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View Full Version : Trions biggest mistake with Defiance, as I see it



MacDeath
05-06-2013, 12:50 AM
All 'content' in the game is too easy once you kill Nim the first time. There's not much left to do except to grind the same 'content' over and over until you hit 5000 ego.

And that's the real issue, as I see it. Trion didn't give us enough 'content' to keep people playing more than a few dozen hours. Then, to top it off, they haven't been able to add more 'content' JIT (Just in Time) before most players have eaten up the existing 'content'.

The game could live with those issues, IMO, IF it was easy for the players to make their own content. But, IMO, that's the BIGGEST mistake Trion made with Defiance. The tools to allow for the players to make their own fun are lacking.

What tools, you may ask. Well, Clans could organize raids, or Clan wars vs other Clans, or ... But, the clan management tools are mostly missing. Clan chat is iffy at best. Clans dont have the ability to declare war on other clans.

Some people don't want to be in Clans, but would still like to play with friends doing things that are more challenging than mobs designed for solo play. The in-game chat system issues makes it hard to organize and communicate. And, even if the players use and external chat such as TeamSpeak or Ventrilo, there are no mobs that offer challenge for group play.

I love the concept of Defiance and want to see the delivered game catch up to the potential. I know it's incredibly difficult to manage content roll out across three platforms and hold consistency with the TV series. I applaud Trion for even attempting something this challenging. Now add in the tools that allow the players to make our own fun and reap the rewards.

Schwa
05-06-2013, 12:53 AM
True enough, though I wouldn't limit it just to PVP-related content. The entire social side is categorically lacking, from clan wars to instances that are... cooperative.

I need to tell a friend, in PVE, "I'm pinned, shoot that sniper." We just don't need to do that anywhere in the game. The fact that simple thing is missing does more damage than the lack of raids or clan wars could ever do. Clan wars and raids would be built on this concept that the game would need to teach players before they got into that content.

What we have is just a tutorial of Defiance. Scaled down in every way to reach market as fast as possible. But we're missing the game itself.

That aside, it's possible to focus too much on clan-based content. I don't want to see this become a "clan required" game, just as I don't want it to remain "massively solo" as it is now. There's a balance somewhere in between this game really needs to find, and find quickly.

Note: Tabula Rasa and Earthrise both had "clan-based PVP" endgames. I strongly caution against going down this route exclusively. A hybrid tactic is necessary. I also caution against raiding without the stepping-stone (and teaching chance) of harder-mode co-op missions.

IGears
05-06-2013, 12:53 AM
totally agree

t4ko r33f
05-06-2013, 12:56 AM
U have a good point. Out of all the complaints I have seen this one I agree with, without thinking u havent played an mmo before.

diggergig
05-06-2013, 01:09 AM
They'll probably add: "I'm pinned, shoot that sniper!" to your list of emotes if you complain frequently enough. Give it a few months though. :p

A s0t
05-06-2013, 01:11 AM
What tools, you may ask. Well, Clans could organize raids, or Clan wars vs other Clans, or ... But, the clan management tools are mostly missing. Clan chat is iffy at best. Clans dont have the ability to declare war on other clans.


soooooon, does the soon thing that still a meme or did that die

Panthan
05-06-2013, 01:18 AM
Well said, cant think of anything to add.
Persistant chat windows maybe :P

Kronik
05-06-2013, 01:21 AM
Indeed have someone on the side working on the AI it really is a joke. Making them run around like tweakers with perfect aim in droves (zombie style) simply is not AI. I want to see flanking not hear the guy yell it out, I want our ego powers to have purpose ie someone has to cloak past and activate switch while overcharge and decoy players are needed elsewhere (not obligated but easier if you think of it), I want runners to be punished (wait unyil team extraction or for someone to take pity on you and revive), it would be soooooo AWESOME to fail a mission or boss fight you have no idea (tired of rewarding crappy play).

I think its important to mention that when the devs decided to make a TPS instead of a FPS they are almost required to have more content less grinding thats really the concept Ive noticed over the years, make us cover a teammate while he hacks a computer, chase down a convoy, recover hostages, save cities from RAIDER raids. Make these fights mean something and have a puzzle in the fight have a tactical group of enemies that do insane damage (only those that spec damage reduction will survive a barrage), make us think about the fights at the very least, how do we get to those snipers while grenadier is covering them.

Alas I am sad none of these things can be accomplished with the current AI !which doesnt even use cover)

P.S. I want enemies to have healers and crowd control in their numbers as well helps make us as players think. All were asking for is a challenge that in itself will create a more full experience IMO.

Strontium Dog
05-06-2013, 01:28 AM
In the land of MMO's you NEVER EVER give the customer a way of finishing the game. Unfortunately no one told Trions Kindergarten dev team (its not Rfit team ,cant be going by the errors).

Killing Nim is more or less the end. You can sure, head up to 5000,get all pursuits etc but in reality most will slacken off after seeing how the Nim stage is an end game move.

Its now very easy and foreseeable to reach the end of Defiance,5k isnt that far away,cop ops are all done by EGO300 and arkfalls are even less dynamic that rifts in Rift.

Really they need to stick the first DLC out there very very soon or they will find themselves left with a very small player base.

Daholic
05-06-2013, 01:31 AM
All 'content' in the game is too easy once you kill Nim the first time. There's not much left to do except to grind the same 'content' over and over until you hit 5000 ego.

And that's the real issue, as I see it. Trion didn't give us enough 'content' to keep people playing more than a few dozen hours. Then, to top it off, they haven't been able to add more 'content' JIT (Just in Time) before most players have eaten up the existing 'content'.

The game could live with those issues, IMO, IF it was easy for the players to make their own content. But, IMO, that's the BIGGEST mistake Trion made with Defiance. The tools to allow for the players to make their own fun are lacking.

What tools, you may ask. Well, Clans could organize raids, or Clan wars vs other Clans, or ... But, the clan management tools are mostly missing. Clan chat is iffy at best. Clans dont have the ability to declare war on other clans.

Some people don't want to be in Clans, but would still like to play with friends doing things that are more challenging than mobs designed for solo play. The in-game chat system issues makes it hard to organize and communicate. And, even if the players use and external chat such as TeamSpeak or Ventrilo, there are no mobs that offer challenge for group play.

I love the concept of Defiance and want to see the delivered game catch up to the potential. I know it's incredibly difficult to manage content roll out across three platforms and hold consistency with the TV series. I applaud Trion for even attempting something this challenging. Now add in the tools that allow the players to make our own fun and reap the rewards.

Oh! the clan situation???

Game needs parody!

MacDeath
05-06-2013, 01:35 AM
U have a good point. Out of all the complaints I have seen this one I agree with, without thinking u havent played an mmo before.
My first MMO was Ultima Online (UO) which I started as a beta tester back in the summer of '97. I went on to play UO for 5 years. During some of those years I was also playing DAoC, where I started as a beta tester in 2000. I still play DAoC. I have also played WoW, WAR, AoC, Rift, TSW & now Defiance.

Games I enjoy, I usually stay for years. Games I don't enjoy I rarely buy. I have lots of contacts in the industry so I often get invited to Alpha/Beta test games. That's one of the advantages of so many years living in the Silicon Valley. I was an Alpha tester on (among others) Hellgate London, Rift, and Defiance. I did NOT buy Hellgate London, it wasn't a game I was able to enjoy. I did buy both Rift and Defiance.

IGears
05-06-2013, 01:54 AM
soooooon, does the soon thing that still a meme or did that die

it died when they release the console betas.. i havent seen the same people that were here in January.

Schwa
05-06-2013, 02:24 AM
My first MMO was Ultima Online (UO) which I started as a beta tester back in the summer of '97. I went on to play UO for 5 years. During some of those years I was also playing DAoC, where I started as a beta tester in 2000. I still play DAoC. I have also played WoW, WAR, AoC, Rift, TSW & now Defiance.

Games I enjoy, I usually stay for years. Games I don't enjoy I rarely buy. I have lots of contacts in the industry so I often get invited to Alpha/Beta test games. That's one of the advantages of so many years living in the Silicon Valley. I was an Alpha tester on (among others) Hellgate London, Rift, and Defiance. I did NOT buy Hellgate London, it wasn't a game I was able to enjoy. I did buy both Rift and Defiance.

As an UO beta tester, did you witness the BURNING OF LORD BRITISH? I wish I could've been there.

MacDeath
05-06-2013, 03:05 AM
As an UO beta tester, did you witness the BURNING OF LORD BRITISH? I wish I could've been there.
Yes it was a riot! I asked him about it later. Richard G was playing the LB character as he often did in those early days (later they had other people play the character). He had forgotten to turn his God mode on! He didn't think he COULD be harmed. Well, live and learn.

I was in Austin helping our local sales rep with some sales calls back in the summer or '97. We finished our last scheduled call of the day and had a couple of hours to kill before my flight back to San Jose. So we decided to call on a prospect (that turned out to be OSI (Origin Systems Inc)). I started the conversation there by asking them to tell me what they did, so I could determine better how our offerings (servers & storage systems) could help them. They said, "We create worlds... and make games.". I replyed, "Oh, really. I'm a gamer." They asked me what games I played and I told them. One of the guys left the conference room and came back with a CD. He gave it to me and said, "Here. Test this." Yep, it was a UO beta CD. I turned to our Sales Rep and said, "Give em a system to test for us."

We did get a system to them. After it was installed, on the very next Sunday, they called our local CS and said the system is completely broken, it can not be repaired. Get us a replacement, and the clock starts NOW! Of course, it wasn't broken but they wanted to test our support infrastructure. They already knew that we could make systems that worked, but so could several other companies. We had an obligation to get them back up and running in no more than four hours. We pulled it off in under two hours. They decided the test was over and bought several systems.

I have two daughters who were teenagers back then. They helped me beta test. One of them had a character named Princess. She was wearing her princess costume and sitting on the throne in Lord British's castle. Some folks came in and asked to see LB. Thinking quickly, she said, "My father isn't here right now. If you are here to pay your taxes, I can take it for him." LoL "Taxes?" they asked. "Yes", she said. "Twenty % of all your gold." Yep, she is an adult these days and is a CFO in the Valley.

Schwa
05-06-2013, 03:13 AM
Yes it was a riot! I asked him about it later. Richard G was playing the LB character as he often did in those early days (later they had other people play the character). He had forgotten to turn his God mode on! He didn't think he COULD be harmed. Well, live and learn.

I was in Austin helping our local sales rep with some sales calls back in the summer or '97. We finished our last scheduled call of the day and had a couple of hours to kill before my flight back to San Jose. So we decided to call on a prospect (that turned out to be OSI (Origin Systems Inc)). I started the conversation there by asking them to tell me what they did, so I could determine better how our offerings (servers & storage systems) could help them. They said, "We create worlds... and make games.". I replyed, "Oh, really. I'm a gamer." They asked me what games I played and I told them. One of the guys left the conference room and came back with a CD. He gave it to me and said, "Here. Test this." Yep, it was a UO beta CD. I turned to our Sales Rep and said, "Give em a system to test for us."

We did get a system to them. After it was installed, on the very next Sunday, they called our local CS and said the system is completely broken, it can not be repaired. Get us a replacement, and the clock starts NOW! Of course, it wasn't broken but they wanted to test our support infrastructure. They already knew that we could make systems that worked, but so could several other companies. We had an obligation to get them back up and running in no more than four hours. We pulled it off in under two hours. They decided the test was over and bought several systems.

I have two daughters who were teenagers back then. They helped me beta test. One of them had a character named Princess. She was wearing her princess costume and sitting on the throne in Lord British's castle. Some folks came in and asked to see LB. Thinking quickly, she said, "My father isn't here right now. If you are here to pay your taxes, I can take it for him." LoL "Taxes?" they asked. "Yes", she said. "Twenty % of all your gold." Yep, she is an adult these days and is a CFO in the Valley.

Genius. The closest I've ever come to the man was a screenshot of General British with his pants off during the TR beta closure. It still circulates the internet from time to time-- if you see a Breck character taking the screenshot, totally me.

szul
05-06-2013, 06:17 AM
Killing Nim is more or less the end. You can sure, head up to 5000,get all pursuits etc but in reality most will slacken off after seeing how the Nim stage is an end game move.

Right here. I'm not one to do constant PvP. Don't really care for it. My goal for the game was to complete the main mission, complete the episode missions, complete the side missions, and complete the coop maps. I only have to beat Nim in the main mission, all side missions North of the Golden Gate are finished, and I've done three of the coop maps. Honestly, I don't pay much attention to pursuits or contracts. Whatever I complete in the course of the game is fine by me. My EGO is sitting around 650. I will admit that I have been grinding on the recent hellbug pursuits, but that is mostly for the novelty. Most of the added episode pursuits deal with hunting data recorders or doing new emergencies, and since I have finished all the side missions North of the GGB, I have no desire to ride around completed portions of the (unlabeled) map just looking for those elements. Ultimately, once I'm done with the pieces that I want to finish, I'm not going to grind just for 5K ego. I'll wait for DLC content.