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BLOODMODE
01-04-2013, 03:34 PM
I have been a few days into Alpha and have to say this game is amazing. The creativity of the developers is astonishing and feels like a high class game.

Marrying this MMO with a TV show is also a great business model. That does depend on a few things...

Does SyFy share ad revenue with the game developers? If so, that should keep the machine turning for awhile, especially if the show is a hit.

The biggest obstacle for new games is maintaining cash flow. Unfortunately most games compromise their integrity by introducing pay to win models or neglecting balancing because of the effort and money it would take to fix what is broken. People then simply leave the game because their pleas fall on deaf ears.

Hopefully the game is F2P (free to play). Going with another monthly subscription like RIFT would be dooming the game for failure. Population will be determined based on old blood staying and new blood coming in. A lot of the trickle in will be from the show. Those will be casual gamers not looking to cough up more money on top of their $120/mo average cable bill.

Any input on this?

Shepard
01-04-2013, 03:47 PM
We pretty much already know it won't be f2p. (You can preorder the game already.)

I hope they go with the Guild Wars model. That means you buy the game but there are no monthly costs. I much prefer this because i don't feel obligated to play just because I know I'm paying for it.

They could do it like Guild Wars 2, only charge for the initial game and then sell some stuff in a shop. In GW2 all you can buy is skins (some that are not available through gameplay, thats OK since they don't have stats and are applied "on top of" other items. The other item's appearance is overridden in the process.) They also sell XP boosters and stuff like that, which is fine and far from P2W.

BLOODMODE
01-04-2013, 03:52 PM
We pretty much already know it won't be f2p. (You can preorder the game already.)

I hope they go with the Guild Wars model. That means you buy the game but there are no monthly costs. I much prefer this because i don't feel obligated to play just because I know I'm paying for it.

They could do it like Guild Wars 2, only charge for the initial game and then sell some stuff in a shop. In GW2 all you can buy is skins (some that are not available through gameplay, thats OK since they don't have stats and are applied "on top of" other items. The other item's appearance is overridden in the process.) They also sell XP boosters and stuff like that, which is fine and far from P2W.

I like this. I can certainly cough up $50 bucks one time, but don't expect me to churn out $15 a month. Sometimes I go on hiatus and I want to be able to come back and play for a weekend or something without having to re-up. Perfect way to get people addicted, and it's unhealthy. I refuse to play any game with a monthly fee.

Besides games that have monthly fees at the moment are flopping left and right. The new model is F2P with a cash shop for cosmetics or non-game altering items.

squidgod2000
01-04-2013, 03:56 PM
I have been a few days into Alpha and...

...have already broken the NDA. Well done.

To answer your question, the game will be B2P with DLC and an optional sub (which includes the DLC and likely some othr perks).

Krazee DD
01-04-2013, 04:52 PM
...have already broken the NDA. Well done.

To answer your question, the game will be B2P with DLC and an optional sub (which includes the DLC and likely some othr perks).

Where did you get "Optional Sub" from?

BLOODMODE
01-04-2013, 05:08 PM
Where did you get "Optional Sub" from?

Planetside 2 has an optional sub which grants you an XP bonus and exclusive access to new cosmetic gear for a limited time. Also grants you a small amount of "station cash" for the month.

Shepard
01-04-2013, 05:36 PM
...have already broken the NDA. Well done.

To answer your question, the game will be B2P with DLC and an optional sub (which includes the DLC and likely some othr perks).

Actually, i just asked on the livestream. They don't talk about it yet, but there will be an announcement "soon".

Edit: Also, i would be totally fine with an optional membership the way Planetside 2 does it. It's neat to have it but certainly not a huge advantage.

In short: Look at Guild Wars 2 and Planetside 2 for how to do it.

Krazee DD
01-04-2013, 05:57 PM
Planetside 2 has an optional sub which grants you an XP bonus and exclusive access to new cosmetic gear for a limited time. Also grants you a small amount of "station cash" for the month.

Ok........PS2 is also F2P. This is a whole different game. PS2 isn't even a Trion game?

I'm trying to figure out where he got the "Optional Sub" from because all I have ever read has been community speculation.

Shepard
01-04-2013, 05:59 PM
Ok........PS2 is also F2P. This is a whole different game. PS2 isn't even a Trion game?

I'm trying to figure out where he got the "Optional Sub" from because all I have ever read has been community speculation.

As i said earlier, there is nothing concrete about this topic at all yet. They just said it again on the stream. They will announce the specifics soon.

Krazee DD
01-04-2013, 06:01 PM
As i said earlier, there is nothing concrete about this topic at all yet. They just said it again on the stream. They will announce the specifics soon.

That's literally what I just said.

BLOODMODE
01-04-2013, 07:12 PM
...have already broken the NDA. Well done.

To answer your question, the game will be B2P with DLC and an optional sub (which includes the DLC and likely some othr perks).

Maybe I should post a video about it.

JellyBean
01-04-2013, 07:19 PM
The B2P with optional Sub is the "hybrid" model they said they are leaning towards. If you read some of the Meeting the Dev interviews I think its Nathan Richardsson than talks about it.

Shepard
01-05-2013, 04:06 AM
That's literally what I just said.

:/ Sorry, that happens when it's too late and my reading comprehension goes to bed before the rest of me does.

squidgod2000
01-05-2013, 04:37 AM
Where did you get "Optional Sub" from?


ZAM: Have you chosen a monetization model yet?

Hill: We haven’t picked one 100% yet, but we’re looking at a boxed product, so you’ll go to the store and you’ll buy it, or potentially download it through something like PSN. And then you have a choice – it’s dual – where you can decide “I want to pick things and pay for them piecemeal”, or “I can pick a subscription, and get all of that stuff as I go, and get all of the DLC free as long as I’m subscribed.” So that’s kind of the model we’re looking at. Like I said, it’s not a 100%, but that’s where we’re shifting toward.

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=31361

Fiancee
01-05-2013, 06:11 AM
Nice to hear, I also think theres lots of potential in Trion World, thats why Im still playing Rift and gave it that extra love. :cool:

Tsubakixv
01-05-2013, 07:02 PM
I'm really... let me emphasize... REALLY not a fan of being forced to pay for content when it should just be regular content updates. Now if these supposed "DLC" are full fledged expansions sure but if they're only say 1 dungeon and a raid then heck no. It simply isn't good to segregate the already niche community between who has the DLC and who doesn't. Just do what Guild Wars 2 does, BTP, all content updates are free but full expansions are $30 with a convenience or cosmetic cash shop. I can understand throwing on an optional sub for access to experience boosters and other perks but nothing game breaking. Just please don't charge for content it doesn't work.

Krazee DD
01-05-2013, 07:40 PM
I'm really... let me emphasize... REALLY not a fan of being forced to pay for content when it should just be regular content updates. Now if these supposed "DLC" are full fledged expansions sure but if they're only say 1 dungeon and a raid then heck no. It simply isn't good to segregate the already niche community between who has the DLC and who doesn't. Just do what Guild Wars 2 does, BTP, all content updates are free but full expansions are $30 with a convenience or cosmetic cash shop. I can understand throwing on an optional sub for access to experience boosters and other perks but nothing game breaking. Just please don't charge for content it doesn't work.

Totally agree. I can't even stand micro transactions. Give me a full game.

$60 is getting harder and harder to come by these days and when I throw that down to get a shell of a game, is so frustrating, it makes me not want to support any developer.

squidgod2000
01-05-2013, 08:42 PM
Totally agree. I can't even stand micro transactions. Give me a full game.

$60 is getting harder and harder to come by these days and when I throw that down to get a shell of a game, is so frustrating, it makes me not want to support any developer.

What's a "full game" when it comes to MMOs? The games are designed to be open-ended and the genre survives on consistent content updates, which obviously aren't free. You can pay a sub, buy DLC or buy full-fledged expansions, but you've got to pay for those extra years of development at some point.

Good things cost money.

Atheosis
01-05-2013, 09:24 PM
Based on the pre-order thing I'm thinking it's going to be sold standard retail with an in-game store selling vanity upgrades. Hopefully they don't also have a subscription. Having to buy the game and pay a subscription would absolutely kill this game. If it's only $60 up front and gets positive reviews and good word of mouth it could do well. We shall see.

Shadinaxx
01-06-2013, 12:12 AM
Based on the pre-order thing I'm thinking it's going to be sold standard retail with an in-game store selling vanity upgrades. Hopefully they don't also have a subscription. Having to buy the game and pay a subscription would absolutely kill this game. If it's only $60 up front and gets positive reviews and good word of mouth it could do well. We shall see.

If you go back an read through the developer diaries and updates, they clearly state that the game follows the TV series, and there will be "micro updates" after the episode is aired. Will these be something you have to purchase? I doubt it, that would involve them having to instance the entire world, making you change "instances" or zones every couple of minutes, which has shown in the past, something that breaks immersion. Immersion is a very high priority for these developers.

What people are forgetting, is that this may be console native, but it's an MMO... As an MMO, it follows the criteria of PC based games that have been curb stomping sales on console games (with the exception of a VERY few franchises). Successful MMOs have been for the most part, subscription based, what makes them successful is a fluid, ongoing storyline that ties every aspect of the game into this storyline, be is pvp, crafting, roleplaying or pve.

Using a successful MMO layout for what you get in a subscription is:

1) Regular content updates (think of it as a book, and content updates are the chapters, at the end of the book, you buy the next in the series, aka "expansion").

2) Near 100% "uptime" and when there is offline time, it is usually(tm) due to server side patching, or some unforseeable event, in which case, a successful MMO company keeps it's playerbase informed, and occassionaly credits subscription time.

3) Customer support, both in game and out. Ever try to contact customer support on a "free" mmo? lol

4) Technical support, both in game and out. See #3.

5) Community. You may not think this is important, but a strong community is the backbone to an MMO. A well run, well written storyline with feedback and interaction with the community is what allows the game to grow.


Now I wanna ask, before anyone jumps on the "free to play amigaw" bandwagon, is: Do you know how Trion works? Do you think Trion is successful? Have you looked into Trion's past marketting plans?

I can sympathize with consoles and their having to pay bills. We PC people do it too, are we PC people of an archaic mindset? Let me put your xbox/ps3 up against an average PC benchmark, on graphics alone. We welcome you to our world, dont tell us how the consoles run, most of us have them, collecting dust, except when we wanna play halo or something else that doesnt have much in the pc market.

TL;DR: You have a choice: pay what you want to pay after the initial purchase, or sub up. It's not a wallet warrior model. You WONT get a AAA title with a dynamic world and MMO interaction for 5 bucks. This is not Guild Wars 2. It's a bit more complex than sword an board hack and slash. I can run a private server of GW2 on a tablet. I dont wanna think of the amount of CPU this game takes to run on a server.

I have no problems paying a sub for this game, ontop of the initial title copy. Can it flop? Sure, but until we see it running for the first season (expansion), we wont know, but a sub wont "kill" the game.

Shadinaxx
01-06-2013, 12:26 AM
Back on topic:


I have been a few days into Alpha and have to say this game is amazing. The creativity of the developers is astonishing and feels like a high class game.

Marrying this MMO with a TV show is also a great business model. That does depend on a few things...

Does SyFy share ad revenue with the game developers? If so, that should keep the machine turning for awhile, especially if the show is a hit.

The biggest obstacle for new games is maintaining cash flow. Unfortunately most games compromise their integrity by introducing pay to win models or neglecting balancing because of the effort and money it would take to fix what is broken. People then simply leave the game because their pleas fall on deaf ears.

Hopefully the game is F2P (free to play). Going with another monthly subscription like RIFT would be dooming the game for failure. Population will be determined based on old blood staying and new blood coming in. A lot of the trickle in will be from the show. Those will be casual gamers not looking to cough up more money on top of their $120/mo average cable bill.

Any input on this?

The hybrid model the developers mentioned would allow the casual gamers to play with minimal cost (goto the store, buy the game like any other console game, and play), then if they really get hooked an get into the game, they can either spend a couple bucks here an there to open up certain areas/content/whatever it is, or go full on an sub up to get it all.

I dont know, havent gotten any confirmation if your account will be LOCKED when you dont have a sub of some form, I think that if you have no active subscription, that you have access to whatever it is that you have unlocked via micro transactions or whatnot. I dont know how they would work that, to prevent someone from subbing one month to unlock everything, then not subbing again until there's enough to unlock by subbing another month. It may end up similer to the SWTOR model, where subs get a monthly allowance of premium currency, that they can use to permenantly unlock features, or use on specialty cosmetics while their active sub keeps the features available for as long as there's an active sub.


Wait and see I guess, lol

Fiancee
01-06-2013, 04:10 AM
Totally agree. I can't even stand micro transactions. Give me a full game.

$60 is getting harder and harder to come by these days and when I throw that down to get a shell of a game, is so frustrating, it makes me not want to support any developer.


I'm really... let me emphasize... REALLY not a fan of being forced to pay for content when it should just be regular content updates. Now if these supposed "DLC" are full fledged expansions sure but if they're only say 1 dungeon and a raid then heck no. It simply isn't good to segregate the already niche community between who has the DLC and who doesn't. Just do what Guild Wars 2 does, BTP, all content updates are free but full expansions are $30 with a convenience or cosmetic cash shop. I can understand throwing on an optional sub for access to experience boosters and other perks but nothing game breaking. Just please don't charge for content it doesn't work.

Yeah, that sub fee only start to sound good now? I dont honestly know MMO community needs to whine about everything, monthly fees are nothing, eat couple day noodles its there, and you play 1 month your game.

Really hope Titan and Elder Scroll Online follows the tratidional style.

Godwin
01-06-2013, 08:23 AM
I am a little concerned about the show.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that when I buy the game I get access to seeing the show at the same time as it airs in the US, because I am pretty certain it's pretty hard to get the Syfy channel here where I live.

Anyone ever hear anything about this?

Thanks.

Fiancee
01-06-2013, 09:41 AM
I am a little concerned about the show.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope that when I buy the game I get access to seeing the show at the same time as it airs in the US, because I am pretty certain it's pretty hard to get the Syfy channel here where I live.

Anyone ever hear anything about this?

Thanks.

Nothing to worry just check out www.syfy.com

Defiance is already there and full episodes... http://www.syfy.com/videos/Defiance/

As far I know Syfy is very good partner of Trion World, they used it to promote Rift too. I dont see any problems. Sub fee probably gives you access to show too.

Fiancee
01-06-2013, 09:51 AM
What bothers me about syfy.com you can only log in via FB, Twitter or Google+. I wouldnt actually be surprised if they send the show to your email.

Godwin
01-06-2013, 10:11 AM
Nothing to worry just check out www.syfy.com

Defiance is already there and full episodes... http://www.syfy.com/videos/Defiance/

As far I know Syfy is very good partner of Trion World, they used it to promote Rift too. I dont see any problems. Sub fee probably gives you access to show too.

Thanks that's a relief :) Guess it has happened just too often that we Europeans get shafted like that by American-based companies. Very good and glad to see it isn't the case here.

Fiancee
01-06-2013, 10:13 AM
Thanks that's a relief :) Guess it has happened just too often that we Europeans get shafted like that by American-based companies. Very good and glad to see it isn't the case here.

Really doubt they want to do that. If they want to be very user friendly they just send it to our email. ;)

I wonder how many episodes theres total, its weekly show, right. I'd hope at least 20.

squidgod2000
01-06-2013, 12:08 PM
Thanks that's a relief :) Guess it has happened just too often that we Europeans get shafted like that by American-based companies. Very good and glad to see it isn't the case here.

*shrug* Stateside the big complaint is that people can't see Downton Abbey until a year after it airs in England. Goes both ways.

Deathrow
01-06-2013, 12:26 PM
This game should be either Buy2play or P2P.

Krazee DD
01-06-2013, 03:27 PM
What's a "full game" when it comes to MMOs? The games are designed to be open-ended and the genre survives on consistent content updates, which obviously aren't free. You can pay a sub, buy DLC or buy full-fledged expansions, but you've got to pay for those extra years of development at some point.

Good things cost money.

I'm talking about gaming in general. Not just MMOs.

"good things cost money" sure, but when you pay money for a bad then another bad thing, you start to not buy that thing.

Atheosis
01-06-2013, 06:45 PM
What people are forgetting, is that this may be console native, but it's an MMO... As an MMO, it follows the criteria of PC based games that have been curb stomping sales on console games (with the exception of a VERY few franchises). Successful MMOs have been for the most part, subscription based, what makes them successful is a fluid, ongoing storyline that ties every aspect of the game into this storyline, be is pvp, crafting, roleplaying or pve.


The only MMO that has "curb stomped" console game sales is WoW. That's it. And no MMO shooter has ever been that successful. Period.

Tsubakixv
01-06-2013, 08:01 PM
Yeah, that sub fee only start to sound good now? I dont honestly know MMO community needs to whine about everything, monthly fees are nothing, eat couple day noodles its there, and you play 1 month your game.

Really hope Titan and Elder Scroll Online follows the tratidional style.

Whos whining? What I'm saying is if they choose to segregate the community and go down the horrid business model that is selling regular content updates as DLC it will fail period. I'm starting to think you didn't even read my post and if you did somehow misinterpreted it. What I said was do the BTP model with regular free content updates, add in a cash shop, tack on a sub if you're desperate and sell full fledged expansions for $30 or so. No where in my post did I complain about having to pay for something if it made sense but selling the game piece by piece does not make any sense especially when they're selling you the box which you should essentially be able to play forever.

Shadinaxx
01-07-2013, 12:33 AM
The only MMO that has "curb stomped" console game sales is WoW. That's it. And no MMO shooter has ever been that successful. Period.

I said with the exception of a very few console hits. You trying to tell me that Epic Mickey, Dante's Inferno, Bio Shock and others are better revenue than (let's exclude WoW, no arguements there) Rift, FFXI, Eve Online (which is worth more than WoW btw), CoH, EQ, EQ2, or a handful of other, lesser successful mmos?

Also, I never included successfull shooter, it's a new genre. My point was to argue that a sub will not kill a GOOD MMO, no matter the genre.