:19 PM
Life is about competition. Life is PvP.

I swear if I go outside one morning and see people bunny hopping around.....

Shleg
04-23-2013, 05:21 PM
Yes because playing games should train you for real life. Like how sports makes you more physically fit, and reading science fiction lets you anticipate "what if" scenarios or provide allegories to current day issues (e.g. Defiance tv show is about racial integration). Playing a MMO should teach you how to fit in and succeed in society - which is by "cheating" without being caught ; appearing honorable while milking the system for all its worth.

I'm sorry if that insults your PvE carebear sensibilities. Life is about competition. Life is PvP.

oh look. 4chan plays defiance

Trekner
04-23-2013, 05:29 PM
I swear if I go outside one morning and see people bunny hopping around.....

Lol that made my night, now i can go to bed with a smile!

Beldhan
04-23-2013, 05:37 PM
hacker exist that a fact, it's also a fact that trion ban them (temporaly or not).
anyway, you must keep in mind that: any game in the past was hacked at some point, it's bound to happend, i don't defend it, i simply know that when i will play a game people will cheat, hack.... why? because they want to screw the other and feel the power they can't get by them own power...

sad sad sad... but it's part of the human nature, like complaining *grins*

DustOfDeath
04-23-2013, 05:41 PM
lol ..."PvE carebear sensibilities."

Talks a PVP carebear with a lust for blood and violence.

PVE is more like real life competition then PVP - you strive to be ahead of others, to have more money and fave and better items..
PVP is more similar to murders, wars, concentration camps and mindless slaughtering.

Dnomyar
04-23-2013, 05:41 PM
.... Dunno what I was thinking...

Was hoping for a game without ******ed cheaters/hackers or people who say its trions fault for faulty coding.

Saw a hacker today doing millions of damage on the Arkfall event...
If nothing is done about crap like than I guess I will soon drop this game.. just like many other games where I can't do something about hackers and ******ed people.

Nithryok
04-23-2013, 06:04 PM
This will be just like rift, lot's of people cheat, no response from trion... 2 weeks later more people cheating still no response... 1 month later, trion shows up with a massive ban hammer for 30k account's. All are happy again.

I cannot say for a 100% that I have seen a hacker yet in PC. I have ran into 1-2 people who may have been but, they could of had godlike reflexes that can turn around and SMG you to the head soon as you fire while in cloak and you die in 1.5 seconds. I'm sure some people are good enough to do this, but for the most part I would think they are not playing legit.

But it could of just been that they were going to turn around any ways at that time and I just happen to be there, who knows...

I know I have done it in CoD going 40-0 best game of my life and get accused of hacking. Sometimes luck is on your side.

Doctor_Atomic
04-23-2013, 06:50 PM
Word is spreading, I just found an article about it on a MMO news site:

http://mmo.catacombs.com/showthread.php/2552-Defiance-Hacking-Trion-is-alleged-to-be-stupid-and-it-might-be-true.

IGN
04-23-2013, 07:08 PM
There is also an article about this very issue on the Steam forums, as well as IGN, and no matter what people say - not ALL press is good press.

Schwa
04-23-2013, 07:39 PM
There's a problem, okay.

My issue with the Other Trion isn't that there's a problem, it's that they're sitting on their *** while the house burns. Rift had a similar crushing bug on launch day, and it was fixed within a day or two. (Teleportation)

Then we had a larger issue with hackers bypassing login, and they had an entirely new system in place (coinlock) within a week while they figured out the technical cause.

Natjur
04-23-2013, 07:59 PM
They take too long to fix it, the game will be not worth fixing as most will have moved on to other games to look for good PVP.

CosmicDebri
04-23-2013, 09:38 PM
Spoken like a true *******, dude.

Couple of things:

1) "A true PVPer" is a lovely little fallacy. That makes what you said automatically invalid.
2) This isn't the real world. This is a game.
3) You're one of those guys who says, "Well, since criminals break laws, why even have them?" but still has locks on his doors and would call the cops if someone stole his car.
4) Stop being one of the people this thread is regarding.

+10..... thanks for saying it for the rest of us........

A 'true pvper' would be one who wants to test himself against others. Someone who cheats is a weak individual who has low or no self esteem and likes playing with themselves......

I did a little searching on the net and found some cheater forums where they discuss this crap. They like to brag about how long their bans are..... apparently Trion is hitting them with 24 hour ban, then 48, 72 and permanent. Couple kids happy they are at the 72 hour limit already...... pretty sad......

Jeronan
04-23-2013, 11:51 PM
There's a problem, okay.

My issue with the Other Trion isn't that there's a problem, it's that they're sitting on their *** while the house burns. Rift had a similar crushing bug on launch day, and it was fixed within a day or two. (Teleportation)

Then we had a larger issue with hackers bypassing login, and they had an entirely new system in place (coinlock) within a week while they figured out the technical cause.

Different studio/location... different Developers. At least the RIFT Developers were competent.

It's pretty obvious we are not dealing With the same People here on DEFIANCE. Seeing the long server downtimes With several rollbacks, patches and hotfixes that mess up more than they fix, etc.

I mean.... if they can't even properly patch their servers.... what are the odds they can do anything against the cheaters? Especially since almost everything is handled clientside and launching the PC Version of the game With ZERO anti-cheat messures in place. /shrug

This hacking has been going on for weeks now since the game launched and not a single Word from TRION! Instead they have been deleting these threads left and right as fast as they can.

I am actually still suprised this one is still up and not downright deleted like all the others.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 12:22 AM
WoW still has hackers. SWTOR has hackers. EVE has a ton of hackers. LOTR has hackers. GW2 has hackers. TSW has hackers. oh wait ever damn MMO has hackers guess what it happens get over it people. Hey OP get a life if you dont like Defiance because some dirt bag wants to hack because he has no skills. He cant stand to lose. That is the only reason why they hack they are COWARDS!!! with no game skills at all. Trust me Trion is on it. But why in hell will they tell us what they are doing. They don't have to tell us how they are dealing with hackers. After all why should they show their hand when they don't owe us that. My god I never seen so much negativity for a game in my life. IT IS JUST A GAME PPL!!!

I can say with out a doubt that people get paid to continue to put Defiance down. With out Fail these ppl do get paid. It is the only explanation.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 12:27 AM
No matter who the hell else wants to put this game down. Guess what it is not going anywhere. This game will still be around for a long time to come. There is a ton of people still enjoying this game no matter what!!!! So why don't you negative posters get this threw your head. You are not making people leave the game. Only thing you are doing is throwing a tantrum and no buddy cares. I will make it my personal mission to defend Defiance no matter what!! That is how much I love this game and no one will ever take that away from me.

TYVM Trion Worlds for a AWESOME game!!!!!!!

Ozzalin
04-24-2013, 12:34 AM
No matter who the hell else wants to put this game down. Guess what it is not going anywhere. This game will still be around for a long time to come. There is a ton of people still enjoying this game no matter what!!!! So why don't you negative posters get this threw your head. You are not making people leave the game. Only thing you are doing is throwing a tantrum and no buddy cares. I will make it my personal mission to defend Defiance no matter what!! That is how much I love this game and no one will ever take that away from me.

TYVM Trion Worlds for a AWESOME game!!!!!!!

Don't ever say that my friend.
I've seen games totally destroyed by the community in less time needed to say "Final Fantasy 14!"
When you get ripped off, lied to, and not getting anywhere...
Sometimes, trust me, when fed up, a community can bring down any games, anywhere, in 2 seconds.

r3dl4nce
04-24-2013, 12:34 AM
Every game has hackers, from the "console god mode" of single players to radar/aim/damage/invuln hacking on MMOs...
What's the news?
Publisher will ban the hackers, devs will change some mechanics of the game to make the hacking harder, hackers will find new ways to hack the game, publisher will ban the hackers, devs will change.... and so on...

The problem is not with the game, the code, the software, the devs and so on

The problem is in the mind of the people. They wanna WIN in a GAME born to have FUN. You can only have fun in a game if you win? Go play chess with a 1-year old child. Can't people have a working brain to understand what is FUN, what really is a GAME (NOT alway a competition, and winning or losing, in a MMO, won't change ANYTHING).
Until we can have some mind surgery to change the brain of all these stupid people, hacking in MMO will always be there.

Jeronan
04-24-2013, 12:36 AM
WoW still has hackers. SWTOR has hackers. EVE has a ton of hackers. LOTR has hackers. GW2 has hackers. TSW has hackers. oh wait ever damn MMO has hackers guess what it happens get over it people. Hey OP get a life if you dont like Defiance because some dirt bag wants to hack because he has no skills. He cant stand to lose. That is the only reason why they hack they are COWARDS!!! with no game skills at all. Trust me Trion is on it. But why in hell will they tell us what they are doing. They don't have to tell us how they are dealing with hackers. After all why should they show their hand when they don't owe us that. My god I never seen so much negativity for a game in my life. IT IS JUST A GAME PPL!!!

I can say with out a doubt that people get paid to continue to put Defiance down. With out Fail these ppl do get paid. It is the only explanation.

What kind of hacks?

It's a world of difference having some MMO bot software automating some characters farming gold, then People outright hacking and able to turn themselves into unkillable gods oneshotting everything and everyone!

I can say without doubt this is not possible in WoW, EVE Online, LOTRO, GW2 and TSW. As most stuff in those games is actually handled server side With anti-cheat messures in place. As it should be.

And really! Because we bring this up? We get paid to bring this game Down? lol. Just lol.

But please.... og stick Your heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine, hacking doesn't exist! It's all Our imagination right.

Well soon..... all you will have left is imaginary players in Your mind and be playing on empty servers.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 12:46 AM
Don't ever say that my friend.
I've seen games totally destroyed by the community in less time needed to say "Final Fantasy 14!"
When you get ripped off, lied to, and not getting anywhere...
Sometimes, trust me, when fed up, a community can bring down any games, anywhere, in 2 seconds.

I do dare say it. True fans of the game and show will not let it go anywhere and no matter how much negativity is given to the game is just more power to the course.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 12:47 AM
What kind of hacks?

It's a world of difference having some MMO bot software automating some characters farming gold, then People outright hacking and able to turn themselves into unkillable gods oneshotting everything and everyone!

I can say without doubt this is not possible in WoW, EVE Online, LOTRO, GW2 and TSW. As most stuff in those games is actually handled server side With anti-cheat messures in place. As it should be.

And really! Because we bring this up? We get paid to bring this game Down? lol. Just lol.

But please.... og stick Your heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine, hacking doesn't exist! It's all Our imagination right.

Well soon..... all you will have left is imaginary players in Your mind and be playing on empty servers.

If this is soooooooooooo troubling to you then why do you even post or play or do anything for the game?

Isturi
04-24-2013, 12:47 AM
every game has hackers, from the "console god mode" of single players to radar/aim/damage/invuln hacking on mmos...
What's the news?
Publisher will ban the hackers, devs will change some mechanics of the game to make the hacking harder, hackers will find new ways to hack the game, publisher will ban the hackers, devs will change.... And so on...

The problem is not with the game, the code, the software, the devs and so on

the problem is in the mind of the people. They wanna win in a game born to have fun. You can only have fun in a game if you win? Go play chess with a 1-year old child. Can't people have a working brain to understand what is fun, what really is a game (not alway a competition, and winning or losing, in a mmo, won't change anything).
Until we can have some mind surgery to change the brain of all these stupid people, hacking in mmo will always be there.

qft tyvm!!!

Neralyte
04-24-2013, 01:41 AM
Please Trion, for the sake of my sanity and that of everyone else that's enjoying combat, DO NOT make damage, hit count etc server side. Client side is great! I love it! I can live with some ****** bag hackers now and then, I can deal with not always coming out on top because someone else thinks they're going to get away with cheating. Hell, at this point I get more annoyed with griefers than hackers.

And here's my reasoning:
See, with all these things handled client side, I get to play a crisp and clean, and very entertaining TPS. Combat feels great, hits count and I don't have to worry about accommodating for latency. Previous games in this genre have done everything server side with the all to obvious excuse of stopping hacking, and they sucked. Not the games themselves, they were great, but combat was extremely tedious and frustrating without ever feeling that fun.

So we go through some teething, with new procedures being put in place to minimize hacking, which will always be an issue. But that's ok, because we decide who we play with and how. I can quit a pvp match and go into a new one if I see a hacker. I'm still going to get some credit in an arkfall and there will always be plenty of others without hackers. All the while, I'll simply report them and move on my way... And I will do this happily, because this game is fun, the combat is fun, and I'm not being put at a major disadvantage, all because these calculations are done on the client side. Thank you Trion.

atlantix
04-24-2013, 01:44 AM
Please Trion, for the sake of my sanity and that of everyone else that's enjoying combat, DO NOT make damage, hit count etc server side. Client side is great! I love it! I can live with some ****** bag hackers now and then, I can deal with not always coming out on top because someone else thinks they're going to get away with cheating. Hell, at this point I get more annoyed with griefers than hackers.

And here's my reasoning:
See, with all these things handled client side, I get to play a crisp and clean, and very entertaining TPS. Combat feels great, hits count and I don't have to worry about accommodating for latency. Previous games in this genre have done everything server side with the all to obvious excuse of stopping hacking, and they sucked. Not the games themselves, they were great, but combat was extremely tedious and frustrating without ever feeling that fun.

So we go through some teething, with new procedures being put in place to minimize hacking, which will always be an issue. But that's ok, because we decide who we play with and how. I can quit a pvp match and go into a new one if I see a hacker. I'm still going to get some credit in an arkfall and there will always be plenty of others without hackers. All the while, I'll simply report them and move on my way... And I will do this happily, because this game is fun, the combat is fun, and I'm not being put at a major disadvantage, all because these calculations are done on the client side. Thank you Trion.


lol first message on board trying to defend client sided weapon damage info..
with a lame excuse or latency blah blah..
i think you have no idea about how multiplayer gaming works..

Technodude
04-24-2013, 01:55 AM
WoW still has hackers. SWTOR has hackers. EVE has a ton of hackers. LOTR has hackers. GW2 has hackers. TSW has hackers. oh wait ever damn MMO has hackers guess what it happens get over it people. Hey OP get a life if you dont like Defiance because some dirt bag wants to hack because he has no skills. He cant stand to lose. That is the only reason why they hack they are COWARDS!!! with no game skills at all. Trust me Trion is on it. But why in hell will they tell us what they are doing. They don't have to tell us how they are dealing with hackers. After all why should they show their hand when they don't owe us that. My god I never seen so much negativity for a game in my life. IT IS JUST A GAME PPL!!!

I can say with out a doubt that people get paid to continue to put Defiance down. With out Fail these ppl do get paid. It is the only explanation.

Stop trolling please.

We are not playing WOW or SWTOR. This is forums for Defiance and we are discussing issues of hacking related to Defiance. Put your tin foil hat back on and go sit in the corner.


No matter who the hell else wants to put this game down. Guess what it is not going anywhere. This game will still be around for a long time to come. There is a ton of people still enjoying this game no matter what!!!! So why don't you negative posters get this threw your head. You are not making people leave the game. Only thing you are doing is throwing a tantrum and no buddy cares. I will make it my personal mission to defend Defiance no matter what!! That is how much I love this game and no one will ever take that away from me.

TYVM Trion Worlds for a AWESOME game!!!!!!!

Ok definitely a troll.

You have to be. After posting that little nugget of wisdom in caps 'IT IS JUST A GAME PEOPLE'.... you post this ..lol. ;)

SsTiNgEr77
04-24-2013, 01:56 AM
Trion is failing so hard on this. I am never purchasing another game by them again. PC game has been plagued with **** since release. "Daredevil" my @$$.

Tryskell
04-24-2013, 02:23 AM
You can only see what happens to DayZ and APB:Reloaded to get an overview why you should't use client side stats for a multiplayer game.

The story of "latency" and "there are cheaters IRL, so deal with it" are just mean trolls. One motto for you : "your liberty stops where others' begins".

@Kharnamatic, did you ever think to do a psychotherapy ?

Kharnamatic
04-24-2013, 02:43 AM
You can only see what happens to DayZ and APB:Reloaded to get an overview why you should't use client side stats for a multiplayer game.

Yep, and both those games went F2P, so having hackers can bring about a good outcome for consumers. It will allow my friends to come join me ingame, since right now they are balking at the $60 entry fee but will jump at the opportunity to play this game for free.

Icewave
04-24-2013, 03:00 AM
lol first message on board trying to defend client sided weapon damage info..
with a lame excuse or latency blah blah..
i think you have no idea about how multiplayer gaming works..

i agree that client side weapon hit detection needs & info to stay its a good system so long as its done right, otherwise people outside of the US/EU central server location would be at major disadvantage.

However, as it stands, the server is currently doing absolutely no checking what so ever... and that needs to change, the server needs to double check the clients info, and check the clients damage - only then should that data be sent back to the client. Sure, on the hackers screen the guy would die... but [latency time] ms later he would pop alive again in the same spot, because the server didn't agree...

I'm shocked and amazed that this was allowed to happen in the first place, Trion know better, we know they did [Rift], so what the hell went wrong?!

Jeronan
04-24-2013, 03:19 AM
i agree that client side weapon hit detection needs & info to stay its a good system so long as its done right, otherwise people outside of the US/EU central server location would be at major disadvantage.

However, as it stands, the server is currently doing absolutely no checking what so ever... and that needs to change, the server needs to double check the clients info, and check the clients damage - only then should that data be sent back to the client. Sure, on the hackers screen the guy would die... but [latency time] ms later he would pop alive again in the same spot, because the server didn't agree...

I'm shocked and amazed that this was allowed to happen in the first place, Trion know better, we know they did [Rift], so what the hell went wrong?!

What you say will cause even more latency problems and is more taxing for the server as well.

As there is practically no progression in this game and everything pretty much flat values... there is just ZERO excuse to have stuff like Damage, Speed, Shield, etc Client side.

The server knows Your load out. So it knows what EGO Power, traits, weapons and Shield you have slotted an currently using.
So it should know Your damage per shot, Your Shield value and Health and bonusses from traits.
This is extremely easy Processing and Maths to handle server side!

I mean come on! MMORPG's have been handling this stuff server side for years and had no problems With latency.
And in those MMORPG's you got Heavy progression, With the server need to keep track of loads of different stats, mitigation values, damage values, crit values, attack speed values, etc
And then on top of that when grouping it also need to calculate buffs and debuffs as well.

I think their Whole game engine is just utter crap and they were forced to put everything clientside to make the game even work! And yet they still have performance and server stability issues lol.
It's just terrible what is happening here.

With the Budget they had, they should have just licensed a decent engine, like Unreal Engine or Crytek. Fully optimized for Online FPS games and full build-in support for all existing platforms!

Sure it would have cut in their initial profit... but the game would have been stable, decent, less worry for hacks... bottomline... the game would have more longterm potential... so longterm it would have paid off.

Now it's all a huge Waste and turning into a dissaster. :(

FriendlyStranger
04-24-2013, 03:30 AM
Yep, and both those games went F2P, so having hackers can bring about a good outcome for consumers. It will allow my friends to come join me ingame, since right now they are balking at the $60 entry fee but will jump at the opportunity to play this game for free.

DayZ isn't a game, it's a mod, and you never had to pay for it. >__>

Icewave
04-24-2013, 04:15 AM
What you say will cause even more latency problems and is more taxing for the server as well.

As there is practically no progression in this game and everything pretty much flat values... there is just ZERO excuse to have stuff like Damage, Speed, Shield, etc Client side.

The server knows Your load out. So it knows what EGO Power, traits, weapons and Shield you have slotted an currently using.
So it should know Your damage per shot, Your Shield value and Health and bonusses from traits.
This is extremely easy Processing and Maths to handle server side!

I mean come on! MMORPG's have been handling this stuff server side for years and had no problems With latency.
And in those MMORPG's you got Heavy progression, With the server need to keep track of loads of different stats, mitigation values, damage values, crit values, attack speed values, etc
And then on top of that when grouping it also need to calculate buffs and debuffs as well.

I think their Whole game engine is just utter crap and they were forced to put everything clientside to make the game even work! And yet they still have performance and server stability issues lol.
It's just terrible what is happening here.

With the Budget they had, they should have just licensed a decent engine, like Unreal Engine or Crytek. Fully optimized for Online FPS games and full build-in support for all existing platforms!

Sure it would have cut in their initial profit... but the game would have been stable, decent, less worry for hacks... bottomline... the game would have more longterm potential... so longterm it would have paid off.

Now it's all a huge Waste and turning into a dissaster. :(

You don't have a clue, i wont bother arguing your many incorrect comments, but i will say my suggestion will cause no latency issues what so ever, and minimal server overhead, its simply a correction, if no correction is needed then no packet is sent, latency plays no part in this and only hackers will see the corrections.

FPS engines like Unreal, CryEngine and Frostbite, they all do client side hit detection, please check your facts, less potential for hacks? hah... all the existing hacks for these engines would work...

Telemachus
04-24-2013, 04:23 AM
I thought the old saying about these types of games was "never place the client in the hands of the enemy " or something to that effect ?

Jeronan
04-24-2013, 04:41 AM
You don't have a clue, i wont bother arguing your many incorrect comments, but i will say my suggestion will cause no latency issues what so ever, and minimal server overhead, its simply a correction, if no correction is needed then no packet is sent, latency plays no part in this and only hackers will see the corrections.

FPS engines like Unreal, CryEngine and Frostbite, they all do client side hit detection, please check your facts, less potential for hacks? hah... all the existing hacks for these engines would work...

You talk about Hit detection, which is a completely different matter. Worst case they can do With that is creating aimbots. Which suck too ofcourse. But can be detected.
That is far less of an issue, then having People altering damage, Shield, Powers and speed values!

I rather encounter someone With an aimbot, as With decent aiming skills you can still win from... then someone that has hacked themselves into unkillable oneshotting gods!

Arramakaian
04-24-2013, 04:42 AM
Thanks for reminding me about one of the reasons why I all but stopped PC gaming.

Yes, there is cheating on consoles, but it's not nearly as common, easy and rampant as it is on PCs.

Aurora Skye
04-24-2013, 05:04 AM
Hey guys, dont be so harsh on Trion for this. The multiplayer game genre has only been around for a couple of months, max, so its not like anyone knew something like this would happen. This is also trions first multiplayer game. Im sure they will patch it, and we can count on their 2nd online game not having these issues. I almost with cheaters had been around in the gaming world for years, because at least then, developers would have a lot more experience in knowing how to code ways to fight against hacking and cheating. Oh well, guess in a couple more years, when there are more than 2 online games on the market, and cheating has finally made its way to consoles, we will see a much more robust system against it.

/fingerscrosssed

:P


+10 for lolz, well played, sir.

IGN
04-24-2013, 05:26 AM
Thanks for reminding me about one of the reasons why I all but stopped PC gaming.

Yes, there is cheating on consoles, but it's not nearly as common, easy and rampant as it is on PCs.

Actually of you do some searching, you will see that there are already console hacks as well.

DefiantFew
04-24-2013, 06:51 AM
You can only see what happens to DayZ and APB:Reloaded to get an overview why you should't use client side stats for a multiplayer game.

The story of "latency" and "there are cheaters IRL, so deal with it" are just mean trolls. One motto for you : "your liberty stops where others' begins".



APB had to go F2P to survive because of all the hackers. I left and actually had a few friends not buy the game because I warned them off it.

I am ashamed to say that I did the same thing when I "recommended" Defiance on steam yesterday. I listed that it's full of hackers and bugs, and already have 4 posts on my wall from friends thanking me for saving them $60.

Too bad Trion. I really enjoyed the first few days of Defiance, but with the nonsense server downtime, the ridiculous hacks, and the terrible patches, it is no longer a game I enjoy.

I already had Steam refund me my DLC pack pack purchase. I don't want to reward you for incompetence.

I will most likely still play, just to make up my initial investment, but I am staying far, far away from PvP.

Dagbiker
04-24-2013, 06:59 AM
Considering that this is a port of a console game, I can see how this happened. Perhaps if they, I dont know, did a check

const weapon_flamethrowerOfTheAxe = 300;

if ( weapon dammage > weapon_flamethrowerOfTheAxe )
{
file a report;
and dammage = weapon_flamethrowerOfTheAxe;
}

but Im no programer.

Lisa
04-24-2013, 07:31 AM
So can we get some sort of official dev response? Anything? Even something along the lines "We know and are working on it" would be better than complete and utter silence.

AzzerUK
04-24-2013, 07:48 AM
Considering that this is a port of a console game, I can see how this happened. Perhaps if they, I dont know, did a check
const weapon_flamethrowerOfTheAxe = 300;

You're right that checking for the damage the client is telling the server being "too high" (have to also consider crit locations, crit multiplier, and different enemies having different damage resistance), on the server-side, and then flagging it as a cheat should be easy...

... on the other hand, if they're going to CHECK that damage server side, then they might as well PUT the damage server side in the first place and the client has one less thing to deal with while the server is dealing with the same number of things! :D

Lisa
04-24-2013, 08:24 AM
Planetside 2 has damage server side, and can also handle more people on screen at once. It was also in development for a lot less time than Defiance.

I am not seeing a problem here. If Sony can do it, why can't Trion?

alienoid
04-24-2013, 08:36 AM
Planetside 2 has damage server side, and can also handle more people on screen at once. It was also in development for a lot less time than Defiance.

I am not seeing a problem here. If Sony can do it, why can't Trion?

Because Planetside is a PvP centric game and not Defiance ? PvP is niche in this game, I've yet to meet a hacker in PvE. Not saying there are not but I've not met one in 250 hours or, if I did, that didn't noticeably impacted me.

AzzerUK
04-24-2013, 09:04 AM
Because Planetside is a PvP centric game and not Defiance ? PvP is niche in this game, I've yet to meet a hacker in PvE. Not saying there are not but I've not met one in 250 hours or, if I did, that didn't noticeably impacted me.

That's true. I've seen a few at Arkfalls, and I've seen a few in co-op missions I've been in - but hell, the ones in co-op missions just meant we got the co-op mission done much faster, and the ones at Arkfalls meant I got my keycodes even quicker. If anything, they were HELPING, not HINDERING.

But I PVP fairly often (maybe a couple of matches a night), and I do see them now and then, and it's there, in PVP, where it's REALLY REALLY ANNOYING.

MikeAndIke
04-24-2013, 09:42 AM
I have mixed feelings about this because a lot of my clan mates use the damage hacks to aid them a bit. Nothing extreme, but enough to make the game a bit easier.

I wonder how Trion will catch people the only bump up their minimum damage to be closer to their max, as well as give themselves unlimited ammo so they don't have to reload.

Have a few in my clan that have been using these since launch, and they are still not banned, while some of the ones that made their weapons do damage over their maximum have been hit with a 24 hour ban.

Remag Div
04-24-2013, 09:56 AM
I have mixed feelings about this because a lot of my clan mates use the damage hacks to aid them a bit. Nothing extreme, but enough to make the game a bit easier.

I wonder how Trion will catch people the only bump up their minimum damage to be closer to their max, as well as give themselves unlimited ammo so they don't have to reload.

Have a few in my clan that have been using these since launch, and they are still not banned, while some of the ones that made their weapons do damage over their maximum have been hit with a 24 hour ban.

So you have mixed feelings cheating the game just cause you have clanmates who do it?

This is Trion's fault but this stuff needs to be fixed last week. I don't care if someone only adds 1% extra damage to their gun, it still gives an unfair advantage and one of the many reasons why PvP is currently a joke.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 10:00 AM
So can we get some sort of official dev response? Anything? Even something along the lines "We know and are working on it" would be better than complete and utter silence.

I have yet to come across any hackers. As many in the forums has stated. So it is very possible that this thread is just yet another poorly attempt to discredit Trion and the game. It is not working at all. These so called hackers are like little boys starving for attention. "Look at me see I can stand on my head." Sad and pathetic actually.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 10:04 AM
So you have mixed feelings cheating the game just cause you have clanmates who do it?

This is Trion's fault but this stuff needs to be fixed last week. I don't care if someone only adds 1% extra damage to their gun, it still gives an unfair advantage and one of the many reasons why PvP is currently a joke.

How is it Trions fault? People will find a way to cheat and hack no matter what. Is it WoW fault that they have hackers? Is it EVE fault that they have hackers? Is it LOTR fault that they have hackers? Is it EVERY MMO out there fault that they have hackers.

Greyworm
04-24-2013, 10:06 AM
I have yet to come across any hackers. As many in the forums has stated. So it is very possible that this thread is just yet another poorly attempt to discredit Trion and the game. It is not working at all. These so called hackers are like little boys starving for attention. "Look at me see I can stand on my head." Sad and pathetic actually.A lot of people seem to have this "I've never seen it so it doesn't exist" attitude. Trion are stupid for having client side damage - that's not up for debate and it's not an attempt to discredit them. It's just a fact.

Can't enjoy Arkfalls when everything dies in one second from a guy running around in a circle with an SMG one-shotting everything and you can't enjoy PvP when you die from a stray bullet from across the map either. Until they start handing out permanent bans to these cheaters it's just going to get worse and worse as more people do it.

MikeAndIke
04-24-2013, 10:08 AM
So you have mixed feelings cheating the game just cause you have clanmates who do it?

This is Trion's fault but this stuff needs to be fixed last week. I don't care if someone only adds 1% extra damage to their gun, it still gives an unfair advantage and one of the many reasons why PvP is currently a joke.

Lol yeah, I know. But I would hate to lose some of these people to a ban. We chat a lot on TS and run a lot of co-op's together. Plus completing some of the pursuits is a lot more viable when someone on your team no longer has to reload.

I think Trion should fix this issue and give everyone that took advantage of it a clean slate. After all making damage client side doesn't exactly discourage cheating.

Shleg
04-24-2013, 10:08 AM
I have mixed feelings about this because a lot of my clan mates use the damage hacks to aid them a bit. Nothing extreme, but enough to make the game a bit easier.

I wonder how Trion will catch people the only bump up their minimum damage to be closer to their max, as well as give themselves unlimited ammo so they don't have to reload.

Have a few in my clan that have been using these since launch, and they are still not banned, while some of the ones that made their weapons do damage over their maximum have been hit with a 24 hour ban.

hehe i wonder how your clanmates will feel about you outing them to trion?

Isturi
04-24-2013, 10:08 AM
A lot of people seem to have this "I've never seen it so it doesn't exist" attitude. Trion are stupid for having client side damage - that's not up for debate and it's not an attempt to discredit them. It's just a fact.

Can't enjoy Arkfalls when everything dies in one second from a guy running around in a circle with an SMG one-shotting everything and you can't enjoy PvP when you die from a stray bullet from across the map either. Until they start handing out permanent bans to these cheaters it's just going to get worse and worse as more people do it.

Again I have yet to experience this. And I have been playing since beta and STILL loving the game.:cool:

jnt
04-24-2013, 10:09 AM
hehe i wonder how your clanmates will feel about you outing them to trion?

He might get yelled at once they get back from their 24 hour bans.

Greyworm
04-24-2013, 10:11 AM
Again I have yet to experience this. And I have been playing since beta and STILL loving the game.:cool:Congratulations on having yet to experience it; that must take a lot of effort to do. Regardless I too love the game... but like I said it's not fun when cheaters run rampant. It's Trions fault for having no anti-cheat system and for client-side statistics.

MikeAndIke
04-24-2013, 10:12 AM
hehe i wonder how your clanmates will feel about you outing them to trion?

Well I didn't really out anyone, and I'm posting from a public library while doing my research here. Just got bored of reading and decided to come check out these forums.

Shleg
04-24-2013, 10:13 AM
Again I have yet to experience this. And I have been playing since beta and STILL loving the game.:cool:

good news everybody! he hasn't experienced it, so this is obviously false. we can go ahead and close the thread and go back to playing now! only one problem. we apparently cant like the game, AND expect improvements. that would just be inconceivable.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 10:13 AM
Truthfully I wish Trion would shut the game down for a few day or a week or whatever fix all that they need to fix and come back bigger and better then before. I would be more then happy to wait for them to fix these so called problems. I am sure other true fans of the game will not mind waiting also. It would say the least get rid of some of the so called hackers because then they would not receive the attention that they are so desperately trying to get.

MikeAndIke
04-24-2013, 10:14 AM
Again I have yet to experience this. And I have been playing since beta and STILL loving the game.:cool:

Umm. Did you even bother looking at the links provided by the OP? You also probably already experienced it many times and didn't realize it.

I am loving the game as well, but I don't PvP much and mostly run missions/arkfalls with my clan.

I just don't see the incentive to PvP when you can run a co-op mission and have more fun while getting better rewards.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 10:23 AM
Umm. Did you even bother looking at the links provided by the OP? You also probably already experienced it many times and didn't realize it.

I am loving the game as well, but I don't PvP much and mostly run missions/arkfalls with my clan.

I just don't see the incentive to PvP when you can run a co-op mission and have more fun while getting better rewards.

Nope did not look at the link for one I don't trust these links and people who click on them maybe sorry they did if their accounts get hacked. And trust me I am a MMO vet I can spot a hack a mile away. Played WoW and spot the hacks in BG and played SWTOR and spotted the hacks in their verson of BG what was it WG? lol I forget. Yes it is a very old program that people can use called speed hacking. Truthfully theys people that do hack do not know the true meaning of having skills. And are not real players of the game.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 10:24 AM
Well I didn't really out anyone, and I'm posting from a public library while doing my research here. Just got bored of reading and decided to come check out these forums.

LMAO you just told us that you are at the library which means you are masking your IP lol Oldest trick in the book.

Dzenith
04-24-2013, 10:26 AM
The simplist fix would probably be to add some data validation code to the information coming from the client to check for numbers out of a valid range and then disconnect them (and log account information for later bans). They could still memory hack to always do the maximum allowable damage, but at least there wouldn't be the one shot nonsense.

Shleg
04-24-2013, 10:31 AM
LMAO you just told us that you are at the library which means you are masking your IP lol Oldest trick in the book.

ummm no. that isnt what it means. it means that whatever IP he is using, is public. BUT he logged in here with an email address/username, probably the same one his defiance account uses. why would they bother with his IP when all they gotta do, is associate his email address with a clan, and then begin examining members of said clan for suspicious activity? not exactly rocket science, and it probably doesnt sound as cool as tracking someone down with reverse Ip lookup. but much more efficient, and harder to mess up :)

jnt
04-24-2013, 10:33 AM
ummm no. that isnt what it means. it means that whatever IP he is using, is public. BUT he logged in here with an email address/username, probably the same one his defiance account uses. why would they bother with his IP when all they gotta do, is associate his email address with a clan, and then begin examining members of said clan for suspicious activity? not exactly rocket science, and it probably doesnt sound as cool as tracking someone down with reverse Ip lookup. but much more efficient, and harder to mess up :)

So far the best part of the whole discussion for me is how people think anyone is going to get disciplined in game for something someone else said on the forum.

Shleg
04-24-2013, 11:01 AM
So far the best part of the whole discussion for me is how people think anyone is going to get disciplined in game for something someone else said on the forum.

wasnt actually hoping for recrimination, just pointing out that the dude has watched one too many tv series in which rooms full of oversized monitors show really cool graphic images of the hero defending the network from invasion attempts by villainous hackers.

wanna know what knowing the IP address of a library computer is worth? nothing. that, and 5 bucks might buy you a coffee at starbucks. and just for future reference : IP masking ISNT the oldest trick in the book. unplugging the network cable is.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 11:01 AM
ummm no. that isnt what it means. it means that whatever IP he is using, is public. BUT he logged in here with an email address/username, probably the same one his defiance account uses. why would they bother with his IP when all they gotta do, is associate his email address with a clan, and then begin examining members of said clan for suspicious activity? not exactly rocket science, and it probably doesnt sound as cool as tracking someone down with reverse Ip lookup. but much more efficient, and harder to mess up :)

QFT but I did not want to say it. TY

Isturi
04-24-2013, 11:07 AM
wasnt actually hoping for recrimination, just pointing out that the dude has watched one too many tv series in which rooms full of oversized monitors show really cool graphic images of the hero defending the network from invasion attempts by villainous hackers.

wanna know what knowing the IP address of a library computer is worth? nothing. that, and 5 bucks might buy you a coffee at starbucks. and just for future reference : IP masking ISNT the oldest trick in the book. unplugging the network cable is.


Thats why I will never never use my laptop in any library or Mcdonalds etc knowledge is power. If people want to risk using their laptops at libraries go ahead but don't be surprise if your hard drive gets filled up with a ton of pics that the FBI would take interest in. Public places are a breeding ground for hackers and whatever arrogant low life scum.

cusman
04-24-2013, 11:10 AM
That's pretty bad... why ruin the game for self and others exploiting stuff like this? Whatever... I am playing on PS3 where I assume this isn't happening or at least I haven't noticed it. Yet another good reason to stay away from PC games.

IGN
04-24-2013, 11:17 AM
So far the best part of the whole discussion for me is how people think anyone is going to get disciplined in game for something someone else said on the forum.

Lol damn you bet me to it.

chrismeyer34
04-24-2013, 11:40 AM
Umm. Did you even bother looking at the links provided by the OP? You also probably already experienced it many times and didn't realize it.

I am loving the game as well, but I don't PvP much and mostly run missions/arkfalls with my clan.

I just don't see the incentive to PvP when you can run a co-op mission and have more fun while getting better rewards.

i agree, if i do do the pvp thing its just for the pursuits and thats all, dont really see the point for pvp other than to have a hacker 1 shot you and then talk about how cool his loser *** is lol

Shleg
04-24-2013, 11:52 AM
Thats why I will never never use my laptop in any library or Mcdonalds etc knowledge is power. If people want to risk using their laptops at libraries go ahead but don't be surprise if your hard drive gets filled up with a ton of pics that the FBI would take interest in. Public places are a breeding ground for hackers and whatever arrogant low life scum.

you should avoid microwave ovens, and radio towers, too. the CIA uses both to zap your brian with secret z-rays. they're trying to control your thoughts

tstar420
04-24-2013, 12:03 PM
That's pretty bad... why ruin the game for self and others exploiting stuff like this?
Because the Console feel on the PC version and the lack of content makes the game EXTREMELY boring! Also what was advertised that had me waiting for the game isn't even there or the attempt was so weak its a total let down, either way its boring and done for me. Trion got me for a handful of cash but that's the last they will get from me until the PC version is fixed and feels like a MMO and not a single player TPS.

Perhaps the most excitement for these POS hackers is to exploit/hack it and not get caught?

IGN
04-24-2013, 12:34 PM
Because the Console feel on the PC version and the lack of content makes the game EXTREMELY boring! Also what was advertised that had me waiting for the game isn't even there or the attempt was so weak its a total let down, either way its boring and done for me. Trion got me for a handful of cash but that's the last they will get from me until the PC version is fixed and feels like a MMO and not a single player TPS.

Perhaps the most excitement for these POS hackers is to exploit/hack it and not get caught?

So you are ok with cheating because the game is a total let down for you?

That's almost as bad as the guy that said it was ok to cheat in PvE missions as long as they just give themselves unlimited ammo and bump up their damage to the max.

Cheating is not ok, no matter how its done. PvE/PvP/Whatever.

Orge Lambart
04-24-2013, 12:36 PM
I disagree, cheating in PVE is fine IMO, cheating in Co-op is dicey at best. Cheating in PVP is totally wrong. I'm sure Trion would disagree and say cheating in any form is wrong and violates the TOS and I would agree, if you let cheats exist in PVE eventually they'll creep into co-op and PVP.

Remag Div
04-24-2013, 12:46 PM
I disagree, cheating in PVE is fine IMO, cheating in Co-op is dicey at best. Cheating in PVP is totally wrong. I'm sure Trion would disagree and say cheating in any form is wrong and violates the TOS and I would agree, if you let cheats exist in PVE eventually they'll creep into co-op and PVP.

This makes absolutely no sense. You basically disagreed with yourself...

jnt
04-24-2013, 12:48 PM
I disagree, cheating in PVE is fine IMO, cheating in Co-op is dicey at best. Cheating in PVP is totally wrong. I'm sure Trion would disagree and say cheating in any form is wrong and violates the TOS and I would agree, if you let cheats exist in PVE eventually they'll creep into co-op and PVP.

So cheating is fine but cheating is also wrong.

So what's fine is wrong and co-op is not pve.

You made a little blood come out my nose. Ow.

Notorious Megan
04-24-2013, 12:51 PM
I swear if I go outside one morning and see people bunny hopping around.....

Oh my god I love you XD

IGN
04-24-2013, 12:56 PM
Now Reddit is involved too - http://www.reddit.com/r/Defiance/comments/1d0smu/weapon_damage_and_other_things_are_client_side_in/

Going to be interesting what happens. Trion devs check Reddit right?

jnt
04-24-2013, 01:02 PM
Now Reddit is involved too - http://www.reddit.com/r/Defiance/comments/1d0smu/weapon_damage_and_other_things_are_client_side_in/

Going to be interesting what happens. Trion devs check Reddit right?

Lol one guys cheats in Defiance with Cheat Engine. It's like Trion didn't really try :P

Booshy
04-24-2013, 01:05 PM
So last night was doing a Scrapper major arkfall and we are on the final event. You know how you have to shoot down the 4 towers, then the progenitor goes and repairs them, rinse and repeat. Usually you have to go through 2 or 3 rounds of that before it's all over. Last night, progenitor has FULL health, and in a matter of like 2 seconds, repairing his first tower, is dead. lol. I was just like wow - hacker city.

IGN
04-24-2013, 01:07 PM
Just curious, where do you live?

It's not LIFE, it's just bad neighborhood you've got there... get the hell out of that place man!

ROFL Megan. You just cracked me up.



Lol one guys cheats in Defiance with Cheat Engine. It's like Trion didn't really try :P

Lulz I didn't read that part. Apparently you can edit pretty much anything you want since everything is client side. At least according to this Amaras_Linwelin guy. But his previous posts lead me to believe that he knows what he is talking about.

Edit: Oh, it has to be the 64 bit version, apparently Trion can detect the 32 bit one hahahahah. Jeez this is terrible.

Remag Div
04-24-2013, 01:07 PM
Well, I'm sure Trion will fix this eventually, but as it stands if nothing is done soon I might stop playing because it's so easy and as of now openly being discussed everywhere.

jnt
04-24-2013, 01:10 PM
Well, I'm sure Trion will fix this eventually, but as it stands if nothing is done soon I might stop playing because it's so easy and as of now openly being discussed everywhere.

I've always been a proponent of forcing developers to fix issues like this one. Ensure the entire game population knows how to do it so it's either fix it or watch it all burn down etc. Usually works :P

IGN
04-24-2013, 01:20 PM
I've always been a proponent of forcing developers to fix issues like this one. Ensure the entire game population knows how to do it so it's either fix it or watch it all burn down etc. Usually works :P

I hope so.

Defiance has a lot of potential but the hackers make it pointless to even try.

I actually thought about cheating myself, just so that I could complete all the pursuits, but then I have a conscience, so I decided against it.

Technodude
04-24-2013, 01:28 PM
Thats why I will never never use my laptop in any library or Mcdonalds etc knowledge is power. If people want to risk using their laptops at libraries go ahead but don't be surprise if your hard drive gets filled up with a ton of pics that the FBI would take interest in. Public places are a breeding ground for hackers and whatever arrogant low life scum.

I keep saying this but this guy is best troll ever. :D


I have yet to come across any hackers. As many in the forums has stated. So it is very possible that this thread is just yet another poorly attempt to discredit Trion and the game. It is not working at all. These so called hackers are like little boys starving for attention. "Look at me see I can stand on my head." Sad and pathetic actually.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Notorious Megan
04-24-2013, 01:36 PM
I keep saying this but this guy is best troll ever. :D



:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Consistency is hard... ;)

Technodude
04-24-2013, 01:45 PM
Consistency is hard... ;)

He does post some very signature worth stuff though.

Shastra
04-24-2013, 01:56 PM
How is it Trions fault? People will find a way to cheat and hack no matter what. Is it WoW fault that they have hackers? Is it EVE fault that they have hackers? Is it LOTR fault that they have hackers? Is it EVERY MMO out there fault that they have hackers.

Keeping weapon damage client side is Trion's fault.

Lisa
04-24-2013, 01:58 PM
Now Reddit is involved too - http://www.reddit.com/r/Defiance/comments/1d0smu/weapon_damage_and_other_things_are_client_side_in/

Going to be interesting what happens. Trion devs check Reddit right?


Lol one guys cheats in Defiance with Cheat Engine. It's like Trion didn't really try :P



Edit: Oh, it has to be the 64 bit version, apparently Trion can detect the 32 bit one hahahahah. Jeez this is terrible.

Cheese and Rice. This is making Trion seem pretty incompetent. That's all it takes to bypass their amazing cheat detection system?

We should get Joystiq and Massively involved as well. It may be easy to ignore their customers, but if those guys start snooping around...

IGN
04-24-2013, 02:35 PM
Keeping weapon damage client side is Trion's fault.

It's very hard to imagine that the company behind Rift could make such a mistake.


He does post some very signature worth stuff though.

Lol. Man that's terrible.

DefiantFew
04-24-2013, 03:49 PM
Now Reddit is involved too - http://www.reddit.com/r/Defiance/comments/1d0smu/weapon_damage_and_other_things_are_client_side_in/

Going to be interesting what happens. Trion devs check Reddit right?

Very good read. Thanks. Apparently they even left in console commands. That is just lazy.

Zewks
04-24-2013, 03:53 PM
So wait, Trion will reply to a redit post, but not to one in their OWN forum?
Here is the reply from Trion on reddit:


"Just to jump in... We take Hacking and Cheating very seriously and our team is working to suspend and ban players who are verified offenders. We will continue to take action against players across the board. Our anti-cheat measures are both client side and server side and we are beefing up on all aspects around this.
We appreciate all the feedback and reports that the community has been sending our way around Hackers / Cheater. In most cases these players are truly cheating. In other cases, users were simply getting out played. To report cheaters please contact our Customer Support team at this link: https://support.trionworlds.com with as much proof as possible.
I want to thank @postatyourownrisk for this post as it is very helpful. This makes tracking down users and the methods they are using to cheat the game easier. Keep in mind we are reading your posts here, so keep them coming."

I dont know. "Taking it seriously" to me, as a developer, would mean NOT coding things like damage, client side. It would mean taking a proactive method against how cheaters might be able to cheat BEFORE the game is released, in the games core "engine". Trions "serious" view about cheating seems to be a "clean up" mentality rather than "prevention"

Every step of the way, things are popping up with this game revealing all the shortcuts that were taken in developing this game. Most mmo's arent anywhere near "finished" come release, but this game sure is shooting for the gold in "didnt even really try" award.

DefiantFew
04-24-2013, 04:01 PM
So wait, Trion will reply to a redit post, but not to one in their OWN forum?
Here is the reply from Trion on reddit:



I dont know. "Taking it seriously" to me, as a developer, would mean NOT coding things like damage, client side. It would mean taking a proactive method against how cheaters might be able to cheat BEFORE the game is released, in the games core "engine". Trions "serious" view about cheating seems to be a "clean up" mentality rather than "prevention"

Every step of the way, things are popping up with this game revealing all the shortcuts that were taken in developing this game. Most mmo's arent anywhere near "finished" come release, but this game sure is shooting for the gold in "didnt even really try" award.

Well at least they replied.

But yes shame that they didn't do it on this monster of a thread.

I also like it how he thanked the guy for bringing it to his attention when it was posted here hundreds of times. He also didn't even mention Lexinator, who brought this to mass attention with his epic Defiance guide.

So apparently if you want to chat with Trion, head to reddit and don't bother posting here.

Zewks
04-24-2013, 04:08 PM
So apparently if you want to chat with Trion, head to reddit and don't bother posting here.

Reddit posts make it to main stream media
Main stream media is seen by the shareholders and similar

At least we see the priority here.

Lisa
04-24-2013, 04:23 PM
Reddit posts make it to main stream media
Main stream media is seen by the shareholders and similar

At least we see the priority here.

NICE! Reddit got a response and it looks like they are tracking down on these hackers.

Really is too bad he didn't post it here...

The Govanator
04-24-2013, 05:56 PM
I'm sorry, but I can't muster any outrage. As they say "all is fair in love and war." True PvPers should and do seek any advantage they can to win. This can be through ingame means, by adopting FOTM OP builds, or otherwise. This is how real life works. The real world is a kill or be killed sort of place. Soldiers, politicians, businessmen, athletes don't stay alive or become successful because they played fair. They used everything in their power to beat the other guy into a pulp. Even that white knight Tour de France-winning cyclist Lance "I work for cancer charities" Armstrong was a lifelong cheater. Sure, in the real world, businessmen/politicians/athletes are less blatant about "cheating" (and youtubing the evidence for bragging rights) but that's because the penalty for doing so in real-life is a lot more harsh. After all what can Trion do to someone who gets caught cheating? Ban them? Cool, so the cheater can just buy another copy for $30 or hack someone's account and run around one-shotting people again.

Fighting cheaters is a losing proposition. The worst penalty Trion can hand out (permaban) doesn't deter any real cheater. Trion should just let things slide and make hacks freely available. I certainly think hacks would make PvE a lot better - I could farm keycodes much easier and get full legendaries.

In fact, cracking down hard on cheaters can lead to worse results. I know in GW2 (Guild Wars 2) they have strict anti-cheating policies, so the pro players mass hack gamers' accounts to take all their gold. They then use that gold to keep a permanent set of top tier consumables up on their characters, giving them a huge advantage in PvP. Half of my friends quit GW2 because they had their accounts hacked. Is this what you want to happen to Defiance? People nicking your accounts, characters and credit card info just because you got into an uproar over a PvP youtube video and Trion recoded their game to prevent hacks (btw PvErs can just ignore PvP and not come into contact with these PvPers).

so people should be terrorized and just give them their way, or else they'll try to pull a social engineering attempt to get us to fork over our passes on a fake login sit eor something? most of them are script kiddies and social engineers, they're not gonna hack peoples' accounts. and if someone ever did , and they slipped up and I could find them, who would be giving the ultimatums then? this real world you spoke of finally hit them right smack in the face about 100 times. you don't give in to scrawny, or lardazz, or under achieving little snots over the internet just because they threaten you, directly or indirectly. You're post indicates you are one of those people, btw, you're not fooling anyone. the kind of loser you must be to cheat in a video game, and thinking of it like your some hardcore tryhard, no one would be afraid of you people. no one should be. you hack in a game because you are not able to cheat enough in real life to be one of those examples that you refered to, so you get your godly feelings here. hacking and social engineering works both ways sometimes when you make enemies with that type of bs.

shadowkin
04-24-2013, 06:19 PM
The development /management conversation goes something like this:

Manager: "Will we get pvp in on time?"

Lead Dev: "Only if we put critical data client side"

Manager: "Whatever just get it in"


lol (blah blah blah need to make this post 10 characters)

Scrincer
04-24-2013, 06:42 PM
So wait, Trion will reply to a redit post, but not to one in their OWN forum?
Here is the reply from Trion on reddit:



I dont know. "Taking it seriously" to me, as a developer, would mean NOT coding things like damage, client side. It would mean taking a proactive method against how cheaters might be able to cheat BEFORE the game is released, in the games core "engine". Trions "serious" view about cheating seems to be a "clean up" mentality rather than "prevention"

Every step of the way, things are popping up with this game revealing all the shortcuts that were taken in developing this game. Most mmo's arent anywhere near "finished" come release, but this game sure is shooting for the gold in "didnt even really try" award.

As developper you should know the weapon damage in defiance arent CLIENT SIDE, whover started this rumor, its complete ********.

IGN
04-24-2013, 06:55 PM
As developper you should know the weapon damage in defiance arent CLIENT SIDE, whover started this rumor, its complete ********.

Then how can you edit them locally? Lol must be nice living in Denyiance.

AzzerUK
04-24-2013, 07:13 PM
As developper you should know the weapon damage in defiance arent CLIENT SIDE, whover started this rumor, its complete ********.

Urrr, yes they are. It's no rumour... the client tells the server what you hit, how much damage you did, etc. - and people found that very very simple tools that already exist for editing memory/cheating in-games (an old very well know program with the initials CE that has been around for yeeeears and years and years) works very easily and simply to do this. Note that I don't recommend trying this - I'm sure it's not difficult for Trion to detect what programs you have running while playing and ban you, but, well, risks aside - it's grotesquely simple :P

Scrincer
04-24-2013, 07:23 PM
Then how can you edit them locally? Lol must be nice living in Denyiance.

you can edit anything locally, it doesnt mean the server will allow it and broadcast it to everyone, btw the problem isnt the damage, its the firerate, even tho it seem to be the damage, its actually 50 differents attack packets sent roughly at the same time, instead of dealing 600 damages you can deal 30K. On the client you cant see it, it seems like only one attack but on the server it is not.

What Trion needs to do, is allow X attack packets / rate of your gun and discard the other n eventually ban the packets spammers :)

edit: just editing the damage number locally wont work. you can try it if you dont believe me

Schwa
04-24-2013, 07:30 PM
you can edit anything locally, it doesnt mean the server will allow it and broadcast it to everyone, btw the problem isnt the damage, its the firerate, even tho it seem to be the damage, its actually 50 differents attack packets sent roughly at the same time, instead of dealing 600 damages you can deal 30K. On the client you cant see it, it seems like only one attack but on the server it is not.

What Trion needs to do, is allow X attack packets / rate of your gun and discard the other n eventually ban the packets spammers :)

edit: just editing the damage number locally wont work. you can try it if you dont believe me

The server does allow it to be broadcast to everyone. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWGsNblYGKM&feature=youtu.be)

Security of this game is garbage. Such poor server validation is inexcusable from anyone releasing an MMO: FPS, RPG, or even ****ing SimCity.

Inexcusable. Trion has absolutely no defense for this, not even "launch issues." No excuse for failing to do more than just banning people after they're caught in such a massive-scale exploit like this, either.

tstar420
04-24-2013, 08:16 PM
So you are ok with cheating because the game is a total let down for you?

That's almost as bad as the guy that said it was ok to cheat in PvE missions as long as they just give themselves unlimited ammo and bump up their damage to the max.

Cheating is not ok, no matter how its done. PvE/PvP/Whatever.

I never said cheating was ok. Nor would I condone cheating in any way what i did say was "Perhaps the most excitement for these POS hackers is to exploit/hack it and not get caught?"

The game to me is boring and maybe its boring to others as well. I never once condoned cheating so pls learn english and not assume anything

IGN
04-24-2013, 08:22 PM
you can edit anything locally, it doesnt mean the server will allow it and broadcast it to everyone, btw the problem isnt the damage, its the firerate, even tho it seem to be the damage, its actually 50 differents attack packets sent roughly at the same time, instead of dealing 600 damages you can deal 30K. On the client you cant see it, it seems like only one attack but on the server it is not.

What Trion needs to do, is allow X attack packets / rate of your gun and discard the other n eventually ban the packets spammers :)

edit: just editing the damage number locally wont work. you can try it if you dont believe me

What I meant to say was "Then how can you edit them locally and have it work in game?"
A video on a hacking site shows you exactly how to edit your damage and the results. Nothing with the fire rate. The guy edited his damage and killed Hulkers in one hit.

Also did this thread lose a few pages? I swore it was well over 20 a few hours ago.

Lasdor
04-24-2013, 08:24 PM
I just finished a Explosions 101 and there was a guy one shooting everything, including the bosses. At the end he had dome 2kk dmg. That was rather boring, quick yet boring. I can only imagine how frustrating it might be during pvp. Hope Trion do something about those guys.

Booshy
04-24-2013, 08:32 PM
It's very hard to imagine that the company behind Rift could make such a mistake.



Lol. Man that's terrible.

It's pretty clear in almost everything I've experienced from both game's launches that this "Trion" team is pretty much a completely separate entity than the RIFT team and is only tarnishing the name now. Whether it be the shoddy release, slow updates and patches, terrible communication, etc etc etc - it's like the wicked step sister this team.

ArcHunterXxPattakxX
04-24-2013, 08:36 PM
Didn't they release a new set of patches for this issue?

OGkush
04-24-2013, 08:41 PM
I was just in a pvp match with a hacker on the other team and also on my team. Why is there so much hacking?

Lasdor
04-24-2013, 08:45 PM
I was just in a pvp match with a hacker on the other team and also on my team. Why is there so much hacking?

Because they have to compensate the lack of skill. They don't play games to have fun, they play because they -need- to win.

kyxsune
04-24-2013, 09:38 PM
long thread about hacking on the PC. Im not sure playing on a console is an actual improvement or not.

Lisa
04-24-2013, 10:20 PM
Didn't they release a new set of patches for this issue?

No, and the patch only broke more things than it fixed.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 11:09 PM
NICE! Reddit got a response and it looks like they are tracking down on these hackers.

Really is too bad he didn't post it here...

Why should they want to reply to a bunch of people who whine ***** and moan about the game on the official forums. I know I would not want to reply. Why go in front of a of people who wish to throw tomatoes at you. I sure as hell would not. I think the whinnying needs to stop. People need to grow up. Either play the game and enjoy it or do us who truly enjoy the game a favor and move on.

Isturi
04-24-2013, 11:13 PM
so people should be terrorized and just give them their way, or else they'll try to pull a social engineering attempt to get us to fork over our passes on a fake login sit eor something? most of them are script kiddies and social engineers, they're not gonna hack peoples' accounts. and if someone ever did , and they slipped up and I could find them, who would be giving the ultimatums then? this real world you spoke of finally hit them right smack in the face about 100 times. you don't give in to scrawny, or lardazz, or under achieving little snots over the internet just because they threaten you, directly or indirectly. You're post indicates you are one of those people, btw, you're not fooling anyone. the kind of loser you must be to cheat in a video game, and thinking of it like your some hardcore tryhard, no one would be afraid of you people. no one should be. you hack in a game because you are not able to cheat enough in real life to be one of those examples that you refered to, so you get your godly feelings here. hacking and social engineering works both ways sometimes when you make enemies with that type of bs.

Hackers and cheaters are nothing more but COWARDS and no skill LOSERS who could not win in a fair PVP match if they tried. I will be happy to tell anyone of these COWARDS to there face what I think of them. They are Cyber BULLIES and yes CYBER TERRORIST no better then the Boston bombers!!!!!!!

Technodude
04-25-2013, 01:10 AM
Hackers and cheaters are nothing more but COWARDS and no skill LOSERS who could not win in a fair PVP match if they tried. I will be happy to tell anyone of these COWARDS to there face what I think of them. They are Cyber BULLIES and yes CYBER TERRORIST no better then the Boston bombers!!!!!!!

You know some times it is too obvious that you are trolling. I liked it more when you weren't so obvious. But comparing hackers to Boston Bombers..genius. :D

Isturi
04-25-2013, 01:14 AM
You know some times it is too obvious that you are trolling. I liked it more when you weren't so obvious. But comparing hackers to Boston Bombers..genius. :D
Only trolling going on is by you dude, So I refuse to feed you anymore. I can 100 percent promise you will respond to this because you desire to troll me. Last time I will respond to you because I don't waste time with trolls.
Oh btw why do you care what I call hackers and cheaters unless you agree with them.

Technodude
04-25-2013, 01:16 AM
Only trolling going on is by you dude, So I refuse to feed you anymore. I can 100 percent promise you will respond to this because you desire to troll me. Last time I will respond to you because I don't waste time with trolls.

No one can be that stupid to compare cheaters to boston bombers. So obviously you are a very good troll. If not i feel sorry for you...but i guess you are just that good of a troll.

Tgreen
04-25-2013, 01:28 AM
Oh btw why do you care what I call hackers and cheaters unless you agree with them.

Because it downplays the bombing maybe?

It might seem almost too obvious, but if I shoot you in the head in the game or do it real life consequences will not be the same for neither of us.

I'm not disagreeing with you about hackers being _______ (enter your choice of bad words here), but your comparison hits the thumb not the nail.



No, and the patch only broke more things than it fixed.

Wouldn't say that. But a lot of bugs and issues that are very bad for the game weren't touched by the big patch.
I was among those who expected more bug fixes. But the ones they did fix were fixed after fixing the patch that fixed them.

Aurora Skye
04-25-2013, 01:28 AM
I've never hacked or cheated in a game, ever. (Ok maybe once when i was 12 and they made me be the Monopoly banker, lol.)

But I gotta be honest... they've made it so incredibly easy here, if some patches don't start rolling out soon, I'd be very tempted, just for one last PVE romp in godmode. Don't worry tho, I hate pvp ;)

Notorious Megan
04-25-2013, 01:29 AM
One thing is certain, this guy really do know how to create epic signatures for others XD

Isturi
04-25-2013, 01:37 AM
Because it downplays the bombing maybe?

It might seem almost too obvious, but if I shoot you in the head in the game or do it real life consequences will not be the same for neither of us.

I'm not disagreeing with you about hackers being _______ (enter your choice of bad words here), but your comparison hits the thumb not the nail.




Wouldn't say that. But a lot of bugs and issues that are very bad for the game weren't touched by the big patch.
I was among those who expected more bug fixes. But the ones they did fix were fixed after fixing the patch that fixed them.

Only reason Ive said this is because I want people to see that there is no difference between cyber terrorism and real life terrorism. Hackers are just that cyber terrorist.

Aurora Skye
04-25-2013, 01:40 AM
Unless you've had your real life legs blown off by a pvp hacker, you need to just step away from the keyboard and think about how stupid what you just said is.

Tgreen
04-25-2013, 01:42 AM
Only reason Ive said this is because I want people to see that there is no difference between cyber terrorism and real life terrorism. Hackers are just that cyber terrorist.

I hope you're trolling. For your own sake.

Technodude
04-25-2013, 01:43 AM
I hope you're trolling. For your own sake.

He is...quite obvious.

Isturi
04-25-2013, 01:50 AM
I hope you're trolling. For your own sake.
I am dead set against hackers. Not trolling and why would it be for my own sake? I speak my mind.
Hackers are bullies and I stand up to bullies. Always have always will. Its a game. In the game your object it to kill the bad guys with grenades and shot them. Hackers do this to the nth degree. They get thrills of hacking and doing this by one shooting people in a game so you tell me what is the difference?

Kela
04-25-2013, 01:51 AM
Its all well and good every tom duck and harry saying "get with the times client-side critical values is a bad idea". But name me a multiplayer FPS that is capable of hold more than 1000 people at the same time.

Long story short FPS games require low-latency else you'd all be moaning about LAG. It also has to act like a MMO style server and deal with multiple arkfall events and shadow wars all held on the same world, even though they are in instances/phases. So to achieve this it is normal for game devs to look to off-load anything they can from the servers. So mistakes such as keeping gun damage, range happens. Will the cheaters ever really stop? I don't think it will. A lot can be fixed and detected but like all games its a maturing process and as long as community we report everyone who cheats, we can only hope eventually it matures to the state that cheats become a 1-2 annoyance who get perm-banned.

So instead of making countless thread after thread, use the in game reporting option and just ignore them. nearly all cheaters get caught in the end as long as the company want to do it. If you want to make threads make them asking Trion what are they doing about it.

I can name one game that keeps the info server side, has a physics engine that calculates bullet drop so you as a player have to account for that. Has hosted 1k Players vs 1k Players combined arms battles with next to no lag...Planetside 2.

As to your point about hackers beating the system, yes no matter what you do you will get Hackers even with all critical data being processed server side PS2 still has a Hacker problem. IMO that doesn't excuse them from not learning doing what should be standard for an MMO and handling that stuff server side.

Aurora Skye
04-25-2013, 01:53 AM
Not trolling

Then I sincerly hope that this last ~10 minute break between your posts was filled with punching yourself in the face for saying something so "special."

Kela
04-25-2013, 02:03 AM
Oh please. Will it REALLY matter after 2-3 seasons of this show when it gets cancelled? Oh how do I know? We ARE talking about the SyFy channel after all. You know, the one that shows all the "B" rated movies and cancels scifi shows for wrestling. So after 2, maaaaaaaybe 3 seasons, who knows if this game will still even be running...
I don't know SyFy kept Stargate SG1 on the air like 5 seasons after it was cancelled on Showtime. Also a lot of the SyFy originals are actually quite good, are they a AAA blockbuster heck no, but they are better then most Made For TV Movies, not showing on a pay channel. Also Eureka, Warehouse 13 have both had over 4 seasons as had Stargate Atlantis.

If Defiance is canceled it will be because no one is watching it.

Kela
04-25-2013, 02:10 AM
:cool::cool::cool:
Its a fps not tab targeting, there are technical restrictions how things can be done, and this is the downside of making a unique game without target lock
Having damage done server side is not one of them, Planetside 1 had damage done Server side and that was created back in 2003.

Kela
04-25-2013, 02:18 AM
Um... What? This kind of game has been around for many years. Planetside 1, anyone?

And this is not Trion's first game. Rift has been out a long time, and has a rather positive level of quality, even if the overall story and such bored the crud out of me.




More than two online games on the market? I'm truly confused as to what you are talking about. There are so many online games on the market it's hard not to trip over them.

There is no excuse for not having server side checks for max damage, etc. Checks that not only prevent the dmg amount sent, but also set off an alarm to the GM staff to check that person out ASAP. This is all pretty straitforward to do. I'm amazed it didn't happen before release, but look forward to Trion tightening it up as they go along.

I'm sure they have logs of damage done by who, when, against what mob, etc. They will be caught and banned. I will enjoy their tears, the cheaters.

Sarcasm for the win. ;-)

Neralyte
04-25-2013, 03:36 AM
People need to stop complaining about how their f2p game that has seen content updates in the first weeks of launch, been patched (albeit with some flaws) along the way, provides a stupidly high amount of playable hours, and has some very solid and fun features, are apparently not getting their money worth and how useless the developer is being with meeting their "needs".

You could try enjoying the game and providing constructive feedback... oh wait, that's right, this is the internet, it serves 2 purposes... **** and anonymous ***** sessions.

Shleg
04-25-2013, 03:57 AM
No one can be that stupid to compare cheaters to boston bombers. So obviously you are a very good troll. If not i feel sorry for you...but i guess you are just that good of a troll.

never underestimate the boundaries of human ignorance.

Schwa
04-25-2013, 03:58 AM
People need to stop complaining about how their f2p game that has seen content updates in the first weeks of launch, been patched (albeit with some flaws) along the way, provides a stupidly high amount of playable hours, and has some very solid and fun features, are apparently not getting their money worth and how useless the developer is being with meeting their "needs".

You could try enjoying the game and providing constructive feedback... oh wait, that's right, this is the internet, it serves 2 purposes... **** and anonymous ***** sessions.

B2p. We bought to play.

And thus, we expected a full game in the box. We got a vertical slice.

We had every reason to expect higher quality, more varied content, better stability, and higher security in the box from Trion after Rift. They let themselves down.

Booshy
04-25-2013, 04:13 AM
People need to stop complaining about how their f2p game that has seen content updates in the first weeks of launch, been patched (albeit with some flaws) along the way, provides a stupidly high amount of playable hours, and has some very solid and fun features, are apparently not getting their money worth and how useless the developer is being with meeting their "needs".

You could try enjoying the game and providing constructive feedback... oh wait, that's right, this is the internet, it serves 2 purposes... **** and anonymous ***** sessions.

lol thanks for the laugh on that post!!

Jeronan
04-25-2013, 04:58 AM
Here is the feature list of the Helios cheatengine released specifically for DEFIANCE. It will give you an idea of the Scope of hacking currently going on in DEFIANCE!

Features
•Accuracy :
◦NoRecoil (Off, On)
◦NoSpread (Off, On)
◦Uberdamage (Configurable Damage + CritMult)
•Radar :
◦Compatible with PVE and PVP
◦3D Radar (Off, On) (+ Configurable for Players, Vehicles, Grenades, Flags, etc.)
◦2DRadar (Off, On) (+ Configurable radar scale)
◦Cross (Off, Cross, Dot, Box, Bounding Box)
◦Info Styles (Distance, Playername, Weaponname, Health, Armour)
◦Healthbars (Off, On)
•Profile System :
◦Profiles can be saved/loaded
•Graphical User Interface (GUI) :
◦Configuration Window with tab menus
•Help :
◦Help files (FAQs, Explanations, Examples)

Hperf
04-25-2013, 04:59 AM
I keep hearing people complaining about damage being client-side etc ...
For all the people with a minimum of knowledge here ... do you know what it takes for a server to handle damage, weapon firing rate etc ... ?

Imagine you are firing at someone but you don't do damage until the server has responded that your shot was correctly placed on your opponent etc ... ? People will complain about lack of responsiveness during combat ....

Having combat stats calculated on server side literally means that you put the fun out of the game. Or worse, you have to forget about having an "aim and shoot" MMO.

There will always be cheaters on game ! The problem here is not how the game is coded ... it's how they deal with cheaters !

They should record damage output from shadow war or coop maps whatever on client side ... and send these data on the server that says "Incorrect amount of damage per shot with this type of weapon". They may have this, or not ... we don't know and we don't have to know !

Now the part where I agree with you guys ... We (me and clanmates) keep reporting cheaters, everybody know them, everybody report them ... after two weeks, they are still here to one shot everything.
That is not something smart from Trion. Do they even investigate ?

To end my wall of text, having data client side is completely understandable. To be honest, if the game was not responsive I would not be playing it !
But Trion has to find a way to eradicate the cheaters plague or this game will end with unplayable PvP (which is actually very fun and keeps people happy with the current end game content).

Facade
04-25-2013, 05:32 AM
I keep hearing people complaining about damage being client-side etc ...
For all the people with a minimum of knowledge here ... do you know what it takes for a server to handle damage, weapon firing rate etc ... ?

Imagine you are firing at someone but you don't do damage until the server has responded that your shot was correctly placed on your opponent etc ... ? People will complain about lack of responsiveness during combat ....

Having combat stats calculated on server side literally means that you put the fun out of the game. Or worse, you have to forget about having an "aim and shoot" MMO.

There will always be cheaters on game ! The problem here is not how the game is coded ... it's how they deal with cheaters !

They should record damage output from shadow war or coop maps whatever on client side ... and send these data on the server that says "Incorrect amount of damage per shot with this type of weapon". They may have this, or not ... we don't know and we don't have to know !

Now the part where I agree with you guys ... We (me and clanmates) keep reporting cheaters, everybody know them, everybody report them ... after two weeks, they are still here to one shot everything.
That is not something smart from Trion. Do they even investigate ?

To end my wall of text, having data client side is completely understandable. To be honest, if the game was not responsive I would not be playing it !
But Trion has to find a way to eradicate the cheaters plague or this game will end with unplayable PvP (which is actually very fun and keeps people happy with the current end game content).

I think the main issue isn't how it's done client side (which is stupid) but how they put no effort into securing the files that are modified paired with the fact that if you are caught doing such things you get nothing more than a wrist slap in the form of a 24 hr suspension.

Xionsmith
04-25-2013, 05:43 AM
Does anyone even care about the cheating in this game? It's not like they are soloing raid content. PvP was a joke to start with. Go play Halo, Gear of War or CoD if you want PvP.

This is a story driven single player game with multi-player and pvp as an afterthought.

Jeronan
04-25-2013, 05:46 AM
Does anyone even care about the cheating in this game? It's not like they are soloing raid content. PvP was a joke to start with. Go play Halo, Gear of War or CoD if you want PvP.

This is a story driven single player game with multi-player and pvp as an afterthought.

They are ruining PVE as well. They are one shotting mini bosses and bosses in the world. Practically everything.
On top of that they are ruining Arkfall events by one shotting Crystals and one shotting the endboss in the Major Arkfall event.

Technodude
04-25-2013, 05:48 AM
Does anyone even care about the cheating in this game? It's not like they are soloing raid content. PvP was a joke to start with. Go play Halo, Gear of War or CoD if you want PvP.

This is a story driven single player game with multi-player and pvp as an afterthought.

You think people are using hacks and cheats only in PVP? PVE i s is also being exploited.

IGN
04-25-2013, 06:39 AM
Here is the feature list of the Helios cheatengine released specifically for DEFIANCE. It will give you an idea of the Scope of hacking currently going on in DEFIANCE!

Features
•Accuracy :
◦NoRecoil (Off, On)
◦NoSpread (Off, On)
◦Uberdamage (Configurable Damage + CritMult)
•Radar :
◦Compatible with PVE and PVP
◦3D Radar (Off, On) (+ Configurable for Players, Vehicles, Grenades, Flags, etc.)
◦2DRadar (Off, On) (+ Configurable radar scale)
◦Cross (Off, Cross, Dot, Box, Bounding Box)
◦Info Styles (Distance, Playername, Weaponname, Health, Armour)
◦Healthbars (Off, On)
•Profile System :
◦Profiles can be saved/loaded
•Graphical User Interface (GUI) :
◦Configuration Window with tab menus
•Help :
◦Help files (FAQs, Explanations, Examples)

Holy crap that's a lot of hack options.

I still don't see unlimited ammo or vehicle speed boost, or the ability to change your player model. I have seen those on YouTube videos though.

Thunderclap
04-25-2013, 07:10 AM
They are ruining PVE as well. They are one shotting mini bosses and bosses in the world. Practically everything.
On top of that they are ruining Arkfall events by one shotting Crystals and one shotting the endboss in the Major Arkfall event.
I would love to doing a side and have them kill the bosses while I am there as long i do damage I get the credit too. So thats win win for me.
Seriously, doing that on PVE in some parts makes it easier. Not harder. On the flip size I would love to see someone oneshot an arkfall event, just for the amusement

mcwjimbo
04-25-2013, 07:10 AM
People need to stop complaining about how their f2p game that has seen content updates in the first weeks of launch, been patched (albeit with some flaws) along the way, provides a stupidly high amount of playable hours, and has some very solid and fun features, are apparently not getting their money worth and how useless the developer is being with meeting their "needs".

You could try enjoying the game and providing constructive feedback... oh wait, that's right, this is the internet, it serves 2 purposes... **** and anonymous ***** sessions.

it is B2P not f2p

Buy to play

Thunderclap
04-25-2013, 07:15 AM
Holy crap that's a lot of hack options.

I still don't see unlimited ammo or vehicle speed boost, or the ability to change your player model. I have seen those on YouTube videos though.

None of that doesn't anything serious outside of PVP. No recoil and and spread means you will punch through accelerates the game, Its client side as is dmg, vehicle speed.
What people don't realize is that you have to read assembly code addresses while the game is running to do this.

mcwjimbo
04-25-2013, 07:18 AM
Holy crap that's a lot of hack options.

I still don't see unlimited ammo or vehicle speed boost, or the ability to change your player model. I have seen those on YouTube videos though.

was curious yesterday so googled the hacks and that list is nothing compared to the hacks people are doing

FLY

there is a freaking Flying hack

OY

Facade
04-25-2013, 07:18 AM
I would love to doing a side and have them kill the bosses while I am there as long i do damage I get the credit too. So thats win win for me.
Seriously, doing that on PVE in some parts makes it easier. Not harder. On the flip size I would love to see someone oneshot an arkfall event, just for the amusement


I get some people would like this since they wouldn't have to do absolutely anything but wow would that make the game boring when I just show up, fire 1 shot and then some dude rolls up and decimates an area.

IGN
04-25-2013, 07:27 AM
was curious yesterday so googled the hacks and that list is nothing compared to the hacks people are doing

FLY

there is a freaking Flying hack

OY

Lol are you kidding me? That would be hilarious to see. I tried to youtube it but the only video labeled Flying in Defiance was taken down....

Any chance you know of a place I can see it in action?

unixrocks
04-25-2013, 07:39 AM
I get some people would like this since they wouldn't have to do absolutely anything but wow would that make the game boring when I just show up, fire 1 shot and then some dude rolls up and decimates an area.

Yup its a total buzzkill.

So the Arkfalls are great because you get to be in this big epic series of battles with bugs throwing crap at you and people flying over your head as the flying lobstertail thing throws them around and the whole time your trying to land as much damage as possible.

I was looking forward to such a battle this morning showed up at a arkfall trained my newly modded SAW at a archer and boom - the thing blows up in front of me - thats fine....I guess I was to slow oh theres a *BOOM* no...hmmm oh theres the matriarch...*BOOM* darn....guess I will go after the crys...*BOOM* WTH?!?!


Well the sky is still red - theres 19 minutes left on the timer lemme check my map to see where the arkfalls are....nope....red circle but no arkfall. Guess I will head back to the ranch and shoot some chickens then. :p

mcwjimbo
04-25-2013, 07:43 AM
Lol are you kidding me? That would be hilarious to see. I tried to youtube it but the only video labeled Flying in Defiance was taken down....

Any chance you know of a place I can see it in action?


haven't seen it myself. Had been reading here in the forums others mentioning the flying and thought they were full of BS, but a few sites actively providing cheats had Flying listed as a hack

I love flying in games = DCUO and COH R.I.P but in defiance LOL OY what the hell motivated people to come up with that hack

wilks
04-25-2013, 08:03 AM
I am a big fan of Lexinator's Defiance guide (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=136738681#) since it helped me start out and answered a lot of question that Trion never did. Now the same guide also explained why there are so many hackers plaguing my PvP matches.

He actually has videos in his guide that blatantly show people hacking. Shotgun damage for 800000 HP, AR pulses instantly killing Monarchs, etc. It's all very funny if it wasn't so sad. There is no actual hacking methods mentioned in there, just some very hilarious videos.

Trion, in this day and age how could you make weapon damage client side WITHOUT putting in any checks for max damage? Come on guys.

Also you do realize that you nerfed weapons based on hacked damage, right? Don't you have some way to check these things? I would really like an official Trion response.

Following some of those YouTube links I also spotted a video of a car zooming over the landscape because vehicle speed is also client side. What exactly does the server do in Defiance Trion? Does it even store our characters or will we eventually find out that they too are encoded and hashed somewhere on our hard drives?

As it is, there is no point in playing. Arkfalls and PvP are both dominated by hackers, and there is no incentive to do random events since they no longer give keys.

Even running a co-op dungeon I was grouped with a hacker that was instantly killing everything with his infector... Will those get nerfed again now? Because hitting a mob for 9 million damage with a homing weapon is quite OP.

Finally, any chance we can get some more incentive to PvP and do random events? As it is, one PvP match lasts longer and gives less rewards than doing a much faster PvE mission.


All great points. But as for hackers, they can fix the weapon bug mabe. Putting dmg server side might slow down the game to a point that we cant aim properly. If you look at other mmos with server side dmg, your looking at a lock-on, use a skill key, wait for cooldown type of game, because you need the server response before the next attack. And hey, I watched a hacker video that took place about 3 months ago in WOW. If blizzard with the most sucessfull mmo cant stop hackers. What chance does this game have?

IGN
04-25-2013, 08:49 AM
haven't seen it myself. Had been reading here in the forums others mentioning the flying and thought they were full of BS, but a few sites actively providing cheats had Flying listed as a hack

I love flying in games = DCUO and COH R.I.P but in defiance LOL OY what the hell motivated people to come up with that hack

Aaaw. But with no fall damage flying in Defiance would be pretty cool.

Isturi
04-25-2013, 09:07 AM
people need to stop complaining about how their f2p game that has seen content updates in the first weeks of launch, been patched (albeit with some flaws) along the way, provides a stupidly high amount of playable hours, and has some very solid and fun features, are apparently not getting their money worth and how useless the developer is being with meeting their "needs".

You could try enjoying the game and providing constructive feedback... Oh wait, that's right, this is the internet, it serves 2 purposes... **** and anonymous ***** sessions.
qft tyvm!!!

jnt
04-25-2013, 09:09 AM
People need to stop complaining about how their f2p game that has seen content updates in the first weeks of launch, been patched (albeit with some flaws) along the way, provides a stupidly high amount of playable hours, and has some very solid and fun features, are apparently not getting their money worth and how useless the developer is being with meeting their "needs".

You could try enjoying the game and providing constructive feedback... oh wait, that's right, this is the internet, it serves 2 purposes... **** and anonymous ***** sessions.


Why are you talking about F2P? The rest of this thread is about Defiance.

Isturi
04-25-2013, 09:13 AM
Why are you talking about F2P? The rest of this thread is about Defiance.

Free 2 play. The guy is right it is F2P after you buy it lets not get technical.

Kettlewell
04-25-2013, 09:15 AM
Hack it ALL!

jnt
04-25-2013, 09:22 AM
Free 2 play. The guy is right it is F2P after you buy it lets not get technical.

Sure. I mean words don't lose their meaning if the definition is radically different depending on who you talk to or anything. It doesn't make a discussion harder for sure.

IAMVILELENT
04-25-2013, 09:32 AM
I'm starting to think defiance works exactly like phantasy star universe did. Everything was client side, the damage and numbers information get sent to the server, then back to the players who are already taged on that mob, which is why other players damage still shows up on a monster, just not the actual damage number. I think the only thing that is server side is weapon "specs" and mob/npc locations.

Which is why it was so simple for them to nerf gun specs across the entire platform, no one has a "pre patch" type of weapon. Which is also somewhat scary considering Trion can just decide to nerf gun stats w/o having to mention anything. I'll be taking screen shots of all my equipment from here on out.

So with that, I think hackers are just starting to scratch the surface of whats possible. I'm almost 100% positive that the algorithm that determines the rarity of an item drop is client side. Including those from lock boxes. In fact the process of payment for bits happens almost instantly, which leaves me to believe that it is also client side for a few moments before the information is sent to the server, infinite bits anyone?

jnt
04-25-2013, 09:35 AM
I wonder if you can edit perk data? You could make it 100% chance to drop an item on critical kill.

Greyworm
04-25-2013, 09:46 AM
Free 2 play. The guy is right it is F2P after you buy it lets not get technical.Even if it was f2p (Which it literally isn't since we all paid money to play it) having no anti-cheat and client side statistics would've been equally ridiculous.

Isturi
04-25-2013, 09:48 AM
What hackers are to stupid to realize because they are to busy gloating is that Hacking in itself is illegal and Trion can take legal actions against such hackers if they choose to. For example just for starers they can report each hacker to http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
If they chose to do so. After all these people breached Trions Defiance program and that is a serious offense. They little kiddies or cowards or cyber terrorist don't think that law applies to them well guess what it does.

jnt
04-25-2013, 09:50 AM
What hackers are to stupid to realize because they are to busy gloating is that Hacking in itself is illegal and Trion can take legal actions against such hackers if they choose to. For example just for starers they can report each hacker to http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
If they chose to do so. After all these people breached Trions Defiance program and that is a serious offense. They little kiddies or cowards or cyber terrorist don't think that law applies to them well guess what it does.

Maybe this is a dumb question but...what does changing values in your client have to do with fraud?

Isturi
04-25-2013, 09:51 AM
Maybe this is a dumb question but...what does changing values in your client have to do with fraud?
That would be up to Trion to decide. Not me so I can not answer this.

IAMVILELENT
04-25-2013, 09:52 AM
What hackers are to stupid to realize because they are to busy gloating is that Hacking in itself is illegal and Trion can take legal actions against such hackers if they choose to. For example just for starers they can report each hacker to http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
If they chose to do so. After all these people breached Trions Defiance program and that is a serious offense. They little kiddies or cowards or cyber terrorist don't think that law applies to them well guess what it does.


To bad the companies doing this aren't US based. Making any civil lawsuits useless. Good luck trying to track down script kiddies in Brazil or the UK so you can sue them for money they have already laundered through bitcoin.

Upinya Slayin
04-25-2013, 09:57 AM
I am a big fan of Lexinator's Defiance guide (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=136738681#) since it helped me start out and answered a lot of question that Trion never did. Now the same guide also explained why there are so many hackers plaguing my PvP matches.

He actually has videos in his guide that blatantly show people hacking. Shotgun damage for 800000 HP, AR pulses instantly killing Monarchs, etc. It's all very funny if it wasn't so sad. There is no actual hacking methods mentioned in there, just some very hilarious videos.

Trion, in this day and age how could you make weapon damage client side WITHOUT putting in any checks for max damage? Come on guys.

Also you do realize that you nerfed weapons based on hacked damage, right? Don't you have some way to check these things? I would really like an official Trion response.

Following some of those YouTube links I also spotted a video of a car zooming over the landscape because vehicle speed is also client side. What exactly does the server do in Defiance Trion? Does it even store our characters or will we eventually find out that they too are encoded and hashed somewhere on our hard drives?

As it is, there is no point in playing. Arkfalls and PvP are both dominated by hackers, and there is no incentive to do random events since they no longer give keys.

Even running a co-op dungeon I was grouped with a hacker that was instantly killing everything with his infector... Will those get nerfed again now? Because hitting a mob for 9 million damage with a homing weapon is quite OP.

Finally, any chance we can get some more incentive to PvP and do random events? As it is, one PvP match lasts longer and gives less rewards than doing a much faster PvE mission.

you could just play on console where we don't ahve these issues

Jeronan
04-25-2013, 11:01 AM
That would be up to Trion to decide. Not me so I can not answer this.

They don't even have to touch any Client files. The cheat engines alter the values realtime in memory.
As the devs just let the Client load everything in plain memory, without any form of hash/encryption.

Facade
04-25-2013, 11:03 AM
you could just play on console where we don't ahve these issues

Only they do have the same issues, it's just not as prevalent there.

Technodude
04-25-2013, 11:15 AM
Free 2 play. The guy is right it is F2P after you buy it lets not get technical.

The term is decided by the MMO industry not by you me or some other random forum poster. It is called B2P because you have to buy the game first..whether the game is free afterwards is irrelevant to the meaning of the term.

IGN
04-25-2013, 02:28 PM
you could just play on console where we don't ahve these issues

It's there too, just not as much.