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Wraieth
05-25-2013, 04:33 PM
Theres alot of people defending the game wich is fine. theres alot of people bashing the game wich is also fine.But the simple truth like it or not is this.

I dont care how long it takes to work out bugs and other issues in game. Thats thier jobs just like mines catching bad guys another poster is an electrition. Your what ever you do.

Its why they do the patches behind the scenes ,its why the test them on a closed server, its why they are supposed to work this out before release. So if they do all that then still release these bug ridden patches and fail to fix things they claim are fixed. Then it is THIER FAULT.

We did our part we played beta. We reported bugs . Hell even when that wasnt fixed we bought the game. So if they fail at thier jobs its no exscuse it is simply a fail and the reasoning behind it makes no matter at all.

If we all fail at our jobs we have failed its no diffrent for them. I dont give a flying leap what the reason is fail is fail. We all have done it at some point. And sure it happenes to us all. But if it is a constant fail and a constant mistakes being made .It isnt long till we have no job or worse for some of us. They are no diffrent its a job they do a service they work for someone.

If they continue to fail then toss thier *** out and get someone who can but for gods sake stop defending thier **** ups.. Sure i like the game and sure i will keep playing.

Hell i like ny mets but dosnt keep them from sucking. but whats the point of pretending things arnt busted. And how much is enough?

People can bash them praise them kiss thier arses or kick them to the curb in the end it makes no diffrence they have gotten things right and wrong. but just because they got some things right dosnt exscuse the wrong. atleast not in my book.

Oh and before anyone says something about this being the truth. Its my truth it is how i percieve it if you dont see it this way. then more power to you,

p.s i have both defended this game and called them out on stupid crap. But im just about out of defense in this games case. Again just my own perspective not asking anyone to feel the same.

rockapeUK
05-25-2013, 04:44 PM
What is the point you are attempting to discuss here because all I see is another rant ?

marshy
05-25-2013, 04:46 PM
You sir hit the nail bang on the head the devs on the team are not doing there job.
My thoughts is they have give up with this game as it is not profitable for them due to poor sales across all platforms. Player numbers are falling everyday if you don't believe me go to mount tam have a look how many new players there is ?? Add to that players giving up

ItISLupus
05-25-2013, 04:47 PM
What is the point you are attempting to discuss here because all I see is another rant ?

+1. TL;DR

By OP's logic if he fails in his job he should be drawn and quartered.

Wraieth
05-25-2013, 04:49 PM
What is the point you are attempting to discuss here because all I see is another rant ?

my point is simple. It dosnt matter if its code work . electrical, plumbing or pumping freaking gas at the quicky mart. If you have a job do it right or get someone who can.

The gameing industry should be no different.

Wraieth
05-25-2013, 04:51 PM
+1. TL;DR

By OP's logic if he fails in his job he should be drawn and quartered.

if i fail on my job someone could end up very dead. so maybe that makes me alittle biased but dosnt change the fact if you cant do your job right then you should be replaced by someone who can.

harly
05-25-2013, 04:53 PM
Lol ,,,i no what you meen ,,like is he writeing a book about it,,,,lol

mbergeron
05-25-2013, 04:57 PM
How have they failed at their job? They are working on fixing problems that are coming up. Their job is not over and they are constantly working on the problems. The have not failed until they stop working on the problems and just give up which is not the case. If you fail on catching someone one week does that mean you failed? No, you keep searching for that person until you catch them.

DSX
05-25-2013, 05:01 PM
if i fail on my job someone could end up very dead. so maybe that makes me alittle biased but dosnt change the fact if you cant do your job right then you should be replaced by someone who can.

The problem though, which even you touched on in your first post is perception. Failure in video game design isn't a binary state like "Police: criminal caught, criminal got away" or "Electrician: electricity works, electricity doesn't work."

While everyone might agree an instance which fails to load is an obvious bug that needs to be addressed, not everyone would argue that PVP is broken, or something is too easy, or prices too low, or RNG isn't optimal. Sweeping generalizations about failure and comparisons to other professions are not the answer.

rockapeUK
05-25-2013, 05:03 PM
my point is simple. It dosnt matter if its code work . electrical, plumbing or pumping freaking gas at the quicky mart. If you have a job do it right or get someone who can.

The gameing industry should be no different.

Not so, with plumbing etc action A with tool B on object C equals result D. The same happens with coding except that there is the possibilty of event E happening too. Another way of looking at it is taking your plumber, he fixes the leaky tap in the kitchen meaning the water pressure in the system raises ever so slightly because the leak was relieving it. Now that increase is too much for the tap in the bathroom so it starts leaking.

Lines of code rarely do anything that does not affect something else.

Xenosaj
05-25-2013, 05:22 PM
Idk about you guys, but I had no idea OP was Trion's employer; I mean, he must be, if he's the one who gets to decide what defines their job.

Sarcasm aside, I wonder if OP has ever had a job. Because if he has, it's inevitable that he's screwed up something at least once at any job he's done. I hope for his sake his employers haven't shared this "one strike and you're out" mentality that he does. People make mistakes; expecting them to be perfect is unrealistic. The only time I could ever see this attitude being acceptable is when you're talking about a doctor performing a surgery that he's done before but that could easily end a patient's life if done incorrectly. Expecting perfection out of the doctor in that situation is understandable; expecting perfection out of a business producing a video game is hardly on the same level, yet OP acts like it is.

Reminds me of this girl: http://www.wetpaint.com/moms/articles/2013-05-23-girl-expelled-school-explosion-full. A zero tolerance policy has good intentions, but what it'll end up doing is making anyone afraid to attempt anything for fear of bringing the wrath of Odin down upon them. Continue treating game companies like this, and we'll end up with nothing but CoD and other cookie-cutter games rather than something that tries something new at the risk of having bugs and unexpected issues and the all important nerd anger.

TL;DR--stop having unrealistic expectations, and stop making incorrect analogies.

ralisti
05-25-2013, 05:31 PM
Not so, with plumbing etc action A with tool B on object C equals result D. The same happens with coding except that there is the possibilty of event E happening too. Another way of looking at it is taking your plumber, he fixes the leaky tap in the kitchen meaning the water pressure in the system raises ever so slightly because the leak was relieving it. Now that increase is too much for the tap in the bathroom so it starts leaking.

Lines of code rarely do anything that does not affect something else.

This is why there is Quality Assurance testing, to ensure that unforeseen issues are caught and fixed. It is the developers jobs to code what is needed, and be a bug free as possible. It is the QA testers job to test the code, and if issues are found to kick it back to development to fix.

While I can not speak for Trion's hierarchy, there is usually a delivery team who job is to ensure that the code, once locked down, is released in a way to minimize the impact to the customer...and if things go south, it is the delivery teams job to pull the patch, roll back the server, and send customer service out to try and minimize the negative impact.

Trion has failed all these jobs. The developers release code that is so buggy, I am surprised it compiles. I do not even think they have a QA team (they probably moved them to Spin Doctor, I mean Customer Service). The delivery team can not implement a competent patching to save their lives, and instead of pulling the patch and rolling back, would rather have their customers unable to access the game for hours and hours beyond the projected timeline. And Customer Service....they have a bot at the live chat, who just reads a script and pushes buttons IF he is allowed, and on the forums CS basically just locks negative threads.

Outside of the gaming industry, software as pathetic as Defiance would result in at least a refund to the customer. However, it is almost impossible to get a refund for a game, so customers are left with one recourse...vent their frustrations on the forums. Yes, the majority know that Trion could give a rat's *** about them. Most have, deep down, accepted the fact that no matter what Trion does in the game, they will fail. But let them have their place to vent....after all, for some it is a tough pill to swallow to lose $60+ on an over hype and mismanaged game.

ralisti
05-25-2013, 06:00 PM
Idk about you guys, but I had no idea OP was Trion's employer; I mean, he must be, if he's the one who gets to decide what defines their job.

Sarcasm aside, I wonder if OP has ever had a job. Because if he has, it's inevitable that he's screwed up something at least once at any job he's done. I hope for his sake his employers haven't shared this "one strike and you're out" mentality that he does. People make mistakes; expecting them to be perfect is unrealistic. The only time I could ever see this attitude being acceptable is when you're talking about a doctor performing a surgery that he's done before but that could easily end a patient's life if done incorrectly. Expecting perfection out of the doctor in that situation is understandable; expecting perfection out of a business producing a video game is hardly on the same level, yet OP acts like it is.

Reminds me of this girl: http://www.wetpaint.com/moms/articles/2013-05-23-girl-expelled-school-explosion-full. A zero tolerance policy has good intentions, but what it'll end up doing is making anyone afraid to attempt anything for fear of bringing the wrath of Odin down upon them. Continue treating game companies like this, and we'll end up with nothing but CoD and other cookie-cutter games rather than something that tries something new at the risk of having bugs and unexpected issues and the all important nerd anger.

TL;DR--stop having unrealistic expectations, and stop making incorrect analogies.

I am sorry, but a gaming company brings this on themselves by over hyping their products to the moon, and then delivering a shoddy product which does nothing but frustrate and inconvenience their customer.

If Trion delivered on the hype, pushed out fixes on a reasonable time table and without many issues outside of the downtime, I would be the first to applaud them.

However, if I order a burger at McDonald's and it is given to me half raw and tasting like card board, I have the right to complain. If I hire an electrician to work on my house with a time given of 4 hours for the work, and 3 days later the work is not only not done, but when I turn on my lights, my toilet flushes, I have a right to complain.

TL;DR If Trion does not like the negative opinions, they need to do what is needed to turn those negative opinions to positive one. They they try something and the negative opinions get worse, more of the same is not going to make things better.

Cortechs
05-25-2013, 06:17 PM
+1. TL;DR

By OP's logic if he fails in his job he should be drawn and quartered.

Can I buy tickets?

baelrusk
05-25-2013, 06:55 PM
However, if I order a burger at McDonald's and it is given to me half raw and tasting like card board, I have the right to complain. If I hire an electrician to work on my house with a time given of 4 hours for the work, and 3 days later the work is not only not done, but when I turn on my lights, my toilet flushes, I have a right to complain.

I ordered a burger at Wendy's once and got nothing but an empty bun, lettuce and tomato.......just missing the burger. Maybe this is partially a good way to describe this.

BigO518
05-25-2013, 07:24 PM
Sarcasm aside, I wonder if OP has ever had a job. Because if he has, it's inevitable that he's screwed up something at least once at any job he's done. I hope for his sake his employers haven't shared this "one strike and you're out" mentality that he does. People make mistakes; expecting them to be perfect is unrealistic. The only time I could ever see this attitude being acceptable is when you're talking about a doctor performing a surgery that he's done before but that could easily end a patient's life if done incorrectly. Expecting perfection out of the doctor in that situation is understandable; expecting perfection out of a business producing a video game is hardly on the same level, yet OP acts like it is.

I wonder if you have ever had a real job yourself.

I am not a programmer, but I do work in the IT Field and work directly with 50-60 programmers every day. If they give me a program that doesn't work as intended, guess what it goes back to them to fix it. It will continue to go back to them until it works as it should. Until that point it doesn't see the light of day in any way shape or form. Guess what, if they continually screw up their programs on a consistent basis, they get fired, just like would happen to me if I constantly screw up my job. Letting game programmers have a pass because "they have such a difficult job" is a joke. If you constantly give game programmers a pass then your going to end up with nothing but crap for games, because they will have no reason to put in the effort to make them better or, in this case make them work freaking properly in the first place.

fmarin83
05-25-2013, 07:33 PM
if you come back and try the game in 3 months you might like it more with updates. atleast there is no subs to worry about. I feel that once season 1 on tv ends that more time/money will be spent on the game. Right now i feel too much time is probably spent in PR type of investments and not into the game.

Matsutake
05-25-2013, 07:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IsSpNWOavo

Anderson
05-25-2013, 07:37 PM
So how are we supposed to hold game developers accountable anyway? What are you gonna do, just NOT buy the really awesome looking new games? Yeah, right.

Laggmaster
05-25-2013, 07:49 PM
you know i think the game is a load of fun but has its issues. that being said i bought this game from a friend (for $20) who just got deployed to Iraq, and because of the issues in the game which annoy me to no end i am not buying bits and supporting the developer untill the game is stable enough to actually warrant me spending real life money for digital items in a game that has no real generated lifespan (game could last 6 months before nobody is on the servers any more)...

so maybe people should just stop complaining that the devs arnt doing there job and just stop playing the game and show the developers what you realy think of there game instead of logging in after you troll on some forums for a coupple of hours...

ghost_ol3a
05-25-2013, 07:56 PM
i never failed :) this game just needs to last 4 more months. then GTA 5 drops, then this game can die out for all i care

fmarin83
05-25-2013, 07:58 PM
i never failed :) this game just needs to last 4 more months. then GTA 5 drops, then this game can die out for all i care

Pics of the Special Edition and Collector Editions are on GameStop.com now. They went live today for pre-order.

ghost_ol3a
05-25-2013, 08:10 PM
Pics of the Special Edition and Collector Editions are on GameStop.com now. They went live today for pre-order.

i pre-ordered months ago lol

Xenosaj
05-25-2013, 09:12 PM
I wonder if you have ever had a real job yourself.

I am not a programmer, but I do work in the IT Field and work directly with 50-60 programmers every day. If they give me a program that doesn't work as intended, guess what it goes back to them to fix it. It will continue to go back to them until it works as it should. Until that point it doesn't see the light of day in any way shape or form. Guess what, if they continually screw up their programs on a consistent basis, they get fired, just like would happen to me if I constantly screw up my job. Letting game programmers have a pass because "they have such a difficult job" is a joke. If you constantly give game programmers a pass then your going to end up with nothing but crap for games, because they will have no reason to put in the effort to make them better or, in this case make them work freaking properly in the first place.

Yes, I have, several over the past twenty years. I get what you guys are saying, but you're still making inaccurate analogies. You say you work in the IT field; do you work at a company running servers hit by millions of users each day? Then you should know there's no way in hell that such a program can be adequately simulated in a closed offline environment, and thus no way to predict and counter each and every problem that crops up. When has there ever been any kind of online game that didn't have issues?

Look, I'm not saying don't expect Trion to fix the problems Defiance has. We bought the game, parts of it aren't working as intended, it is indeed their responsibility to try and correct them. I fully agree with that. But this attitude that way too many people seem to have of "They screwed up, fire them and never let them have a job again!" is not only unrealistic but counterproductive. If I were a game developer, and this was the reaction I was constantly bombarded with, I'd say the hell with it and never produce a game again. I'm sure that would please some of you, but what will you do when you go to play a different game and you run into the same issue, where there's problems and the developer can't get them fixed on a timetable that you're satisfied with? Draw and quarter them as well? Eventually you run off all the game developers and congratulations you've just killed the very hobby you're trying to enjoy.

ralisti
05-26-2013, 04:45 PM
Yes, I have, several over the past twenty years. I get what you guys are saying, but you're still making inaccurate analogies. You say you work in the IT field; do you work at a company running servers hit by millions of users each day? Then you should know there's no way in hell that such a program can be adequately simulated in a closed offline environment, and thus no way to predict and counter each and every problem that crops up. When has there ever been any kind of online game that didn't have issues?

Look, I'm not saying don't expect Trion to fix the problems Defiance has. We bought the game, parts of it aren't working as intended, it is indeed their responsibility to try and correct them. I fully agree with that. But this attitude that way too many people seem to have of "They screwed up, fire them and never let them have a job again!" is not only unrealistic but counterproductive. If I were a game developer, and this was the reaction I was constantly bombarded with, I'd say the hell with it and never produce a game again. I'm sure that would please some of you, but what will you do when you go to play a different game and you run into the same issue, where there's problems and the developer can't get them fixed on a timetable that you're satisfied with? Draw and quarter them as well? Eventually you run off all the game developers and congratulations you've just killed the very hobby you're trying to enjoy.

I am employed by a company which has millions of people using the servers we are responsible for (major player in the Telecom industry). Do we make mistakes? Yes, they occasionally happen regardless of how much testing we do.

When they happen, everyone is on board looking for the problem, what is causing it, and what it will take to fix it. This is expected information is less than 30 minutes.

If the problem is one that can not be fixed easily, takes a long time to fix, or can not be diagnosed within 30 minutes, the servers are rolled back to the previous state before the updates. In this case, our company takes a hit and the client will want just a RCA (root cause analysis) but the problem to be resolved by at the latest the EOD (end of day) the next day.

If a team constantly makes these mistakes, then the team come under heavy inspection which usually results in management and/or members of the team being terminated.

The difference between my job and the job Trion is doing? I am held to almost immediate responsibility if I make a mistake. I can not quietly fix it, and hope the customers do not notice. I can not keep my clients in the dark about issues, and ignore their complaints when they notice.

Now tell me, why should Trion be given a free pass for constantly turning out patches with exceed greatly the projected down time, and usually introduce more issues then it fixes (if it actually fixes anything)? If my company can do it, Trion should be able to also. If not, then they need to have repercussions for failing to perform their job at a reasonable level.

EDIT: Just for note, the average lost income for 30 minutes of interrupted service for our client is > $1 million.

Anderson
05-26-2013, 04:53 PM
Now tell me, why should Trion be given a free pass for constantly turning out patches with exceed greatly the projected down time, and usually introduce more issues then it fixes (if it actually fixes anything)?
I think you answered your own question:


EDIT: Just for note, the average lost income for 30 minutes of interrupted service for our client is > $1 million.

ralisti
05-26-2013, 05:08 PM
I think you answered your own question:

Yeah, that was why I added that. Trion does not care about the people currently playing. They are having a rough time selling Bits, and once you buy the game they already have your money.

I just hope to see a resume from someone that says Trion on it, so I can laugh as I give my disapproval. Shoddy coding will haunt a person forever. I am sure that those already let go are learning that. Project managers in charge of a debacle like this have it ever worse.

Anderson
05-26-2013, 05:12 PM
Yeah, that was why I added that. Trion does not care about the people currently playing. They are having a rough time selling Bits, and once you buy the game they already have your money.

I just hope to see a resume from someone that says Trion on it, so I can laugh as I give my disapproval. Shoddy coding will haunt a person forever. I am sure that those already let go are learning that. Project managers in charge of a debacle like this have it ever worse.

Holy crap have you ever missed the point. Let me spell it out for you:

Consequences for the customer when you screw up: Loss of millions of dollars.

Consequences for the customer when Trion screws up: mild irritation.

The stakes are way way higher. Of course you're being held to a higher standard.

Wraieth
05-26-2013, 05:12 PM
i have been thinking alot about this. I think it would do a world of good if they would open a public test realm.

And allow us to test the patches and supply them with bug reports and feedback. If they cant catch the bugs and glitches then they should allow us to. Atleast it would allow them to fi it before released to live servers.

And if they worried about people staying on test servers all the time make it simple. Allow a couple weeks for testing each patch then close server off till the next one.

Wraieth
05-26-2013, 05:18 PM
Holy crap have you ever missed the point. Let me spell it out for you:

Consequences for the customer when you screw up: Loss of millions of dollars.

Consequences for the customer when Trion screws up: mild irritation.

The stakes are way way higher. Of course you're being held to a higher standard.

this is whats wrong with people today. Everyone wants to just skate by with what ever they can. Instead of having alittle pride in thier work. If you going to do something do it right or dont bother.

And sure mistakes happen we all make them we are human. But if those mistakes are constant and not realy having any improvement. The n yea get rid of them and replace them with someone who will take pride.

Idk if its the generation orr just the world in general but dam people just dont have the grit in them they used to.

Slackaveli
05-26-2013, 05:19 PM
Idk about you guys, but I had no idea OP was Trion's employer; I mean, he must be, if he's the one who gets to decide what defines their job.

Sarcasm aside, I wonder if OP has ever had a job. Because if he has, it's inevitable that he's screwed up something at least once at any job he's done. I hope for his sake his employers haven't shared this "one strike and you're out" mentality that he does. People make mistakes; expecting them to be perfect is unrealistic. The only time I could ever see this attitude being acceptable is when you're talking about a doctor performing a surgery that he's done before but that could easily end a patient's life if done incorrectly. Expecting perfection out of the doctor in that situation is understandable; expecting perfection out of a business producing a video game is hardly on the same level, yet OP acts like it is.

Reminds me of this girl: http://www.wetpaint.com/moms/articles/2013-05-23-girl-expelled-school-explosion-full. A zero tolerance policy has good intentions, but what it'll end up doing is making anyone afraid to attempt anything for fear of bringing the wrath of Odin down upon them. Continue treating game companies like this, and we'll end up with nothing but CoD and other cookie-cutter games rather than something that tries something new at the risk of having bugs and unexpected issues and the all important nerd anger.

TL;DR--stop having unrealistic expectations, and stop making incorrect analogies.
save your breath, dumbarse

Sids
05-26-2013, 05:20 PM
This thread is now about ducks.

Anderson
05-26-2013, 05:26 PM
this is whats wrong with people today. Everyone wants to just skate by with what ever they can. Instead of having alittle pride in thier work. If you going to do something do it right or dont bother.

And sure mistakes happen we all make them we are human. But if those mistakes are constant and not realy having any improvement. The n yea get rid of them and replace them with someone who will take pride.

Idk if its the generation orr just the world in general but dam people just dont have the grit in them they used to.

This has nothing to do with generations, this isn't a new idea at all.

You're not going to hold the guy guarding the local shopping mall to the same standards as the Secret Service agent guarding the President. You're not going to hold the guy working at McDonald's to the same standards as the head chef in a five star restaurant, etc.

It's just completely unrealistic and you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

doggirl211
05-26-2013, 05:46 PM
This has nothing to do with generations, this isn't a new idea at all.

You're not going to hold the guy guarding the local shopping mall to the same standards as the Secret Service agent guarding the President. You're not going to hold the guy working at McDonald's to the same standards as the head chef in a five star restaurant, etc.

It's just completely unrealistic and you're setting yourself up for disappointment.


You're right, not the same standards.....but they've got to be held to SOME standards....

Anderson
05-26-2013, 05:53 PM
You're right, not the same standards.....but they've got to be held to SOME standards....

Well sure, if I paid $60 for a game that is completely unplayable, I'd be demanding my money back. But Defiance is very far from unplayable. I pop that sucker and get many hours of enjoyable gameplay. I'll encounter a bug every now and then but it's usually something I can work around or just isn't that big a deal. It bothers me, sure but it would be silly of me to get anywhere as near upset as say if the guy who posted a posts back screwed up and I lost millions of dollars.

ralisti
05-26-2013, 06:24 PM
This has nothing to do with generations, this isn't a new idea at all.

You're not going to hold the guy guarding the local shopping mall to the same standards as the Secret Service agent guarding the President. You're not going to hold the guy working at McDonald's to the same standards as the head chef in a five star restaurant, etc.

It's just completely unrealistic and you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

I am sorry, but it is YOU who are mistaken. In the IT world, your past performance haunts you the rest of your life. If my company was know for shoddy and half arsed programming, I would play heck getting another job.

How do I know, I made the mistake of getting involved with a start up company that basically turned into a below par sweat shop. I mean it was so bad those on Visas were leaving to return to their country of origin. When I left there and looked for a good job, I often had working there haunt me. I had to talk companies into testing me to prove that I was not part of the problem.

THAT is why you turn out a quality product, even if there is not money riding on it. Heck, doing an awesome job for free will move up the ranks when you look for a paid job more than an awesome paying job turning out polished turds.

I would think that someone with your 'lengthy' employment history would know that. Then again, you could have spent the last 20 years working as a burger flipper. I am not saying you have, but it would explain your mentality.

Anderson
05-26-2013, 06:36 PM
I am sorry, but it is YOU who are mistaken. In the IT world, your past performance haunts you the rest of your life. If my company was know for shoddy and half arsed programming, I would play heck getting another job.

How do I know, I made the mistake of getting involved with a start up company that basically turned into a below par sweat shop. I mean it was so bad those on Visas were leaving to return to their country of origin. When I left there and looked for a good job, I often had working there haunt me. I had to talk companies into testing me to prove that I was not part of the problem.

THAT is why you turn out a quality product, even if there is not money riding on it. Heck, doing an awesome job for free will move up the ranks when you look for a paid job more than an awesome paying job turning out polished turds.

I would think that someone with your 'lengthy' employment history would know that. Then again, you could have spent the last 20 years working as a burger flipper. I am not saying you have, but it would explain your mentality.

Yeah, this is what I'm hearing, "Wahh, it's no fair! How come when I **** up and cost a customer millions I'm in way more trouble than when Trion ****s up and a PvP map gets taken down."

ralisti
05-26-2013, 07:35 PM
Yeah, this is what I'm hearing, "Wahh, it's no fair! How come when I **** up and cost a customer millions I'm in way more trouble than when Trion ****s up and a PvP map gets taken down."

Trouble is all a matter of perspective. Sure, Trion can continue to polish the turd, and the people working there can continue to just rub away, putting in mediocre effort to crack out more issues then they fix. Eventually, the company will fail or the employees will be downsized, and that polished turd will look awesome on a resume.

You're right. You do not hear that. What you hear is massive layoffs at Trion. Layoffs where the people who are now looking for jobs are going to have employers looking at the last place of employment, and see that they were involved on a project where weeks after release, the program is still dealing with day one bugs.

Not to mention the low ratings, and fact that they have yet to have a competent patch release which did not just massively exceed downtime, failed to fix what was meant to be fixed, and breaking even more stuff.

Do you SERIOUSLY think that other, more competent, employers are not going to look at that? I am really curious what industry that you are in when you think it is okay to apply minimal effort for even more minimal results. I have a feeling it is either a union job or you work for the government.

Oh, and while not costing the customers millions in downtime, the company is establishing a reputation of turning out shoddy programming. Reputation means a lot, as can be seen by the declining sales, declining population, and the free weekend resulting in massive negative posts on Steam. Do you think gamers do not talk about games and companies. I know numerous people who will not buy any game some companies make because of their reputation of failure.

This debacle will affect future sales of not just Defiance, but all the games that come out of the company. The difference between the client I work for and Trion? My client has made the RIGHT decisions so that they can absorb a million dollar loss and continue forward. How did they do that? By not doing what Trion constantly does.

And with that, I am out. If you do not see reality by now, you will never see it.

EDIT
05-26-2013, 07:48 PM
Trouble is all a matter of perspective. Sure, Trion can continue to polish the turd, and the people working there can continue to just rub away, putting in mediocre effort to crack out more issues then they fix. Eventually, the company will fail or the employees will be downsized, and that polished turd will look awesome on a resume.

You're right. You do not hear that. What you hear is massive layoffs at Trion. Layoffs where the people who are now looking for jobs are going to have employers looking at the last place of employment, and see that they were involved on a project where weeks after release, the program is still dealing with day one bugs.

Not to mention the low ratings, and fact that they have yet to have a competent patch release which did not just massively exceed downtime, failed to fix what was meant to be fixed, and breaking even more stuff.

Do you SERIOUSLY think that other, more competent, employers are not going to look at that? I am really curious what industry that you are in when you think it is okay to apply minimal effort for even more minimal results. I have a feeling it is either a union job or you work for the government.

Oh, and while not costing the customers millions in downtime, the company is establishing a reputation of turning out shoddy programming. Reputation means a lot, as can be seen by the declining sales, declining population, and the free weekend resulting in massive negative posts on Steam. Do you think gamers do not talk about games and companies. I know numerous people who will not buy any game some companies make because of their reputation of failure.

This debacle will affect future sales of not just Defiance, but all the games that come out of the company. The difference between the client I work for and Trion? My client has made the RIGHT decisions so that they can absorb a million dollar loss and continue forward. How did they do that? By not doing what Trion constantly does.

And with that, I am out. If you do not see reality by now, you will never see it.

+1

and +2 to the OP

Though, you guys do realize that Trion has paid posters here on the forums to defend them. So whenever post something negative, it's their job to try and squash it. Though, the truth is... Trion LAYOFFS... that says a lot about the direction this game is going. :eek:

Sids
05-26-2013, 07:51 PM
Guys, you're really taking this off-topic.


This thread is now about ducks.

http://wtfaith.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/cute_kitten_duck.jpg?w=300&h=246

Wraieth
05-26-2013, 08:18 PM
Guys, you're really taking this off-topic.



http://wtfaith.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/cute_kitten_duck.jpg?w=300&h=246

To bad them ducks cant get in a row tho....lol

JagerMyk
05-26-2013, 08:57 PM
This has nothing to do with generations, this isn't a new idea at all.

You're not going to hold the guy guarding the local shopping mall to the same standards as the Secret Service agent guarding the President. You're not going to hold the guy working at McDonald's to the same standards as the head chef in a five star restaurant, etc.

It's just completely unrealistic and you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

but the fact of it is that no one is "safe in a JoB!" everyone can be replaced, no matter who they are. I am a fanboy, an I will stick to my machetes with this - but yes, there are alot of fkups, hickups, bugs, whatever you want to call it. Everyone has the choice to either stick it out til the end, or leave. Thats the bottom line, stop the bs an find your clan mates an kill something, there is way more real life death an drama than this little forum, just get the fk over yourselves an "Play the game when an however you can, an have as much fun as you possibly can, cause life is to fkn short to not enjoy anything/anyone you can have fun with" Peace an Happy Hunting Defiance Lifer ~mJ~

Gratty
05-26-2013, 09:15 PM
They are moving at a slow rate when it comes to addressing big issues. On top of that, they find a way to muck things up when they actually do address issues. If they do. Some things came with patch 1.020 that were supposed to come with patch 1.010 (if you read the original 1.010 patch notes)

I continue to play the game, but I cannot give the dev team too much credit. They have yet to prove that they are more than mediocre.

Wraieth
05-26-2013, 09:19 PM
They are moving at a slow rate when it comes to addressing big issues. On top of that, they find a way to muck things up when they actually do address issues. If they do. Some things came with patch 1.020 that were supposed to come with patch 1.010 (if you read the original 1.010 patch notes)

I continue to play the game, but I cannot give the dev team too much credit. They have yet to prove that they are more than mediocre.

I agree. And thats the bad part. Its not that they arnt trying .Its that they continue to fail while trying.

Gratty
05-26-2013, 09:25 PM
I agree. And thats the bad part. Its not that they arnt trying .Its that they continue to fail while trying.

They never fail to add items to the Defiance Store though c:

I grow tired of that...

Wraieth
05-26-2013, 09:26 PM
They never fail to add items to the Defiance Store though c:

I grow tired of that...

yea lol they got that down pat. now if they would just add something that isnt a reskin of existing items.

IAMREALITY
05-26-2013, 10:16 PM
What is the point you are attempting to discuss here because all I see is another rant ?

He makes many points in the rant, takes several specific positions. The point is to discuss the merits of those points, or whether or not they have merit. It's called a discussion, and frankly, his point was obvious. Or at least it should've been more than obvious enough, even for a dolt.

Sids
05-26-2013, 10:19 PM
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l162/murderdeathkilla/001751145_zps31f7bd31.jpg

Blade of Souls
05-26-2013, 10:28 PM
hehehe ducks

Archeus9
05-26-2013, 11:21 PM
Yeah, this is what I'm hearing, "Wahh, it's no fair! How come when I **** up and cost a customer millions I'm in way more trouble than when Trion ****s up and a PvP map gets taken down."

Hey bro, let me ask you a question have we been able to affect the show yet? No?! Wasn't that touted as a main feature of the game? HMMMMMMM.... right, you and other people need to stop freaking defending this company like they saved your family from dying, you owe them nothing.. they got your money and are still fumbling heavily with the game. Is it a good game? Not really.. its playable yes.. but they havent delivered on some promises...

Op is hitting the nail on the head. People really need to stop defending them. I mean ffs they are already doing free weekends on steam.. you know what that means right?

MacDeath
05-27-2013, 12:38 AM
I am employed by a company which has millions of people using the servers we are responsible for (major player in the Telecom industry). Do we make mistakes? Yes, they occasionally happen regardless of how much testing we do.

When they happen, everyone is on board looking for the problem, what is causing it, and what it will take to fix it. This is expected information is less than 30 minutes.

If the problem is one that can not be fixed easily, takes a long time to fix, or can not be diagnosed within 30 minutes, the servers are rolled back to the previous state before the updates. In this case, our company takes a hit and the client will want just a RCA (root cause analysis) but the problem to be resolved by at the latest the EOD (end of day) the next day.

If a team constantly makes these mistakes, then the team come under heavy inspection which usually results in management and/or members of the team being terminated.

The difference between my job and the job Trion is doing? I am held to almost immediate responsibility if I make a mistake. I can not quietly fix it, and hope the customers do not notice. I can not keep my clients in the dark about issues, and ignore their complaints when they notice.

Now tell me, why should Trion be given a free pass for constantly turning out patches with exceed greatly the projected down time, and usually introduce more issues then it fixes (if it actually fixes anything)? If my company can do it, Trion should be able to also. If not, then they need to have repercussions for failing to perform their job at a reasonable level.

EDIT: Just for note, the average lost income for 30 minutes of interrupted service for our client is > $1 million.
Telecom has been around for over one hundred years, and the quality was poor for most of that time. It's only recently that telecom companies have taken up the quality crusade. I'm glad it happened. Every ask WHY it happened? I think it's about competition. After telecom was deregulated in the US, customers had choices for providers. THAT'S when quality of service became important.

Gaming, as an industry hasn't been around for very long compared to telecom. Some companies are getting better but the industry as a whole hasn't made major strides in quality. Wonder why? IMO, game industry executives don't see the return on value from investing in the infrastructure to assure quality. I think many of them believe that 'good enough is good enough'. Gamers have a proven track record of buying poor quality games as long as they are fun to play. So, game companies focus on maximizing the fun and hope the quality is good enough.

What would it take for the game industry to become more quality focused? Discuss...

Gratty
05-27-2013, 12:41 AM
Telecom has been around for over one hundred years, and the quality was poor for most of that time. It's only recently that telecom companies have taken up the quality crusade. I'm glad it happened. Every ask WHY it happened? I think it's about competition. After telecom was deregulated in the US, customers had choices for providers. THAT'S when quality of service became important.

Gaming, as an industry hasn't been around for very long compared to telecom. Some companies are getting better but the industry as a whole hasn't made major strides in quality. Wonder why? IMO, game industry executives don't see the return on value from investing in the infrastructure to assure quality. I think many of them believe that 'good enough is good enough'. Gamers have a proven track record of buying poor quality games as long as they are fun to play. So, game companies focus on maximizing the fun and hope the quality is good enough.

What would it take for the game industry to become more quality focused? Discuss...

I feel that this is absolutely true. Unfortunate, but true.

MacDeath
05-27-2013, 12:47 AM
i have been thinking alot about this. I think it would do a world of good if they would open a public test realm.

And allow us to test the patches and supply them with bug reports and feedback. If they cant catch the bugs and glitches then they should allow us to. Atleast it would allow them to fi it before released to live servers.

And if they worried about people staying on test servers all the time make it simple. Allow a couple weeks for testing each patch then close server off till the next one.
I agree that a Public Test Server can help improve the quality of the Live game. BUT... That will only work IF Trion is willing to invest time and money in improving the quality of the game. We don't know if Defiance currently meets or exceeds the quality criteria that Trion has set. We, the players, don't even know IF Trion has a quality criteria for Defiance. See my threads:
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?76453-Thoughts-on-QA-Quality-Assurance-as-a-Career-Gamasutra.com
http://forums.defiance.com/showthread.php?64068-The-Thread-I-mos-want-to-see...-Welcome-to-the-Defiance-Public-Test-Shard!

Darkane
05-27-2013, 12:53 AM
By the painful truth, you mean just another opinion?

Wraieth
05-27-2013, 09:43 AM
By the painful truth, you mean just another opinion?

As i statedin my o.p it was truth as i see it. and if others dont see it that way more power to them.

Dracian
05-27-2013, 10:03 AM
... That OP can't write a full title.

Wraieth
05-27-2013, 10:05 AM
... That OP can't write a full title.

it was as full as i wanted.

baelrusk
05-27-2013, 10:11 AM
Telecom has been around for over one hundred years, and the quality was poor for most of that time. It's only recently that telecom companies have taken up the quality crusade. I'm glad it happened. Every ask WHY it happened? I think it's about competition. After telecom was deregulated in the US, customers had choices for providers. THAT'S when quality of service became important.

Gaming, as an industry hasn't been around for very long compared to telecom. Some companies are getting better but the industry as a whole hasn't made major strides in quality. Wonder why? IMO, game industry executives don't see the return on value from investing in the infrastructure to assure quality. I think many of them believe that 'good enough is good enough'. Gamers have a proven track record of buying poor quality games as long as they are fun to play. So, game companies focus on maximizing the fun and hope the quality is good enough.

What would it take for the game industry to become more quality focused? Discuss...

I agree very much. A high percentage of gamers just "let it slide" too much. This provides no reason for companies to spend extra resources/funds. In short.......the company is shown no reason to improve.
It's also why we see many problems repeated by different companies over and over.

Elric1
05-27-2013, 10:45 AM
my point is simple. It dosnt matter if its code work . electrical, plumbing or pumping freaking gas at the quicky mart. If you have a job do it right or get someone who can.

The gameing industry should be no different.

Yeah which means MMos would be none existence and we all still be playing 'safe' coded games like fighters and fps and overhead adventure games because they don't require as much effort. I wish people get a grasp on how little they actually know before posting and making people laugh at them. Cliff notes. Compared to the last group working on Defiance these people are masters at their craft.

Rawrlok
05-27-2013, 10:48 AM
You sir hit the nail bang on the head the devs on the team are not doing there job.
My thoughts is they have give up with this game as it is not profitable for them due to poor sales across all platforms. Player numbers are falling everyday if you don't believe me go to mount tam have a look how many new players there is ?? Add to that players giving up

I am one of those players about to give up. I am sitting here right now thinking about going to trade this game in for $22 at GameStop. Between all the bugs, crashes, and zero support for the game. It has really made playing the game a pain. I played it like crazy during the "contest" and have not seen one thing mentioning it since it ended. CS tickets are extremely backed up and I never received a response from my weapon levels being all stuck at level 4 for like a week. Then a patch came out and it finally started giving me weapon experience again. I've had to do multiple quests over and over in the downtown San Francisco area just to get them to properly update and complete. I am trying to justify keeping the game because I like the story-line and the show as well. However I feel like Trion has dropped the ball and are scrambling to regain possession and its not going to happen.

Wraieth
05-27-2013, 10:58 AM
Yeah which means MMos would be none existence and we all still be playing 'safe' coded games like fighters and fps and overhead adventure games because they don't require as much effort. I wish people get a grasp on how little they actually know before posting and making people laugh at them. Cliff notes. Compared to the last group working on Defiance these people are masters at their craft.

lol its the same group thiers just less of them atm

Assasino
05-27-2013, 11:08 AM
You sir hit the nail bang on the head the devs on the team are not doing there job.
My thoughts is they have give up with this game as it is not profitable for them due to poor sales across all platforms. Player numbers are falling everyday if you don't believe me go to mount tam have a look how many new players there is ?? Add to that players giving up

Well less players around Mount Tam because most of the players are long pass that in the story and have moved on.
As for poor sales it would possibly be because word of mouth from players who have told their friends to wait to get Defiance?
or just to avoid all together perhaps because of all the bugs