PDA

View Full Version : MMO companys never learn



Rumbleskin
05-01-2013, 10:44 PM
You cant just luanch a MMO and not have raids as endgame. Dailys are not and never will be endgame. 9 out of 10 failed MMO's would still be running and making money with subs if they had just remembered this one little rule.

No Raids no players

(casuals never have and never will make a winning MMO)

Wtflag
05-01-2013, 10:58 PM
Isn't arkfall raids? You may need to qualify what you believe raids should be if Arkfalls don't satisfy those requirements.

Anyway Defiance is a shooter first. MMO second.

End game for a shooter is PVP.

(Also, for many MMORPGs, the ultimate end game is PVP, GVG, Shard v shard)

Steppdaddy
05-01-2013, 10:59 PM
MMO companies

Am I the only one who lol'd?

Aryctic
05-01-2013, 11:01 PM
Isn't arkfall raids?

Anyway Defiance is a shooter first. MMO second.

End game for a shooter is PVP.

(Also, for many MMORPGs, the ultimate end game is PVP, GVG, Shard v shard)

Pretty much my thoughts. ^

Cutlass Jack
05-01-2013, 11:03 PM
My feeling is Some players never learn and every MMO rush to the Endgame thats never there at launch.

Schwa
05-01-2013, 11:05 PM
It's not a simple matter of add raids = success. Defiance is missing an entire layer of content in between incidental co-op and raiding. There's a giant, gaping wound/hole/crater where challenging co-op content (nevermind raids) should go that finishes their design for an MMO or for a TPS.

Devs need to show us they know how to make a 4-man co-op that actually requires some strategy before raids are even worth discussing. What few co-op missions we have in the game make a mockery of teamwork.

Malachi
05-01-2013, 11:26 PM
You cant just luanch a MMO and not have raids as endgame. Dailys are not and never will be endgame. 9 out of 10 failed MMO's would still be running and making money with subs if they had just remembered this one little rule.

No Raids no players

(casuals never have and never will make a winning MMO)

What on earth are you smoking? WoW is entirely catered to casuals and is the most successful MMO in history. And don't give me that "Vanilla WoW was hardcore" argument, because Vanilla WoW is for pansies compared to EverQuest (it's only competition when WoW released).

Armitage
05-02-2013, 12:40 AM
What on earth are you smoking? WoW is entirely catered to casuals and is the most successful MMO in history. And don't give me that "Vanilla WoW was hardcore" argument, because Vanilla WoW is for pansies compared to EverQuest (it's only competition when WoW released).

^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.

Whitelocke
05-02-2013, 12:45 AM
^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.

^pretty much all this !

KOLZ
05-02-2013, 12:53 AM
What on earth are you smoking? WoW is entirely catered to casuals and is the most successful MMO in history. And don't give me that "Vanilla WoW was hardcore" argument, because Vanilla WoW is for pansies compared to EverQuest (it's only competition when WoW released).

No kidding. LOL.. everyone knows that wow is turned in to ****** mode for garbage casual players since they never wanna earn anything. Then think every company will do the same thing for them since they are trash thanks to wow and blizzard

MacDeath
05-02-2013, 12:53 AM
^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.
Pretty much every MMO launched since 2004 has been either casual or ultra-casual. WoW made/makes a LOT of money. Other companies aren't sure WHY WoW makes money but they assume casual has something to do with it.

Midnight
05-02-2013, 12:55 AM
^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.

Ahhh...good times!

Dandrielas
05-02-2013, 01:03 AM
Pretty much every MMO launched since 2004 has been either casual or ultra-casual. WoW made/makes a LOT of money. Other companies aren't sure WHY WoW makes money but they assume casual has something to do with it.

At this point, I don't think even WoW knows anymore.

AssKicka
05-02-2013, 01:33 AM
At this point, I don't think even WoW knows anymore.
Made me laugh as I presume its true...

Thing is these kind of games need content that is challenging in various aspects once you have completed the main "story" missions. There needs to be something to work towards that will make you character fell like it is moving forward and gaining ground in terms of abilities, power, aesthetics etc. This does not necessarily mean "WoW type raids". This content also needs to be very challenging and the rewards great.

Easy, repeatable, solo-able, monotonous daily missions to earn resources to buy guns that are no better than stating white guns, which by the way you can use to beat anything the game throws at you, cannot be considered "end game content".

EvilOps
05-02-2013, 01:37 AM
Made me laugh as I presume its true...

Thing is these kind of games need content that is challenging in various aspects once you have completed the main "story" missions. There needs to be something to work towards that will make you character fell like it is moving forward and gaining ground in terms of abilities, power, aesthetics etc. This does not necessarily mean "WoW type raids". This content also needs to be very challenging and the rewards great.

Easy, repeatable, solo-able, monotonous daily missions to earn resources to buy guns that are no better than stating white guns, which by the way you can use to beat anything the game throws at you, cannot be considered "end game content".

Experiment: Code name-WOW KILLER. (Actual name Guildwars 2)

Report: One of the best single player games on the market.

Schwa
05-02-2013, 01:37 AM
Made me laugh as I presume its true...

Thing is these kind of games need content that is challenging in various aspects once you have completed the main "story" missions. There needs to be something to work towards that will make you character fell like it is moving forward and gaining ground in terms of abilities, power, aesthetics etc. This does not necessarily mean "WoW type raids". This content also needs to be very challenging and the rewards great.

Easy, repeatable, solo-able, monotonous daily missions to earn resources to buy guns that are no better than stating white guns, which by the way you can use to beat anything the game throws at you, cannot be considered "end game content".

"End game" doesn't make much sense in Defiance, though. It doesn't need to-- that's a result of the game's foundation.

I'm still very much pissed there's no difficult or even slightly more skilled than dur-hur content in the game. At all. I'd freaking do it for a hat at this point.

EvilOps
05-02-2013, 01:44 AM
"End game" doesn't make much sense in Defiance, though. It doesn't need to-- that's a result of the game's foundation.

I'm still very much pissed there's no difficult or even slightly more skilled than dur-hur content in the game. At all. I'd freaking do it for a hat at this point.

I'm with you. It seems for the last week I spend most of my time on a voice client (not the in game) and watch my controller rattle for no reason in front for the Iron demon ranch. Oddly im never booted for inactivity. Hours on end just standing there. Guess the severs arent stressing too hard.

MacDeath
05-02-2013, 01:52 AM
"End game" doesn't make much sense in Defiance, though. It doesn't need to-- that's a result of the game's foundation.

I'm still very much pissed there's no difficult or even slightly more skilled than dur-hur content in the game. At all. I'd freaking do it for a hat at this point.
Troo dat. I like that this game is solo friendly. I don't like that it's ONLY solo friendly. It would ne way cool to have SOME content that required team play.

KashraFall
05-02-2013, 01:57 AM
^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.

Ah the good ole days of early EQ, before all the expansions. Nothing beat joining a zone and hearing "BOAT!" so you raced and went as fast as you could. Trying to get there and getting there just in time to see it sail away...ensuring you would for 45 minutes or more be sitting on the docks, swimming in the water, or wandering the zone for a bit. My personal favorite moment in EQ was having to wait for a FBSS slot to open up. It took 3 days. I kid you not, 72 hours I sat in lower guk for that damn thing. WoW isn't nor will it ever be hardcore. I commend you Armitage for being one of those people who trudged through the hell EQ was when it first launched.

Archeus9
05-02-2013, 01:59 AM
No kidding. LOL.. everyone knows that wow is turned in to ****** mode for garbage casual players since they never wanna earn anything. Then think every company will do the same thing for them since they are trash thanks to wow and blizzard

Lets give them thier due... thanks to wow.. no one makes the hard mmos like eq1 etc anymore. Now everything is dumbed down, bland and hardly any stories... at least not like they had back in the day.

Archeus9
05-02-2013, 02:05 AM
Pretty much every MMO launched since 2004 has been either casual or ultra-casual. WoW made/makes a LOT of money. Other companies aren't sure WHY WoW makes money but they assume casual has something to do with it.

YEah casual had nothing to do with it. WoW was in the right place at the right time and it just exploded.. people were looking for osmethign else and they found it, that and wow was pretty fun. I wont lie about that... the problem was when the whole damn gaming industy though that copying them was en excellent idea. Its actually a stupid idea... because if people wanted something like WoW.. guess what.. theyd go and play wow... companies still dont get that.

WoW was just really lucky it blew up like it did.

Ninno20
05-02-2013, 02:12 AM
MMO's haven't always been about raids, and i don't miss them at all, if anything defiance is a nice change to the uber grind raid frests im used to.

All it would turn into is repeating the same run constantly trying to get uber weapons which makes the majority of the map obsolete once i can 1 hit everything. Meaning all i will do is continue to repeat said raids as i have even less to do.

But i suppose some super long missions, with lots of story and a large group wouldn't be to bad, aslong as they don't make it like every other snooze fest like wow.

AssKicka
05-02-2013, 02:25 AM
MMO's haven't always been about raids, and i don't miss them at all, if anything defiance is a nice change to the uber grind raid frests im used to.

All it would turn into is repeating the same run constantly trying to get uber weapons which makes the majority of the map obsolete once i can 1 hit everything. Meaning all i will do is continue to repeat said raids as i have even less to do.

But i suppose some super long missions, with lots of story and a large group wouldn't be to bad, aslong as they don't make it like every other snooze fest like wow.

The problem is two fold:

1. Add progression weapons and gear and you make parts of the game obsolete.
2. Don't add progression weapons and gear and you stuck with a casual game that is too easy and has no reward in doing anything.

Solution:
Make mobs scale in difficulty based on number of players * average EGO rating * average "gear" rating and then add progression weapons and gear.

So many people have come up with great ideas to take the base of this game and make it enjoyable for all, the PvPers, the PvEers, the wanna be raiders etc. I believe Trion will gather all this input and brainstorm the best road map and keep updating the game to everyone's benefit and make it a great experience. At least that is what I hope and am lead to believe from the RIFT community.

SoopaMan2K
05-02-2013, 02:36 AM
It's not a simple matter of add raids = success. Defiance is missing an entire layer of content in between incidental co-op and raiding. There's a giant, gaping wound/hole/crater where challenging co-op content (nevermind raids) should go that finishes their design for an MMO or for a TPS.

Devs need to show us they know how to make a 4-man co-op that actually requires some strategy before raids are even worth discussing. What few co-op missions we have in the game make a mockery of teamwork.

Right!? To me, it's mostly "Look at me! I out damaged you!"

ghostercon
05-02-2013, 02:37 AM
The problem is two fold:

1. Add progression weapons and gear and you make parts of the game obsolete.
2. Don't add progression weapons and gear and you stuck with a casual game that is too easy and has no reward in doing anything.

Solution:
Make mobs scale in difficulty based on number of players * average EGO rating * average "gear" rating and then add progression weapons and gear.

So many people have come up with great ideas to take the base of this game and make it enjoyable for all, the PvPers, the PvEers, the wanna be raiders etc. I believe Trion will gather all this input and brainstorm the best road map and keep updating the game to everyone's benefit and make it a great experience. At least that is what I hope and am lead to believe from the RIFT community.

Those great ideas means basically to redesign the game. Took them 5 years to do this ....imagine the timeline for redesigning this into a decent game.

Thunderclap
05-02-2013, 04:14 AM
^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.
Which is why in 2009 the bit with the dev shirt given to a player who soloed a major boss was funny as it was sad.
Still, this might have been an excellent MMORPG but it isn't. Its a persistent world shooter with co-op play. I wont even use massively multi because there is only one North American server.
Apparently they didn't want to make another Rift so they gave us this.

Thunderclap
05-02-2013, 04:16 AM
The problem is two fold:

1. Add progression weapons and gear and you make parts of the game obsolete.
2. Don't add progression weapons and gear and you stuck with a casual game that is too easy and has no reward in doing anything.

Solution:
Make mobs scale in difficulty based on number of players * average EGO rating * average "gear" rating and then add progression weapons and gear.

So many people have come up with great ideas to take the base of this game and make it enjoyable for all, the PvPers, the PvEers, the wanna be raiders etc. I believe Trion will gather all this input and brainstorm the best road map and keep updating the game to everyone's benefit and make it a great experience. At least that is what I hope and am lead to believe from the RIFT community.

What is wrong with making parts obsolete? What is wrong with creating progressive areas for the people who log in later while the show is running? Not everyone should come in via New freedom. Some should just happen on it.

Cistzelos
05-02-2013, 04:53 AM
^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.

My favorite MMO ever was FFXI. Hoping the relaunch of FFXIV brings some of it back.

Even it wasn't quite as hardcore as original EQ though.

Redman20
05-02-2013, 05:18 AM
Right now, i cant play the game for more than an hour before i get bored and play something else or watch Netflix.

I log on, go do a couple arkfalls, do an emergency or two, maybe level up a weapon on the Hulker, then scrap EVERY SINGLE PIECE of gear i found because it is no different than what i already have. Then think 'what now? I guess i could go finish all the side missions' but to what end? Get a thousand scrip or so, a few thousand XP.

Theres no strategy, no thinking, no ultimate goal but to grind an XP bar so....the number on your gun will be a little higher but be a carbon copy of the gun you had at the start of the game.

Eisberg
05-02-2013, 05:19 AM
Lets give them thier due... thanks to wow.. no one makes the hard mmos like eq1 etc anymore. Now everything is dumbed down, bland and hardly any stories... at least not like they had back in the day.

Play Darkfall if you want something towards the EQ1 days.

ChAoTic Puppy23
05-02-2013, 05:22 AM
I like the game :) it is awesome! Cant wait till they have the next part of the missions out!

Conneri
05-02-2013, 05:53 AM
As was hinted on before, Defiance is a Shooter. WoW, Everquest, FFXIV, etc. are all RPGs. They play by different rules. Remove the MMO element from any of those games and see where they fall. The draw of games like CoD is not challenging PvE (though the missions are fun). The draw of any RPG is the gear grind and story and crazy end bosses. They are playing in two different sandboxes.

Can the raid idea cross into a shooter? Maybe, but there's no need to push it just because some people are confusing MMO with an MMORPG.

Neptonius
05-02-2013, 05:58 AM
Defiance is a Shooter and im fine with that, there are crap load of other games out there with tons of raid, why dont you join one of them?

IGears
05-02-2013, 06:20 AM
Right now, i cant play the game for more than an hour before i get bored and play something else or watch Netflix.

I log on, go do a couple arkfalls, do an emergency or two, maybe level up a weapon on the Hulker, then scrap EVERY SINGLE PIECE of gear i found because it is no different than what i already have. Then think 'what now? I guess i could go finish all the side missions' but to what end? Get a thousand scrip or so, a few thousand XP.

Theres no strategy, no thinking, no ultimate goal but to grind an XP bar so....the number on your gun will be a little higher but be a carbon copy of the gun you had at the start of the game.

this +1000
to make a balanced Third Person Shooter, the weapons and other gear do not have a real progression like other mmos. Because of this, there is no real difficult PvE/Coop because no weapon or gear will progress to help with the increase difficulty. (sorry if you dont understand what i see) but this is why i hate PvP.

an example... I got a blue TACC assault rifle at ego 250.. it was so good that i continued to use it until i was 800 ego. i only stopped using it because i realized that i couldnt level up my Assault rifle skill with the maxed out weapon.

loken
05-02-2013, 06:22 AM
As was hinted on before, Defiance is a Shooter. WoW, Everquest, FFXIV, etc. are all RPGs. They play by different rules. Remove the MMO element from any of those games and see where they fall. The draw of games like CoD is not challenging PvE (though the missions are fun). The draw of any RPG is the gear grind and story and crazy end bosses. They are playing in two different sandboxes.

Can the raid idea cross into a shooter? Maybe, but there's no need to push it just because some people are confusing MMO with an MMORPG.


There's no confusion, its a Shooter regarding game mechanics, setup differently only from COD (or any other shooter) concerning the MMO part(persistent world) but the MMO part means you need player longevity. there is no longevity concerns with your typical shooter ( which this game is based around) because a new game is always on the horizon.

"gear grind and story and crazy end bosses" this has little to do with RPG and more about player longevity, giving player a sense of advancement

Lollie
05-02-2013, 06:27 AM
If players want raids they can go to one of the million other games that have a raid endgame (yes all those games that seem to not be doing well despite this apparently magic formula for success according to OP) :rolleyes:

IGears
05-02-2013, 06:27 AM
As was hinted on before, Defiance is a Shooter. WoW, Everquest, FFXIV, etc. are all RPGs. They play by different rules. Remove the MMO element from any of those games and see where they fall. The draw of games like CoD is not challenging PvE (though the missions are fun). The draw of any RPG is the gear grind and story and crazy end bosses. They are playing in two different sandboxes.

Can the raid idea cross into a shooter? Maybe, but there's no need to push it just because some people are confusing MMO with an MMORPG.

if i wanted to play a shooter that doesn't have mmo expectations, i would just play Borderlands Or Call of Duty...

with that being said,...at least Borderlands difficulty progresses with you as you level.

ironhands
05-02-2013, 06:36 AM
^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.

/ooc porting to PoSKy 5 mins at the nexus stone

Sometimes I really miss hardcore EQ, especially corpse runs.

Gohlar
05-02-2013, 06:40 AM
"but but but Defiance is a shooter"

Yep. A shooter with an insane lack of content and nothing to do with a group that requires an IQ over 60. It's so bare bones anyone defending it is simply being dumb and blindly defending their purchase.

Defiance is a crappy tps. Defiance is a horrible mmo. Forget rpgs, they have nothing to do with why Defiance is so bad.

hardy83
05-02-2013, 06:42 AM
Trion, stick to co-ops. This game doesn't need raids.

Raids are just a barrier. Particularly for story and locations.

Why spend so much effort on creating pretty places and adding specific story KNOWING that only a fraction of people will see it.
Just because it's common in other MMOs doesn't mean you need to do it too.

Any "raid" type thing should be public. As in public raids, like, I dunno, ark falls, or maybe a street emergency where you have to take out 2-4 Hulkers.

Lumax
05-02-2013, 06:44 AM
/ooc porting to PoSKy 5 mins at the nexus stone

Sometimes I really miss hardcore EQ, especially corpse runs.

^^^^^^

Agree but I dont miss the 3am phone calls telling me an Avatar is up and i need to log on and kill it along with 200 other people. Kids this days and there WOW talk...............

QuikFoX3a
05-02-2013, 07:00 AM
Isn't arkfall raids? You may need to qualify what you believe raids should be if Arkfalls don't satisfy those requirements.

Anyway Defiance is a shooter first. MMO second.

End game for a shooter is PVP.

Sadly no Arkfalls are not raids as there is little to no skill involved in doing them, I could sit a 3 year old down and tell him/her to just press a button and the Arkfall would still be completed. Also Arkfalls can be done in a group of 4 "Raids" should not be a small "Dungeon Group" piece of content.

As for Defiance's End Game being PvP, that would require them actually having PvP that means something or have more then 2 types of PvP. Team Deathmatch and Shadow War(which I've never been able to join at all in over 20 days) isn't enough to call "End Game".

So in essence the OP's post is correct Defiance has no normal "End Game" as of yet to keep people playing more then a month or two months at best.

Gohlar
05-02-2013, 07:02 AM
Sadly no Arkfalls are not raids as their is little to no skill involved in doing them, I could sit a 3 year old down and tell him/her to just press a button and the Arkfall would still be completed. Also Arkfalls can be done in a group of 4 "Raids" should not be a small "Dungeon Group" piece of content.

As for Defiance's End Game being PvP, that would require them actually having PvP that means something or have more then 2 types of PvP. Team Deathmatch and Shadow War(which I've never been able to join at all in over 20 days) isn't enough to call "End Game".

So in essence the OP's post is correct Defiance has no normal "End Game" as of yet to keep people playing more then a month or two months at best.

Exactly. Arkfalls are brain dead and pvp was dead on arrival due to hacks. Co-ops also present no challenge.

Game is weak.

ironhands
05-02-2013, 07:17 AM
^^^^^^

Agree but I dont miss the 3am phone calls telling me an Avatar is up and i need to log on and kill it along with 200 other people. Kids this days and there WOW talk...............

my wizzy epic, somehow, VS, phinny, and the fear golems were all up and dropped everything i needed, did it in 45 mins. insane.

Racheakt
05-02-2013, 07:39 AM
^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.

I have been around, Played UO before any of the moden rules, players could kill you and tale all your stuff, hell they could pickpocket you to.

I spent hours doing Corpse runs in AC.

No flight paths, no fast travel, you wanted to go somewhere, you had to hoof it (Or find a mage to port you)

WoW made all those obsolete, showed that not punishing players = success.

I like (for the most part) the system that Defiance has going for it. Note I am not opposed to raids (http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?55969-Roadmap-on-how-to-NOT-NGE-your-community/page20) I think creating the Raid style power creep is bad for the game.

ironhands
05-02-2013, 07:50 AM
WoW made all those obsolete, showed that not punishing players = success.

What it actually showed, is that waving shiny stuff in peoples faces that takes little effort makes them give you their money

Raids and structured co-ops are great things, but you are correct, it's the rewards that ultimately decide if they would be used, and the answer to the question of "will people do these events for anything less than "phat lewt" and clearly more powerful weaponry.

SteveMND
05-02-2013, 07:51 AM
You cant just luanch a MMO and not have raids as endgame.

Raids = niche content. Raids as implemented in most MMOs tend to cater to a very narrow subset of the game's population... specifically, raiding guilds. I'd like to think that over the last half-decade, companies have realized that they need to cater to more than just one fraction of their base to survive long term, and that there are far better ideas to implement for so-called 'eng-game' content, especially when dealing with a shooter and not a traditional MMO.

And also especially with such an open-ended progression system as Defiance has. There's really technically no effective 'end-game,' just a point at which what's left to do is too boring anymore for a particular player, which can be ego 300 or ego 3000.


What it actually showed, is that waving shiny stuff in peoples faces that takes little effort makes them give you their money

Well, I think a little of both. People play games to have fun, pure and simple. WoW and later companies realized that while some people liked the classic 'no fast travel,' lootable player corpses, losing your stuff permanently, etc. approach, a lot MORE people out there preferred a game that was less a chore and more just a fun diversion. it's not that the old guard has been slowly morphing into the new players, it's that the old guard is simply dying out as newer players take their place. The newer players don't want another job, they want a game.

Lumax
05-02-2013, 08:01 AM
[QUOTE=SteveMND;515963]Raids = niche content. Raids as implemented in most MMOs tend to cater to a very narrow subset of the game's population... specifically, raiding guilds. I'd like to think that over the last half-decade, companies have realized that they need to cater to more than just one fraction of their base to survive long term, and that there are far better ideas to implement for so-called 'eng-game' content, especially when dealing with a shooter and not a traditional MMO.

QUOTE]

This most certainly is not true. Everyone seems to forget the trickle effect from raiding, OMG that sounds like a campaign speech. It is true you have your raiders and your raider guilds all competeting for the top spot on the server/game. You also have your casual rading guilds who dont care about the "I want to kill it ALL" mentatlity, however they still raid regardless. You then have your casual questers that log on for a few breif hours a night or day and do the zones. What you fail to regard is that even the Casual Questers or ones that simply do not raid still do zones for money and or loot. They use that Loot to sell and make money. They use that money from selling to buy what you might ask........
Gear from Raids......

Atleast thats how it has been in that games I played.

Saying that Raids take up only 10% of the population simply is not true. Maybe the Hardcore raiders that raid 7 days a week 4 hours a day, however every game I played that had raids as an endgame had 90% of the gamer population participating in the raids on some level.

RegularX
05-02-2013, 08:02 AM
You cant just luanch a MMO and not have raids as endgame. Dailys are not and never will be endgame. 9 out of 10 failed MMO's would still be running and making money with subs if they had just remembered this one little rule.

No Raids no players

(casuals never have and never will make a winning MMO)

Odd, I was on like crazy late last night. On a weekday. Plenty of players.

ironhands
05-02-2013, 08:21 AM
Well, I think a little of both. People play games to have fun, pure and simple. WoW and later companies realized that while some people liked the classic 'no fast travel,' lootable player corpses, losing your stuff permanently, etc. approach, a lot MORE people out there preferred a game that was less a chore and more just a fun diversion. it's not that the old guard has been slowly morphing into the new players, it's that the old guard is simply dying out as newer players take their place. The newer players don't want another job, they want a game.

Right... wave shiny/easily achievable loot in their faces and they'll pay/play it

Racheakt
05-02-2013, 08:25 AM
Odd, I was on like crazy late last night. On a weekday. Plenty of players.

Yes, I have found myself playing a lot longer in the evening than I care to admit. Still need one Lightning Archer :(

I see lots of people on.

Something must be right.

Cynical Jester
05-02-2013, 08:42 AM
^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.

One thing I love about this game that really has nothing to do with the game... I see so many old EQ players here!! Means I'm in the right place!..

Also, I was a Wizard on Firiona Vie for the very reasons you mentioned... It was well.. Profitable to say the least and convenient ... Made lots of cleric friends =p..

Eventually EverQuest felt the impact WoW was having and tried to cater to the same style of players... The very reason I left.

I see Defiance and EQ Next in my future for the long haul.. Use to be UT99 and EQ...

EQ Question: Who remembers that old cave between those plains where people use to sit and trade.. I think we called it the commons or something.. west commons? I don't remember.. Been so long

BaiorOfRed
05-02-2013, 08:44 AM
You cant just luanch a MMO and not have raids as endgame. Dailys are not and never will be endgame. 9 out of 10 failed MMO's would still be running and making money with subs if they had just remembered this one little rule.

No Raids no players

(casuals never have and never will make a winning MMO)

OR, and this is very crazy, maybe they can come up with a NEW idea to keep us busy that isn't in 10 other MMOs. OMG, wouldn't that be something...

dalendria
05-02-2013, 08:44 AM
Isn't arkfall raids? You may need to qualify what you believe raids should be if Arkfalls don't satisfy those requirements.

Anyway Defiance is a shooter first. MMO second.

End game for a shooter is PVP.

(Also, for many MMORPGs, the ultimate end game is PVP, GVG, Shard v shard)

Yep.
Shooters focus on expanding content that allows you to shoot things :). Since a lot of people enjoy going up against other real players, they simply expand upon the PVP to keep the content fresh. Plus as you pointed out Trion has clearly stated this is a MMO shooter (MMOTPS) and not a MMORPG. It is kind of scary that a month later even after Trion posted this people still think it is a MMORPG. That would be like me thinking Mario is a RPG instead of a platformer.

Finally, not all successful MMORPGs have raids. GW2 has no raids and per Arenanet, is doing well post-launch. In fact, instead of layoffs like many recent companies launching MMOs, Arenanet has been hiring since September.

dalendria
05-02-2013, 08:48 AM
Yes, I have found myself playing a lot longer in the evening than I care to admit. Still need one Lightning Archer :(

I see lots of people on.

Something must be right.

What I find odd is that I see people playing early in the morning. I sometimes have insomnia and will play games between 3-5 am est. I have consistently run into players at that time on North American server.

I know my excuse what is yours. lol

RegularX
05-02-2013, 08:55 AM
What I find odd is that I see people playing early in the morning. I sometimes have insomnia and will play games between 3-5 am est. I have consistently run into players at that time on North American server.

I know my excuse what is yours. lol


Right? I was on both early and late yesterday (pesky work in between) - and didn't have any problem jumping into coop or PvP.

Also, let's remember some players have clocked hundreds of hours in the game's first month. The game has issues, but entertaining people doesn't seem like the problem some of the MMO-fans are making it out to be.

ironhands
05-02-2013, 09:04 AM
One thing I love about this game that really has nothing to do with the game... I see so many old EQ players here!! Means I'm in the right place!..

Also, I was a Wizard on Firiona Vie for the very reasons you mentioned... It was well.. Profitable to say the least and convenient ... Made lots of cleric friends =p..

Eventually EverQuest felt the impact WoW was having and tried to cater to the same style of players... The very reason I left.

I see Defiance and EQ Next in my future for the long haul.. Use to be UT99 and EQ...

EQ Question: Who remembers that old cave between those plains where people use to sit and trade.. I think we called it the commons or something.. west commons? I don't remember.. Been so long

RP server=craziest economy LOL
I miss my wizzy nukes.

Reiter
05-02-2013, 09:08 AM
EQ Question: Who remembers that old cave between those plains where people use to sit and trade.. I think we called it the commons or something.. west commons? I don't remember.. Been so long

East commons tunnel, anywhere between the three(?) torches. West commons was the other zone that had Griffons and Befallen (the pre-Guk zone, had three levels)...also lead to Kithcor forest (remember the night time running? Hated it, even when I got to 65 and stopped playing the game way back when...still got Harm Touched many,many times running my *** off from one end to the other and almost died).

OrpheusXI
05-02-2013, 09:11 AM
Guy doesn't even know what he's talking about, Lol.

Eisberg
05-02-2013, 09:13 AM
the weapons and other gear do not have a real progression like other mmos. Because of this, there is no real difficult PvE/Coop because no weapon or gear will progress to help with the increase difficulty

In fact, you do not need Gear progression to makes thing more difficult/challenging, Gear progression is just a gating mechanism and is completely independent of difficulty. Difficulty/challenge is made by the design of the encounter itself.

Elric1
05-02-2013, 09:14 AM
My feeling is Some players never learn and every MMO rush to the Endgame thats never there at launch.

Amen. I just accept that most players want to babysi their short attentive span and that every comapny will fail their made up 'needs' No one can sate immaturity.

ironhands
05-02-2013, 09:15 AM
East commons tunnel, anywhere between the three(?) torches. West commons was the other zone that had Griffons and Befallen (the pre-Guk zone, had three levels)...also lead to Kithcor forest (remember the night time running? Hated it, even when I got to 65 and stopped playing the game way back when...still got Harm Touched many,many times running my *** off from one end to the other and almost died).

Kithicor scared me the first few times, people warned me I'd be KoS behind a human, except I was neutral so no probs :P

I remember sneaking out to the first toll booth, and the oasis. still remember the first time i found the PoK book in freeport, and my first trips to luclin. so much nostalgia

Elric1
05-02-2013, 09:18 AM
Lets give them thier due... thanks to wow.. no one makes the hard mmos like eq1 etc anymore. Now everything is dumbed down, bland and hardly any stories... at least not like they had back in the day.

So support the few and accept little money or accept the many playstyle get alot of money and ignore people crying about it not being hard enough? Seriously before LFr in wow they said maybe 3% got to enjoy end game content. You really think the devs are stupid enough to support ONLY that 3%. Um nope. I mean you want hardcore they should just make certain arkfalls instanced and allow clans to go beat mobs twice the level end game content is now for some unique colored rewards and call it a day. There is not enough hardcore to cater to them.

Elric1
05-02-2013, 09:20 AM
One thing I love about this game that really has nothing to do with the game... I see so many old EQ players here!! Means I'm in the right place!..

Also, I was a Wizard on Firiona Vie for the very reasons you mentioned... It was well.. Profitable to say the least and convenient ... Made lots of cleric friends =p..

Eventually EverQuest felt the impact WoW was having and tried to cater to the same style of players... The very reason I left.

I see Defiance and EQ Next in my future for the long haul.. Use to be UT99 and EQ...

EQ Question: Who remembers that old cave between those plains where people use to sit and trade.. I think we called it the commons or something.. west commons? I don't remember.. Been so long

East commons was the area before the cave that would take player to the desert of ro used for trading in the old days. Started EQ with Lucien and played a Vah Shir bard on Fennen Ro named Realmreaver.

Ahundredsuns
05-02-2013, 09:24 AM
SWTOR had raids....and it was still bad.

As for scaling AI difficulty depending on various player attributes: It's a great idea. But right now I feel as if the AI DPS is OP as shtako; mainly Raiders.

I have a 1700 capacity shield with a 40% recharge rate at 2.5 seconds - and I still get owned by a mob of raiders 70% of the time.

BUT I can live with this because it makes it so I actually have to dodge and run around for a couple of minutes rather than just standing there and annihilating all baddies in a matter of seconds.

But I have absolutely no problem with survivability in a co-op game or doing random emergencies with one or two other peoples, so I would say scale those instances.

I'm also a narwhal.

maxila
05-02-2013, 11:16 AM
You cant just luanch a MMO and not have raids as endgame. Dailys are not and never will be endgame. 9 out of 10 failed MMO's would still be running and making money with subs if they had just remembered this one little rule.

No Raids no players

(casuals never have and never will make a winning MMO)

Seriously? I quit playing MMO’s for years because of raids and in WOW I was a key member of one of the top raid guilds on our server when doing the top dungeons were a lot harder than today. No raids are exactly what I want and why I’m playing this game. I would never argue individual players preference on this; however I would argue your arsine assumption that raids are what ALL or the majority of players want.

It is more reasonable to argue the lower player base is due to the many bugs at launch which caused the across board poor reviews by professional reviewers. I personally love the game, yet I would like to see more incoming content in the near future. If raids become the endgame in Defiance I will definitely stop playing it.

I have no desire to do the tank, healer, dps raid crap with 25 plus people ever again!

alpharougewarx
05-02-2013, 11:19 AM
Pretty much my thoughts. ^

you and me both XD

Rasczak
05-02-2013, 11:23 AM
What on earth are you smoking? WoW is entirely catered to casuals and is the most successful MMO in history. And don't give me that "Vanilla WoW was hardcore" argument, because Vanilla WoW is for pansies compared to EverQuest (it's only competition when WoW released).

Not only WoW, but City of Heroes as well. As a matter of fact, CoH launched April 2004 (WoW in November 2004) and catered purely to casuals before Blizzard actually entered the market. Meanwhile Everquest 2 was more hardcore by design when it launched (a week or so before WoW), and it completely failed to gain significant traction heading into 2005. Vanguard, another hardcore MMO by its own marketing, failed to gain any traction. If hardcore players drive a game's success, than EQ2 should have eventually pulled ahead of WoW in 2005, before SOE changed the game to be more casual in a hope of grabbing WoW's players.

But guess what? City of Heroes lasted 8 years. And lasted 7 years before it even touched the free-to-play option. Which is even more substantial, considering that superheroes have, and always will be, a niche market (and I say this as someone who writes them as part of his living).

Vanilla-WoW was harder than today's WoW, sure. But even Blizzard said that the changes happened because less than 10% of their playerbase was actually seeing/running that hard content. It was a waste of development resources in the long run. That means, by their datamining, that 90% or more of WoW players were not the hardcore raiders.

Hardcores have not significantly sustained an MMO for almost a decade. What made MMOs fail in the past several years (AoC, WAR, Aion, DCUO, SWTOR, et cetera) was not whether it was casual or hardcore, but the layers of MMO design they blatantly missed just to rush a product to market.

The main problem is that an MMO cannot compete with the market as it was in 2004. It must compete with the market as it is in the year it launches. While the hardcore fans of any MMO can forum-defend it with: "Well, game-x didn't have those features or content at launch," the argument is invalid when looking at consumer expectations and market share. New MMOs have the deck stacked against them because they have to compete with the older MMO as they stand at the time the new game launches.

That is also a major reason why no recent MMO has been able to touch WoW's market share, and a vast majority of them are in free-to-play hybrid mode just to survive. The required investment is prohibitive to launch an MMO that could compete with the content and features of a 2013 MMO market. But yet, it must be competitive!

Yes, it was much easier in 2003 or 2004, when there were barely a handful of MMOs out there and the market was much smaller. This isn't 2003 or 2004, though, and the market is much, much larger. You can't launch a shallow content game, never mind a shallow content bug ridden game, and expect to retain players at launch. Not with as wide as the market is, and the sheer number of MMO options out there.

QuikFoX3a
05-02-2013, 11:40 AM
In fact, you do not need Gear progression to makes thing more difficult/challenging, Gear progression is just a gating mechanism and is completely independent of difficulty. Difficulty/challenge is made by the design of the encounter itself.

They go hand in hand really.

For instance you fight whatever Mini Boss in whatever MMO, said boss does an attack that does X amount of DMG unless you either;

A: Have enough HP to take the hit and still live. (Gear Progression on both you and your group's Healer)
B: Avoid the attack completely by Dodging or Interrupting the attack. (You and your groups Player Skill plays into this)
C: Use an Ability or Perk to reduce or avoid the DMG. (Character/Class Progression for you and your group)

Sure you can do the content in White Level 1 (starter) gear if you want with no Training, Talents or Perks. However that would just make it insanely hard for no reason other then bragging rights. Ideally you want a balance of all three for a successful PvE encounter, however I've yet to see anything "difficult" in Defiance.

That's just my view on it though.

ironhands
05-02-2013, 11:49 AM
They go hand in hand really.

For instance you fight whatever Mini Boss in whatever MMO, said boss does an attack that does X amount of DMG unless you either;

player hp+gear/level creep < boss dmg+gear/level creep compensation is pretty much the simplest formula for it, especially when you assume gear/level creep = gear/level creep compensation

In most MMORPG i've played, the creep is so massive that even the weakest thing in current content will 1-shot you, and that is certainly what's appealing about Defiance, in theory.

In practice, we'd like a challenge. While it's great that many people can come in and appreciate the game regardless of skill and time played/gear acquired, many of us find it very trivial.

Eisberg
05-02-2013, 11:55 AM
They go hand in hand really.

For instance you fight whatever Mini Boss in whatever MMO, said boss does an attack that does X amount of DMG unless you either;

A: Have enough HP to take the hit and still live. (Gear Progression on both you and your group's Healer)


But that is the thing, the encounter is being balanced around that X gear they expect you to get from X, it is only being used as a gate. Lets say all gear at max level is the same in "gear level" they can make that mini boss hit for X amount based on that gear. So your 'A' Point is just showing the gating from gear progression, and not actual challenge/difficulty. They can make that boss fight just as challenging with Tier 1 gear as they would with Tier 12 gear.

the point is, the person I was responding to said that without gear progression no encounter can be challenging, which is in fact false, cause gear have nothing to do with the challenge, it is only used as a way to gate the content.


So what we need to be asking for is more challenging content, and gear gating is not needed to make challenging content.