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View Full Version : Not as good as I expected!



Spirit Tattertwist
06-24-2013, 06:13 AM
Having just started playing this game I was struck by the fact that it is extremely difficult to play. Not that the game is hard but that the actual game mechanics are just badly thought out. They are confusing and handle like a Sherman Tank. I thought I was buying a PC game. I got a medley of Xbox controls reissued for PC.

I went from GW1 to WoW to Rift seamlessly. The switch from WoW to Rift was amazing within an hour I was out there playing without even thinking about the controls. What I didn't already know I picked up pretty soon, it was one of the simplest but maybe the most impressive things about Rift.

Now, Defiance. Throw out the book, start over and reinvent the wheel. I've never seen controls more confusing. Why driving takes two buttons is beyond me? Hey we can do it extremely well with one but let's use two. Oh lets shoot with our mouse and move with our left hand. My favorite is move your left hand from the left side of the keyboard to the right to press L, I, and M. I even went out and bought an Xbox controller which does make driving easier but still uses 2 buttons. But shooting and walking are harder on the controller and less accurate. Switching from the controller to the mouse to the keyboard has me wishing I was one of those aliens with perhaps an extra hand or two.

So after about 6 hours of playing, I'm driving around trying to learn the controls and killing the same mobs to practice game mechanics.

The sad part is I sort of like the game and it is interesting. But I don't know if I will ever wrap my hands around these controls. Usually by the time I find the correct button to push I've died. I'm not sure I need to add this much stress to my life!

Whippersnapper
06-24-2013, 07:12 AM
Controls can be remapped you know

sQuinty
06-24-2013, 07:21 AM
You went from MMO-RPG to MMO-RPG to MMO-RPG to MMO-TPS, and your complaining the controls are different on the last one?

I don't even play that many shooters, and the controls took about 5 minutes to get down.

Also as Whipper said, you can remap just about anything you want, though that won't change driving.

Malkosha
06-24-2013, 07:26 AM
This game was designed like a shooter ... not an EQ/WoW clone. Just like a shooter, you move forward, backward and side-to-side with WSAD. You turn by moving the mouse. The left mouse button fires and the right mouse button zooms. The scroll wheel lets you switch between your primary and secondary weapons. Also, the "f" key is the melee key and left-shift makes you run faster.

If all you've ever played were EQ clones like WoW/EQ/Rift etc and have never played a shooter then its very different. Shooters were out long before these other games were but they weren't in a persistent world. Instead, you moved from server to server map to map and your char never changed. In this game, they have combined the skill-set of the shooter with the persistence of a MMOPRPG. Defiance isn't the first game to do this ... there have been a couple ... but it's the first that I really liked.

To me, the one thing they did get right was the shooter part. Very fast, very fun and the mechanics are ... well ... shooter like.

If you practice with it, you will get it. This setup has been around long before MMORPG's were and the mechanics are time tested and work very well. Give it time and you will master it.

Daergar
06-24-2013, 08:08 AM
I can't help myself. Confusing controls? Uhm, they have been the same style since at least Q1 (iirc) and I believe they were mapped to the arrow keys by default. I don't remember when we all switched to wasd or esdf, but it was pretty early on.

Getting confused and complaining over the industry standard controls for shooters for the past decade or more says more about you than anything else, sorry mate. ;)

As for the L, I, M situation, same deal there. Most games come packed with the standard single letter key bound to an action that I end up re-mapping, unless they did like here; F1 and so on mirrors the actions you mention. Also, accessing the menu wheel from any screen makes navigating quite easy.

The loadout menu I have switched (unless it's default) to F, and is still my only real issue with the control scheme, ie the lack of being able to bind my loadouts to keys.

Tercept
06-24-2013, 08:26 AM
I can't help myself. Confusing controls? Uhm, they have been the same style since at least Q1 (iirc) and I believe they were mapped to the arrow keys by default. I don't remember when we all switched to wasd or esdf, but it was pretty early on.

Getting confused and complaining over the industry standard controls for shooters for the past decade or more says more about you than anything else, sorry mate. ;)

As for the L, I, M situation, same deal there. Most games come packed with the standard single letter key bound to an action that I end up re-mapping, unless they did like here; F1 and so on mirrors the actions you mention. Also, accessing the menu wheel from any screen makes navigating quite easy.

The loadout menu I have switched (unless it's default) to F, and is still my only real issue with the control scheme, ie the lack of being able to bind my loadouts to keys.

Alot of companies are putting in game mechanics that are for all gaming platforms pc to Xbox to playstation 3. I know of at least one game that in beta was going to have the hotkeys as one through plus/equal key. But instead went down to the first four hotkeys so they can eventually put it on the Xbox/PS3 systems. As far this fpsmmo goes its the typical fps to me with just a little twist of uniqueness to it. I think the retail box came with where the control keys are and you can remap in-game if you want to.

Chevota
06-24-2013, 08:47 AM
But shooting and walking are harder on the controller and less accurate. Switching from the controller to the mouse to the keyboard has me wishing I was one of those aliens with perhaps an extra hand or two.

ITS TOO HARD! does it not strike you odd that all the main Shooter's during MLG's shining times were all controller-based? Controllers arent too hard to use, PC are too EASY...

COD was always played on PS3, and Gears and Halo were obv played on 360's for MLG. it takes SKILL to use controllers. Not a whole lot, even at that... Less complaining, more practice.

Muffins
06-24-2013, 08:54 AM
You went from MMO-RPG to MMO-RPG to MMO-RPG to MMO-TPS, and your complaining the controls are different on the last one?

This is what made me kinda say 'what'... I used to play MMORPG's a lot, but after years of avoiding them I can't play those like I used to lol.
Same applies here!


COD was always played on PS3, and Gears and Halo were obv played on 360's for MLG. it takes SKILL to use controllers. Not a whole lot, even at that... Less complaining, more practice.

The bar between KB+M and Controller is different. It has been countlessly said and tested at events (and even those ones where they put best PC to best Console face to face); Keyboard and Mouse wins.

It takes skill to use a KB+M too... but also skill to use a controller... I guess it comes naturally to some people than others though. I can use a controller as an average person but I can't shoot for squat in shooter games with a joystick... Now with a KB+M, I can snap and shoot pretty well.

Soren
06-24-2013, 09:05 AM
Uh... Defiance isn't an MMORPG like GW1, WoW, and RIFT are. It's an MMOTPS (TPS = Third Person Shooter). It's more of a open world shooter first, MMO second sort of game. As such, it controls like a typical shooter would.

I can see how you'd be thrown off if you've never played a shooter game (third person or first person) in the past ten years or so, but you really can't blame the game for following standard Shooter controls just because you thought this would play similar to an MMORPG.


Howeeeeever...

The way I play is (note: I am right handed so if you're left you may want to remap keys; also depending on your keyboard/hand size this may not work very well for you) I keep my left hand on the left side of my keyboard. My pinky finger is situated on the Shift key (to hold down for running + boosting when driving vehicles), my ring finger is on the A key (for moving left), my middle on the W key (moving forward), my index finger is on the D key (for moving right), and my thumb is on the spacebar (for jumping). Then my right hand is on the mouse where the left mouse button shoots, the scroll wheel lets me cycle between weapons, and the right mouse button zooms in for aiming better shots up. And obviously the mouse movement controls the camera and such.

Anyway, keeping your left hand (assuming you're right-handed) around the WASD area is important because from there you should be able to reach the other important keys - Shift for running, C for crouching, G for grenades, F for melee, E for interacting with NPCs/objects (like ammo supplies), Alt for rolling (Alt + W/A/S/D will have you roll in whichever direction), 1 for your EGO skill, V to call your vehicle up, and of course you can't forget R for reloading.

As for the menu issues, you can just use the Escape key to access the menu if you don't like moving your hand over to L/K/I/M over for a brief moment to access those menus. When you get comfortable keeping your left hand around the WASD area it should eventually become second nature to quickly move your hand over. Plus this game was designed with console controls in mind, so typically you shouldn't worry about needing to access menus while in-combat (unless you're quickly trying to switch load-outs) .

Overall though the biggest advice I can really give with this is that practice makes perfect. You should find a style that's comfortable to you for reaching all the essential commands (with keyboard/mouse or controller, whichever works), and if you go with the keyboard/mouse you'll basically need to make sure your non-mouse hand is in a position to where it can access the commands essential to combat (the list I gave in that paragraph centered around WASD). It'll also take some time to learn where your fingers can comfortably move without straying from WASD too much, especially when you're in combat (like my index finger is typically the one moving to C/V/F/G/E/R, whereas my ring finger will go up to 1 and then I can slide my thumb over to alt if I have to roll).

Or possibly it might be better to start off playing another shooter to get more familiar with the controls. There's plenty of F2P options out there like Team Fortress 2 and Warframe.

Tyger
06-24-2013, 09:39 AM
Having just started playing this game I was struck by the fact that it is extremely difficult to play. Not that the game is hard but that the actual game mechanics are just badly thought out. They are confusing and handle like a Sherman Tank. I thought I was buying a PC game. I got a medley of Xbox controls reissued for PC.

I went from GW1 to WoW to Rift seamlessly. The switch from WoW to Rift was amazing within an hour I was out there playing without even thinking about the controls. What I didn't already know I picked up pretty soon, it was one of the simplest but maybe the most impressive things about Rift.

Now, Defiance. Throw out the book, start over and reinvent the wheel. I've never seen controls more confusing. Why driving takes two buttons is beyond me? Hey we can do it extremely well with one but let's use two. Oh lets shoot with our mouse and move with our left hand. My favorite is move your left hand from the left side of the keyboard to the right to press L, I, and M. I even went out and bought an Xbox controller which does make driving easier but still uses 2 buttons. But shooting and walking are harder on the controller and less accurate. Switching from the controller to the mouse to the keyboard has me wishing I was one of those aliens with perhaps an extra hand or two.

So after about 6 hours of playing, I'm driving around trying to learn the controls and killing the same mobs to practice game mechanics.

The sad part is I sort of like the game and it is interesting. But I don't know if I will ever wrap my hands around these controls. Usually by the time I find the correct button to push I've died. I'm not sure I need to add this much stress to my life!


Yea, cuz WASD for movement and Rclick aim/Lclick Shoot is real tough when you toss in Space Bar to jump >.>....

Spirit Tattertwist
06-24-2013, 02:34 PM
Having gone through not one but two carpal tunnel surgeries what I do with my hands and fingers and wrists is kind of important to me. It's kind of important to the game controller industry too or they would not put disclaimers in the instruction books. I paid money for a game, I have an opinion, I have the right to state it and be heard, if you don't agree fine but do you really need to be rude about it.

I'll learn to adjust the controls and got some nice advice here from a few players who I would like to thank.

Sorry, but my learning curve may be behind the long time Xboxer as I only ever did a PC. However, my gaming experience goes back to Pong.

But I stand by my review of the controls as unruly and difficult to use. Practice will help and I will get used to them. But the object is to play the game not practice the controls which will get boring pretty fast.

Things I would like to change. Driving and walking should work the same and from WASD is fine. Instead of needing to push a second button to turn I would have made the second button speed. That way once you can walk or run you can drive too. Pretty simple actually and works on built up skills you have already slightly mastered.

Diablo worked pretty well with the shoot being the mouse. In this game though if your instinct is to use your mouse to move you shoot all the time and are constantly running out of ammo. Which will improve with time and practice too.

Maybe an optional starting area could be added where new players who need help with controls could go to learn. Somewhere low level basics could be addressed first. Where they could play and get the feel of the game with out the stress of dealing with other players killing everything for them and getting overwhelmed by mobs constantly while they are just trying to turn right or get the ammo. A slower kinder intro that was completely optional.

Perhaps a better understanding of the level of gameplay would have helped the designers. I realize I'm new to this type of shooter but without new players there will be no new games. I think the designers should have taught you the game better. Should have made the controls leveled so as you mastered one level you could build on it to master the next level. As it is now your shoved out there without a life raft. The beginning area was so confusing for me that it was lost. It assumed I had skills from other places that just did not exist. It showed me how to do things on level 6 when I needed level 1 instruction. This game throws a lot at you in a very short time. I'm not stupid or inexperienced but my overload switch has popped.

Natjur
06-24-2013, 03:46 PM
Since the game is not cross platforms (MS did not want to play nice with others) they need to release a good PC based GUI.

The current one is useless on a PC. Which the GUI could be modded, that would make life so much easier with an XML controlled GUI

Tyger
06-25-2013, 02:39 PM
Having gone through not one but two carpal tunnel surgeries what I do with my hands and fingers and wrists is kind of important to me. It's kind of important to the game controller industry too or they would not put disclaimers in the instruction books. I paid money for a game, I have an opinion, I have the right to state it and be heard, if you don't agree fine but do you really need to be rude about it.

I'll learn to adjust the controls and got some nice advice here from a few players who I would like to thank.

Sorry, but my learning curve may be behind the long time Xboxer as I only ever did a PC. However, my gaming experience goes back to Pong.

But I stand by my review of the controls as unruly and difficult to use. Practice will help and I will get used to them. But the object is to play the game not practice the controls which will get boring pretty fast.

Things I would like to change. Driving and walking should work the same and from WASD is fine. Instead of needing to push a second button to turn I would have made the second button speed. That way once you can walk or run you can drive too. Pretty simple actually and works on built up skills you have already slightly mastered.

Diablo worked pretty well with the shoot being the mouse. In this game though if your instinct is to use your mouse to move you shoot all the time and are constantly running out of ammo. Which will improve with time and practice too.

Maybe an optional starting area could be added where new players who need help with controls could go to learn. Somewhere low level basics could be addressed first. Where they could play and get the feel of the game with out the stress of dealing with other players killing everything for them and getting overwhelmed by mobs constantly while they are just trying to turn right or get the ammo. A slower kinder intro that was completely optional.

Perhaps a better understanding of the level of gameplay would have helped the designers. I realize I'm new to this type of shooter but without new players there will be no new games. I think the designers should have taught you the game better. Should have made the controls leveled so as you mastered one level you could build on it to master the next level. As it is now your shoved out there without a life raft. The beginning area was so confusing for me that it was lost. It assumed I had skills from other places that just did not exist. It showed me how to do things on level 6 when I needed level 1 instruction. This game throws a lot at you in a very short time. I'm not stupid or inexperienced but my overload switch has popped.

.... If you're that bad off with carpal tunnel I suggest staying away from activities that would cause further issues in said department. Or are you the type of person that finds out your an epileptic and then immediately looks to work for the fireworks crew in Disney?

Cavadus
06-25-2013, 02:43 PM
Wow. OP, do you know what shooters are?

Malkosha
06-25-2013, 03:12 PM
Things I would like to change. Driving and walking should work the same and from WASD is fine. Instead of needing to push a second button to turn I would have made the second button speed. That way once you can walk or run you can drive too. Pretty simple actually and works on built up skills you have already slightly mastered.



This I can agree with 100%. You should be able to control your vehicle just like you control your char. Steer with the mouse.

Then again ... now that I think about it. you wouldn't be able to drive and look in a different direction at the same time.

hmmm .... let me rethink this one