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View Full Version : Anyone else tired of PvE enemies aimbotting?



Jamesericmason
06-14-2013, 11:52 PM
I'm getting sick of it. If i'm out in an area with no cover, no matter how fast I run or how much I zig zag I can't not get shot before I can get into cover. If the enemies were sprinting and moving like I was it would be impossible for any human to actually land a shot on them.
Not only that but enemies seem to have no accuracy or damage drop off the farther you are away from them.
These guys go full auto for a straight minute and suffer no recoil or bloom.
It's really uninteresting that my only option against the enemy is to exploit their stupid A.I. by kitting them around a column or something.

GiantInMaine
06-15-2013, 12:13 AM
Considering the game is easy as hell and you don't lose anything if you die I don't really see it as much of a problem. Report them for hacking.

Escyos
06-15-2013, 12:26 AM
Considering the game is easy as hell and you don't lose anything if you die I don't really see it as much of a problem. Report them for hacking.

Report enemies for hacking? Shall we arrange your room at the sanitarium while you do that. :D

GiantInMaine
06-15-2013, 12:30 AM
Nah they got it reserved already I get preferential treatment.

Classymadman
06-15-2013, 12:31 AM
im tired of this game in general. been three weeks since I played last, now I sell this piece of **** on craigslist to a sucker asap... bad bad bad game

Xanirus
06-15-2013, 12:39 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but....

AI = bot
Aimbotting = Computer assisted aiming
Computer = bot

or at least somewhere along these lines?

I don't think ever seen any game where enemies DON'T aimbot. Without intelligent AI, it's got nothing else. I've never seen any AI actually "miss" a player, at least with hitscan bullets. Actual projectiles is another story. I'm not going to claim I know programming, but have you ever seen COD bot killcams, or viewed the camera of an Unreal Tournament bot? Play them at a lower difficulty, then play them at high. You'll see that their aim is the exact same, (nearly perfect) it's only their speed and reaction timing that makes any difference. I'm not saying that it isn't possible to make them randomly miss, but perfect aim from bots like this isn't uncommon in games.

Jamesericmason
06-15-2013, 12:43 AM
And I'm saying that it's bad/lazy game design. Especially when you consider how much of this game is just wide open expanses with nowhere you can break line of sight.
They need to add a delay/lag to the enemy target tracking, that slowly leads to them actually catching up to their targets as long as they run in the same direction.
If you ever played an air combat simulator you would know you have to lead your aim at your target to actually hit them, the A.I. in this game needs to do something similar so It's actually possible to evade shots by moving erratically, and thus hard to track.
The enemies also need to suffer from recoil as well.

twitch reflex
06-15-2013, 12:55 AM
I'm more tired about people complaining about enemies shooting you when its already an easy game.

Daergar
06-15-2013, 12:56 AM
Uhm, as a quick test, stand in front of a regular raider mob and see if he hits you with every bullet. It might differ between the mob classes but I can certainly evade and avoid incoming bullets by moving and rolling, and they definately do not hit with every single round they fire.

I think you're doing something wrong and not understanding what you're seeing on your screen mate. ;)

Haffoc
06-15-2013, 01:17 AM
Uhm, as a quick test, stand in front of a regular raider mob and see if he hits you with every bullet. It might differ between the mob classes but I can certainly evade and avoid incoming bullets by moving and rolling, and they definately do not hit with every single round they fire.

I think you're doing something wrong and not understanding what you're seeing on your screen mate. ;)

The only mobs that behave the way the OP states are Dark Matter and the flying scrappers when they transform to ground mode.

Dark Matter are supposed to be hard, with advanced weapons and probably computer assist through their armour. The second, well they're machines guided by an arkbrain, so yet again they have assisted aiming.

Both can be beaten with tactics, standing in one spot having a fire fight with these guys isn't the best approach.

Oh and the 99 blacklung can be a little difficult if you're not paying attention

Jamesericmason
06-15-2013, 01:32 AM
I don't stand in one spot and fight the enemy, stop being dumb.
I am mostly talking about Dark Matter, but I'm usually (starting off anyways) engaging them from far off with a sniper rifle. But then a bulwark comes charging at me and I usually have to move from my spot, then I'm out in the open and there usually isn't anywhere for me to retake cover, not a with the bulwark still chasing me and going full auto.
Enemies also have a tendency to shoot through walls if either they or you are behind cover.

Haffoc
06-15-2013, 01:58 AM
Until the Volge hit Dark Matter are meant to be difficult enemies, they have advanced armour, shields and weapons. IIRC they were an elite unit.

Bulwarks are easy, hit them in the right place and they shutdown for a while.

crasher
06-15-2013, 02:08 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but....

AI = bot
Aimbotting = Computer assisted aiming
Computer = bot

or at least somewhere along these lines?

I don't think ever seen any game where enemies DON'T aimbot. Without intelligent AI, it's got nothing else. I've never seen any AI actually "miss" a player, at least with hitscan bullets. Actual projectiles is another story. I'm not going to claim I know programming, but have you ever seen COD bot killcams, or viewed the camera of an Unreal Tournament bot? Play them at a lower difficulty, then play them at high. You'll see that their aim is the exact same, (nearly perfect) it's only their speed and reaction timing that makes any difference. I'm not saying that it isn't possible to make them randomly miss, but perfect aim from bots like this isn't uncommon in games.
It would be perfectly acceptible for the program to be written such that a RNG could be used for the AI to score a hit, Vs probability = '1' every time as it is now.
Just write the AI scoring so that they don't hit all the time.

The game being 'easy' or not is irrelevant if the satisfaction of successfully eluding an enemy isn't ever there, but knowing he's going to hit you no matter what you do or try grows wearisome. At that point it's no longer a game, it's a conclusion. Games have chance and guile. AI that always hits you isn't entertaining.

Dave Blackwell
06-15-2013, 03:32 AM
And I'm saying that it's bad/lazy game design. Especially when you consider how much of this game is just wide open expanses with nowhere you can break line of sight.
They need to add a delay/lag to the enemy target tracking, that slowly leads to them actually catching up to their targets as long as they run in the same direction.
If you ever played an air combat simulator you would know you have to lead your aim at your target to actually hit them, the A.I. in this game needs to do something similar so It's actually possible to evade shots by moving erratically, and thus hard to track.
The enemies also need to suffer from recoil as well.

Can I just point out the major difference in your example for acceptable AI behaviour and what this game actually is?

For one you're referencing a combat simulator. They're designed, to attempt, to replicate whatever settings they are designed for as realistically as possible. Being an air combat simulator, they're going to focus on all the crooks and crevices of air combat. Defiance is in no way a simulator and therefore shouldn't require any where close to the standards of a simulator.

But am I tired of the AI in this game? No where close to even beginning to become tired of them. Why? Because they're extremely easy as it stands.


I don't stand in one spot and fight the enemy, stop being dumb.
I am mostly talking about Dark Matter, but I'm usually (starting off anyways) engaging them from far off with a sniper rifle. But then a bulwark comes charging at me and I usually have to move from my spot, then I'm out in the open and there usually isn't anywhere for me to retake cover, not a with the bulwark still chasing me and going full auto.

Well, there's your problem right there. I'm going on this assumption based off what you've said in this comment by the way. If a bulwark is giving you grief and you're using a sniper that's going to hold you back a substantial bit in regards to killing them. From my own personal experience with them, the only way to take them out is never standing still - like with any other relatively competent AI.

alred
06-15-2013, 03:50 AM
I don't stand in one spot and fight the enemy, stop being dumb.
I am mostly talking about Dark Matter, but I'm usually (starting off anyways) engaging them from far off with a sniper rifle. But then a bulwark comes charging at me and I usually have to move from my spot, then I'm out in the open and there usually isn't anywhere for me to retake cover, not a with the bulwark still chasing me and going full auto.
Enemies also have a tendency to shoot through walls if either they or you are behind cover.

The type of weapon also helps. I've found a high rate of fire helps "burn" down Dark matter. So a full auto AR or SMG is good to have. Or if doing the "run and shoot" at Dark Matter, I use an Immunnizer. It does low damage at first, but the bugs attack multiple targets.
Bulwark, again, a high rate of fire, or distance weapon that you can run and shoot. Hit them in the "orange" panels on either side of their head. Also a flash grenade, will "stun" them. A Good nano effect to have one the weapon your using is the stun effect, or syphon.
I use the "Nolan" AR, with no nano effects, or a mazu blast rifle with syphon.

stray152
06-15-2013, 04:08 AM
In my opinion the 'Aim Botting' only becomes a problem indoors. You cant take cover... Just had this exact experience/complaint on the Piper episode missions. The E-Rep soldiers were literally shooting backwards while running to cover. Had me endlessly pieing corners.

It is also aggravating to have Raiders tagging me from distance, when it is challenging for me to do the same with my AR/sniper that should be much better equipped for long distance hilltop snuff fest.

Then again maybe its just because they make it look so easy, haha, barely aiming with one hand.

Ghost MLP
06-15-2013, 04:54 AM
I'm more tired about people complaining about enemies shooting you when its already an easy game.

My complaint isn't with an enemy shooting me, it's from 20+ enemies spawning out of nowhere.

True if it's me running off half cocked into what I don't yet know is a furnace is my fault, but when I'm trying to get back out of the furnace by zig-zagging, rolling and everything else I can think of it's for nothing. Rolling does shyte in this game, they still hit me even though it's supposed to reduce damage (I think there's even a tutorial from EGO about it). And even if I know 20+ enemies are there, I still have to kill them to complete whatever the objective they're tied to is, which means I still have to constantly expose myself with no hope that cover or movement will help mitigate a single point of damage.

100% perfect vision and accuracy from computer opponents is why I don't normally play FPSs or TPSs. It shouldn't difficult to add a miss chance algorithm, even if it is static across the board (i.e. not adjusting for terrain that might block vision, movement, and recoil but by taking the average as an all the time penalty, for example), and it shouldn't be difficult to make them miss a LOT more when you're rolling when the game tells you they should miss a LOT more when you're rolling.

stray152
06-15-2013, 05:00 AM
My complaint isn't with an enemy shooting me, it's from 20+ enemies spawning out of nowhere.


This spawning factor alone turns every encounter into Close Quarters Battle, and spamming SMG's... And endless waves of enemies... If they could miss tactics might have some actual relevance.

The whole 'feeding tube' style of spawning is just terrible though. It makes no sense. Either spaz a squad of guys all out at once and let me deal with it, or just have as many guys are in the room.

DjSeraphim
06-15-2013, 05:17 AM
im tired of this game in general. been three weeks since I played last, now I sell this piece of **** on craigslist to a sucker asap... bad bad bad game

Good please F**KOFF and do that right now u total ret@rd

Billy Guile
06-15-2013, 05:37 AM
the system seems to respond better if you roll to the side rather than zig zag. don't know if that was the programmers intention, but it works.

Covington
06-15-2013, 05:38 AM
the system seems to respond better if you roll to the side rather than zig zag. don't know if that was the programmers intention, but it works.

Yep... but am I the only dork that quotes Young Frankenstien when she does it?

"Roll roll roll in ze hay.."

Yes?

Darn...

Ghost MLP
06-15-2013, 05:43 AM
This spawning factor alone turns every encounter into Close Quarters Battle, and spamming SMG's... And endless waves of enemies... If they could miss tactics might have some actual relevance.

The whole 'feeding tube' style of spawning is just terrible though. It makes no sense. Either spaz a squad of guys all out at once and let me deal with it, or just have as many guys are in the room.

The furnace I mentioned before isn't new mobs that spawn but ones that are already there that I don't know are there because they don't show up as red dots on radar until you aggro them.

I don't have a problem with new mobs spawning mid fight, I mean, they should be able to call for reinforcements when a super soldier (i.e. player character) walks through the area, seems only fair to them since they die so easily (on their own, at least). Only problem I have with a 20+ man reinforcement squad is them having 100% aim and tactics meaning squat because they have homing radar and know where you are 99% of the time (the 1% of the time they don't know where you are being that 1% of the time you are cloaked).going behind total concealment should make them "forget" where I am and investigate where I was until I'm in their line of sight again (think Metal Gear Solid's vision cone). Might make tactics worthwhile when I can peek out behind them, pop off a few rounds, and run behind cover again. THAT would be fun.

On a side note, just finished a Dark Matter emergency near Bug 'N' Chug and I was far enough away that some shots actually did miss me (though feels like very few of them, hard to tell). I also hid behind a tree and was able to peek out just enough to sniper headshots without getting completely shot to hell and back, so cover does offer some protection, if only at a distance (don't konw how far away I was, maybe 20 meters?).

Close quarter really needs to be fine tuned and even at a distance some hit/miss adjustment needs to be made. Shock troops are deployed en masse for a reason, because they usually suck, so they really shouldn't be hitting you 100% of the time (Dark Matter being a possible exception since they are trained soldiers, but raiders and 99ers aren't).

Also, giving elite units a ridiculous HP and damage boost doesn't make them elite, it just makes them tedious and annoying.

stray152
06-15-2013, 05:51 AM
A lot of hypotheticals in your argument.



Also, giving elite units a ridiculous HP and damage boost doesn't make them elite, it just makes them tedious and annoying.
But yeah that.

Also counter intuitive when considering the 'skill over level' mantra that I enjoy in the rest of the game. Bullets are bullets and people are people. Guns should have more recoil in this and do more damage, in my opinion. Increase difficulty of use... and you increase the feeling that youre shooting a life taking weapon, instead of a squirt gun.

This would alleviate your concerns about this I believe

Ghost MLP
06-15-2013, 06:19 AM
I understand it's difficult to make a unit "elite" by other than giving it an HP and damage boost because computers aren't capable of the fuzzy logic required for tactics. Despite that, I find tankers and monarchs and even hellbug warriors (the non-elite versions of these mobs) to be the most "elite" units in the game (also dark matter monitors with that shield they make). Even if the tanker's movement and the monitor's shield summon is random, it's enough to render most tactics useless when fighting solo since it can be hard to keep a bead on the piston when the tanker's moving or get behind the him to hit the pistons easily or get behind the monitor to unload into the back of his head (when there's other enemies around).

For hellbug monarchs and warriors, their hide is so thick that it is a waste of time and bullets to try and shoot their shell, so have to have the patience to wait for them to expose their weak spots (belly and butt for monarchs and mouth only for warriors since their butt isn't that much of a damage boost).

Now a ridiculous boost to HP at ark falls is understandable since 40+ people shooting at the same mob should still be able to take them down relatively quickly. :p

I can understand elites dealing more damage because they could be hitting crit spots where non-elites aren't.
I can understand elites having stronger armor/shields (i.e. more HP).
I would also expect an elite to hit more often than a non-elite, which is hard to contrast when the non-elites are also hitting 100% of the time.

But this only makes them a "challenge" when tactics can be employed, even if it is simple running and gunning and shooting from round cover. But when the game is employing the "if you can shoot them they're already shooting you" method of cover (that is you have total cover or no cover at all and movement means bupkiss), it just makes them a sponge and a waste of time and ammo.

Billy Guile
06-15-2013, 06:24 AM
But this only makes them a "challenge" when tactics can be employed, even if it is simple running and gunning and shooting from round cover. But when the game is employing the "if you can shoot them they're already shooting you" method of cover (that is you have total cover or no cover at all and movement means bupkiss), it just makes them a sponge and a waste of time and ammo.


i naturally take cover to shoot just because i do it as a daily habit in games and real life job stuff. i totally hear you about all of this. bugs me sometimes when anything other than infected make a direct line run to you. some of them will actually take cover themselves, which is pretty sweet, because that means i get to maneuver on them. the wicked accuracy on their grenade tosses drives me insane. also, their weird ability to know when you're running around a building, and then change directions. come onnnn maannnnn THERE IS NO WAY YOU KNOW.

would also love the ability to lean around corners, but i dont know if they can implement that into the control scheme

Haffoc
06-15-2013, 06:35 AM
For hellbug monarchs and warriors, their hide is so thick that it is a waste of time and bullets to try and shoot their shell, so have to have the patience to wait for them to expose their weak spots (belly and butt for monarchs and mouth only for warriors since their butt isn't that much of a damage boost).



Best tactic I've found with Monarchs is to wait for them to rear-up to launch their special and then let loose into their bellies. This stops the attack and they hunch up opening the soft spot on their backsides.

stray152
06-15-2013, 06:36 AM
would also love the ability to lean around corners, but i dont know if they can implement that into the control scheme

Not with out getting stuck to every flat surface you rub up against a la gears of effect 3.

Monarchs dont always do that though. What is it a damage threshold you have to hit?

Ensu
06-15-2013, 06:38 AM
Ha! This is why I like cloak. Particularly against Dark Matter. It actually lets you be a little tactical and change up the battlefield.

I imagine decoy gameplay is kinda similar, but I've not tried it.

I don't mind that they have aimbots. I prefer them to be accurate than to be storm troopers. More challenge is fun.

--

The best way to deal with Monarchs and Warriors (or rather, the fastest) is to use cluster weapons. They do full damage through the armour. This means Swarm Cannon, Ground Pounder, Cluster grenades and Mass Cannon.

Envy
06-15-2013, 07:55 AM
And I'm saying that it's bad/lazy game design. Especially when you consider how much of this game is just wide open expanses with nowhere you can break line of sight.
They need to add a delay/lag to the enemy target tracking, that slowly leads to them actually catching up to their targets as long as they run in the same direction.
If you ever played an air combat simulator you would know you have to lead your aim at your target to actually hit them, the A.I. in this game needs to do something similar so It's actually possible to evade shots by moving erratically, and thus hard to track.
The enemies also need to suffer from recoil as well.


That's the problem, They didn't make is with a time delay, So they are shooting where you are going to be before you are even there on your screen.. Every game has lag, These mobs just can read before it..

But i do have to agree with a few above, Horribly lazy/piss poor design.

Ghost MLP
06-15-2013, 08:51 AM
also, their weird ability to know when you're running around a building, and then change directions. come onnnn maannnnn THERE IS NO WAY YOU KNOW.

Unless it's Dark Matter with an EGO radar like we have, those are the only one's I can see actually having the radar-like ability to know where you are, because they do.


Best tactic I've found with Monarchs is to wait for them to rear-up to launch their special and then let loose into their bellies. This stops the attack and they hunch up opening the soft spot on their backsides.

That, or when they do that rolling somersault move, or when they get their claw stuck in the ground.