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Yeah... I although as my ex, who was my bf at the time said too. They wouldn't have found that other someone because they were still using outdated programming and design techniques. And no one, really liked the person that was my boss's boss boss. Oh well... Although, maybe they would have still found someone because their always people willing to do something for someone no matter what it is. *sighs*Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguinesun
Here, here! Yeah, I doubt anyone who works for game companies would post something like that. If the person really worked for Bioware and talked such garbage, the chance he gets another job at a developer is very slim. No one will hire someone to talks and ignores the NDA he signed before being hired.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyako
I would love to tell you what I saw at TRION...but I can't. And I didn't work for them...I only tested their game for free. Well, they did provide lunch & snacks/soda/coffee! -)
TQQdles
While I worked making Pacman in the 1980s, we didnt have forums or internet. We made a game everyone was happy with. We didnt need people telling us what to do. We used common sense to make people happy. Since I am now retired and living off my Pacman millions in my Pacman mansion, I dont feel the need to have to help people make a good game.
Its pretty obvious that if this game had better, more unique loot, and more endgame, it would be an epic game.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
He's trying to get people to understand how developers feel while also encouraging people to make a better game based on what you don't like. As dan said the issue with development is they don't have enough common sense to say "alright in a mmo you must have pve and pvp so you must separate the two or we'll have a major issue". This is going to be the biggest pain for any dev because YOU have decide whats fair initially and look at gathered data to determine what's fair but it's a lot better than putting bandaids that break and open wounds once again after they fall off.
No offense to anyone, but telling people how the developers and designers felt in game construction or how the developers at TRION are probably feeling too, isn't something you can really say if you ever worked in such a field. You tell people name of game, name of company, and the details of how they felt, then you are opening yourself up for lawsuits and potential prison time. The policy that is lifetime binding (Non-Disclosure Agreement) states that they can often pursue you to the fullest extent of the law for damages, defaming comments, and more. I can't find the one's I've gotten copies of, but I know that if I told you the details about my actions as an assistant admin (even though I only held the title because I was a volunteer) and word got back to the companies I helped under that role, I'd be in some deep trouble with lawsuits and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by WarHoundZero
I wish I could describe in detail how I felt as an assistant admin, or even as a developer for some people's websites I've made. I can't, because NDA and privacy policies, among other reasons. It isn't that I wouldn't want to, but you just legally can't when you are in this line of work. Example, developers from Microsoft don't openly tell you all that such and such was done in Windows 7 because of this... and in Windows 8 because of this, now do they? NO! They can't talk bad against the company.
In a way, I actually think this was why I often take the defend TRION and Defiance role in conversations as those few times in the past I have experienced, came with similar issues that I'm sure they are facing and aren't mentioning to us players. The only thing that can give a person the real world experience like this and help them understand what developers and designers go through on games is to actually do it. I can tell you this, that until you seen the inside of game design, it isn't as cushy a job as you might think it is. The number of times I repeated the same 2 actions over and over to reproduce blah blah bugs, would drive anyone crazy, this I do on my own on my own codes outside of what I did for those companies. Imagine now how that would be to play the same level over and over, or to even equip the same weapon and unequip it, over and over... You think you know the feeling, but add in metrics and algorithm issues, and so forth... Well, it just all gets a bit tiring after a while, but this is the case with all programming and development work where you work with code.
For the original poster and basically all of us here, the best way to go about describing and helping people understand the perspective of developers and designers is to tell them things based on generic coding. No companies, no game titles, no avatar/character names, no user IDs, no private communications, no personal conversations, no nothing based on anything that would remotely void any privacy policies, NDAs or other company disclosure/intellectual property agreements. To not follow that "No" list is to open yourself up to being unprofessional, to open up yourself to legal issues, and more.
You can provide advice without telling people how to do such and such because you did such and such at such and such company for such and such game. In the end, it all boils down to following the legally binding contracts and intellectual property rights of the companies (note, companies plural) without crossing the line.
EDIT: For those that want the experience of developers, the easiest way is to go out there learn C++, Java, PHP, Perl, Python, and MySQL and then find an open source distribution of some type of software and help them fix their bugs. You'll gain a new appreciation for developers, software engineers, and software architects then. Also, if you survive C++ and become fluent in it, you might want to consider yourself in the wrong field of work unless you already were a developer/programmer before. C++ is the most used game development language out there for multi-platform style games, but C# can be used with XNA to create XBox 360 games. C# is easy, like falling off a bike, while C++ is like trying to get to get to the moon using nothing but your average eating utensil. I don't say this to scare people off from learning C++, but its not an easy language to start with and I would highly recommend starting with Visual Basic, C# or Java first, then trying C++ after a year or two experience with the others. It helps.
My feelings on the subject of what fans should or can do are reflected in months of posting about the debacle that was Mass Effect 3. Fans should have an interactive dialogue capability with devs (this should in fact occur throughout all consumer markets) but there are big problems-shareholders in companies and the impatience of fans. There's also the various factions that will just not talk to each other. People get into corners and won't have conversations anymore. We live in a Twitter world where everyone thinks if you can't say it in some limited words, it's not worth saying and yet it's so easy to misunderstand what someone says using so few words. So, what people do is they believe they know what side someone is on and they choose ignore.
I've seen it in my own clan. The topic of the xbox 1 vs. the PS4 keeps coming up and there's one guy that is Mr. Expert that will not let anyone get out a thought-he talks over them, basically calls them idiots and so on. No one wants to hear a side that does not agree with their position.
Fans should become consumers. Content as well as mechanics should always be critiqued and complaints should not always be met with ridicule. If someone does complain and is misinformed then yes they should be given information. If they keep on spewing misinformation then they don't want to learn.
Fans should also consider becoming vocal. Mass Effect 3 was A start-EA did it all in that game. Day one DLC. MP that was needed for SP, even when Bioware lied and said it wasn't. And volumes of lies that were told to fans in order to ensure pre-orders. People yell at Trion over the DLC and over semantics at it being called a Season Pass-but one look at what EA and Bioware did with ME3 and Trion's missteps or the misinterpretation of Defiance fans really seems minimal by comparison.
What some people did with Mass Effect 3 though could not happen here. People did and are still in the process of, mod the game's ending to at least give it some of what they wanted. But that is in the single player portion. Of course modding any MP game would not be allowed (if found).
What many suggested is that people get together and remake Mass Effect 3-couldn't do it for various reasons, some legal of course. Others have suggested the formation of a fan-created game development company. Well, that's an idea-expensive and also it would involve a lot more than what some may think. Writers, graphic artists, cgi, and more but most importantly the ability to work together and to make sense. Re-read the part about people not wanting to listen to anyone else.
@ Nyako
Your points are well-taken. People often do not understand the realities that companies and their employees must deal with. Some of them have to do with uncertainties about the future. If I am writing a book and tell my fans (presuming I have any) that the book will be ready in a month and I don't deliver on that promise, then they might complain. If I tell my fans that in my next book there will be some big surprises and no one thinks they're that great, my fans might desert me. If I claim that the book will be the best they've ever read, I am probably lying. If my publisher gives me rules that say I cannot disclose any portion of the plot or reveal any secrets because they want to use them as teasers in marketing and I go ahead and do that anyway, I may be in breach of my contract.
In gaming, all sorts of things come into play-some are legal. So employees may know that on a certain date something will happen but they can't tell. They may know that the devs are working to fix certain issues but may not be able to talk about them-even admitting that a certain bug exists could cause legal trouble. And apologizing for some possible mistake can also be an indication of wrongdoing that lawyers would advise against.
This is my biggest issue at times. Intellectual property of a company you helped out or worked for, you did such and such coding to do such and such concept one way. You can't fully do that concept the same way with the same coding again for another company. This can get your company into hot water if the code is too similar and the other company finds out. I think this is why most programmers/developers try to always work for the same company no matter what. This is just one of those things like you said that plays a role in game development, and basically any software development.Quote:
Originally Posted by Indra Echo
And yes, apologizing for mistakes (your own or others' mistakes) can be legally wrong to the point that you whine up with hefty fines and more. More being if laws were broken enough, possible jail time too. Not sure if that has happened, but I'm pretty sure that was what the "... to the fullest extent of the law..." portion of NDAs and/or other company policies on disclosures and intellectual property rights meant. You just can't ever cross that line, which is sad and very hard to not do at times. In all the posts in this thread that I've done, I've had to delete and rewrite them about 5 times for every one post I have done, because I so want to tell things I know as well, but I know I can't.