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Remag Div
04-25-2013, 08:41 AM
So now after the first big patch fiasco it seems like Trion has gone MIA. We had those nice daily sticky threads detailing the process of launching and what they are fixing and whatnot but now I feel like we're in limbo here.

The known issues for the patch is up to 530 replies. When is the next patch? are you fixing everything in one large patch (bad idea, will just end up getting 100 new bugs probably) or little by little? Are you guys going to address the client side hacking? The massive PvP issues? What's the plan for Episode 3 content?

I'm just going to assume the entire team is hard at work trying to fix and add all these things but throw us a bone here!

Khufu
04-25-2013, 09:00 AM
Add to this that the PS3 has still not been patched at all with no word of if or when that will happen.

Fiancee
04-25-2013, 09:02 AM
Last Executive Producer post was posted just a few days ago.. http://community.defiance.com/en/

jnt
04-25-2013, 09:02 AM
Go talk about it on Reddit :D

bobinsen
04-25-2013, 09:03 AM
there was an article on destructoid a day or so ago, basicly there playing possum.
they dont wanna deal with the flak so there keeping tight liped so we all get bored and leave them alone.

Cutlass Jack
04-25-2013, 09:09 AM
there was an article on destructoid a day or so ago, basicly there playing possum.
they dont wanna deal with the flak so there keeping tight liped so we all get bored and leave them alone.

Sounds Legit.

hardy83
04-25-2013, 09:12 AM
there was an article on destructoid a day or so ago, basicly there playing possum.
they dont wanna deal with the flak so there keeping tight liped so we all get bored and leave them alone.

Please provide a link, because the only article you mention that sounds familiar is Jim Sterling just talking about the industry in general and uses EA and Sega/Gearbox as examples. (http://www.destructoid.com/simcity-colonial-marines-and-the-silence-252259.phtml)

MacDeath
04-25-2013, 09:14 AM
Well, Sledge has been out sick. He was working from home but his boss (a wise lady) made him stop it so he could recover. I'm guessing he'll be back today and we'll see more Trion activity.

Mathew Everett ‏@sledgehammer70 23 Apr
My boss had to call and e-mail me to stop working...

EdgeTW
04-25-2013, 09:18 AM
Last Executive Producer post was posted just a few days ago.. http://community.defiance.com/en/

Do you mean the one that basically says (http://community.defiance.com/en/2013/04/19/the-road-to-hell-is-paved-with-good-intentions-or-the-day-i-twerked-in-hell/) "I rushed out the last patch before it was ready. We're excited about the show launching. We're working very hard." ?

I think maybe players are looking for a little more than that as far as developer interaction goes. Here's some samples of how Blizzard engages their MMO community on the forums (rather than a weekly-ish blog pep-talk) :

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8411981159?page=2#32

Lead Encounter Designer Ion "Watcher" Hazzikostas noticed this thread last night and has these thoughts to share:

Yes, Oondasta's maximum health has been reduced by 50%. The design intent behind this boss was for the primary audience to be guilds rather than pickup groups. That is why we placed Oondasta on a relatively remote island, surrounded by powerful elite dinosaurs that make solo travel in the area a dicey proposition. It's why he has mechanics that will outright kill you without the coordinated use of cooldowns, and careful positioning. It's a very different philosophy than our approach to designing bosses like Sha of Anger or Nalak. Of course, things didn't exactly play out as we envisioned -- as we all know, it was possible to overwhelm Oondasta with sheer numbers. While not intended, that was not entirely negative. There have been some pretty epic experiences on the Isle of Giants in the last couple of weeks. There's something to be said for the sight of a hundred spells and missiles flying through the air at a huge dinosaur.

We could have made a number of changes that would have made this approach entirely impossible: Consider a version of Oondasta with a Spiritfire Beam that could hop to 99 targets instead of 20, and a Doomwalker-style debuff that prevented players who had died during the encounter from re-engaging. Definitely not zergable. But that doesn't mean that people would stop trying, and the result would likely be a boss that no one could kill, and a frustrating experience for most participants. So we didn't do that.

Ultimately, while our server hardware is much, much more powerful than what we had in place during the days of events like the Opening of Ahn'Qiraj years ago, it still has limits. And what we have increasingly been observing was players massing around Oondasta in such great numbers that it brought servers to their knees. As word spreads that Oondasta has spawned, more and more people flock to the Isle of Giants for a piece of the action. Many people have been in Oondasta fights where spells took multiple seconds to cast, and the dinosaur perhaps stopped using its abilities entirely. Players with anything but the very best computers saw nothing but a slideshow. And in extreme cases, the entire continent of Pandaria crashed. That simply isn't an acceptable experience for our players, and so we reduced Oondasta's health, so that smaller groups are more likely to be successful, and he'll likely die before so many players arrive that it degrades the experience for everyone present. If server capacity were limitless, we wouldn't have made any of these changes, but alas that is not the case.

Oondasta clearly did not deliver on our original expectations. We'll apply the lessons learned from this experience to any future world bosses we add.


And another one..

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/8197590653#1

Lead Systems Designer Greg Street (Ghostcrawler) wanted to give notice of several class hotfixes that went live last night along with the reasoning behind those changes.

Hotfixes:


Mage: Nether Tempest, and Living Bomb have their damage increased by 40%. Both spells now deals 70% of its damage when used against other players, down from 100%.
Mage: Frost Bomb damage have been increased by 40%. Frost Bomb now deals 60% of its damage when used against other players, down from 80%.


We’re happy with the relative power of Arcane, Fire and Frost mages in PvE to each other, but all three specs are below where we want them. We were hoping that once groups got past the first few 5.2 raid encounters that benefit a lot from multi-dotting that we’d see mage DPS climb, but it’s not there yet. We don’t want to change rotations or force players to change specs, so we wanted a relatively passive change.

We decided to buff the bombs because it affects all three specs relatively similarly and is as close to a passive form of damage as mages have. Had we buffed the cast-time nukes, the risk is that mages would lose even more DPS on high movement or high multi-dot fights, which wasn’t our intent. If these buffs aren’t sufficient, we will happily make more, but we’d rather make a few buffs a few times in a row rather than over buff then have to nerf it back down.


Warlock: Corruption damage -25%.
Warlock: Doom damage -25%.
Priest: Shadow Word: Pain damage -25%.


We want the dot specs to do well in multi-dot scenarios, but Affliction, Demonology and Shadow were doing too well on multi-dot fights and are still quite competitive on non-multi-dot fights. Balance druids, so far, are where we want them to be.


Death Knight: Howling Blast secondary target damage to 50% of primary target (down from 65%)
Death Knight: Rune Strike damage +25%.
Warrior: Shield Slam damage +25%.
Warrior: Deep Wounds damage for Protection only, +50%.

We’re keeping a close eye on death knights. Frost and Unholy are both performing really well, but Frost was higher than we wanted during cleave-type scenarios. They will still be quite good at cleaving even with this change.

Tank DPS is a difficult metric to measure because some tanks care a lot about their DPS, and work to maximize it, while others are content to fill the more traditional tank role of worrying about survivability and boss control, and pay less attention to their DPS. Therefore, it’s challenging to analyze logs and determine whether you’re seeing the full potential of tank DPS or not. For now, we think warrior and DK tank DPS was a little low, so we took steps to adjust it.

Remember, it’s not a goal that every spec do exactly equally well in every possible encounter, and in fact we think that would be boring. We just don’t want things to get so extreme that certain specs feel like they aren’t meaningfully contributing to the group’s efforts. All of this means that raid performance is a somewhat subjective call and we’d like to ask that you keep that in mind as you offer your feedback.

Now, those are just run of the mill forum postings over at Blizzard. I've had my fill of WoW and am all too happy to never play it again. But one of the things that helped keep me playing that game for years was that they took the time to engage their audience. And I know some developers like to use the excuse that if they're posting on the forums they're not developing the game, and that players need to choose which they'd rather have.. but Blizzard manages to juggle both and I don't think anyone has ever accused their game of being short on content. So, enough with that excuse.

I've said this before, but it's an MMO. Engaging your players is part of the job. And I'm not trying to pile this on Sledgehammer (who I hope gets well soon). The other developers have fingers and keyboards too.

Pyth
04-25-2013, 09:18 AM
How many times should they have to respond to the same exact questions being asked over and over?

Generally speaking, a person feels like they've resolved any kind of inquiry when they've answered it once. If they have to do it twice, it's fine. Maybe not everyone understood the first time. But when you get to the point where you have to answer a question a dozen times or more, you just say "**** it."

EdgeTW
04-25-2013, 09:24 AM
How many times should they have to respond to the same exact questions being asked over and over?

Generally speaking, a person feels like they've resolved any kind of inquiry when they've answered it once. If they have to do it twice, it's fine. Maybe not everyone understood the first time. But when you get to the point where you have to answer a question a dozen times or more, you just say "**** it."

First, your comment implies they are actually responding on topics a dozen times, which they aren't. It also implies they provide answers when they respond, which they're not. Short comments like "Looking into it", and "plan on fixing that" tend to lose their luster when results don't happen in a reasonable amount of time.

jnt
04-25-2013, 09:26 AM
I imagine it would help them avoid repeat questions if they just made sure the answers are collected and posted on the official forum. Who wants to dig through 12 gaming sites and reddit to see if their concerns have been addressed yet?

Blueandwhite87
04-25-2013, 09:30 AM
I take this as a lesson if things don't change, this game is full of bugs, communication is poor, im going to avoid a Trion product in the future, I did the same with Funcom, I will not buy another Funom game for a loooong time.

Fraga
04-25-2013, 09:35 AM
I imagine it would help them avoid repeat questions if they just made sure the answers are collected and posted on the official forum. Who wants to dig through 12 gaming sites and reddit to see if their concerns have been addressed yet?

Right. A specific and complete answer to a question on the forum would mean they wouldn't even have to worry about answering the question again. Every time a repeat came up, a regular forum poster would step up to answer it. At the moment, nobody actually knows the answers to the most common questions (e.g. what's the plan for episode missions over the next few weeks?) so no one can answer them when they keep popping up.

The best we get is people speculating and being unable to cite the source of their info.

Fraga
04-25-2013, 09:58 AM
I'm not ready to grab a pitchfork just yet, but I do wish I felt like I was being treated more like an adult. Or, more specifically, like an investor in a product who has a reasonable right to be kept in the loop.

jnt
04-25-2013, 10:02 AM
The game likely has a pre planned trajectory to follow. There won't be changes that conflict with that. There likely aren't enough resources to fix a lot of what people are complaining about (the rampant client side cheating) at the moment.

Lack of communication is probably just the safer version of "nothing in the works for that sorry"

Tgreen
04-25-2013, 10:26 AM
Pretty sure no one is that stupid ... they must have set a budget aside to fix all the bugs that come with the release ... and it's guaranteed to see bugs when live servers open, never seen a MMO without any.

And wasn't it said that the DLC got pushed back because they want to do more fixes first? Guess it has a lot to do with how their budget is split up and that you can't fight bugs before you find them in your game.

Content is always planned long in advance, most people don't even realize how long developing a new raid instance for example takes.
Bug fixes on the other hand have to be done reactively ... so it will take some time between first manifestation of the bug and deploying the fix. Another thing many posters here seem to not be aware of.

Am I buying loads of bits right now? No, I can't see into the future and cannot know whether it would be worth it or not.
Am I aware that Trion is working hard behind the scenes? What else would they be doing?
Does Trion want more money? Who doesnt?
What would make me give them more money - results or promises they make on their forums? I guess now we realise why they prioritize working in programming, development, etc. over answering questions and requests.

Most threads are simply not worth their effort to begin with to be honest.

Rek Vio
04-25-2013, 10:44 AM
I guess its kind of cool to engage your core audience but really, it comes down to whether they are fixing stuff at a significant rate. I am sure they are interesting developers and care about us, I would rather they show they care by fixing issues in game.

EdgeTW
04-25-2013, 11:11 AM
What would make me give them more money - results or promises they make on their forums? I guess now we realise why they prioritize working in programming, development, etc. over answering questions and requests.


I guess its kind of cool to engage your core audience but really, it comes down to whether they are fixing stuff at a significant rate. I am sure they are interesting developers and care about us, I would rather they show they care by fixing issues in game.

Except, not only do they not appear to be fixing things at a "significant rate", they don't appear to be communicating much either. And yet, other companies seem perfectly capable of juggling both.

So, which excuse should we try placating ourselves with next?

jnt
04-25-2013, 11:16 AM
I guess its kind of cool to engage your core audience but really, it comes down to whether they are fixing stuff at a significant rate. I am sure they are interesting developers and care about us, I would rather they show they care by fixing issues in game.

A good deal of the bugs people reported when the game was going live were there in beta.

If you think about the beta weekend timing and the physical requirements of pressing and shipping?

The game was probably already shrink wrapped when the last beta weekend went up :P

Talonir
04-25-2013, 11:32 AM
I log on every day in hopes of a patch just to fix the bugged pursuits I currently do not earn any credit for PvP ones and my arkfall kills reset every day. Have had a ticket open for a week with no response, I would be happy if they just focused on bugs for the next month and released no new content. They also have a very nice mod system for weapons yet no way to actually get them, I am 1600 ego and the only mods I have seen is brutal and run and gun from the mod caches.

Khufu
04-25-2013, 11:40 AM
How many times should they have to respond to the same exact questions being asked over and over?

Once would suffice for me. Still waiting...

Tgreen
04-25-2013, 11:46 AM
Except, not only do they not appear to be fixing things at a "significant rate", they don't appear to be communicating much either. And yet, other companies seem perfectly capable of juggling both.

So, which excuse should we try placating ourselves with next?

The number of people working on Defiance seems to be quite limited and the game is new, not one that's around for the last years ... or even decade.

What is a 'significant rate'? Tell me, do you have any idea about programming, software engeneering or system management in any shape or form?
And of course you might have forgotten that the lovely console giants Sony and MS put a limit on how ofter Trion may deploy patches?

Ryme
04-25-2013, 11:53 AM
I guess its kind of cool to engage your core audience but really, it comes down to whether they are fixing stuff at a significant rate. I am sure they are interesting developers and care about us, I would rather they show they care by fixing issues in game.

From my experience, I find it to be the opposite. Of course there will be bugs and glitches. This is true of all things, not just games and software. The important thing is to let your customers know what you're doing to resolve the issues. If they understand why an issue is so complicated and difficult to address, they are less likely to be impatient about its resolution. People are reasonable for the most part. It is when they feel neglected and ignored that they lash out.

Here (http://forums.firefallthegame.com/community/threads/phobos-and-the-devs-a-complete-lack-of-communication.94290/#post-1880572)is an example of someone I feel is a good community representative.

Oceanhawk
04-25-2013, 11:56 AM
LOL I'm not sure they are still there at all. I believe they all got moved to the next big fiasco.

EvilOps
04-25-2013, 12:12 PM
I think what's most alarming is the candid and frequent updates and blogs as the game launched has slowed to a trickle.

Consistency is key to happy boards. ( yes, some will never be happy)

Booshy
04-25-2013, 02:33 PM
So now after the first big patch fiasco it seems like Trion has gone MIA. We had those nice daily sticky threads detailing the process of launching and what they are fixing and whatnot but now I feel like we're in limbo here.

The known issues for the patch is up to 530 replies. When is the next patch? are you fixing everything in one large patch (bad idea, will just end up getting 100 new bugs probably) or little by little? Are you guys going to address the client side hacking? The massive PvP issues? What's the plan for Episode 3 content?

I'm just going to assume the entire team is hard at work trying to fix and add all these things but throw us a bone here!

I've been feeling the same way and made a post about this too, it's really frustrating! And they never had anything to say about the rollback and 7 hour downtime from last weekend either. Communication is the pits.

cab0218
04-25-2013, 02:46 PM
I have heard people have had some bugged pursuits fixed by live chat. That is pretty sad that in order to have it fixed we have to contact support.

Dazz
04-25-2013, 03:52 PM
While I like communication from the devs, I'd really rather they focus on improving the quality of gameplay rather than mix it up with us here in the forums. There's 239847980192834 different opinions on what people want in the game, features, content etc, but really the focus needs to be on resolving some of these long-standing bugs first.

Fraga
04-25-2013, 04:03 PM
While I like communication from the devs, I'd really rather they focus on improving the quality of gameplay rather than mix it up with us here in the forums. There's 239847980192834 different opinions on what people want in the game, features, content etc, but really the focus needs to be on resolving some of these long-standing bugs first.

OK, seriously, what is with this idea that they have to have the same people do every job at the company? "Do you want Bill here on the forums, or do you want him fixing the game??"

Why on earth would a company like this, one that is attempting to manage a community of so many thousands of players, not have hired separate people whose sole responsibility is to gather information from wherever it is needed (programming, development, sales, marketing, whatever) and keep engaged with the community? Of course that job exists, so we would like that person to talk to us. Bill can keep programming.

Dazz
04-25-2013, 04:09 PM
OK, seriously, what is with this idea that they have to have the same people do every job at the company? "Do you want Bill here on the forums, or do you want him fixing the game??"

Why on earth would a company like this, one that is attempting to manage a community of so many thousands of players, not have hired separate people whose sole responsibility is to gather information from wherever it is needed (programming, development, sales, marketing, whatever) and keep engaged with the community? Of course that job exists, so we would like that person to talk to us. Bill can keep programming.

Depends entirely on budget. I have no clue as to what Trion's budget is like, but if Sledgehammer and some of the other moderators are actively in-world playing and helping track down bugs to pass along to the programmers and production people, then good on 'em. That's what I would hope they're doing rather than stressing over the opinionated trolls on the boards.

EdgeTW
04-25-2013, 04:16 PM
The number of people working on Defiance seems to be quite limited and the game is new, not one that's around for the last years ... or even decade.
You seem to be making several assumptions. About the size of the staff, for one. As well as assuming a "new game" is incapable of making communications a priority. I've seen many that started poorly in this area like the Defiance team but quickly turned around and corrected the mistake after receiving justified backlash (The Star Trek Online developers at Cryptic, for example).



What is a 'significant rate'? Tell me, do you have any idea about programming, software engeneering or system management in any shape or form?
Yes. Would you like to make any further assumptions?

Tgreen
04-25-2013, 04:30 PM
You seem to be making several assumptions. About the size of the staff, for one. As well as assuming a "new game" is incapable of making communications a priority.

You brought up Blizzard as an example and as such my 'assumption' stands as a fact ... Trion's Defiance team is without a doubt smaller than Blizzards WoW department.

And I never said 'incapable' of making communications a priority, I implied that fixing bugs and broken mechanics is better then talking about it.
If they don't have to choose between developing and deploying fixes and patches and writing about it without impairing timeline or quality then it's even better.
'Priority should be working on the game, not PR here on the forums' is a statement you disagree with?



Yes. Would you like to make any further assumptions?

Assumptions usually don't end with a question mark or give you the direct incentive to 'tell me' anything.

Shanks
04-25-2013, 04:37 PM
Last Executive Producer post was posted just a few days ago.. http://community.defiance.com/en/

True, but there was nothing really at all in that other than a nod to the TV show and an almost apologetic theme. Well, that and the now horrifying image of Nathan Richardsson twerking (no offense Nathan :p) forever embedded into my head. The last posted update with any substance was on April 11th.
http://community.defiance.com/en/2013/04/11/day-29-its-tricky-to-rock-a-rhyme-thats-right-on-time-so-heres-a-patch-to-address-that/

They did a good job with staying vocal for a bit but it's been rather mum of late. We know they said a second big update was coming followed by the first DLC, but we haven't really heard anything about either and the actual known issues thread hasn't been officially updated in some time.

EdgeTW
04-25-2013, 04:59 PM
You brought up Blizzard as an example and as such my 'assumption' stands as a fact ... Trion's Defiance team is without a doubt smaller than Blizzards WoW department.
And then I cited STO and Cryptic as an example (and they are a very small team) and you just glossed over that.



If they don't have to choose between developing and deploying fixes and patches and writing about it without impairing timeline or quality then it's even better.
'Priority should be working on the game, not PR here on the forums' is a statement you disagree with?

Again (as someone else mentioned already) what is with these assumptions that there's only a handful of guys running around on the team doing everything (*especially* for this game, which is supposed to be this big-time cooperative effort between Trion and SyFy?). You guys make it sound like they're just winging this and in no way staffed up to take this project on seriously.

Haven't we already seen three community managers for Defiance? I've been on MMO forums where the CM's round up the player hot topics, bring them to the developers, and then bring back news on those topics on an almost daily basis. And that can't be done here because.... why, again?

Tgreen
04-25-2013, 05:15 PM
And then I cited STO and Cryptic as an example (and they are a very small team) and you just glossed over that.

STO wasn't just a bomb it was 6.8. '45 in it's second incarnation.


Community watch, rounding up topics etc is great for discussing content, it's not smart when it's about fixing bugs ... one is proactive, the other is reactive by nature. Just actually read my previous posts about this, I already said this.

I don't think the community work should stay the way it is right now, for a game that runs smoothly with no or small issues that don't concern specific content it would be horrible. But we're not there yet.

Elandriel
04-26-2013, 12:49 AM
...

Most threads are simply not worth their effort to begin with to be honest.

Imagine them having the same opinion. And we are talking about their customers here! Would you care for such a company?


From my experience, I find it to be the opposite. Of course there will be bugs and glitches. This is true of all things, not just games and software. The important thing is to let your customers know what you're doing to resolve the issues. If they understand why an issue is so complicated and difficult to address, they are less likely to be impatient about its resolution. People are reasonable for the most part. It is when they feel neglected and ignored that they lash out.

Here (http://forums.firefallthegame.com/community/threads/phobos-and-the-devs-a-complete-lack-of-communication.94290/#post-1880572)is an example of someone I feel is a good community representative.

Great link! I would like to post some words from this CS guy who obviously knows his job better than anyone at Trion:

"Understand that it is my job to represent the company (especially the bad things) to the community and represent the community to the company."

This is CS!

Schwa
04-26-2013, 12:58 AM
How many times should they have to respond to the same exact questions being asked over and over?

Generally speaking, a person feels like they've resolved any kind of inquiry when they've answered it once. If they have to do it twice, it's fine. Maybe not everyone understood the first time. But when you get to the point where you have to answer a question a dozen times or more, you just say "**** it."

The problem is, they haven't resolved the issues people keep asking about. That's why people keep asking the same damn questions.

Fix the problem, then people will stop asking the questions. They're taking their sweet time fixing some critical issues, though, like the disappearing items and player data corruption issues on PC.

duction
04-26-2013, 01:10 AM
If the bugs are client side, then they will have to fix them and re test them and store them ready for the new patch... They ain't gonna submit loads of little patches all the time.


On another note I have noticed most of the moaners have left the forum.. About time lol.

EdgeTW
04-26-2013, 08:30 AM
On another note I have noticed most of the moaners have left the forum.. About time lol.

That is such a bad attitude to have.

Sadly, the people complaining are the ones who will always look like the bad guys, but in reality they're the ones lighting the fires under complacency, being the squeaky wheels and pointing out the problems so the rest of you can benefit from the fixes. When a game has problems (as this one unquestionably does), I would rather have a forum full of complainers than a forum full of fanboys, as the latter can kill an MMO infinitely easier than the former ever could. If all you do is sit there and smile, pretending there are no issues and insisting everything will be fine, nothing changes and you reinforce a lack of action.

It is this same kind of horribly flawed thinking that doomed games like SWTOR, as it was *impossible* to criticize any aspect of that game during its development without a legion of Bioware fanboys crashing down on the complainer like a sack of hammers. And it was those same fanboys who were left wondering how everything went so horribly wrong when reality finally set in on them post-launch. I was dismayed to see the same thing happening on the Defiance forums in the months leading up the game's launch.. players so eager to please and be supportive that nobody seemed willing to question any of the design decisions or point out the very obvious problems the game had.

For every "moaner" that leaves, that's one less person begging for improvements to the game you seem to be so blindly hot for. Who will fight for improvements when they're all gone? Not people like you.. who seem content to play with whatever mess is placed in front of them.

"lol" indeed.