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View Full Version : Is Defiance even Post-Apocalyptic?



ChaosOneX
05-24-2013, 04:31 AM
Here is the definition of Post-Apocalyptic from the Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction

Following a large-scale disaster in which civilization has been destroyed or has regressed to a more primitive level; (of a story) having such a setting.



The closest Defiance get's to this is the period during the pale wars, but from what I've read and seen in the show, the world has more in common with parts of Europe during WWII than a true Post-Apocalyptic setting. I mean, the EMC was recruiting troops and producing supplies right up until the end of the Pale Wars, when the EMC became the ER.

There is large scale trading, research and even arms production still going on in the world of Defiance. Government is about as developed as the frontier in the American Wild West, but it is there. But you know what, Defiance seems to be lending itself to that. It even calls the area we play in the Bay Area Frontier.

So for all you *******s saying we need bows because this is a Post-Apocalyptic setting, you are wrong. As wrong as Gearbox was in calling borderlands 1 post-apocalyptic.

Schmiznurf
05-24-2013, 04:35 AM
I don't think i've ever thought of it as post-apocalyptic, I don't understand why anyone would.

Barrik
05-24-2013, 04:47 AM
Saying it's post-apocalyptic in a literal sense probably is slightly off. But I'm no expert.

ChaosOneX
05-24-2013, 04:53 AM
Saying it's post-apocalyptic in a literal sense probably is slightly off. But I'm no expert.

I don't think it works even in the non to the word sense. Like I said, the closest it gets is Europe during WWII

Rand1701
05-24-2013, 05:13 AM
How about Post-Arkocalyptic?

Deimos
05-24-2013, 05:17 AM
Well the definition could help here:

1. Of or relating to an apocalypse.
2. Involving or portending widespread devastation or ultimate doom: "now speaks in apocalyptic terms about the probable conflict ahead" (Financial Times).
3. Characterized by usually exaggerated predictions of or allusions to a disastrous outcome: "Stripped of its apocalyptic tone, what this amounts to is an advocacy of teaching names, dates and places by rote" (Stefan Kanfer).
4. Of a revelatory or prophetic nature.

You could say the aftermath of the ark sabotage was apocalyptic, whole cities were devastated, the very continent was altered and millions would surely of died. Just because people survived doesn't mean it wasn't apocalyptic, and so post apocalyptic would suit the definition of Defiance.

Judgement Dave
05-24-2013, 05:18 AM
Following a large-scale disaster in which civilization has been destroyed or has regressed to a more primitive level; (of a story) having such a setting.

It's pretty clear that what I consider to be civilization has regressed from the current state. Post-apocalyptic fiction has never required a lack of technology.

Dave Blackwell
05-24-2013, 05:23 AM
Here is the definition of Post-Apocalyptic from the Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction

Following a large-scale disaster in which civilization has been destroyed or has regressed to a more primitive level; (of a story) having such a setting.


Your answer was quite literally staring you in the face the whole time, what I've highlighted is exactly what it is.

'Earth' in this game and/or the show cannot be considered normal due to the fighting and what not that occured, as humans essentially had to band together in order not to be killed off when the SHTF going by the logic of the lore (can't remember the link, but it's knocking about here somewhere). Due to what happened that cannot be considered not to be a large scale disaster as it was almost unpredictable.

ANTIDEAD
05-24-2013, 05:55 AM
You guys are way, way overthinking this. Just go with your gut. Are there ruined buildings everywhere? Do you roam a wasteland scavenging for supplies? Does the game contain raiders wearing football pad style armor? Can you compare the game world to Mad Max? Then yeah it's post apocalyptic.

Saying Borderlands isn't post apocalyptic is like saying Firefly isn't a western... technically you are correct, but also wrong.

ironhands
05-24-2013, 06:06 AM
Here is the definition of Post-Apocalyptic from the Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction

Following a large-scale disaster in which civilization has been destroyed or has regressed to a more primitive level; (of a story) having such a setting.



The closest Defiance get's to this is the period during the pale wars, but from what I've read and seen in the show, the world has more in common with parts of Europe during WWII than a true Post-Apocalyptic setting. I mean, the EMC was recruiting troops and producing supplies right up until the end of the Pale Wars, when the EMC became the ER.

There is large scale trading, research and even arms production still going on in the world of Defiance. Government is about as developed as the frontier in the American Wild West, but it is there. But you know what, Defiance seems to be lending itself to that. It even calls the area we play in the Bay Area Frontier.

So for all you *******s saying we need bows because this is a Post-Apocalyptic setting, you are wrong. As wrong as Gearbox was in calling borderlands 1 post-apocalyptic.

it's renaissance. post-post-apocalyptic

IGears
05-24-2013, 06:09 AM
You guys are way, way overthinking this. Just go with your gut. Are there ruined buildings everywhere? Do you roam a wasteland scavenging for supplies? Does the game contain raiders wearing football pad style armor? Can you compare the game world to Mad Max? Then yeah it's post apocalyptic.

Saying Borderlands isn't is like saying Firefly isn't a western... technically you are correct, but also wrong.

Borderlands isnt post apocalyptic because it on a whole different planet. And the only reason anyone is there in the first place was to mine resources.

jasper murtagh
05-24-2013, 07:08 AM
.? Does the game contain raiders wearing football pad style armor? Can you compare the game world to Mad Max? Then yeah it's post apocalyptic.

...

Ain't any valley girls in all white so ain't mad max.

Milo Talon
05-24-2013, 07:15 AM
You guys are way, way overthinking this. Just go with your gut. Are there ruined buildings everywhere? Do you roam a wasteland scavenging for supplies? Does the game contain raiders wearing football pad style armor? Can you compare the game world to Mad Max? Then yeah it's post apocalyptic.

Saying Borderlands isn't post apocalyptic is like saying Firefly isn't a western... technically you are correct, but also wrong.

I thought the whole point of forums is to overthink everything. :cool:

Nikola Tesla
05-24-2013, 07:19 AM
Wait, where did they say it was post-apocalyptic? I think I may have missed that. Seriously, I have never heard them say the show or game was based in post-apocalyptic times.

PostApoc
05-24-2013, 11:02 AM
To say I'm a huge fan of the post-apocalyptic genre would be an understatement. I run about five different sites devoted to the genre, with my main blog at Post-Apocalyptic.com.

IMHO, Defiance, both the game and tv show, are absolutely post-apocalyptic, of the post-alien invasion sub-genre. Not only are cities destroyed, but the physical geography of the world was uprooted. Society as we know it is gone, countries and governments don't exist, it's basically anarchy outside of the few towns that have managed to spring up again.

I'm really not a gamer at all (the only other shooters I've played are Borderlands 1 and 2), but I love Defiance so far, show and game.

Umbra Warrior
05-24-2013, 11:05 AM
It is post apocalyptic. It's after the apocalypse which was the Ark Fall event.

Shada Mori
05-24-2013, 11:08 AM
I would say its post-apoc yes with a twist ...human technology seems to have regressed some and society has fallen back into an agrarian style more similar to the middle ages with heavy farming, mining etc, however the addition of votan technology that came with the arks has offset some of that which is why it seems so muddled.

DaMaJaDiZ
05-24-2013, 11:11 AM
You guys are way, way overthinking this. Just go with your gut. Are there ruined buildings everywhere? Do you roam a wasteland scavenging for supplies? Does the game contain raiders wearing football pad style armor? Can you compare the game world to Mad Max? Then yeah it's post apocalyptic.

Saying Borderlands isn't post apocalyptic is like saying Firefly isn't a western... technically you are correct, but also wrong.

You've just described L.A during the 92 riots. No apocalypse needed to fill that definition.

Kessler
05-24-2013, 11:11 AM
The entire world is completely screwed by the unexpected activation of terraformers. Monsters, mutants and aliens dominate what used to be earth and only pockets of people remain in what has become a wild west type existence. How is that NOT post apocalyptic?

CHARL13 SH3EN
05-24-2013, 11:20 AM
Dystopian is the word you are looking for folks, Oxford dictionary states:
An imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one. Compare with Utopia. If you look back to the 80's:cool: When post apocalyptic movies ran in abundance. A lot where actually in fact a dystopian setting, yet we still labeled it post apocalypse. This, Ladies and Gents. Was done for the benefit of non fanboys! Its called lump summing. Holy SCHTAKO! BATMAN I can not believe this is even a thread. Picking apart much?

Jinto
05-24-2013, 11:20 AM
Nuclear Fallout and/or World War III does not have to happen for something to be called "Post-Apocalyptic" for me if modern civilization no longer exists than the world has gone to hell

do you see the places the people live in and the town of Defiance isnt St. Louis anymore so i would say alien war and millions of lives lost counts as you dont see too much human tech being used most of it is votan or modified votan tech

sQuinty
05-24-2013, 11:23 AM
Technology is only part of a civilization, and besides technology, how would you consider civilization to have progressed since the ark fall event?

Zeliska
05-24-2013, 11:24 AM
I think it's perfectly apocalyptic...not pre, not post...just right...:cool:

ChaosOneX
05-24-2013, 11:26 AM
Your answer was quite literally staring you in the face the whole time, what I've highlighted is exactly what it is.

'Earth' in this game and/or the show cannot be considered normal due to the fighting and what not that occured, as humans essentially had to band together in order not to be killed off when the SHTF going by the logic of the lore (can't remember the link, but it's knocking about here somewhere). Due to what happened that cannot be considered not to be a large scale disaster as it was almost unpredictable.

Here's a question, would you call the Killzone games Post-Apocalyptic?

What about WWII?

Yeah, a lot of bad stuff happened, and the world changed, but in no way was civilization destroyed. Same goes for Defiance.

ChaosOneX
05-24-2013, 11:31 AM
Dystopian is the word you are looking for folks, Oxford dictionary states: If you look back to the 80's:cool: When post apocalyptic movies ran in abundance. A lot where actually in fact a dystopian setting, yet we still labeled it post apocalypse. This, Ladies and Gents. Was done for the benefit of non fanboys! Its called lump summing. Holy SCHTAKO! BATMAN I can not believe this is even a thread. Picking apart much?

Nah, I'm just tired of people assuming that this is Post-Apocalyptic and thus, bows with the power of sniper rifles should be in the game.

CHARL13 SH3EN
05-24-2013, 11:40 AM
Nah, I'm just tired of people assuming that this is Post-Apocalyptic and thus, bows with the power of sniper rifles should be in the game.

They have been playing to much farcry3 Lol

ChaosOneX
05-24-2013, 11:46 AM
They have been playing to much farcry3 Lol

agreed

/10 char

Bored Peon
05-24-2013, 11:55 AM
Well if you pay attention to a few bits of info here and there..

St Louis area and San Fransisco area are major cities that were destroyed.

Cass mentions Deigo Keys, which I would assume San Diego area became a chain of islands. Most likely similar terraform destruction San Fran saw.

They mention New York in the last episode when the EReps arrived. Apparently from their comments after stepping out of the land coach it remained a major "civilized" city. So maybe it went untouched?

They also mentioned Brazil is the Votan capital area.

Then as we all know Antartica is allegedly sandy beaches now.

Its not the lack of technology or civilization, it is the lack of quantity that makes it post apocalyptic.

Ichidakiller
05-24-2013, 12:00 PM
Well considering that SF is a city filled with millions and only a few building are left standing and the population is down to a mere several thousands at best... Pretty much apocalyptic proportion.

Again Saint Luis is now devastated and left abandoned and completely underground and pretty damn apocalyptic imo.

ironhands
05-24-2013, 12:12 PM
They have been playing to much farcry3 Lol

Or Blood Dragon! NEON BOW!

In all seriousness, Blood Dragon is an amazing game.

CHARL13 SH3EN
05-24-2013, 01:00 PM
Or Blood Dragon! NEON BOW!

In all seriousness, Blood Dragon is an amazing game.

Schtako yeah it is

Ryme
05-24-2013, 01:11 PM
It is post-Votan-apocalyptic, since all their worlds are gone.

Ensu
05-24-2013, 01:51 PM
Comes under "changed world", I would've thought. Post-apocalyptic fiction is typified by scarcity of various resources (food, fuel, fertile land/people) and a severe population decline. The world of Defiance is rich with resources, has plenty of active farmland and advanced technologies to make life easier for the common housewife.

Igneus
05-24-2013, 02:38 PM
Does Dairy Queen still exist? No? Then that's post-apocalyptic to me. Any planet where I can't get a Blizzard is stone age in my book.

ANTIDEAD
05-24-2013, 09:08 PM
Borderlands isnt post apocalyptic because it on a whole different planet. And the only reason anyone is there in the first place was to mine resources.

Yeah but that's just a technicality. Borderlands oozes influence from fallout, Mad Max references everywhere, much of the landscape is desert, people with mohawks are riding dune buggies around, and the game world is completely run down. To say it's not post apocalyptic is ignoring the spirit of the game in my opinion

Arsenic_Touch
05-24-2013, 09:15 PM
Billions died during the terraforming process. More died during the pale wars. The earth was completely changed, cities demolished. Technologies were lost, society crumbled. Resources were scarce. How does that not fit the genre? do you think they just magically went from the arkfall, pale wars to what we see in the show?

You do realize that you can put things back together after a post apocalyptic event, right?

They actually wanted to have horses, instead of vehicles but because the developers couldn't get it to work, they scrapped the idea.

So your argument against bows is pure hogwash.

Anderson
05-24-2013, 09:19 PM
Dystopian is the word you are looking for folks, Oxford dictionary states:

An imagined place or state in which everything is unpleasant or bad, typically a totalitarian or environmentally degraded one. Compare with Utopia.

If you look back to the 80's:cool: When post apocalyptic movies ran in abundance. A lot where actually in fact a dystopian setting, yet we still labeled it post apocalypse. This, Ladies and Gents. Was done for the benefit of non fanboys! Its called lump summing. Holy SCHTAKO! BATMAN I can not believe this is even a thread. Picking apart much?

Usually when I think of a Dystopia though, it's usually in the form of a cautionary tale about where the author is concerned society is going. Such as 1984 (hyper-fascism) or Brave New World (super materialism).

MacDeath
05-24-2013, 09:56 PM
Well considering that SF is a city filled with millions and only a few building are left standing and the population is down to a mere several thousands at best... Pretty much apocalyptic proportion.

Again Saint Luis is now devastated and left abandoned and completely underground and pretty damn apocalyptic imo.
San Francisco has never had a population of "millions", in fact it has never even reached ONE million. The pop in 2010:
with a population of 805,235 as of the 2010 Census. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco

I do agree that we're in a Post Apocalyptic world in the Defiance universe.

Ichidakiller
05-25-2013, 03:22 AM
San Francisco has never had a population of "millions", in fact it has never even reached ONE million. The pop in 2010:
with a population of 805,235 as of the 2010 Census. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco

I do agree that we're in a Post Apocalyptic world in the Defiance universe.

Well actually live in the bay area.

SF is tech only the section in the south where dark matter is. Now you factor everything that most people consider SF Bay which would include Marin, Sausalito etc etc you factor in their population your taking about millions.

SF Bay area census 2000-2010. 7,002,425 .... Now considering what most locals consider the bay area which also includes Oakland, Berkley, San Jose, Palo Alto and San Mateo just to name the big ones. I state again bay area looks to have lost millions yes I understand we have yet to see some of these areas. But unless they make some MASSIVE hub city that is likely to remain the case. That is pretty apocalyptic proportions.

MacDeath
05-25-2013, 03:52 AM
Well actually live in the bay area.

SF is tech only the section in the south where dark matter is. Now you factor everything that most people consider SF Bay which would include Marin, Sausalito etc etc you factor in their population your taking about millions.

SF Bay area census 2000-2010. 7,002,425 .... Now considering what most locals consider the bay area which also includes Oakland, Berkley, San Jose, Palo Alto and San Mateo just to name the big ones. I state again bay area looks to have lost millions yes I understand we have yet to see some of these areas. But unless they make some MASSIVE hub city that is likely to remain the case. That is pretty apocalyptic proportions.
I have lived in the Bay Area for many years (but never in the City) and I know the Bay Area has millions. I was responding to your "Well considering that SF is a city filled with millions" where you were talking about the city's pop.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 03:56 AM
Billions died during the terraforming process. More died during the pale wars. The earth was completely changed, cities demolished. Technologies were lost, society crumbled. Resources were scarce. How does that not fit the genre? do you think they just magically went from the arkfall, pale wars to what we see in the show?

You do realize that you can put things back together after a post apocalyptic event, right?

They actually wanted to have horses, instead of vehicles but because the developers couldn't get it to work, they scrapped the idea.

So your argument against bows is pure hogwash.

What technologies were lost?

and you are aware that there was (and still is) weapon, equipment, food, armor, vehicle, ammo, etc production during the Pale Wars? I mean according to the tumbler, the EMC built over 40 nuke reactor plants in the years leading up to, and during the pale wars.

The feel I got from the stories of the pale wars, contested areas had more in common with areas of Europe post WWII than the end of the world. I mean, would you call Killzone post apocalyptic? Keep in mind, the EMC and VC were active right up to the end, when the EMC became the Earth Republic. There wasn't a period of total destabilization for either the EMC or VC.

With the amount of fighting going on, it's highly unlikely that ammo would become a precious commodity. Guns and ammo would be fairly easy to procure, so my argument about bows still stands.

Ichidakiller
05-25-2013, 04:10 AM
I have lived in the Bay Area for many years (but never in the City) and I know the Bay Area has millions. I was responding to your "Well considering that SF is a city filled with millions" where you were talking about the city's pop.

Hiw to you get population out of "filled with millions" Just because they dont sleep within city limit doesnt mean theirs not more then 2million in the city on any given day. People do comute to and from SF each day. You know jobs, sporting events concerts etc etc. I dont know about you but to me filled with millions doesnt mean population, just mean exactly what it says filled with millions....now if I meant population I would have said "SF is a city populated with million....but I didn't....now this is very simple to see.... Look at traffic in the mornings and evenings heading into SF in the morning the traffic is horrible, now in tue evening heading home...it the opposite and leaving town is the worst.

Ichidakiller
05-25-2013, 04:34 AM
What technologies were lost?

and you are aware that there was (and still is) weapon, equipment, food, armor, vehicle, ammo, etc production during the Pale Wars? I mean according to the tumbler, the EMC built over 40 nuke reactor plants in the years leading up to, and during the pale wars.

The feel I got from the stories of the pale wars, contested areas had more in common with areas of Europe post WWII than the end of the world. I mean, would you call Killzone post apocalyptic? Keep in mind, the EMC and VC were active right up to the end, when the EMC became the Earth Republic. There wasn't a period of total destabilization for either the EMC or VC.

With the amount of fighting going on, it's highly unlikely that ammo would become a precious commodity. Guns and ammo would be fairly easy to procure, so my argument about bows still stands.

Technologies lost. We are watching the same show right.... I mean so far we have mining, a ***** house, old cars, few Sci fi military like buggies/jeep things one dodge and a couple old school cadilacs and I think I seen a light blue Buick. The tech seems to be mostly if alien design or some connection to alien tech. I mean .....i dont see any ipads, laptops, even the comunication devices. Some weird flip phone looking like a star trek com... I can think I can say with confidence there was a few technologys lost when the war happened and leveled the only two cities we have seen so far.

Basing your idea that because the two military organizations are still mainly intact means nothing. Look at the people. USA right now could lose every single American city and the military would still be riding around in tanks and hummers. The people would all be dead but the military would still be equipped. That's a faulty argument. When you have the devistation on the scale to level American cities, make everything in between to be call the badlands (I think that's what they called the area between SF and SL back in the first episode.) and watching the first 15min of the show when she's singing....doesnt look like much of anything is out there.

Lets see cities destroyed, check. Industry halted (besides mining and the ***** house) check, complete change of civilization, check. The regression of civilized behavior(IE safe to travel between cities with out fear of being robbed by raiders aka bandits of the old west), check. Going from safe to walk down the street to everyone is packing a weapon of some type just for survival from raiders and wildlife, check. I dont know about you seems pretty apocalyptic. Looks like they are rebuilding slowly which is the post part of post apocalyptic. Seems to new the criteria of post apocalyptic requirements.

Hell more the the city was left standing in fall out but because it was nukes no one questioned it. if it makes ya feel any better when reading the fluff and stories for this replace teraforming with nuclear impact and you'll feel better about it.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 08:15 PM
Technologies lost. We are watching the same show right.... I mean so far we have mining, a ***** house, old cars, few Sci fi military like buggies/jeep things one dodge and a couple old school cadilacs and I think I seen a light blue Buick. The tech seems to be mostly if alien design or some connection to alien tech. I mean .....i dont see any ipads, laptops, even the comunication devices. Some weird flip phone looking like a star trek com... I can think I can say with confidence there was a few technologys lost when the war happened and leveled the only two cities we have seen so far.

Basing your idea that because the two military organizations are still mainly intact means nothing. Look at the people. USA right now could lose every single American city and the military would still be riding around in tanks and hummers. The people would all be dead but the military would still be equipped. That's a faulty argument. When you have the devistation on the scale to level American cities, make everything in between to be call the badlands (I think that's what they called the area between SF and SL back in the first episode.) and watching the first 15min of the show when she's singing....doesnt look like much of anything is out there.

Lets see cities destroyed, check. Industry halted (besides mining and the ***** house) check, complete change of civilization, check. The regression of civilized behavior(IE safe to travel between cities with out fear of being robbed by raiders aka bandits of the old west), check. Going from safe to walk down the street to everyone is packing a weapon of some type just for survival from raiders and wildlife, check. I dont know about you seems pretty apocalyptic. Looks like they are rebuilding slowly which is the post part of post apocalyptic. Seems to new the criteria of post apocalyptic requirements.

Hell more the the city was left standing in fall out but because it was nukes no one questioned it. if it makes ya feel any better when reading the fluff and stories for this replace teraforming with nuclear impact and you'll feel better about it.

The EMC and VC were more than just military groups.

and VBI was not only producing weapons through the war (Read: Even before the war, and manufacturing them) they were conducting research on reverse engineering Votan tech.

The EMC replaced the UN, which sort of took over when war was declared. At no point was the central government completely destabilized. The Earth Republic was made from the EMC. It was not a government that came afterwards. (See NCR in Fallout)

In every war there is a suspension of local government. But the suspension of the local government was not due to the Arkfall, therefore, Defiance can't be Post-Apocalyptic.

Yes, millions died, but would you have considered England a Post-Apocalyptic territory after the black plague took hold of London?

CozyMilk
05-25-2013, 08:15 PM
In short, yes.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 08:19 PM
In short, yes.

Care to elaborate? I'm bored, and enjoy well thought out conversation

CozyMilk
05-25-2013, 08:23 PM
Care to elaborate? I'm bored, and enjoy well thought out conversation

I say in short, yes, because when I visually imagine what a post apocalyptic world looks like, the vision is quite similar to many elements in game.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 08:26 PM
I say in short, yes, because when I visually imagine what a post apocalyptic world looks like, the vision is quite similar to many elements in game.

Right, I mean, so does Borderlands, but calling Borderlands a Post-Apocalyptic game makes me laugh.

Killzone fits all the requirements, but no one calls it a Post-Apoc game.

Biznatchio
05-25-2013, 08:49 PM
Play the game long enough and you realize that there is nothing apocalyptic about it. It's more anticlimactic like that cheap date you hoped could be fixed by using a paper bag on the person's head..

Anderson
05-25-2013, 08:57 PM
Borderlands IS Post-Apocalyptic. If you totally nerd out and read up on the backstory (which for some reason they never really covered in the game), when Pandora was originally settled it was a much nicer place originally. But the original settlers were unaware of what the different seasons were like on the planet because a Pandora Year is 10 Earth years, so it was a few years before they got to find out what summer was like:

"The First Summer
Pandora, despite the massive influx of people, was still largely unexplored when climatic conditions changed for the warmer. With the rising temperatures, the previously hibernating Pandoran fauna and dormant flora began to stir, presenting a new threat to the colonists. Within weeks many or all of the population were forced to retreat to safer areas, defend themselves, or die.
These decimated communities began to fortify when the Crimson Lance arrived. The Lance weren't gentle with the population, but their firepower and training were helpful in protecting civilians against native predators or criminal elements. Sanctuary, the largest human settlement, was fortified and put under martial law.

However, faced with an increasingly hostile environment, a growingly lawless and desperate population, and Pandora's unprofitability given the elusion of the Vault, Atlas began withdrawing from the planet."
http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/Pandora#History

So that's why you have all the ruined buildings and ships stuck in the dessert.

Rebel Raven
05-25-2013, 09:30 PM
Well, considering the world of defiance is just a bit more colorful than the world of fallout, and not in much better condition, yeah, it's post apocalyptic. People might have rebuilt more than the norm for such settings, but they're still nowhere near where the modern world is. It's more wild west, I'd say, at present.

So what if we have remnants of older technology? Most of the world is jekked up. We're certainly not seeing much that's familair about the bay area, nevermind even a quarter of the population.

Infact most technology isn't being made again. I mean look at the rollers. Alek tar is using frikking vinyl. If we had modern technology I doubt he'd be reliant on it. Sure Vinyl has benefits, but taking up less space than an mp3 isn't one of them.

It's pretty safe to say most of the world's population is dead.

LA is a prison for jek's sake.
Florida is a nuclear wasteland.

Earth has a ring of debris that has, and still is crashing down to the planet.

The planet's been terraformed into something near on alien.

It's safe to say the world went through an apocalyptic event, so this is post apocalyptic.

PhotriusPyrelus
05-25-2013, 09:35 PM
Here is the definition of Post-Apocalyptic from the Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction

Following a large-scale disaster in which civilization has been destroyed or has regressed to a more primitive level; (of a story) having such a setting.

So what you're saying is that the terra-forming of...terra... wasn't a large-scale disaster in which civilization has regressed to a more primitive level (i.e., as you mention, more of a wild-west type structure)?

I consider Defiance post-apocalyptic because it has that necessary element: an apocalyptic event. I do not consider Borderlands games post-apocalyptic because they lack such an event; thought it does have a superficially similar atmosphere and ambiance, I would not classify the actual 'setting' as post-apocalyptic.

I dislike the setting for the Fallout games (mentioned because that's probably most peoples' exemplar of post-apocalyptic setting) because I don't believe it would take humanity *that* long to rebuild (not to the modern-era, but certainly more than is found in 3, which I should mention is the only one I've played :shame:) from a nuclear apocalypse using the Fallout Universe's rules for radiation.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 09:39 PM
Well, considering the world of defiance is just a bit more colorful than the world of fallout, and not in much better condition, yeah, it's post apocalyptic. People might have rebuilt more than the norm for such settings, but they're still nowhere near where the modern world is. It's more wild west, I'd say, at present.

So what if we have remnants of older technology? Most of the world is jekked up. We're certainly not seeing much that's familair about the bay area, nevermind even a quarter of the population.

Infact most technology isn't being made again. I mean look at the rollers. Alek tar is using frikking vinyl. If we had modern technology I doubt he'd be reliant on it. Sure Vinyl has benefits, but taking up less space than an mp3 isn't one of them.

It's pretty safe to say most of the world's population is dead.

LA is a prison for jek's sake.
Florida is a nuclear wasteland.

Earth has a ring of debris that has, and still is crashing down to the planet.

The planet's been terraformed into something near on alien.

It's safe to say the world went through an apocalyptic event, so this is post apocalyptic.

There was an MP3 player (With alien text) in the first episode.

And what technology isn't being produced?

Cars? They're still being made.

Computers? Fairly certain we've seen some.

While more disconnected than the modern age, Defiance has buildings built for form, not just shelter. The Paradise area has commodities and trading. Von Bach not only produced weapons in the Pale Wars, as well as outfitted the EMC (Yup, that's why the EMC and VBI weapons are the same), but conducted advanced research on nano technology, shielding and so on.

There wasn't even a full generation between those who saw the start of the Pale Wars and those who saw it end. Yeah, everything might be a little worse for the wear, but in no way are we in a state of complete and total anarchy worldwide. And at no point was their ever complete and total anarchy across the entire planet. There was conflict, but there were still governments.

PhotriusPyrelus
05-25-2013, 09:42 PM
There was an MP3 player (With alien text) in the first episode.

And what technology isn't being produced?

Cars? They're still being made.

Computers? Fairly certain we've seen some.

While more disconnected than the modern age, Defiance has buildings built for form, not just shelter. The Paradise area has commodities and trading. Von Bach not only produced weapons in the Pale Wars, as well as outfitted the EMC (Yup, that's why the EMC and VBI weapons are the same), but conducted advanced research on nano technology, shielding and so on.

You're confusing technology with civilization. While similar, and affective of one another, they are not equivalent.

CozyMilk
05-25-2013, 09:45 PM
You're confusing technology with civilization. While similar, and affective of one another, they are not equivalent.

I agree. All these things he's mentioned can most certainly be present in a post apocalyptic world.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 09:48 PM
You're confusing technology with civilization. While similar, and affective of one another, they are not equivalent.

Name one civilization that worked without technology.

Now name one technology that was produced without Civilization. Progression is a mark of Civilization, and it sort of comes down to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. If you are too busy finding food and water, you don't develop technology, you don't develop culture. If the entire world was focused on just surviving post Arkfall, then the Pale Wars would have looked very different. Instead, research and industry went on as before.

I'm not saying the Terraforming wasn't bad. And I'm not saying people didn't die, but there is a difference between the world changing and the world ending.

Rebel Raven
05-25-2013, 09:59 PM
There was an MP3 player (With alien text) in the first episode.

And what technology isn't being produced?

Cars? They're still being made.

Computers? Fairly certain we've seen some.

While more disconnected than the modern age, Defiance has buildings built for form, not just shelter. The Paradise area has commodities and trading. Von Bach not only produced weapons in the Pale Wars, as well as outfitted the EMC (Yup, that's why the EMC and VBI weapons are the same), but conducted advanced research on nano technology, shielding and so on.

There wasn't even a full generation between those who saw the start of the Pale Wars and those who saw it end. Yeah, everything might be a little worse for the wear, but in no way are we in a state of complete and total anarchy worldwide. And at no point was their ever complete and total anarchy across the entire planet. There was conflict, but there were still governments.

An MP3 player scavenged from ruins no doubt.

Cars aren't being made so much as cobbled together. I'm not seeing anyone actually making a car. There's no visible car factory in all of the bay area. Torq just repairs them, and there's a huge dififrence between producing, and repairing.
I don't see much of an infrastructure in defiance. Supplies got delivered by a ramshackle truck as opposed to airplane, or some such. The truck wasn't even a big truck. More like some wild west stage coach.

We've seen some computers, sure. Likely salvaged from ruins, arkfalls, lucky spots not blasted into most of the bay area's state of being, etc.

The reason we aren't bombed back into the stoneage is that we remember the technology we had, and know how to use what we find, and the lucky ones know how to build it if they manage to get the equipment to. I doubt there's much of any event that could happen around you that'd make you forget how to make fire, not know how a gun works, how to boil water, or make you lose the knowledge you had in general. We'll prettymuch forever be far ahead of our ancestors in terms of technological knowledge.

We aren't, or weren't in total anarchy because we have firearms, and people who give a damn to keep the peace, and people who want to live in that peace.
Plus we still have armies running around.
None the less, there's widespread mutant, raider, and 99er activity creating anarchy. I've seen more raiders than not, infact. There may be pockets of government, but how much of the world is run by people like the raiders?

And a -little- worse for wear? Seriously? That's a gigantic understatement. BILLIONS OF PEOPLE are -dead- which is in itself an apocalyptic event, and the world is still recovering. The world nearly got scoured of all life as we know it!

The world recently took an apocalyptic disaster, and we're soon after that.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 10:17 PM
An MP3 player scavenged from ruins no doubt.

Cars aren't being made so much as cobbled together. I'm not seeing anyone actually making a car. There's no visible car factory in all of the bay area. Torq just repairs them, and there's a huge dififrence between producing, and repairing.
I don't see much of an infrastructure in defiance. Supplies got delivered by a ramshackle truck as opposed to airplane, or some such. The truck wasn't even a big truck. More like some wild west stage coach.

We've seen some computers, sure. Likely salvaged from ruins, arkfalls, lucky spots not blasted into most of the bay area's state of being, etc.

The reason we aren't bombed back into the stoneage is that we remember the technology we had, and know how to use what we find, and the lucky ones know how to build it if they manage to get the equipment to. I doubt there's much of any event that could happen around you that'd make you forget how to make fire, not know how a gun works, how to boil water, or make you lose the knowledge you had in general. We'll prettymuch forever be far ahead of our ancestors in terms of technological knowledge.

We aren't, or weren't in total anarchy because we have firearms, and people who give a damn to keep the peace, and people who want to live in that peace.
Plus we still have armies running around.
None the less, there's widespread mutant, raider, and 99er activity creating anarchy. I've seen more raiders than not, infact. There may be pockets of government, but how much of the world is run by people like the raiders?

And a -little- worse for wear? Seriously? That's a gigantic understatement. BILLIONS OF PEOPLE are -dead- which is in itself an apocalyptic event, and the world is still recovering. The world nearly got scoured of all life as we know it!

The world recently took an apocalyptic disaster, and we're soon after that.

According to the lore, Dodge is still around, making cars.

In the US most resources are transferred via land anyways. The ER has built at least one stratocarrier since the pale wars, and that's not something I'd say was cobbled together. I'm pretty sure Von Bach isn't salvaging his old factories for guns and ammo to sell.

Most life on Earth didn't die. A lot of things died, yes, but not on par with say, the dinosaurs, where there was a population curve guaranteeing most species extinction.

And if you want to play the salvaged route for everything, explain the town of Defiance to me. Because buildings like that don't exist if you are pushing rubble together.

PhotriusPyrelus
05-25-2013, 10:17 PM
Name one civilization that worked without technology.

Now name one technology that was produced without Civilization. Progression is a mark of Civilization, and it sort of comes down to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. If you are too busy finding food and water, you don't develop technology, you don't develop culture. If the entire world was focused on just surviving post Arkfall, then the Pale Wars would have looked very different. Instead, research and industry went on as before.

I'm not saying the Terraforming wasn't bad. And I'm not saying people didn't die, but there is a difference between the world changing and the world ending.

Hypothetical: Consider a society that is an exact copy of medieval feudalism, but with laser swords, energy armour, and space ships. Are they are obviously more technologically advanced, but are they a higher level civilization? I would say no.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 10:25 PM
Hypothetical: Consider a society that is an exact copy of medieval feudalism, but with laser swords, energy armour, and space ships. Are they are obviously more technologically advanced, but are they a higher level civilization? I would say no.

Ah, but see there is the rub. See, Feudalism by nature is a stale culture. It's very nature is that it prevents progression, both in a technological standpoint and a social one.

So a Feudal State wouldn't develop laser swords and energy armor. Books didn't even become common for the rich until long after the middle ages.

PhotriusPyrelus
05-25-2013, 10:26 PM
Ah, but see there is the rub. See, Feudalism by nature is a stale culture. It's very nature is that it prevents progression, both in a technological standpoint and a social one.

So a Feudal State wouldn't develop laser swords and energy armor. Books didn't even become common for the rich until long after the middle ages.

Who says they had to develop it? Also, you side-stepped the question. Please answer the question itself rather than providing an explanation of why an admitted hypothetical in invalid..

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 10:33 PM
Who says they had to develop it? Also, you side-stepped the question. Please answer the question itself rather than providing an explanation of why an admitted hypothetical in invalid..

You are asking me to make an assumption based off minimal details.

If it is a true Feudal System, then no, it is not a higher level of culture.

But the proposed scenario is flawed, meaning that my answer has little value. A Feudal System doesn't produce tools on par with modern levels, let alone advance technology.

Ketzer
05-25-2013, 10:39 PM
You are asking me to make an assumption based off minimal details.

If it is a true Feudal System, then no, it is not a higher level of culture.

But the proposed scenario is flawed, meaning that my answer has little value. A Feudal System doesn't produce tools on par with modern levels, let alone advance technology.

Feudal Japan advanced metallurgy quite far, look at a samurai sword and the technique of folding metal , so yor wrong about technology advancement with a Feudal system.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 10:45 PM
Feudal Japan advanced metallurgy quite far, look at a samurai sword and the technique of folding metal , so yor wrong about technology advancement with a Feudal system.

Actually, the katana wasn't made with anything more than Wotz steel. Technologically speaking, Wotz steel isn't all that impressive.

Damascus Steel by far outperformed anything made in Japan. Similar folding techniques, superior metal.

Plus, Japan wasn't caught up with the rest of the world technology wise until the 1900s. It wasn't a leader in technology until post WWII.

Rebel Raven
05-25-2013, 10:49 PM
According to the lore, Dodge is still around, making cars.

In the US most resources are transferred via land anyways. The ER has built at least one stratocarrier since the pale wars, and that's not something I'd say was cobbled together. I'm pretty sure Von Bach isn't salvaging his old factories for guns and ammo to sell.

Most life on Earth didn't die. A lot of things died, yes, but not on par with say, the dinosaurs, where there was a population curve guaranteeing most species extinction.

And if you want to play the salvaged route for everything, explain the town of Defiance to me. Because buildings like that don't exist if you are pushing rubble together.

I'd like to see where you got the lore that dodge is still making vehicles. Last I heard the challengers we found were from a cache.
Even if they were still making cars, the infrastructure that gives them materials for it is certainly trashed with so many dead vs the people needed to mine the metals, fabricate the rubber, and plastic. They'll have to scavenge, recycle, and such if they expect to maintain production.
And I'd say most of their factories are in ruin.

The places that build strato carriers, ammo, guns, and most everything else are likely in the same boat as Dodge, if not worse, but of course the military is going to horde ammo, guns, building materials, and such. That's probably the only way they built anything. It's they, who are some of the most well protected that will be the self-appointed guides for the world.

How do you know that the life that survived the dinosaur apocalypse is any better or worse than the defiance apocalypse? Obviously some life survived the dinosaur's death or else we wouldn't be here, would we? Nor the animals we know.
None of us were there when the dinos got ganked by whatever hit'em. :P
We also likely survived better coz we built shelters, and cover, and were far more prepared than the dinosaurs ever were AFAIK.

We lost both cows, and Pigs (Hence Pows), and I haven't seen deer, or a lot of wildlife that wasn't mutated, and created by the terraforming for that matter.

I never said the world got turned into a glass parkinglot, but lets look at Sanfran. It used to be a large city with near a million people living in it. Now most of it is gone, either by terraforming, conflict, or arkfalls. It looks almost nothing like it used to save a handful of
landmarks. It certainly cannot house the population it used to hold anymore.

When you bomb the shtako out of a landscape, you're not going to take down every last building. Especially in an uncoordinated manner as arkfalls, and a botched terraforming, or conflicts with limited supplies. Some lucky buildings will survive.
You'll notice the rest of the buildings in defiance are either:
Small, and likely built with lots of work, or, at best, small scale fabrication.
Or
large, run down, overgrown, and being reclaimed, if not reclaimed already. The mayor's building in the town of defiance is definitely in that area with vines on it, and stuff, and soemwhat dark, and dingy.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 11:00 PM
I'd like to see where you got the lore that dodge is still making vehicles. Last I heard the challengers we found were from a cache.
Even if they were still making cars, the infrastructure that gives them materials for it is certainly trashed with so many dead vs the people needed to mine the metals, fabricate the rubber, and plastic. They'll have to scavenge, recycle, and such if they expect to maintain production.
And I'd say most of their factories are in ruin.

The places that build strato carriers, ammo, guns, and most everything else are likely in the same boat as Dodge, if not worse, but of course the military is going to horde ammo, guns, building materials, and such. That's probably the only way they built anything. It's they, who are some of the most well protected that will be the self-appointed guides for the world.

How do you know that the life that survived the dinosaur apocalypse is any better or worse than the defiance apocalypse? Obviously some life survived the dinosaur's death or else we wouldn't be here, would we? Nor the animals we know.
None of us were there when the dinos got ganked by whatever hit'em. :P
We also likely survived better coz we built shelters, and cover, and were far more prepared than the dinosaurs ever were AFAIK.

We lost both cows, and Pigs (Hence Pows), and I haven't seen deer, or a lot of wildlife that wasn't mutated, and created by the terraforming for that matter.

I never said the world got turned into a glass parkinglot, but lets look at Sanfran. It used to be a large city with near a million people living in it. Now most of it is gone, either by terraforming, conflict, or arkfalls. It looks almost nothing like it used to save a handful of
landmarks. It certainly cannot house the population it used to hold anymore.

When you bomb the shtako out of a landscape, you're not going to take down every last building. Especially in an uncoordinated manner as arkfalls, and a botched terraforming, or conflicts with limited supplies. Some lucky buildings will survive.
You'll notice the rest of the buildings in defiance are either:
Small, and likely built with lots of work, or, at best, small scale fabrication.
Or
large, run down, overgrown, and being reclaimed, if not reclaimed already. The mayor's building in the town of defiance is definitely in that area with vines on it, and stuff, and soemwhat dark, and dingy.

You seem to be under the assumption that at some point in the story everything was totally ruined leaving nothing left but stockpiles ala fallout. The mutants at mount tam? They are EMC soldiers that were stationed in the bay area, and are survivors of the battle of defiance. They didn't mutate until after the terra spire was used as a weapon.

Those stockpiles and bunkers would have been supplied up until the ceasefire. Not from other stockpiles, but from factories. Neither the ER or the EMC are technically post Arkfall governments, as the EMC is a military arm of the UN, which took over when war was declared, and the ER is a combination of the Votanis Collective and the EMC. (Although the VC is still independent...)

That's why I used the WWII example. Yes, some parts of Europe would have been considered devastated in the war, but there was still a government and industry. Defiance is a lot like that.

Rebel Raven
05-25-2013, 11:12 PM
You seem to be under the assumption that at some point in the story everything was totally ruined leaving nothing left but stockpiles ala fallout. The mutants at mount tam? They are EMC soldiers that were stationed in the bay area, and are survivors of the battle of defiance. They didn't mutate until after the terra spire was used as a weapon.

Those stockpiles and bunkers would have been supplied up until the ceasefire. Not from other stockpiles, but from factories. Neither the ER or the EMC are technically post Arkfall governments, as the EMC is a military arm of the UN, which took over when war was declared, and the ER is a combination of the Votanis Collective and the EMC. (Although the VC is still independent...)

That's why I used the WWII example. Yes, some parts of Europe would have been considered devastated in the war, but there was still a government and industry. Defiance is a lot like that.

You seem to be under the impression there's sprawling cities mass producing things with the same resources they had before.
There's no way people mined enough metal to make a stratocarrier in the span of the war. They may be mining but the reduced population put supplies to a trickle, I'm sure. The militaries had a stockpile, and they still do. What ever was added was not at full pace because I doubt people were leaving eachother's supply lines alone.

WWII saw nowhere near the rate of casualties, and landscape destruction as the world did in the ark wars. Not even remotely close. Comparing the two is like comparing a fenderbender vs a car getting totaled. That's the gap of destruction between the devastation of WWII, and a virtual apocalypse that was the Ark Fall.

And I'd say Britain, Japan, and Germany rebuilt a lot faster, and a lot easier than the world of Defiance.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 11:17 PM
You seem to be under the impression there's sprawling cities mass producing things with the same resources they had before.
There's no way people mined enough metal to make a stratocarrier in the span of the war. They may be mining but the reduced population put supplies to a trickle, I'm sure. The militaries had a stockpile, and they still do. What ever was added was not at full pace because I doubt people were leaving eachother's supply lines alone.

WWII saw nowhere near the rate of casualties, and landscape destruction as the world did in the ark wars. Not even remotely close. Comparing the two is like comparing a fenderbender vs a car getting totaled. That's the gap of destruction between the devastation of WWII, and a virtual apocalypse that was the Ark Fall.

And I'd say Britain, Japan, and Germany rebuilt a lot faster, and a lot easier than the world of Defiance.

-.-

There are 5 stratocarriers, two have been downed that we know of. So apparently they mined more than just enough for the one.

Not to mention the metal fenceposts at Iron Demon, those look manufactured (As a design like that is needlessly complex for hand crafting)

I think you are actually overestimating the deathtoll of the Arkfall.

Ensu
05-25-2013, 11:27 PM
You seem to be under the impression there's sprawling cities mass producing things with the same resources they had before.
There's no way people mined enough metal to make a stratocarrier in the span of the war. They may be mining but the reduced population put supplies to a trickle, I'm sure. The militaries had a stockpile, and they still do. What ever was added was not at full pace because I doubt people were leaving eachother's supply lines alone.

WWII saw nowhere near the rate of casualties, and landscape destruction as the world did in the ark wars. Not even remotely close. Comparing the two is like comparing a fenderbender vs a car getting totaled. That's the gap of destruction between the devastation of WWII, and a virtual apocalypse that was the Ark Fall.

And I'd say Britain, Japan, and Germany rebuilt a lot faster, and a lot easier than the world of Defiance.

Here I'd point out that we've essentially only seen the wild west and an independent city state (Town of Defiance). We haven't seen the VC colony in Brazil (established before the war) or New York (E-Rep's capitol on the North American continent, so far as I know).

They could be as bright and utopian as this (http://thenewscifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/futuristic-city.jpg) or bladerunner-esque like this (http://media02.hongkiat.com/ww-scifi-wallpapers/sci-fi-city.jpg) for all we know. The stratocarriers were first worked on as early as 2013 (http://en.defiance-wiki.com/wiki/Stratocarrier) and by 2025 the EMC had five stratocarriers operational. Since the Pale Wars began in 2023, this may mean production continued well into the Wars. It is entirely possible that new stratocarriers are in production (although they are a pre-Arkfall invention, the post-Arkfall world might lead to new innovations).

Rebel Raven
05-25-2013, 11:28 PM
-.-

There are 5 stratocarriers, two have been downed that we know of. So apparently they mined more than just enough for the one.

Not to mention the metal fenceposts at Iron Demon, those look manufactured (As a design like that is needlessly complex for hand crafting)

I think you are actually overestimating the deathtoll of the Arkfall.
Stratocarriers made, I'm sure, with materials mined before the war, and at the reduced rates of during, and after the war.

I'm not saying there isn't any production at all. We have solar pannels for crying out loud. But I'm saying that things aren't as rosy as you paint them. I'm sure san fran's destruction was not isolated, and that destruction costs lives.

If the death toll wasn't that bad why do we not see hundreds, or thousands of settlers coming to the bay area rebuilding in vast strides? Or to defiance? Why aren't we seeing the wide spread re-construction of san-fran since if people can fabricate MP3 players, computers, and cars, nevermind strato-carriers with? What on earth would stop them from making pre-fabricared houses, or bricks and mortar? why do we not see large amounts of supplies coming... anywhere? Or much of an economy?
I haven't even seen a proper village outside of defiance, frankly, and even then they're living in the scraps of the old world for the most part.

I really don't think humanity is so dumb that they'd focus on luxuries like mp3 players, challengers, and such over infrastructure, and living conditions to the point that they wouldn't rebuild a beloved, historical town.

Where's the vast armies that weren't killed in the death tolls I'm overestimating? Why the heck do they need an ark hunter to clean up their mess? Where's the other stratocarriers, and military death machines to bomb the jek out of enemy forces so they can reclaim the area for the people so overburdened areas can apread out more?

For all the peopel you imply are alive, I'm not seeing many signs of them.

Ensu
05-25-2013, 11:32 PM
For all the peopel you imply are alive, I'm not seeing many signs of them.

Don't know about you, but I've killed thousands of raiders. Technically, they're people.

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 11:37 PM
The east cost of the former US has the highest population concentration. The west coast (where we are) is considered frontier, and far more dangerous.

Plus, the town of Defiance seems to be large by indepent city standards, but not compared to the ER and other governments.

And the ER want's those hundreds of people on the west coast. That's what all the talk about the mag line is about. A supposedly completely safe method of transport for people and resources that would link the independent towns and the ER to the west coast.

Otherwise you'd have to cross the storm divide, which is no man's land simply because it's dangerous and no one wants it.

Rebel Raven
05-25-2013, 11:40 PM
Don't know about you, but I've killed thousands of raiders. Technically, they're people.
Gunna have to suspend disbelief on that one, aren't we? If they were finite, there'd be a ton of people who won't ever get to see a raider, nevermind kill one. :p
What have the raiders really done besides shoot people, and presumeably pilot the diggers? They haven't really built anything for all the infinite numbers there are of them.

Still doesn't answer my question. If there's so many people left, where's their combined might being shown in rebuilding the world, and making it safer? Where's the E-rep snipers, and tanks scouring the raiders off the face of the planet in sheer military might?
Again, why are the military relying on civillians, and ark hunters, and retired military to get the job done?


The east cost of the former US has the highest population concentration. The west coast (where we are) is considered frontier, and far more dangerous.

Plus, the town of Defiance seems to be large by indepent city standards, but not compared to the ER and other governments.

And the ER want's those hundreds of people on the west coast. That's what all the talk about the mag line is about. A supposedly completely safe method of transport for people and resources that would link the independent towns and the ER to the west coast.

Otherwise you'd have to cross the storm divide, which is no man's land simply because it's dangerous and no one wants it.

Okay, where's the stuff being flown/shipped over from Asia, then?

ChaosOneX
05-25-2013, 11:46 PM
Gunna have to suspend disbelief on that one, aren't we? If they were finite, there'd be a ton of people who won't ever get to see a raider, nevermind kill one. :p
What have the raiders really done besides shoot people, and presumeably pilot the diggers? They haven't really built anything for all the infinite numbers there are of them.

Still doesn't answer my question. If there's so many people left, where's their combined might being shown in rebuilding the world, and making it safer? Where's the E-rep snipers, and tanks scouring the raiders off the face of the planet in sheer military might?
Again, why are the military relying on civillians, and ark hunters, and retired military to get the job done?

Actually, I have an answer for that one.

That answer is more about politics.

in the area of the former US, the ER is the big dog, but there are a bunch of independent communities like Paradise and Defiance.

While in theory the ER could use brute force to take over these smaller city/states, all sides would rather avoid war.

The ER comes across as an expansionist government. (think america in the time of the wild west) but it has to curb it's appetite. It can't move troops in mass without making the smaller governments nervous.

The ER is fed by smaller groups, trading raw resources for manufactured goods, like medicine, vehicles, weapons, and yes, probably MP3 players.

Rebel Raven
05-25-2013, 11:50 PM
Actually, I have an answer for that one.

That answer is more about politics.

in the area of the former US, the ER is the big dog, but there are a bunch of independent communities like Paradise and Defiance.

While in theory the ER could use brute force to take over these smaller city/states, all sides would rather avoid war.

The ER comes across as an expansionist government. (think america in the time of the wild west) but it has to curb it's appetite. It can't move troops in mass without making the smaller governments nervous.

The ER is fed by smaller groups, trading raw resources for manufactured goods, like medicine, vehicles, weapons, and yes, probably MP3 players.

But you likened the devastation to WWII. I doubt that Britain's government, or Japan's Government, or Germany's government had to worry about break-away states, and instead just rolled in on their own national borders and rebuilt. They likely mowed down any looters, or such if there were any that were denying the rebuilding process.

And I'm sure they got to import materials to help in that reconstruction.

I'm not seeing that sort of thing going on.

Smaller, more broken groups, sure. Meaning that vast swaths of population are gone. Infrastructure is demolished, and not rebuilt. No one is sending humanitarian aid to the point of getting much if any sembleance of any of that being repaired. Likely because most other nations are equally as boned via the destruction, and loss of life.

Ensu
05-25-2013, 11:51 PM
May as well ask why- nope. Nope. I shouldn't get into that. Politics and forums don't mix.

The watchtowers and hovels scattered around actually seem to be Raider constructions, the ones they man and spawn from, I mean. The shabby ones, with the corrugated iron roofing. So there's shanty building. The 99ers develop mine complexes that seem mostly stable, but not always conducive to healthy living. It's not just where they work, it's where they sle- well, they probably don't sleep. The Lawkeeper's (Iron Demon) Ranch seems to hold at least a few families/individuals other than Cooper himself, or so it seems when the Raiders attack during the storyline. He also doesn't strike me as much of a farmer, but look at all those barns. There are plenty of folk trying to defend their livelihood at the Happy Pow farm and the Kerr(?) farm. Crater's packed. There's a whole bunch of folk at the Headland under Torc's protection, from the looks of things.

But where we've started the game is also referred to as having the highest rate of arkfall in America (and the world?). These constant orbital bombardments probably hamper any rebuilding efforts in the area.

I agree with you on many points, but I still think there will be a lot more development and likely bustling cities in E-Rep and VC controlled areas.

On a side note; Dresden is still scarred by the bombings more than half a century ago, and the Dresden Frauenkirche didn't even begin reconstruction until 1994 and wasn't finished until 2005. Post-apocalyptic worlds are not the only kind where resources are finite.

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 12:01 AM
May as well ask why- nope. Nope. I shouldn't get into that. Politics and forums don't mix.

The watchtowers and hovels scattered around actually seem to be Raider constructions, the ones they man and spawn from, I mean. The shabby ones, with the corrugated iron roofing. So there's shanty building. The 99ers develop mine complexes that seem mostly stable, but not always conducive to healthy living. It's not just where they work, it's where they sle- well, they probably don't sleep. The Lawkeeper's (Iron Demon) Ranch seems to hold at least a few families/individuals other than Cooper himself, or so it seems when the Raiders attack during the storyline. He also doesn't strike me as much of a farmer, but look at all those barns. There are plenty of folk trying to defend their livelihood at the Happy Pow farm and the Kerr(?) farm. Crater's packed. There's a whole bunch of folk at the Headland under Torc's protection, from the looks of things.

But where we've started the game is also referred to as having the highest rate of arkfall in America (and the world?). These constant orbital bombardments probably hamper any rebuilding efforts in the area.

I agree with you on many points, but I still think there will be a lot more development and likely bustling cities in E-Rep and VC controlled areas.

Right, the raiders build hovels, and makeshift watch towers. But there's an infinite amount of them. Surely they'd have a fortress, or something. It's impossible to kill them all, so where are tehy coming from, and where are they getting that much resources?

The 99ers are cyborgs designed almost entirely for mining with hints of combat being taken from all walks of life. they likely don't sleep as you say, and probably need reduced resources. They no doubt have super human strength, and durability as well. Their ability to build is remarkable, but directed almost entirely towards mining, and getting more miners.

Sure we see people in the Bay area who have families, and such, but if there was such a vast amount of survivors, why aren't there far more immigrants than we see? Not just form other parts of North America, but South and central America, africa, asia, and europe? Certainly there'd be people woh have all kinds of reasons to settle into a new land?

Like I said, we must suspend disbelief when talking about raiders, 99ers, and enemies in general, and look more towards civilians, and the lack of them for a world that isn't banged up enough to be called an apocalypse.

ChaosOneX
05-26-2013, 12:01 AM
But you likened the devastation to WWII. I doubt that Britain's government, or Japan's Government, or Germany's government had to worry about break-away states, and instead just rolled in on their own national borders and rebuilt. They likely mowed down any looters, or such if there were any that were denying the rebuilding process.

And I'm sure they got to import materials to help in that reconstruction.

I'm not seeing that sort of thing going on.

Okay, here's a question for you, the mines in Marin. (Like mine 99)

they are post Ark-Fall

They don't look like stuff that was just thrown together, like things in Borderlands do. No, those are pre-fabricated structures, or the components are pre-fabricated. So how were they made?

My original argument was really against bows. Production of guns and ammo never stopped, meaning the arguments that people in Defiance would make and use bows because they couldn't get ammo is false.

The destabilization of the government has more to do with the Pale Wars than the Arkfall, that's a key factor to why Defiance isn't a Post-Apocalyptic story. Most of those city/states probably were born from refugee camps that were managed by the EMC. Again, the government that was supposed to be completely destroyed showing influence in the war.

Ensu
05-26-2013, 12:13 AM
It's entirely probable that we don't see as many regular folk in the game for exactly the same reason we see so many Raiders. Because this is a shooter, first and foremost. In order to give us things to shoot, those things need to be placed in the world. Any place where there are regular folk living in peace, paying their taxes, drinking a few beers with their buddies, is one less place on the world map where we can shoot things.

For the record, I'd be ecstatic to have larger population centres without anything to shoot, but then I'm a nerd for world building.

As to why there are so many Raiders, according to a couple pieces of dialogue in the game that I can recall the main body of Raiders come from the Storm Divide, and have been pouring into the bay area only recently. In the show Defiance, Alak Tarr is said to have run around with a gang, whether this was a reference to the Raiders or a similar type of outfit I'm not sure. All the same, it may suggest that the Raiders are a little more loose in their organization beyond Dy Dekuso's reach. It's also possible he was just one boss among many.

As to the Raider Fortress, didn't they have a whole island in Explosions 101?

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 12:13 AM
Okay, here's a question for you, the mines in Marin. (Like mine 99)

they are post Ark-Fall

They don't look like stuff that was just thrown together, like things in Borderlands do. No, those are pre-fabricated structures, or the components are pre-fabricated. So how were they made?

My original argument was really against bows. Production of guns and ammo never stopped, meaning the arguments that people in Defiance would make and use bows because they couldn't get ammo is false.

The destabilization of the government has more to do with the Pale Wars than the Arkfall, that's a key factor to why Defiance isn't a Post-Apocalyptic story. Most of those city/states probably were born from refugee camps that were managed by the EMC. Again, the government that was supposed to be completely destroyed showing influence in the war.

Likely created by small scale mining machinery, olf fashioned hard work, and knowledge accumulated over humanity's millenias of mining.
Or they were made by 99ers who's sole goal in life is to mine, and make more miners.

People aren't using bows because guns are still plentiful thanks to the war, and they are more advanced towards killing. People aren't going back to bows because they're inefficient vs firearms, bluntly. If it takes something of a super sonic, high velocity, explosive, or energy round to puncture a hellbug hide, shields, and/or armor what on earth would an arrow do?
Arrows in, and of themselves require more space to keep on a person than a clip of ammo, or even several.

Who said the government was completely destroyed? Even in an apocalypse at your standards, governments wouldn't be destroyed. Politicians would certainly have moved to deep, secure bunkers to survive so they can emerge later and resume business as usual. Even if they never emerged nearly everyone on earth would remember them, and try to emulate them.

ChaosOneX
05-26-2013, 12:14 AM
Okay, where's the stuff being flown/shipped over from Asia, then?

Not too sure what that has to do with anything

ChaosOneX
05-26-2013, 12:19 AM
Likely created by small scale mining machinery, olf fashioned hard work, and knowledge accumulated over humanity's millenias of mining.
Or they were made by 99ers who's sole goal in life is to mine, and make more miners.

People aren't using bows because guns are still plentiful thanks to the war, and they are more advanced towards killing. People aren't going back to bows because they're inefficient vs firearms, bluntly. If it takes something of a super sonic, or energy round to puncture a hellbug hide, shields, and/or armor what on earth would an arrow do?
Arrows in, and of themselves require more space to keep on a person than a clip of ammo, or even several.

Who said the government was completely destroyed? Even in an apocalypse at your standards, governments wouldn't be destroyed. Politicians would certainly have moved to deep, secure bunkers to survive so they can emerge later and resume business as usual. Even if they never emerged nearly everyone on earth would remember them, and try to emulate them.

Actually, the 99ers weren't always crazy. Most of those buildings were made by the Muir Mining Corporation.

not crazy cyborgs. That came later.

At no point was was civilization in the world of Defiance reduced to a primitive state. Not completely, anyways. And the remaining governments aren't a minority. That is why Defiance is falsely advertised as post apocalyptic. (Although the san fran area could count, the entire Earth does not.

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 12:20 AM
It's entirely probable that we don't see as many regular folk in the game for exactly the same reason we see so many Raiders. Because this is a shooter, first and foremost. In order to give us things to shoot, those things need to be placed in the world. Any place where there are regular folk living in peace, paying their taxes, drinking a few beers with their buddies, is one less place on the world map where we can shoot things.

For the record, I'd be ecstatic to have larger population centres without anything to shoot, but then I'm a nerd for world building.

As to why there are so many Raiders, according to a couple pieces of dialogue in the game that I can recall the main body of Raiders come from the Storm Divide, and have been pouring into the bay area only recently. In the show Defiance, Alak Tarr is said to have run around with a gang, whether this was a reference to the Raiders or a similar type of outfit I'm not sure. All the same, it may suggest that the Raiders are a little more loose in their organization beyond Dy Dekuso's reach. It's also possible he was just one boss among many.

As to the Raider Fortress, didn't they have a whole island in Explosions 101?

I love world building, and appreciate a well built world myself. The more I can immerse myself, and the more I feel like I can live there, the better! :P

And yeah, this is a shooter. It's difficult to show an accurate representation of the world due to that. Still, I say that if the world wasn't post-apocalyptic bad, we wouldn't have a rundown, ruined bay area. :P

The "raider fortress" was a mining facility stolen, and hardly even overhauled. The raiders, themselves, didn't build it.

Ensu
05-26-2013, 12:22 AM
They added their own personal touch when redecorating!

http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv75/locusani/raiderbanner1Sig1b.jpg

I'd say there are places in the world right now that look a lot worse than the bay area ingame.
Here's Syria (http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv75/locusani/s12_RTR3E2DK.jpg) for example. We can guess at what the world beyond our playable area is like, but if the Town of Defiance represents a border town with its thriving population there's hope for the rest of the world yet.

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 12:25 AM
Not too sure what that has to do with anything

Well, you use the storm divide as an excuse as to why supplies were so limited to the west coast. There's a giant landmass of people who fared better than North America that'd appreciate the business, and good press across the ocean. If the world hadn't gone to hell, where's their influence?


Actually, the 99ers weren't always crazy. Most of those buildings were made by the Muir Mining Corporation.

not crazy cyborgs. That came later.

At no point was was civilization in the world of Defiance reduced to a primitive state. Not completely, anyways. And the remaining governments aren't a minority. That is why Defiance is falsely advertised as post apocalyptic. (Although the san fran area could count, the entire Earth does not.

I know the 99ers weren't always crazy, but they were created with the intent to mine more, and more efficiently. The 99ers data recorders were pretty awesome, too.

If the earth isn't post apocalyptic, why are the world's forces not stepping in to repair the damage done in north america, fighting the anti-peace forces like Dark matter, raiders, and so forth?

It's not like the world hadn't had a history of ganging up on malcontents to stabilize an area.

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 12:27 AM
They added their own personal touch when redecorating!

http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv75/locusani/raiderbanner1Sig1b.jpg

lol Very homey. :P But the raiders didn't do much more than take over the island, and settle in to use the existing equipment to feed their leader. Hardly building a place from the ground up.

Closest thing would be a 99er's mine, or Dark matter's outposts, the latter likely made via stockpiles of equipment, and small scale production, or else they'd have some serious defenses going.

Ensu
05-26-2013, 12:37 AM
Well, you use the storm divide as an excuse as to why supplies were so limited to the west coast. There's a giant landmass of people who fared better than North America that'd appreciate the business, and good press across the ocean. If the world hadn't gone to hell, where's their influence?



I know the 99ers weren't always crazy, but they were created with the intent to mine more, and more efficiently. The 99ers data recorders were pretty awesome, too.

If the earth isn't post apocalyptic, why are the world's forces not stepping in to repair the damage done in north america, fighting the anti-peace forces like Dark matter, raiders, and so forth?

It's not like the world hadn't had a history of ganging up on malcontents to stabilize an area.

Well, they tried. Sent a whole stratocarrier chocka with E-Rep troops and mercenaries. Sadly, most of them died when the stratocarrier was knocked out of the sky. And the E-Rep(along with Blackwater/Ark Hunters) do seem to pacify San Fran canonically by the end of the storyline. We also wipe out the leadership of the Raiders in the area, deal several blows to hellbug and 99er populations and brutally stamp out an emergent AI sentience wherever we find it (always jerks a tear for me). Possibly if the open map reflected our actions more accurately, the area would be entirely at peace, with various bad guys suing for terms of surrender, or just cowering the moment they see an innocent farmer.

Because they know, they just know, that behind that farmer is an Ark Hunter wearing a huge grin, already counting the scrip they're about to earn.

ChaosOneX
05-26-2013, 12:38 AM
Well, you use the storm divide as an excuse as to why supplies were so limited to the west coast. There's a giant landmass of people who fared better than North America that'd appreciate the business, and good press across the ocean. If the world hadn't gone to hell, where's their influence?



I know the 99ers weren't always crazy, but they were created with the intent to mine more, and more efficiently. The 99ers data recorders were pretty awesome, too.

If the earth isn't post apocalyptic, why are the world's forces not stepping in to repair the damage done in north america, fighting the anti-peace forces like Dark matter, raiders, and so forth?

It's not like the world hadn't had a history of ganging up on malcontents to stabilize an area.

To the first part, I don't know. At one point Defiance claims the waters are full of scary things, and then I'm out in the ocean in a rowboat...


The definition of post apocalyptic might not fit Defiance, that doesn't mean the world isn't messed up. I laugh at all the people who are like "Where's Mah Hellbug Pet!!!!!!1!1"

As someone pointed out, there are other genres that are commonly labeled Post Apocalyptic that actually aren't.

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 12:54 AM
Well, they tried. Sent a whole stratocarrier chocka with E-Rep troops and mercenaries. Sadly, most of them died when the stratocarrier was knocked out of the sky. And the E-Rep(along with Blackwater/Ark Hunters) do seem to pacify San Fran canonically by the end of the storyline. We also wipe out the leadership of the Raiders in the area, deal several blows to hellbug and 99er populations and brutally stamp out an emergent AI sentience wherever we find it (always jerks a tear for me). Possibly if the open map reflected our actions more accurately, the area would be entirely at peace, with various bad guys suing for terms of surrender, or just cowering the moment they see an innocent farmer.

Because they know, they just know, that behind that farmer is an Ark Hunter wearing a huge grin, already counting the scrip they're about to earn.

Yeah, but there's forces from south america that could get here on land, and asia can always wander on over. Africa, too, maybe. Europe has Asia and africa in the way if they wanna travel east to our west coast, though.

And you're right. It's largely why we see no impact from our actions in an MMO since other people have to have the same opportunity to have that impact, too, and likewise, their impacts aren't going to be visible outside of them.



To the first part, I don't know. At one point Defiance claims the waters are full of scary things, and then I'm out in the ocean in a rowboat...


The definition of post apocalyptic might not fit Defiance, that doesn't mean the world isn't messed up. I laugh at all the people who are like "Where's Mah Hellbug Pet!!!!!!1!1"

As someone pointed out, there are other genres that are commonly labeled Post Apocalyptic that actually aren't.
Okay, so we nix ocean crossings. What about south america? Central america's connected directly to the west coast. And if the rest of the world isn't as messed up, they can fly supplies cutting out the ocean entirely.
My point is the rest of the world has to have their own problems to the point that we don't even hear of immigration, tourism, or any influence.

If Defiance isn't post apocalyptic, it sure is close to it.
"Post apocalyptic" might need a renewed, broader definition.

Bored Peon
05-26-2013, 01:02 AM
Simple logic.


Industry:
If there was a working industry, whoever owned that industry would be governing the planet.

Seem how E-Rep can not even govern what use dot be the US, that would say they lack industry.

No industry = post apocalyptic.

Technology:
Sure, they have lots of technology items in the game and show. Yet technology did go backwards. Otherwise why isn't someone building ships to launch into orbit to retrieve stuff form arkfalls before they crash? How about the fact the communicators in the show are like 20 times the size of a cell phone?

Technology backwards = post apocalyptic.

Civilization:
Huge population loss = post apocalyptic.

Infrastructure:
It is pretty clear when they resort to going back to a using a bus to travel between cities infrastructure is roasted. Nevermind how it is a huge deal just to rebuild a railroad to Defiance. I mean seriously, it had been done before in the 1800s, easaily done again.

The show is post apocalyptic beyond a doubt.

If you feel the need to argue it is not post apocalyptic, go find the Revolution forums.

Ensu
05-26-2013, 01:04 AM
South America (VC controlled Brazil) already have an ambassador in Paradise Territory. It is likely any supplies the VC send are redistributed through her (including all that scrip she gives you for cleaning up her turf). In the Defiance show the mail bus arrived with tourists/family off to visit family and people on business, as well as various goods/supplies.

We could always just call it dystopian.

ChaosOneX
05-26-2013, 01:12 AM
Yeah, but there's forces from south america that could get here on land, and asia can always wander on over. Africa, too, maybe. Europe has Asia and africa in the way if they wanna travel east to our west coast, though.

And you're right. It's largely why we see no impact from our actions in an MMO since other people have to have the same opportunity to have that impact, too, and likewise, their impacts aren't going to be visible outside of them.



Okay, so we nix ocean crossings. What about south america? Central america's connected directly to the west coast. And if the rest of the world isn't as messed up, they can fly supplies cutting out the ocean entirely.
My point is the rest of the world has to have their own problems to the point that we don't even hear of immigration, tourism, or any influence.

If Defiance isn't post apocalyptic, it sure is close to it.
"Post apocalyptic" might need a renewed, broader definition.

It's mentioned that there is not only a votanis camp in brazil, but that there is still contact with it, so who's to say we don't see people from there.

actually, post-apocalyptic should remain to a specific genre, IMO.

We need a term for things that are similar, but not actually Post-Apoc, rather than making it a catch all.

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 01:12 AM
South America (VC controlled Brazil) already have an ambassador in Paradise Territory. It is likely any supplies the VC send are redistributed through her (including all that scrip she gives you for cleaning up her turf). In the Defiance show the mail bus arrived with tourists/family off to visit family and people on business, as well as various goods/supplies.

We could always just call it dystopian.
Bus probably came from somewhere else on the east coast. If every bus is like that one, I can't imagine anyone wanting to go long distances in one of those. Especially not cross country. o.O

But by supplies I mean building materials, military force, manpower, and generally things that will help settle the area. I doubt the VC ambassador has a huge enough say over what E-rep, or what non VC lands in south america do to distribute anything to help take back, and re-populate the Bay Area.

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 01:14 AM
It's mentioned that there is not only a votanis camp in brazil, but that there is still contact with it, so who's to say we don't see people from there.

actually, post-apocalyptic should remain to a specific genre, IMO.

We need a term for things that are similar, but not actually Post-Apoc, rather than making it a catch all.

Dystopian, I guess as Ensu says, but I personally like the catch all or else fallout wouldn't count what with power armors, laser rifles, etc. :P

And forget contact, where's the humanitarian effort to repopulate the area?

P.S. Like i said, if a post apocalyptic event were to occur to the point where we're reverted to a lower technology, it'd seem like every person with a lick of intelligence would have to be killed or else we'd still be way ahead of the curve in technology thanks to even the base understanding of how things work. I don't know if that's possible.

Ensu
05-26-2013, 01:21 AM
Simple logic.


Industry:
If there was a working industry, whoever owned that industry would be governing the planet.

Seem how E-Rep can not even govern what use dot be the US, that would say they lack industry.

No industry = post apocalyptic.

Technology:
Sure, they have lots of technology items in the game and show. Yet technology did go backwards. Otherwise why isn't someone building ships to launch into orbit to retrieve stuff form arkfalls before they crash? How about the fact the communicators in the show are like 20 times the size of a cell phone?

Technology backwards = post apocalyptic.

Civilization:
Huge population loss = post apocalyptic.

Infrastructure:
It is pretty clear when they resort to going back to a using a bus to travel between cities infrastructure is roasted. Nevermind how it is a huge deal just to rebuild a railroad to Defiance. I mean seriously, it had been done before in the 1800s, easaily done again.

The show is post apocalyptic beyond a doubt.

If you feel the need to argue it is not post apocalyptic, go find the Revolution forums.

Rosa's building new cars. Mining complexes are active and transport gulanite around the country, which is used as a fuel source for all arktech (technology that came with the arks, does not refer only to that retrieved from arkfalls but also to anything made by Indogenes, and to a lesser extent the other Votan races). Wind turbines are still providing electricity. The Maglev rail is not a simple railroad, which was built with a vast immigrant workforce and chaingangs. Launching anything into orbit would lead to the almost immediate destruction of said object. There are innumerable pieces of ark debris spinning round the Earth at great velocities of all shapes and sizes, the lore says any attempt to reach orbit would be futile. It would certainly be the case with human technology as it currently stands, though the Dark Matter dropships give me some hope that we'll make it up there at some point.

I take a bus to get to my nearest city. Well, two buses. There's no railway between my nearest town and the city, it was removed back in the 60s due to the explosion of car ownership. No one seems to struggle to find a roller in the show.

iPhones are getting larger every year, and I've even seen people talking to people on their iPads.

In short, there's industry, technology is ahead of our own, but there has been population loss. Population gain too, due to births since the arkfall and the arrival of the Votans.

ChaosOneX
05-26-2013, 01:29 AM
Simple logic.


Industry:
If there was a working industry, whoever owned that industry would be governing the planet.

Seem how E-Rep can not even govern what use dot be the US, that would say they lack industry.

No industry = post apocalyptic.

VBI and Dodge both produce new items regularly. That would be industry. VBI produced weapons, ammo, and other goods prior to, during, and after the Pale Wars.


Technology:
Sure, they have lots of technology items in the game and show. Yet technology did go backwards. Otherwise why isn't someone building ships to launch into orbit to retrieve stuff form arkfalls before they crash? How about the fact the communicators in the show are like 20 times the size of a cell phone?

Technology backwards = post apocalyptic.

Actually, technology is still being developed. Both Votan and Terrestrial concepts are being regularly refined. Petrohol engines are an example of this. EGO is an example of this. As for why we aren't sending ships up? The ark belt stretches from the upper atmosphere out. NASA said that the belt would be possible, and that it would indeed stop things like aircraft from working. Stratocarriers are the only thing that withstand the impacts, and even they aren't impenetrable.

Plus, normal radio technology doesn't work so well anymore. Have you noticed?


Civilization:
Huge population loss = post apocalyptic.

Actually, no. You can have 80% of the population die or vanish without it being post-apocalyptic. Look at the definition of the genre.


Infrastructure:
It is pretty clear when they resort to going back to a using a bus to travel between cities infrastructure is roasted. Nevermind how it is a huge deal just to rebuild a railroad to Defiance. I mean seriously, it had been done before in the 1800s, easaily done again.

Same as the part about the Ark Belt. And the big deal about it is that it isn't being done at the cost of hundreds of lives of immigrants, isn't coal powered, and has to be able to withstand an arkfall. Seems like quite the undertaking.


The show is post apocalyptic beyond a doubt.

If you feel the need to argue it is not post apocalyptic, go find the Revolution forums.

Not really. I failed to see the part where Nolan and Irisa were scrounging for food, mining was done only with pickaxes, and what small groups of survivors were lead by whoever had the biggest guns or was the biggest bully.

And all that printed money is really just I.O.U. barter slips. That makes sense now. That's why vending machines take it.

ChaosOneX
05-26-2013, 01:33 AM
Dystopian, I guess as Ensu says, but I personally like the catch all or else fallout wouldn't count what with power armors, laser rifles, etc. :P

And forget contact, where's the humanitarian effort to repopulate the area?

Seem's like Cass is getting a head start on that...

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 01:40 AM
Seem's like Cass is getting a head start on that...

I doubt she's as loose as you imagine her to be, or else she'd be holed up in an area pregnant for likely several months, and she doesn't seem the sort for that.

Either that or she practices safe sex, or is barren.

Would make more sense if Cass were a guy roaming around, and impregnating the local women, and leaving to drift again.

ChaosOneX
05-26-2013, 01:42 AM
I doubt she's as loose as you imagine her to be, or else she'd be holed up in an area pregnant for likely several months, and she doesn't seem the sort for that.

Either that or she practices safe sex, or is barren.

Would make more sense if Cass were a guy roaming around, and impregnating the local women.

Seems like Von Bach is getting a head start on that... Or wishing he was

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 01:46 AM
Seems like Von Bach is getting a head start on that... Or wishing he was

... I didn't need that image in my head. Thanks. :P
I'm sure his extremely forward manner works on some people.

ChaosOneX
05-26-2013, 01:55 AM
... I didn't need that image in my head. Thanks. :P
I'm sure his extremely forward manner works on some people.

^^ Anytime

Can you imagine if Nim was as shameless as Von Bach?

Rebel Raven
05-26-2013, 01:58 AM
^^ Anytime

Can you imagine if Nim was as shameless as Von Bach?
lol
Yeah, well, you're just lucky the only other woman I can think of in the game that people won't want to think about getting it on is the hellbug matron. <.< :P

Ensu
05-26-2013, 01:59 AM
P.S. Like i said, if a post apocalyptic event were to occur to the point where we're reverted to a lower technology, it'd seem like every person with a lick of intelligence would have to be killed or else we'd still be way ahead of the curve in technology thanks to even the base understanding of how things work. I don't know if that's possible.

There are several fictional universes in which exactly that happens. Usually its presented as a loss of the ability to manufacture the technology and reduced ability to maintain it due to loss of the specialist knowledge required. The Warhammer 40k universe is set in "dark ages", following a golden age of technology. A multi-planet/system empire had all communication and access destroyed in a cataclysmic event, the rebuilding of the empire took thousands of years, and required new technologies and psychic developments of the human mind. Then -this- empire was plunged into civil war, and yet more knowledge and technology was lost. Then a thousand years or so for the empire to grow stable and recover lost ground, unearth lost technology, and you finally reach the playable "Warhammer 40k" time.

Philip Reeves' Mortal Engines is a post-apocalyptic fiction where old technology is unearthed, reverse-engineered and used as doomsday weapons in a world where cities are already mounted on huge tracks and roll around the landscape. The technological baseline for that civilisation is plainly ahead of our own, but they still are in a slump after a higher technological age.

For that matter, the Dark Ages after Roman engineering are a plain example. There wasn't the money, expertise or interest in building more aqueducts or baths, or in central government until hundreds of years later. Things devolved across Europe to tribal divisions and small kingdoms. The kingdoms eventually grew larger, devoured their neighbours, and entered a renaissance.

From the sounds of things, E-Rep are working on annexing their neighbours.

Casanova had nothing on Von Bach.

ChaosOneX
05-26-2013, 02:11 AM
lol
Yeah, well, you're just lucky the only other woman I can think of in the game that people won't want to think about getting it on is the hellbug matron. <.< :P

and now someone's going to rule 34 it.

thanks