Upcoming Balance Changes

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Originally Posted by IAMVILELENT

If you've used the SAW with a burst mod youd see that putting a burst mod on it makes your first 6-10 shots way more accurate then without it. You literally burst, a burst fire. If that makes sense.

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I put a burst mod on a saw and was horrified with the outcome - Couldn't control it like I wanted and the recoil and bloom would go uncontrollable after 1 burst.

I'm 2-3x more accurate with the ability to control my own burst (2-3 shots, stop, followed by 1-2) than I am with a recoil hungy burst mod saw.

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Originally Posted by Rakshasa

You're not alone. This seems to be a summary of the #1 negative comment here. I've read "the SAW is the best gun in the game, why nerf it?" over and over.

The answer is in the question -- there shouldn't be an undisputed #1 gun. There shouldn't be one "best weapon", if you care anything at all about having some kind of balance in a game. Obviously the devs do, and some of the players do as well.

The fact that most all of us do honestly and realistically recognize that the SAW is the "top gun" due to the relative ease with which you can pour out huge dps from a massive clip, is the exact reason that it is due for some adjustment to get it back in line with the weapon curve of the game.

Now, there absolutely are other guns that need some upwards adjustment to get them in line as well, particularly some of the poor LMGs whose drawbacks and usability quirks make the amount of damage they do not worth the trouble. They need a buff of some kind to fall in line with the rest of the arsenal. But when you look at the numbers, the SAW is out of line with all weapons, not just its fellow LMGs. And unlike a lot of weapons, there's no real limitation that makes you work to get the dps out of it. You don't have to worry about crits or precision, you don't have to worry about ammo limitations and reloading, you don't have to rely on nano proc rates or mod combos. All you have to do is have the slightest bit of discipline to let up on the trigger once in a while, and you have the easy-mode king dps gun by default. There's a reason people are paying silly amounts of scrip for just this one type of gun, and the fact that they are highlights the problem.

So at this point, the devs basically have 3 options:

1. Forget about the idea of balance altogether, and just let there be one or two weapons that are so clearly overpowered that people have apparently based their entire desire to play the game on using one. (Which boggles my mind, but whatever.) Just give up and make it basically a one-gun game. But to counter the "game/enemies/content is too easy!" complaints we already hear all the time, all content will then have to be calibrated with the assumption that everyone is using that top-end weapon, making all the other guns seem even more weak and obsolete. Think some weapons seem useless now? Balance all the content vs the most overpowered ones, and 98% of them will be useless.

2. Try to have balance by buffing all the other weapons to roughly the same level of power as the dominant weapon, whether by increasing their dmg, fire rates, lessening their quirky limitations, etc. Then we have all super guns. Every weapon is totally awesome. Yay. But without also buffing up our adversaries, all the folks who already complain about the game and enemies being way too easy will be absolutely right. If every weapon has comparable dmg and ease of use as the SAW, then what we're shooting at is going to have to be seriously buffed up as well, or things will be far too easy. And once you do that, guess what? You've accomplished the exact same thing as reducing the SAW's power, because it's all relative. You've just brought it in line by raising every other number in the game, rather than lowering its number. It's the same result.

3. Try for some balance by bumping the most obvious statistical outlier down a bit, to get it back closer to the rest of the guns in the game.

I am not surprised they're going with 3, and I would too, if I were them. Despite the outcry, we don't even know how much it'll be adjusted yet -- it might be a little, it might be a lot. I suspect it'll still have the insane ammo reserve, be just as point-and-shoot easy as it is to use now, and two of them well-modded and used with Preparedness will probably still feel like you've turned on a cheat code somehow. There are other ideas they could do, that people have pointed out here -- make you slow to a crawl when you have one armed, make your aiming response slower, etc. But we all know people would cry bloody murder over those too, and they'd also be "nerfs" which rendered their baby "****ing useless!!!1!!11!!omgimnevergoingtoplayagain!!1!!".

An adjustment to the damage seems to me to be a reasonable way to address the balance and make it competitive with the better ARs and SMGs, provided they don't go completely overboard and make it competetive with the Disruptor. :p

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by piercehead

I care not for PvP, which is most of what you're saying. Also, you're arguing about how much less damage you do against people with damage reduction perks, which are % based, so affect all weapons equally...which is pointless. You're arguing that up to and over 100 rounds of 400 dmg before reductions may require you to reload to kill someone? What, you want the gun to also be the a great burst weapon too...or maybe not have to suffer a long reload time as a penalty of having an enormous magazine?

Mainly though, nothing you say counters anything I posted, so how exactly do I not "know wtf you're talking about"?.

Yes, it has falloff over 40m...like every gun in the game apart from snipers. You're trying to compare the RoF with other LMGs, seriously? The ones that fire faster either a) do about half damage and start off less accurate or b) fire in bursts with a massive delay between bursts, hence why everyone agrees all the other LMGs are schtako.

Recoil? If you're using it at its optimum range, that's not a problem...or if you're using Overcharge. If you want to shoot stuff at long range, that's kind of why there are these other weapons, with more accuracy and smaller clips (Snipers, ARs). Or you really DO think the SAW should be able to beat every gun at every range? :P

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1. You don't get 100 rounds in PVP, and they dont do 400 dmg, unless a person equiped NO defensive perks. Players have a natural/un-noted defense against other players in PVP - Thus you have no idea wtf you're talking about, that's for starters. PVP warranted a damage reduction? I think not.

2. Other guns don't suffer as much bloom, nor recoil as an LMG SAW - So yea, in PVP if someone has defensive perks stacked, it makes the gun even less reliable then others in PVP, considering it has little to no mobility, and requires you to "setup" to fire accurately, making ANY other weapon better then it in ANY CQC, or 30m+ Range. This warranted a damage reduction? I think not.

3. Were talking fall off after 40m ONTOP of added recoil and bloom at that range, taking into consideration every other aspect of the gun, what justifies reducing its damage if out of 7-10 sustained fired rounds outside 40m you're bound to land maybe 4 or 5 of them? And this is all within burst range, we aren't even getting into the full auto aspect, which makes sustained fire outside of 30m pointless, you basically HAVE to stop firing for about 1.5 seconds for your bloom to reset, by that time, if you have fired that much that you have to wait for a bloom reset, you've already missed dozens of shots. This all warranted a damage reduction? I think not.

4. Thank you for noting that the other LMG's are terrible, and not worth a damn, as I already stated. Not sure you meant to do that to your own argument. This warrants a buff for the other LMGs? I think so.

5.Snipers go WELL beyond the 40m range, as do, AR's. My argument with the guns "primary zone" is that outside or before it, the gun almost becomes useless against - Any sniper rifle/AR/infector long range - Any SMG,shotty,infector close range in the hands of a decent player. Still does this warrant a damage reduction? I think not.

6.As for recoil, OC effects recoil, it does NOT effect the weapons bloom, which is the same and still crap. After the first 10-15 rounds, sustained fire isn't an option unless you want to start landing every other 3 shots. Regardless of optimum range, if your not pulling your mouse down while firing or at least controlling the recoil, the recoil makes a backwards question mark shape (if you REALLY want to get into detail.) about half way through a 84 round mag. Does this still warrant a damage reduction? NOPE.

7.The SAW DOESN'T beat every other gun at every range, nor does it outdamage anything in close range or long range, it's a perfect mid range weapon that doesn't need tweaking, its susceptible to CQC weapons, as well as long range weapons, it suffers from high recoil and bloom while moving/sustained fire & it has long reload times, it does what it is designed to do, reward decent damage for players who take their time,setup, and burst fire it accurately while controlling its recoil, all while being semi stationary and taking return fire from the enemy.

On the Flipside
-The weapon does massive damage at arkfalls, because you have an open stationary target that gives 100% crit rate while shot. THAT'S why you see huge numbers from SAW users at arkfalls. Does this warrant a damage reduction because of a stationary target that rewards you a 100% crit rate? NO it doesn't.

So bud when you're ready to come back with a real argument please do, don't just repeat everything I said. You said it was a long needed nerf, but I doubt you EVER said ANYTHING about it. Suddenly people are pissed about something that impacts YOU little too none, and all you can say is how you enjoy how pissed the community is, you're pure garbage.

Like I already I said, I don't PvP, and that's clearly where you have issues with it. I don't care about that, as I already said.

You said not to copy everything you posted so I'll just mention your first point:

You - "1. You don't get 100 rounds in PVP, and they dont do 400 dmg, unless a person equiped NO defensive perks. Players have a natural/un-noted defense against other players in PVP - Thus you have no idea wtf you're talking about, that's for starters. PVP warranted a damage reduction? I think not."
Me - "You're arguing that up to and over 100 rounds of 400 dmg before reductions may require you to reload to kill someone?"
Also, what are you on about not getting 100 rounds in PvP, I have a mag modded LMG that has well over 100 rounds unless they suddenly changed mods in PvP? An 84 round mag? That must be some kind of holy grail weapon (i.e. doesn't exist). [and if I really want to go into detail I can tell you the recoil is random up/left/right, not a fixed pattern]

Not sure how me mentioning the other LMGs are worse goes against my argument that the SAW needs nerfing but hey.

Anyway, you're paraphrasing me big time in the rest of your post. Argue with yourself.

Why did the petition thread get closed. Could mods devs here ralise that we may want more of an explanation for your actions rather than just deleting with a opy and paste thread. Do you care what we think? You do not act like it and seem to margenalize your views. If you wish for people to not share an opinion or question things publicly make it a rule. Then those of us who enjoy conversation and customer support will not bother to use your forum for feedback.

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Originally Posted by dominad

Why did the petition thread get closed. Could mods devs here ralise that we may want more of an explanation for your actions rather than just deleting with a opy and paste thread. Do you care what we think? You do not act like it and seem to margenalize your views. If you wish for people to not share an opinion or question things publicly make it a rule. Then those of us who enjoy conversation and customer support will not bother to use your forum for feedback.

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They closed the thread and explained that they don't want petition threads.

You're asking if they care what we think and suggesting they don't want people to share opinions, despite this very much open thread being about the upcoming balance changes. Post what you think here, no?

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Originally Posted by dominad

Why did the petition thread get closed. Could mods devs here ralise that we may want more of an explanation for your actions rather than just deleting with a opy and paste thread. Do you care what we think? You do not act like it and seem to margenalize your views. If you wish for people to not share an opinion or question things publicly make it a rule. Then those of us who enjoy conversation and customer support will not bother to use your forum for feedback.

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The posted Code of Conduct is pretty straightforward on this, if you give it a read:

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Examples of non-constructive discussion include:

- Spam posts that lack meaningful content and do not add to the conversation: This includes: in before lock, +1, first, /10char, etc.
- Cross-forum posting: Posting the same discussion, link, or guild recruitment repeatedly and across numerous forums in an attempt to gain a wider audience or more attention. This splits a discussion across the boards rather than allowing for one centralized discussion that is easily read by all.
- Naming & Shaming
- Disruption of Official Posts: These threads are created by the Devs, Community Team, or other Trion employees in an attempt to gather feedback or provide information to players. Most times these threads will be heavily moderated, and any off-topic posts will be removed.
- Demands/Polls/Petitions

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Petition threads are not allowed, multiple spamming of the same thing over and over usually isn't. But clearly there are plenty of threads operating within the rules that have lots of people expressing their opinions. Just like this one.

EDIT: Upon reading further, I see I spoke too soon, lol. With people resorting to personal attacks, profanity, and gamers calling their fellow gamers "pure garbage" for having a different opinion, this thread does actually violate the CoC now. Depending on how much leeway the mods want to give, the offending posts could be deleted or the entire thread locked because people don't know how to conduct themselves.

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Originally Posted by Rakshasa

The posted Code of Conduct is pretty straightforward on this, if you give it a read:



Petition threads are not allowed, multiple spamming of the same thing over and over usually isn't. But clearly there are plenty of threads operating within the rules that have lots of people expressing their opinions. Just like this one.

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Ahh I forgot that one thank you.
I don't have much to add on the matter they will do as they want anyway. I was of the team don't nerf anything as it would upset people either way. Just fix the game bugs worry about guns later.

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Originally Posted by dominad

Ahh I forgot that one thank you.
I don't have much to add on the matter they will do as they want anyway. I was of the team don't nerf anything as it would upset people either way. Just fix the game bugs worry about guns later.

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Eh, I'm not too bothered anymore about these nerfs. Just to take in two sides: On the left is leave SAWs alone, beef other LMGs and scrap the nano cooldown. On the right is nerf SAW damage juuuust a bit, BUT ALSO beef up other LMGs and perhaps tweak the nano cooldown delay effects a bit.

Now leaving the SAWs alone is out of the question, it'll eventually get a nerf, but in turn try to beef up other LMGs to promote more adversity and options. Like umm, disruptors for example could do with extra fire rate and a little more accuracy. Thats just my opinion, otherwise the nano proc cooldown is probably fine as it is. It mainly looks like it's a counter to constant siphon procs.

In PvP if you get hit by a siphon tachmag SMG, it'll proc so damn much it'll send someone into purple mist in seconds, while the shooter walks un-hurt. Same for PvE, siphon just completely dwarfs every other effect in most situations. So this cooldown is a decent balance to siphon, however lots of people have invested too much into finding and using siphon weaponry. Likely sawed offs and nano fraggers will be fine for the most part, however everything else that has semi to full auto fire with siphon will pretty much just be treated as a non nano weapon.

Now fire, poop shoes, radiation, toxicity, and electricity just need to be enacted once for their full affect. Siphon however needs constant procs to be of real use, else getting the occasional 200-400ish siphon won't make that much difference. Then again the weapon/nano doesn't make the player a player, the player makes the player.

I'm in no way saying "NERF THE *OO-LA-LA* OUTTA SAWS AND NANO TRIGGERS", but just looking at those two issues another way makes it seem umm... Seen in a more positive way?

Wow, you guys just nerfed everything instead of buffing anything. I'm not interested in trading all the stuff I have for other stuff once this goes live. Show some creativity and buff something. If this goes live, I'll just stop playing and wait for FF14 which is already pre-ordered. So delay patch until August 27th ish please, Early Access is probably 2 weeks before so mid-August would be ok too.

Such hard fail.