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View Full Version : Why all the "copy wow" statements? (lacks content)



Mordeth Kai
05-24-2013, 04:15 PM
I only played a demo of wow for a few days and that was enough for me. I'm not saying the game was bad for what it was, but having wasted plenty of time on everquest, FF XI, and a few others, I had no intention of wasting away in a boring, monotonous, grindfest. A lot of people have criticized Defiance's lack of content, and I wholeheartedly agree, the game lacks depth and immersion as well. However, I played a lot of borderlands, and this game does what I would have loved to have seen in borderlands, a persistent world with a massive amount of players.

That aside, I have no idea why you would want an FPS futuristic post-apocalypse mmo to copy a fantasy pseudo turn-based auto-attack theme park mmo. For those of you who have not ventured into the very small world of FPS mmo's there are quite a few. This game avoided what ,in my opinion, is the biggest pitfall of the genre, and that is the instanced map system. The game has instanced maps for pvp and co-op but is not solely these things, which is a mistake a lot of games like *cough* Dust 514 *cough* have made. There isn't much competition in the FPS MMO genre, and it did a hell of a lot better than Fallen Earth on gameplay and AI, though Fallen Earth sadly has more content, albeit incredibly dull and tedious. The only FPS MMO that I have come across that does better started out as an instanced pvp game and it had much less content than Defiance last I played. If the game wasn't rushed as it was, things might have been different, and I have my fingers crossed that they might be able to improve the game, as it is still in its infancy. Of all FPS MMO's out there, Defiance has the most potential to be something great, hopefully that will be realized.

The biggest thing hurting Defiance is the one track mind focusing on the action part of the game, and not even considering that other things could be done. Consider the RPG dialogue setup with the Mass Effect series, Consider all the non combat skills in the Fallout 3/NV and survival aspects of that game. Consider what a crafting system might do for the game (a bad example would be Skyrim (a lot of fun but easy to break), a good example would be White Knight Chronicles (boring grindfest, but it keeps you playing and the rewards were worth it until the very end of the game). Consider a food system, let people gather raw herbs etc. from in game and then have a little farmvillish/harvest moonish mini game to grow crops over a long period of time to use as cooking ingredients for minor combat boosts, 1% or 2% in any area would justify them being there without breaking anything, and with minimal effort a lot of "content" is added.

Having played many rpg's in my time, online or otherwise, I can say that the last thing I want is for this game to be like wow, however the one thing that is causing everyone to get bored and quit is the lack of anything to work towards or look forward to. The guns don't scale or change in stats with character progression (I like the concept, but there needs to be progression of some sort, perhaps not in damage, but in something), there is no reason to amass wealth, there is no diversion from the usual content of the game, most of which looks the same and involves very little beyond shooting things. Shooting things is good, its the meat and potatoes, but there needs to be some green beans and broccoli as well.

I know nothing of this "end game content" I keep hearing wow fans whine about everywhere I go, and to be frank, I don't want to know. The few wow players I know only talk about going around and "pwning noobs", and to be frank, the average wow player sounds like a total wimp (expletive was censored) to me (to those who have a pair, consider yourself excluded, I'm an EVE pirate, thats all I need to say about that).

I guess to sum this all up, the game has obvious need for improvement and expansion, but it is one of the best in its niche, FPS MMO. If the devs can find small ways to give players something to progress on, it will hold us over until they can do something substantial, until then, for the love of god and please don't copy wow, there's enough wow clones as it is and I don't want wow with guns.

Cortechs
05-24-2013, 04:32 PM
Nice post. I did enjoy many things about Fallen Earth, but you are spot on about it being dull and tedious. I haven't played White Knight Chronicles or Skyrim, so some expansion on the systems you are referring to would be appreciated. :)

I have to admit, that of all the MMOs I have played (started with EQ really), Defiance is probably my favorite. This is a combination of the setting, shooting/combat mechanics, and the horizontal-style progression system. I really like the fact that keycodes are used as rewards, which allows me to choose what I want to do to acquire them depending on my mood.

I feel they have missed the mark with the lock boxes and mod system. Both are too restrictive and not rewarding enough, which is one of the causes of all the complaints. If the reward and customization (mod) systems they designed were less punitive, and were actually used to provide a rewarding experience more often, I believe many people would be more accepting of these types of systems. They have them so locked down at the moment, that I believe it simply makes players hate the system, instead of hating the current restrictions the devs have placed on these systems.

I played Age of Wushu for a short time. It has a pretty fun farming system. You have seeds and can plant them in a sort of grid on a field. You "own" the individual crops, so nobody else can bother them, but all of the open spots of fields are free to be planted. Your plants progress over a short amount of time and can be hit with a couple of conditions, such as pests or needing fertilizer, and you must use an appropriate item to combat these conditions or lose the crop. It's a fun little system, and I don't see why something like that couldn't be added.

Valethar
05-24-2013, 05:58 PM
All the whiners complaining about it not having content like WoW simply don't know the definition of MMORPG vs MMOTPS.

Defiance is not, and never was, an RPG, despite what people think they know. Trion has never made a secret of this, and has stated many times that it's a shooter with some RPG thrown in.

It will never have the same level of content a full blown RPG has.

Would it be nice if there was more to do? Certainly a bit more in the way of content wouldn't hurt. However, as others have mentioned, this isn't, and should not be, WoW with guns. There are other games out there that fit that mold if that's what you want. If that's what you're after, Defiance likely isn't the game for you.

Ensiger
05-24-2013, 06:16 PM
You seem to also be forgetting that one, this is NOT an FPS. This is a 3rd person shooter, which already clears it away from being like Dust 514 (which is FPS first, MMO second), or like PlanetSide2, or any other major FPS.

Also, you brought in a VERY, VERY contradictory statement in one of your paragraphs.

"Having played many rpg's in my time, online or otherwise, I can say that the last thing I want is for this game to be like wow, however the one thing that is causing everyone to get bored and quit is the lack of anything to work towards or look forward to."

There's a reason WoW is so popular, has millions of players, and more importantly, has had millions of players for a long time; there's hundreds of things you can focus on. Whether you enjoy WoW or not, they're obviously doing something right with having stuff that you can aim towards, whether it be achievements, or PvP rankings, or killing the latest raid boss, or countless other things that you can do. They have a LOT to do, and if, say, running around, collecting things isn't your cup of tea, you'll never be required to do it if you don't want to. It's a system that works, and because it's a system that works, 90% of MMO's have been/will be compared to WoW, because, let's face it, they've got a system that makes them a ton of money.

Oh, and endgame content is pretty self-explanatory; content for you to complete at the "end" of the game (max level). If there's nothing fun to do once you're done levelling, people will leave.

Biznatchio
05-24-2013, 08:16 PM
massive amount of players.

HUH?

Massive amount of players? what server are you playing on?

I rarely if ever see more than what looks like 30 people at a major arkfall. (NA) Server.

I'd love to see these so called 100 player arkfalls in the last two weeks- I call BS.

Anderson
05-24-2013, 08:20 PM
You seem to also be forgetting that one, this is NOT an FPS. This is a 3rd person shooter, which already clears it away from being like Dust 514 (which is FPS first, MMO second), or like PlanetSide2, or any other major FPS.

You can see your own dude. Totally different.

KOLZ
05-24-2013, 08:48 PM
You seem to also be forgetting that one, this is NOT an FPS. This is a 3rd person shooter, which already clears it away from being like Dust 514 (which is FPS first, MMO second), or like PlanetSide2, or any other major FPS.

Also, you brought in a VERY, VERY contradictory statement in one of your paragraphs.

"Having played many rpg's in my time, online or otherwise, I can say that the last thing I want is for this game to be like wow, however the one thing that is causing everyone to get bored and quit is the lack of anything to work towards or look forward to."

There's a reason WoW is so popular, has millions of players, and more importantly, has had millions of players for a long time; there's hundreds of things you can focus on. Whether you enjoy WoW or not, they're obviously doing something right with having stuff that you can aim towards, whether it be achievements, or PvP rankings, or killing the latest raid boss, or countless other things that you can do. They have a LOT to do, and if, say, running around, collecting things isn't your cup of tea, you'll never be required to do it if you don't want to. It's a system that works, and because it's a system that works, 90% of MMO's have been/will be compared to WoW, because, let's face it, they've got a system that makes them a ton of money.

Oh, and endgame content is pretty self-explanatory; content for you to complete at the "end" of the game (max level). If there's nothing fun to do once you're done levelling, people will leave.

You're also forgetting wow had lost millions of players and keeps dying each week and month that goes by unless you don't see the news of the constant people leaving. So yeah their so called system you talk about.. it doesn't exactly work. Their system is called lets dumb down the game in to stupid mode for the garbage casuals and lets play as a kung fu panda hunting pokemon..Yeah I wonder why each time the reports come the subs are leaving by the millions... So yeah lets keep on harping about their systejm huh?

Rasczak
05-24-2013, 09:42 PM
You're also forgetting wow had lost millions of players and keeps dying each week and month that goes by unless you don't see the news of the constant people leaving. So yeah their so called system you talk about.. it doesn't exactly work. Their system is called lets dumb down the game in to stupid mode for the garbage casuals and lets play as a kung fu panda hunting pokemon..Yeah I wonder why each time the reports come the subs are leaving by the millions... So yeah lets keep on harping about their systejm huh?

The game has been out almost 9 years, people are done with it. It's a simple matter of nothing lasts forever.

And it still has over 8 million left. Defiance couldn't get 8 million free forum accounts registered, despite all their marketing.

I'm not a WoW player anymore and haven't been for a bit. Nothing wrong with it, I just didn't feel like playing WoW anymore. But I can understand why it's been on top for so long, and why it is also finally bleeding players. It's way past time for that to happen, anyway.

But yes, their system had worked for 8 years, and at 8 million players is still working better than any other North American developed MMO out there.

But guess what, even Blizzard said late last year with the the costs of development having increased significantly since 2004, that in today's market the Themepark design is not a cost effective design anymore.

So, even Blizzard has stated it is time to change design systems to one more cost effective over the long haul. Of course, that also means releasing a game in a somewhat decent state, which is where Trion obviously missed the memo.

Mordeth Kai
05-25-2013, 04:19 PM
The game has been out almost 9 years, people are done with it. It's a simple matter of nothing lasts forever.

And it still has over 8 million left. Defiance couldn't get 8 million free forum accounts registered, despite all their marketing.

I'm not a WoW player anymore and haven't been for a bit. Nothing wrong with it, I just didn't feel like playing WoW anymore. But I can understand why it's been on top for so long, and why it is also finally bleeding players. It's way past time for that to happen, anyway.

But yes, their system had worked for 8 years, and at 8 million players is still working better than any other North American developed MMO out there.

But guess what, even Blizzard said late last year with the the costs of development having increased significantly since 2004, that in today's market the Themepark design is not a cost effective design anymore.

So, even Blizzard has stated it is time to change design systems to one more cost effective over the long haul. Of course, that also means releasing a game in a somewhat decent state, which is where Trion obviously missed the memo.

WOW did nothing new or special, not initially, but it took an age old system for its time and it did it well. WOW is dieing because its basic system and style is dated and no longer necessary. Furthermore, the old school style of MMO was always boring as hell. Also, I don't give a rats rear (expletives not allowed) how many people play WOW or how much money it made, I tried it and I hated it, and for me that's all that matters. There is no point in trying to compete with a well established system like WOW, even if it is dieing fast, far better to do something different.

About the WOW end game content BS. I play EVE online, it doesn't have a hundredth of the amount of players as WOW, and doesn't make a 10th of their money, but it also has no end game content, and many of their players have played 5-10 years in spite of no "end game content", most of them have more than one account, many of them have 3 or more, and its subscription based (any other system and the players would riot). Even after getting more money than they can spend, and playing the crap out of all the content, they still play. Unfortunately, most WOW players I've come ac cross can't imagine anything outside of WOW, which is where I have a problem. EVE also has a controlled damage system, like Defiance, no randomized stats on gear, every last part strictly controlled to keep it from being a numbers game like WOW, but Defiance isn't EVE nor should it be. The point is, "end game content" is a limited mentality, lose the end game and just think content and you will have something infinitely better.

@Cortechs Skyrim has a 2 part equipment crafting system that can be further enhanced by its alchemy system, but to give you the break down of it, the first part let you create a specific type of item and enhance its quality based on your crafting skill level, the second part let you choose enchantments for your equipment and choose their strength. It was a fun system, but it was also very easy to become OP really fast. The amount of freedom and control for the player is something I like, but if that system were introduced into defiance, being able to make the exact gun you want of the exact quality, that's all anyone would do for weapons and shields, and it would eliminate the lock boxes even more than they are now. Even more importantly, unless Trion managed to score a special deal with sony and microsoft (if so, way to go), they have to pay large sums of money for every update they upload, and they plan on 2 per month on both consoles as well as pc, they need the micro-transactions to work. White Knight Chronicles is a JRPG very similar to FF XII, the crafting system in the game was based on its numerous repeatable quests. All monsters dropped crafting components which are deposited automatically into a special crafting storage (of to 255 of every item could be stored), in addition to this, many quests dropped components that were exclusive to that quest (I.E. you have to do the correct quest to get the material). The system was pure recipe based, no blueprints or schematics, collect the raw materials, scroll through a menu of craftable items, and if you have the materials, make make what you want. This crafting system had numerous weapons and armor to be crafted, many of which were done purely for the cosmetic appeal, furthermore, it gave players a reason to grind certain quests if they wanted to, with a worthwhile reward. The game is a grindfest hands down, but never felt like it till the very end when working on max lvl gear because I went on whatever quest people were doing instead of repeating the same one, and never felt like my time was wasted or that the rewards were lacking, even when helping lowbies. No matter what the reward was I could use it for something, even if only to expand my collection. If a similar system were introduced to defiance, there would be a lot more motivation to do the challenges and side quests. Defiance has a decent amount of content, but the content all lacks incentive, I feel jipped for everything I do that does not advance the story except for the co-ops because of all the drops, and they get real old real fast. The content also needs more variety, and by that, I mean it needs a little more than just shooting things (I know about the races). If the WKC crafting system were implemented, they could sell boosts for material gathering, as well as the non quest specific materials themselves. Even if they only difference between the crafted gear and decent quality drops is cosmetic, it would still give people something to do, especially if there are crafted outfits and vehicles. With that said, I don't expect either crafting system to be implemented, I doubt a crafting system was ever considered based on the current layout of the game and putting one in would be a lot of trouble. I use Skyrim and WKC as examples because they are on polar opposite ends of the crafting spectrum. The major thing is that the game needs something for players to work towards, worthwhile rewards for time spent, it doesn't have that. Its fun to play, but it gets old fast.

Mordeth Kai
05-25-2013, 04:29 PM
Also, to everyone who wants to split hairs over 1'st and 3rd person shooter, get a life. There are differences, but they are so minor that only the anal retentive would bother with them.

Anderson
05-25-2013, 04:45 PM
Also, to everyone who wants to split hairs over 1'st and 3rd person shooter, get a life. There are differences, but they are so minor that only the anal retentive would bother with them.

The first person perspective is more immersive and realistic because you have no peripheral vision and you're never really sure where your feet are. Just like real life!

Gratty
05-25-2013, 04:49 PM
WOW did nothing new or special, not initially, but it took an age old system for its time and it did it well. WOW is dieing because its basic system and style is dated and no longer necessary. Furthermore, the old school style of MMO was always boring as hell. Also, I don't give a rats rear (expletives not allowed) how many people play WOW or how much money it made, I tried it and I hated it, and for me that's all that matters. There is no point in trying to compete with a well established system like WOW, even if it is dieing fast, far better to do something different.

About the WOW end game content BS. I play EVE online, it doesn't have a hundredth of the amount of players as WOW, and doesn't make a 10th of their money, but it also has no end game content, and many of their players have played 5-10 years in spite of no "end game content", most of them have more than one account, many of them have 3 or more. Even after getting more money than they can spend, and playing the crap out of all the content, they still play. Unfortunately, most WOW players I've come ac cross can't imagine anything outside of WOW, which is where I have a problem. EVE also has a controlled damage system, like Defiance, no randomized stats on gear, every last part strictly controlled to keep it from being a numbers game like WOW, but Defiance isn't EVE nor should it be. The point is, "end game content" is a limited mentality, lose the end game and just think content and you will have something infinitely better.

@Cortechs Skyrim has a 2 part equipment crafting system that can be further enhanced by its alchemy system, but to give you the break down of it, the first part let you create a specific type of item and enhance its quality based on your crafting skill level, the second part let you choose enchantments for your equipment and choose their strength. It was a fun system, but it was also very easy to become OP really fast. The amount of freedom and control for the player is something I like, but if that system were introduced into defiance, being able to make the exact gun you want of the exact quality, that's all anyone would do for weapons and shields, and it would eliminate the lock boxes even more than they are now. Even more importantly, unless Trion managed to score a special deal with sony and microsoft (if so, way to go), they have to pay large sums of money for every update they upload, and they plan on 2 per month on both consoles as well as pc, they need the micro-transactions to work. White Knight Chronicles is a JRPG very similar to FF XII, the crafting system in the game was based on its numerous repeatable quests. All monsters dropped crafting components which are deposited automatically into a special crafting storage (of to 255 of every item could be stored), in addition to this, many quests dropped components that were exclusive to that quest (I.E. you have to do the correct quest to get the material). The system was pure recipe based, no blueprints or schematics, collect the raw materials, scroll through a menu of craftable items, and if you have the materials, make make what you want. This crafting system had numerous weapons and armor to be crafted, many of which were done purely for the cosmetic appeal, furthermore, it gave players a reason to grind certain quests if they wanted to, with a worthwhile reward. The game is a grindfest hands down, but never felt like it till the very end when working on max lvl gear because I went on whatever quest people were doing instead of repeating the same one, and never felt like my time was wasted or that the rewards were lacking, even when helping lowbies. No matter what the reward was I could use it for something, even if only to expand my collection. If a similar system were introduced to defiance, there would be a lot more motivation to do the challenges and side quests. Defiance has a decent amount of content, but the content all lacks incentive, I feel jipped for everything I do that does not advance the story except for the co-ops because of all the drops, and they get real old real fast. The content also needs more variety, and by that, I mean it needs a little more than just shooting things (I know about the races). If the WKC crafting system were implemented, they could sell boosts for material gathering, as well as the non quest specific materials themselves. Even if they only difference between the crafted gear and decent quality drops is cosmetic, it would still give people something to do, especially if there are crafted outfits and vehicles. With that said, I don't expect either crafting system to be implemented, I doubt a crafting system was ever considered based on the current layout of the game and putting one in would be a lot of trouble. I use Skyrim and WKC as examples because they are on polar opposite ends of the crafting spectrum. The major thing is that the game needs something for players to work towards, worthwhile rewards for time spent, it doesn't have that. Its fun to play, but it gets old fast.

Judging this intimidating wall from the last few sentences, I agree. I hate not having anything that feels rewarding. Nothing to work for. Unfortunately I don't think that will ever change.

Chuffy
05-25-2013, 04:52 PM
...because it's a system that works, 90% of MMO's have been/will be compared to WoW, because, let's face it, they've got a system that makes them a ton of money.

It is system that doesn't work, which is why all the games that have tried to copy that system have got nowhere near the numbers of WoW and normally within a year of release have lost most of their playerbase. Indeed the only other MMORPG other than WoW to actually grow over a prolonged period of time (in the West) is EVE, which is niche and does things very differently to WoW.

WoW is not successful because of the system as such, it is successful because it was released at a time when there was far less competition, there were not hundreds of things to do in WoW when it was released, but then neither was there a huge choice of MMORPGs to go and play. The result of which was WoW hit a sort of critical mass in numbers, which is a very big advantage over any new MMORPG, as is the years of content and that for many newbs it is the only MMORPG they have ever heard of and will try it first.

The fact is the themepark MMORPG genre is saturated, stagnant and full of games that flop.

harly
05-25-2013, 04:57 PM
Yeah i seen this efore he is write a biography on the game,,,,lol

Timebandit
05-25-2013, 05:14 PM
wow skill and talent system may now be a joke but the story depth and player immersion is awesome.the key here is replayability many quest and storylines have you comming back for more.

be it listening too an orc gnome human and dwarf talk about deathwing comming.or helping a dragon save the black dragon flight only to have her die and be gifted with her only surviving egg.or helping a crazy archeologist named harrison jones.blizzards ability to draw the gamer into the story and create an emotional attachment to the charters,you laugh you cry you get angry.game companies could learn from looking at those aspects of wow

Schwa
05-25-2013, 05:15 PM
Trion has the right philosophy for a TPS-MMO, they just implemented it so poorly players want to "fix" it by copy/pasting other more familiar systems on top of it.

This is an audience's natural response to an author/developer misfiring the implementation.

To shorten it further, if an author/developer wants to step outside of their genre with plot/systems, they need to show the audience why their decision is better than the "normal" way of doing things. If they fail to show how their decision is "better" they'll end up with an audience that wants them to do things the "right" (copy-pasted) way.

Trion hasn't been able to sell its audience on its decisions yet. That's Trion's fault, not the audience's-- if you have to explain a joke, it's a bad delivery; if you have to explain a design decision, it's a bad implementation.

Gratty
05-25-2013, 09:38 PM
This whole game is just a lot of copy and paste.

Mordeth Kai
05-26-2013, 11:00 AM
Trion has the right philosophy for a TPS-MMO, they just implemented it so poorly players want to "fix" it by copy/pasting other more familiar systems on top of it.

This is an audience's natural response to an author/developer misfiring the implementation.

To shorten it further, if an author/developer wants to step outside of their genre with plot/systems, they need to show the audience why their decision is better than the "normal" way of doing things. If they fail to show how their decision is "better" they'll end up with an audience that wants them to do things the "right" (copy-pasted) way.

Trion hasn't been able to sell its audience on its decisions yet. That's Trion's fault, not the audience's-- if you have to explain a joke, it's a bad delivery; if you have to explain a design decision, it's a bad implementation.

+1 This, the absolute truth