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Is there any information on what the size of the full damage radius is for rocket launchers and detonators? I keep acquiring weapons and mods with that bonus but don't really have any idea how much improvement it does since I don't know the before and after area of effect.
*IMPORTANT EDIT: For anyone reading this, please read on for the discussion, Full Damage Radius mods are not bugged. Here I tested "Blast Radius" and not the radius at which full damage is dealt or "full Damage Radius." Ill leave this in for anyone who was similary confused and am in the process of testing "Full Damage Radius." Sorry for any confusion this has caused.Quote:
Originally Posted by alienstookmybeer
Damage Radius Range Mods and Bonuses are bugged atm. I'm not sure how known it is, but I tested it personally, and have submitted a bug report. Neither mods or Bonuses are actually adding radius atm.
Say word?!!?!?!?!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilxain
Can anyone confirm this??
How did you test this? Without the Full Damage Radius being displayed in the weapon details, how do you know it's not being added to? Unless you're confusing this with Blast Radius??
I can tell you what I did to test it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope499
I had a Big Boomer with a bonus +.40 radius and a mod of +.60 radius. I then bought a Big Boomer with no bonuses and put no mods in it. Then I equipped the Modded one and went to a place where I could easily mark where I was shooting. I placed a grenade in the spot I picked out and then walked away. I exploded them until I found the exact max distance of the modded Boomer. Then I equiped the unmodded Boomer with no bonuses and shot it into the same spot. If the radius were working I should take no damage from the explosion because I should be out of its range. I did however take damage (and the same amount of damage at that - which would be expected if the radius were the same).
hum, maybe I am confused. I assumed they were the same thing, maybe I'm wrong. What is full damage radius be then?Quote:
Originally Posted by alienstookmybeer
Yep, I think the full damage radius would be the area of effect where enemies take 100% of the damage. How big that radius is exactly (1/2 of blast radius?) is what I'm looking for.
Well I could continue my test and test that too. Since I took the same amount of damage at max distance with both weapons, then I could also test 1/2 and 1/4 just to be sure. I salvaged my non modded Boomer though :-( so I'll have to wait until I can get another.Quote:
Originally Posted by alienstookmybeer
If I come across one I'll post a note here and I can arrange to donate it to you, but I just have a modded one too atm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the increased full damage radius buffs don't increase the size of the blast radius. I.E. the distance at which mobs take damage. Rather they increase the size "within" the blast radius where mobs take full damage.
Or to put it another way, for ranged weapons it's similar to +falloff damage mods, those don't increase the distance at which you can do damage to mobs, it just increases the distance at which the damage starts to decrease.
I just tested the one I have with +.40 and +.60 and the radius at which I receive full damage is ~1/4 the blast radius.
Really? I think they do help... but it could just be wishful thinking on my partQuote:
Originally Posted by Nilxain
Nice, thanks for the info!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilxain
Edit: Though I wonder if it's a % of blast radius, or a set value like Big Boomer default value is 1.5 and Ground Pounder is 1.0.
I was just thinking the same thing. Since they normally give us % increase in the form of "x1.n" (like x.1.10) or decrease in the form of "x.n" (like x.85) I am leaning toward this being a "+.n meters" instead of "+ a percent", but I'm not sure... Does anyone know for sure?Quote:
Originally Posted by alienstookmybeer
v.v'Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilxain
Well that blows. I stuck a radius range + on my swarmy cannon, but if that's what you're seeing I'll have to keep it in mind for next time. Thx for the personal info Nilxain
I think the mod just adds to the range like +0.6 meters. Though I know you get a 15% bonus at skill level 15 and have also seen a 15% bonus once with the weapon mastery for a rocket launcher. It's the starting value I'm not sure if it's made to be a percent of the weapon blast radius or if it's just a set value that differs with the type of detonator or rocket launcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilxain
Nilxain, you might want to edit your post about it being bugged.
If it does add meters then my mod + bonus would be adding 1 meter making my full damage radius ~1.65 meters and in turn the base damage radius .65 meters (on the Big Boomer) which is ~.39% of 1.65. So it should be between 1/3 and 1/2 of my current "full damage radius" - which I should be able to still measure with my method of testing :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by alienstookmybeer
Once I get a new Big Boomer I will finish the test a verify the base "Full Damage Radius" for sure (or really close to sure lol) and we will know if that is in fact what it means and if it's working - which I'm thinking it probably is lol.
It passed right over me what you meant here because I was still trying to figure out if my method was accurate enough to test changes this small (which I believe it is). I have a Grenade Launcher too, which is 4.6 Blast Radius instead of the 6.6 that theBig Boomer has. I'll test it and if its Full damage radius is ~9-10% of the Blast Radius then I think we could assume that the size of the Full damage radius might be a function of the size of the Blast Radius.Quote:
Originally Posted by alienstookmybeer
Ok Lots of spam from me lmao. I tested the Grenade Launcher and though 1/10 the size of 4.6 Is getting very small for my marking system, it does appear like the base "full Damage Radius" is ~1/10 of the Blast Radius. I really need to finish the test with the Big Boomer to confirm this prediction, but pending that test it sure does look like the base Full Damage Radius is about 1/10 of the Blast Radius on a Detonator.
I do want to add that 10% of any of these numbers is relatively small which means that adding .4 to it would actually be a significant change - in the case of the Grenade Launcher it almost doubles it. Once I get my other Big boomer I will also test to see if adding Radius also changes how the explosion diminishes or if it just drops off to its regular or base rate once it's out side of the added range.
No, good stuff.. keep it coming!
I could see the 1/10th making sense and they might possibly scale the damage down 10% for every 1/10th further you move away from the full damage radius. That would make the mass cannon starting full damage radius ~0.2 meters.. ouch!
Yeah lol, still I can't be sure that it works the same for Rocket Launchers as it does for Detonators. But if it does then consider adding .4 or .6 to it... that would be a 200% and 300% increase! respectively. And remember, I haven't finished the original test, so if the "full damage Radius" doesn't actually change (or changes but not by the predicted amount) between the 2 boomers then something isn't working or we are wrong about what the mod/bonuses are supposed to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by alienstookmybeer
I have a Ground Pounder with x1.15, +0.40 & +0.60, so I'm very interested in knowing the results of your tests. Keep it coming! :D
You should definitely donate that for research purposes :)Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteGoblin
Ok, I had a second boomer drop with no bonuses and finished the test, however… after leaving and coming back I did not feel like the spot I was using really was good enough to accurately test this – I just didn’t feel like I could accurately replicate the experiment. I did see a change (so the mod/bonuses do effect the radius at which the full damage occurs), but I did not feel like I could tell by how much – short of a really bad guess. So, I searched for another spot where I could more accurately mark the distances and do the whole test over from the beginning - since originally I only planed on testing blast radius.
**In the following I will use “m” (meters) as the unit of measurement for distance, but I would prefer to call them “defiance distance units” because they do not seem big enough to be meters but also not small enough to be a foot.
The max distance that I took damage from both boomers was 37 marks (so 37marks = 6.6m). The range that my modded/bonus boomer did full damage to me was 14 marks, and the range that my unmodded /no-bonus boomer did full damage was 8 marks.
37marks = 6.6m
(6.6/37) * 14marks = 2.49m
(6.6/37) * 8marks = 1.42m
1.42m is 21% of 6.6 (so not 10%)
*since 2.49 is basically 1m more than 1.42 I am going to assume that the difference is due to the inaccuracy of the measurement, and that they are really just 1m apart. I will include this in the recap but let me know if you think this is a step too far. I wish I had a Grenade Launcher with +.4 and +.6 so I could verify :-( I honestly wont feel comfortable about this until I can lol.
Now to test the Grenade Launcher and see if I could find a % that might be used as a standard base full damage radius. The max distance that the Grenade Launcher damaged me was 26 marks (so 26marks = 4.6m). The max distance that I was hit for full damage was 3 marks. Note: 3 marks really felt like it was getting too close to the explosion (with this system) to be accurate - since it looks like the size of the explosion determines the rate at which the damage diminishes.
26marks = 4.6m
(4.6/26) * 3marks = .53m
.53m is 11% of 4.6 (so not equal to the % max distance on the boomer)
Last, I tested if the explosion diminished at the same rate or a different rate once the mod/bonus was added. I realized at the end of this that I should have put on a big shield so that I never got hit for any of my life - since 1 bar of shield does not necessarily equal 1 bar of life. As it was getting late I did not feel like going back and doing this part over, so I just noted the two separately (s = shield and L = life).
Marks (distance from the grenade) | Mod/Bonus Boomer | Basic Boomer
37 2s 2s
30 5s 4s
20 10s 8.5s
14 10s + 2.5L (full damage) 10s + 1L
8 10s +2.5L (full damage) 10s + 2.5L (full damage)
**grrr** It won't show my table :-(
This shows that the explosion does diminish at a different rate. So, by increasing the Full Damage Radius you also increase the damage done beyond the full damage radius up until the Blast Radius.
A recap:
- +.4 and +.6 radius is adding “defiance distance units” to the radius at which full damage occurs which are a significant increase, should gain in value for smaller blast radii, and I do believe are worth using - which I'll talk about in my final thoughts.
- The base full damage radius may be different for each weapon and I was not able to determine if it is a flat % of the blast radius.
- By increasing the full damage radius you also increase the damage the explosion does beyond the full damage radius up until the point of the blast radius.
Final thoughts and future interesting questions:
Doing all of this begs the question: Is + full damage radius better than the other mod and bonus choices?
At ~54% of the blast radius on my big boomer the mod plus bonus (.6 + .4) adds ~279 damage, where a damage mod and bonus (x1.07 + x1.05) adds 180 damage to the total. So where the mobs within the base full damage radius are taking 180 more damage (with plus damage mod (x1.07) + bonus (x1.05)), the mobs half way in the blast radius are taking 280 more damage (with radius mod (+.60) + bonus (+.40)) – this seems like it would matter even more on a smaller blast radius as it should diminish more quickly. Thoughts?
And as for crits, mostly I use my detonators on Volge (the ground pounder will 1 shot them) and at plague sieges (when we had them /cry). For plague sieges I did get a lot of crits. Without doing any math (because they aren’t in the game anymore so it doesn’t matter) the crit bonus/mod may be better. For the Volge, I never crit on them so crit would be worthless. Thoughts?
Well that was my 2 cents. Please let me know if I over looked something or made any mistakes, and I’m looking forward to any future discussion :-)
Awesome work Nilxain. There's one more thing I'm wondering about: if you get a full damage radius multiplier bonus (like *1.20 on a purple detonator), does it apply to the base radius, or to the modified one? Given the way other multipliers work in this game, I'm guessing it applies to the base radius, but it'd be great if you could possibly test that. If you're on PC EU I have a matchlock boomer with that bonus that I could lend you.
Going back to math class, it does not matter. With multiplication the total would be the same either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekrunner
(2*3)4=24 2(3*4)=24
Might want to check which formulas you are using there. In this instance it does matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maitreakow
(A+B)*C != A+(B*C)
What I mean is this. Say your base full damage radius is 2m. Your detonator has a +0.40m bonus, and you put a +0.60m mod on it. Its xp roll is *1.25 full damage radius. Is the final radius:Quote:
Originally Posted by Maitreakow
- (2 + 0.4 + 0.6)*1.25 = 3.75m
- or 2*1.25 + 0.4 + 0.6 = 3.5m
Actually, writing this makes me realize it might be difficult to distinguish between the two, unless you have the perfect weapon for it (orange big boomer with radius bonus and radius xp roll). The spread may just be too small in other cases.
In this post we have been functioning on the assumption that it's not actually a multiplier but instead just additive - since they come in the form of "+.40" and "+.60". The test does seem to support this assumption. Do you have one with a multiplier? What does it say exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekrunner
If you are looking at something with a multiplier (like crit x1.25 and x1.15) it does not matter how you cut it, because by saying x1.25 you are saying add 25% of the current number to the current number.
Example:
If your crit. mult. is x1.0 and you have both the mod (x1.15) and the bonus (x1.25) then,
1.0 * 1.15 * 1.25 = 1.4
Seeing it in this form may help show that it doesn't matter, since it's all multiplication - even though you are "adding a %." So to answer your question: It increases the modified number - but if you wanted to take the % of the base and add it, then you would get the same number.
**edit - later testing (way after this post and on a different subject) shows that all mods increase off the base damage, not the modded number. In this case it does not matter because it yields the same number, but in cases where not everything is in % form you will get the wrong number if you add it to a modded number (example: mag mods).
I don't recognize this number, can you explain please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tekrunner
*Edit: I clicked on one of your links and saw full damage radius listed with multipliers (like x1.25). I have not seen it done this way yet, and mine doesn't have it in this form. Maybe that was the way they did it before? Do you have one with this multiplier (or anyone else reading this)?
Since they have been quite literal with their numbers I do think that "+.n" (like +.40 or +.60) does actually mean plus that number - instead of it meaning something like +40% which they normally would show as x1.40. The results from my test do seem to support this, but I don't want to say that (with this marking system) it is out of the realm of possibilities - I just think it's unlikely at this point.
Great work, Nilxain!
Good catch on finding out that the full damage radius bonus also increases damage outside of the full damage radius. I definitely feel comfortable using this mod over a general damage mod going forward.
Did your character have the detonator weapon level 15 15% full damage radius bonus as well?
I think he means the weapon mastery bonus from that particular weapon is x1.25 full damage radius. Nice bonus but appears would be a smaller increase than a +.40 bonus (but great for combining with +.4 and +.6)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nilxain
That's exactly what I mean, yes. As soon as I'm back home I'll post a screenshot of a detonator with such a mastery bonus, just to be clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by alienstookmybeer
OH I missed that in the link. So mastery bonuses for Full Damage Radius are a multiplier. Ok I see now, then here's how I think it will work (UNTESTED because I do not have this to test):Quote:
Originally Posted by alienstookmybeer
(FDR*1.25) + (mods and bonuses)
Just thinking about it logically I think that it would make the most sense to increase the base FDR (with the multiplier) before adding any addition bonuses - for many reasons not limited to the bonus functioning on its own instead of being dependent on other mods/bonuses. But that does not mean it has to be this way - as noted it could be:
(FDR + (mods and bonuses)) * 1.25
^these would yield different numbers - the second would be larger.
*EDIT: It really could be either way though, I would like to test this.
**edit (much later) - the first one is correct.
Thanks :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by alienstookmybeer
No :-( I don't have one with that, BUT I haven't maxed either Bo0mer out yet, maybe I'll get lucky so I can test it! However, from the post on bonuses it looks like I have a 1 in 38 chance to get one :-( so unless you can only get some bonuses on some weapons then it doesn't look good lol.
Ah my misunderstanding. As Nilxian talks about, I had thought this was a multiplier, rather than a straight additive effect. I need to go back a reread the findings evidently, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Conneri
too mashed for all this umbo jumbo.
Full DMG radius work or not?
Yes
A little
Or no are acceptable answers :p
Kinda maybe
Short Answer: Yes :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope499
- It does work and increases the radius at which the full damage occurs (not the full radius at which damage occurs ie: Blast Radius)
Other things found:
- Full Damage radius also increases the damage out side of the full damage radius up to the point of the blast radius where all are the same.
- Not all of the bonuses are additive - specifically the Mastery Bonus is a multiplier - and therefor we don't know the order of which it applies. But, I have speculated in a previous post that it may be (FDR*multiplier) + (mods and bonuses).
- I have not yet been able to identify a standard base full damage radius as a % of blast radius.
Thanks for your tests, really appreciated! :D
I'm still wondering between the +0.60 FDR or x1.07 mods for a Ground Pounder though, compared to a Big Boomer. They don't really work the same when it comes to practical situations : 1 instant explosion right where it was stuck versus 3 delayed explosions surrounding the initial marker. Most of the problem can be resolved by knowing how you prefer to play your cards, but there's one crucial information I'm still missing...
Is the FDR calculated from the first spot the explosion hits the mob, or from the center-point of the mob?
Take the Monarch for example. Whether you prefer the Big Boomer for an instant explosion or the Ground Pounder where you have to wait for a "pause" in the Monarch's movement for best results is up to the player's play style. But if the explosion, be it instant or not, happens right at the end of his foot, does it have the same effect as if the explosion happens right on his belly? For a skitterling, that doesn't really matter, but for a large mob like a Monarch?
I'm just wondering, as the +0.60 would benefit more if it's calculated from the mob's center-point. If not, the x1.07 mod would be better against a single Monarch with a Ground Pounder. It's very situational, I know, but I'm still having a headache because of that little dilemma. :confused:
When I read you guys were actually critting, I thought I had the answer to my question. I never crit with the Ground Pounder, probably because the explosions always happen on the ground. So I'm guessing you guys stick the explosive on the mob's crit area and the instant explosion generates a crit? If that's true, then I guess explosion damage is calculated from where the blast radius hits the mob first. I haven't played enough with other explosive weapons to confirm this myself though...