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View Full Version : Tuning Weapons to Improve Balance - More Tuning Needed



Calidorn
05-25-2013, 05:57 AM
Honestly, I understand the concept of wanting to tune weapons to improve the balance of weapons in PvP.

As many have already stated, the problem is that this "tuning" of weapons is affecting PvE. If you wanted to improve the balance of weapons in PvP then you should have done so, but it should have been for PVP ONLY.

You are tuning weapons to improve balance, but while you are tuning weapons that players are using, you are forgetting to tune down NPC's to reflect the downgrading of weapons for players.

I am sure that there are many of players, like myself, that do not PvP and do not care about PvP. By tuning weapons to improve balance, you are not improving the game for everyone. You might be leveling the playing field for players that compete in PvP, but you are hurting me and all players like me that enjoy the PvE aspect of the game.

Before you begin "tuning" (or should I say, "nerfing") anything else that players use, think about the environment of the PvE world.

It is the players that enjoy PvE over PvP that will keep your fanbase alive. Those that are logging in each day for the PvP aspect of the game will only move on once they grow tired of the PvP in this game or another "newer" or more interesting game with better PvP is released.

The newer console systems are being released. PC games have been held back due to the need of keeping requirements for older PCs. Now that will not be true, they will have to upgrade their games to match those of the consoles in order to keep a gaming fanbase and not lose those players to consoles.

Unless you are going to release Defiance on the new consoles with better graphics and gameplay, you better make sure the PvE fanbase is appeased. If not, no matter what you do, your sales will lower and whenever the next MMORPG is released, you will notice it.

Arsenic_Touch
05-25-2013, 06:00 AM
Cutting off the nose to spite the face, IMO.
They've already shown us that they can split the pvp and pve values.
Why they continue to make the same mistake that all mmos have when they balance for pvp and screw up pve is just beyond me.

Just find it funny that they're nerfing weapons in a system where base stats are the same across the board... it's just kind of hilarious.

Don't grow attached to anything. I'm waiting for them to screw up my single shot AR with a burst mod in it.

Cortechs
05-25-2013, 06:20 AM
So, I all ever hear is how easy the game is. What exactly is giving you trouble since the patch? Specifics please?

Frankly, I think most weapons could take a 50% cut (not that I want that) and PvE would still be easy. If you notice, most players run around with the best-in-class weapons, using everything that gives them the biggest damage numbers (like Overcharge or Cloak + Shadowed Strike).

I typically run through PvE using Rocket Launchers. I was leveling Detonators, but it made PvE so trivial that I stopped leveling it. I don't know, if I can take on PvE using 15 max ammo Rocket Launchers that typically have a clip size of 1-2, I have a hard time believing it is all that difficult for Shotguns and Detonators now.

Myria
05-25-2013, 06:27 AM
So, I all ever hear is how easy the game is. What exactly is giving you trouble since the patch? Specifics please?

It's not really a matter of ease or difficulty, nor is nerfing the holy crap out of someone's favorite weapon a good way to add difficulty to the game. For that you need decent AI and mechanics that require tactics to overcome, not just make mobs bigger and better bullet sponges with pinpoint aim and infinite range.

fmarin83
05-25-2013, 06:39 AM
There are people posting that the game has gotten harder. I'm on my third storyline run and now i got oranges and purples and yes the game is harder because the guns have been nerfed. I thought it would be a cakewalk but its not, also the pathing and intelligence (imo especially Raiders) has been fixed to make them the kind of enemy Trion expected them to be. The only problem is that the guns were supposed to fight them with are so low on stats that it doesnt matter.

For example: Just doing Locate the Lost with my Orange Pump Action Shotgun, it takes like 6-8 rounds in a normal MUTANT RIFLEMAN's face to kill him. Switch to another weapon and simliar results.

ATM i feel bad for people trying the story mode with greens.

Cortechs
05-25-2013, 06:50 AM
It's not really a matter of ease or difficulty, nor is nerfing the holy crap out of someone's favorite weapon a good way to add difficulty to the game. For that you need decent AI and mechanics that require tactics to overcome, not just make mobs bigger and better bullet sponges with pinpoint aim and infinite range.

Again, the "holy crap"? Please elaborate. This is an honest question. What has changed so drastically?

And frankly, the AI is pretty darn good for an MMO. Most MMOs have two AI scripts:

Melee mob paths to player (if it doesn't get stuck) and autoattacks.
Ranged mob attacks player from range. Adjusts position to regain LOS if broken.
Sometimes you get a mob like a boar that charges.

Here mobs:

Flank (Blitzers and to some extent 99ers)
Charge (Raider Rioters)
Use cover (most humanoids)
Lob grenades if you go into cover
Adjust their tactic based on your weapon (Blitzers)
Dodge rockets (Hellbug Archers)
Burrow and Suprise Attack (Hellbug Warriors)
Leap (Hellbug Skitterlings ... though mostly useless)


They continue to improve the AI. The new AI with the last episode content was much improved, and the Raider Rioters recently got the charge move (though I think it needs some further tweaking).

I think one of the big problems is that players obliterate the mobs so quickly that they never get to witness the AI use tactics.

Calidorn
05-25-2013, 06:51 AM
So, I all ever hear is how easy the game is. What exactly is giving you trouble since the patch? Specifics please?

Frankly, I think most weapons could take a 50% cut (not that I want that) and PvE would still be easy. If you notice, most players run around with the best-in-class weapons, using everything that gives them the biggest damage numbers (like Overcharge or Cloak + Shadowed Strike).

I typically run through PvE using Rocket Launchers. I was leveling Detonators, but it made PvE so trivial that I stopped leveling it. I don't know, if I can take on PvE using 15 max ammo Rocket Launchers that typically have a clip size of 1-2, I have a hard time believing it is all that difficult for Shotguns and Detonators now.

Haha, I'm not laughing at you or your post mind you. But while some players use cloak for big damage numbers, I use it as a way to save my arse from dying and try to recharge my health so I can turn around and fight again.

With weapons, one of my issues is with the shotgun tuning. I use a variety of shotguns. Unlike some players, I like to experiment and do not always use the best of the best. I have noticed that some of the shotguns I use have had their damage reduced by reducing the amount of pellets that were being shot. Also, it seems that my shotgun range has decreased. I am not sure it has, but it seems that I need to get closer for more pellets to hit than prior to this patch. (Although it might have to do with the reduction of pellets being shot)

I only use Detonators for certain situations (like matriarchs) and I am not in the least a skilled player when it comes to aiming. With that being said, unless it is a synch and guided rocket launcher, I could actually miss half of the moving targets before I run out of ammo. And, since I am horrible at aiming at moving targets, I tend to use weapons with burst damage or weapons that do not deplete the ammo reserve at a fast pace or I will be facing additional NPCs while I have ran out of ammo on my main weapons that I use.

While the game has not turned into a "impossible" setting, I find it more difficult to take out targets than before. I do not have friends I co-op with, nor am I in a clan, so most of my missions are solo ran unless I am lucky enough to find someone on the same quest while I am doing mine.

As a solo-mission runner, I have found that it takes killing NPCs longer than it has prior to the patch. Some missions require me to leave the area and acquire more ammo and before the patch I was able to complete the mission with the ammo I had on me. Also, since it requires a briefly longer time to kill a NPC, it means that I die more often because the NPCs are hitting me longer as well.

The problem I have is not that it takes me longer to kill a NPC or that my weapons has been "nerfed" so to speak, but that the NPC weapon is the same as before. So it takes me longer to kill a NPC, it takes the NPC the same time as before to kill me.

That being said, I would like a tuning of the NPCs. Their weapons remain the same power as prior to the patch. I would like it if their weapons were "tuned" to that of the player's. It is not making the game impossible. Actually, in my opinion, it will or has caused players to create new tactics and become more skilled at how he/she used to tackle missions.

But if player's weapons and perks are being "tuned" to be less powerful, I would appreciate it if the NPCs were "tuned" just as we have been.

It affects the solo players in this game, which I am one. The players that log on and have a rl friend, spouse, clan member, or friend they have met in game to group with probably has not noticed this. The developers of this game were fine with the way the playstyle was at launch. They did not anticipate problems with weapons in PvP. Trying to fix PvP has caused the PvE aspects of perks and weapons to be lowered. Unfortunately, I do not think the developers thought of this. They were worried about losing players because of complaints of PvP being unbalanced. So now, since perks and weapons have been downgraded in order for PvP matches to be longer, it has caused PvE to become more difficult.

As I said previously, this is something that I believe the developers did not think of. But, I believe they should consider the implications of trying to balance PvP and see how it has affected PvE and try to differentiate the two rather than have all perks and weapons in one category. Separate the two into PvE and PvP and address accordingly, not as one entity, because they are not.

Calidorn
05-25-2013, 06:53 AM
And I would like to apologize for my book, didn't realize it was that long.

Myria
05-25-2013, 06:53 AM
And frankly, the AI is pretty darn good for an MMO.

And with this it becomes clear we'll have to agree to disagree, as there is no basis for meaningful discussion.

Cortechs
05-25-2013, 06:54 AM
There are people posting that the game has gotten harder. I'm on my third storyline run and now i got oranges and purples and yes the game is harder because the guns have been nerfed. I thought it would be a cakewalk but its not, also the pathing and intelligence (imo especially Raiders) has been fixed to make them the kind of enemy Trion expected them to be. The only problem is that the guns were supposed to fight them with are so low on stats that it doesnt matter.

For example: Just doing Locate the Lost with my Orange Pump Action Shotgun, it takes like 6-8 rounds in a normal MUTANT RIFLEMAN's face to kill him. Switch to another weapon and simliar results.

ATM i feel bad for people trying the story mode with greens.

Actually, Raiders had the best AI out of all the enemies all along. I just think most people obliterated them so quickly that they didn't realize it.

Orbital
05-25-2013, 06:59 AM
it seems easier to me, but then again my mods are finally working more as they should be...

Cortechs
05-25-2013, 07:39 AM
And with this it becomes clear we'll have to agree to disagree, as there is no basis for meaningful discussion.


● Fixed the endlessly respawning Raiders at Verdant Ridge.

I was one of the players who spent quite a bit of time there. I also did it using two of the lowest DPS weapons in the game, BMGs and Rocket Launchers, so I had plenty of time to observer their AI. But you are correct, discussing the AI with players who are used to 1-shotted everything with their shiny shotguns is largely fruitless.

Calidorn
05-25-2013, 05:17 PM
I was one of the players who spent quite a bit of time there. I also did it using two of the lowest DPS weapons in the game, BMGs and Rocket Launchers, so I had plenty of time to observer their AI. But you are correct, discussing the AI with players who are used to 1-shotted everything with their shiny shotguns is largely fruitless.

Were players one shotting NPCs, players, or both? I am just curious because I have never been able to one shot a NPC with a shotgun.

Players with horrible skills, apparently like myself, are having more difficulties with the tuning of weapons for PvP. Or perhaps it is just me because I do not have the skills to play a shooter game.

3rdpig
05-25-2013, 06:17 PM
Doesn't matter whether PvE is easy or not. What matters is that the vast majority of players are casual players who like lower difficulty type games. Look at ME3 MP, over 80% play in Bronze or Silver matches, and this is Bioware's own numbers. Make it too hard for casual gamers to play the game and have FUN doing it and you'll see a mass exodus and a large reduction in Trion's in game sales. And in game sales is what keeps the game free for the rest of us. So don't nerf their guns, it's not necessary. Want more of a challenge, use a pistol or one of the newly nerfed shotguns.

Calidorn
05-27-2013, 05:12 PM
Doesn't matter whether PvE is easy or not. What matters is that the vast majority of players are casual players who like lower difficulty type games. Look at ME3 MP, over 80% play in Bronze or Silver matches, and this is Bioware's own numbers. Make it too hard for casual gamers to play the game and have FUN doing it and you'll see a mass exodus and a large reduction in Trion's in game sales. And in game sales is what keeps the game free for the rest of us. So don't nerf their guns, it's not necessary. Want more of a challenge, use a pistol or one of the newly nerfed shotguns.

All of what you said is true. I'm a casual player and I'd rather progress in a game than log on to die repeatedly with the hopes of finishing one mission before I have to go to bed for work only to log in the next day to see if I can finish the same mission I was on previously.

You sir, hit the nail on the head.