This is confusing me. The nearest star to us is, I think, 4 light years away. That system isn't a binary star system, like the Votans star system is. (Is it called Votanis?) So the only reasonable way they got here was the Indogenes had FTL drives.
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This is confusing me. The nearest star to us is, I think, 4 light years away. That system isn't a binary star system, like the Votans star system is. (Is it called Votanis?) So the only reasonable way they got here was the Indogenes had FTL drives.
This is completely incorrect.
The Arks traveled 5014 years to get to Earth. They left the Votanis system (yes, it's called that) in 3001BCE. They arrived at Earth in 2013CE. If they were traveling at half C (the speed of light), then any star within 2507 light years (ly) could have been their point of origin. Increase that to .95c and you get 4763.3ly. Current, actually used, human tech has reached speeds of about 0.05C (the Pluto Express probe's ION drive, and that speed was limited due to the fuel source being used up, not the theoretical top speeds; given an large enough fuel source an ion drive can actually reach just shy of C; 0.9999999C).
The nearest star to us IS part of a mulitple star system. Alpha Centari A and B are close binary (at 4.37ly) with a tertiary (Proxima Centari at 4.24ly) in gravitational association with them. There is even a possible exoplanet in the Alpha Centari system. Using KNOWN HUMAN REAL LIFE TECH, it is theoretically possible to get to the Alpha Centari system in as little as 85 years. (Unfortunately, some misguided politics and misguided environmentalism is stopping any experiments for proving this system works.)
Sirius is also a binary and it's only 8.6ly away.
There is a brown dwarf binary only 6.5ly way (WISE J104915.57-53190).
So, no. The writers of the lore actually used a time frame for the Votan migration which specifically avoids needing some FTL system.
Well that was educational, thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Deirachel
No problem. (I'm a Space Exploration Junkie.... stemming from a sincere belief humans have to get OFF this planet for our survival. If I had my druthers NASA and the DoD would switch budgets. It's shameful the way NASA is so underfunded. Especially considering the huge economic benefits of everything they ever did far outweighs any financial cost.)
I completey agree. Love the technical expaination.... who knows with that much travel to get here who's to say they weren't followed by an 8th race!
Im not a lore writer but it would sure make fore a great season to have another race show up out of the blue and try to dominate everyone. Perhaps a race that secretly caused the destruction of the Votanis system to draw them out.
So the Volge? They supposedly left them behind back when Votanis was going up.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBray1
I meant that sarcastically, I would hope they don't shoehorn in another race I just learned the names of the ones in the show/game.Quote:
Originally Posted by zazonion
FTL....
Fragmented Turkey Livers?
FTL= Faster than Light.
Warp in StarTrek, Hyperspace in StarWars, Inertialess Drive in the Lensman, Subspace Jump in Babylon5, Startdrive in Starship Troopers, Starburst in Farscape, FTL Drive in Battlestar Galactica, Jump Drive in a bunch of stuff, Space Fold in a bunch of stuff (like Macross, Event Horizon...), the Infinate Improbability Drive and Hyperdrive in Hitchhikers.
As for the Volge, I figured they built their own Ark (or captured one and made it look like it got destroyed) or they hitched a ride in some of the cargo spaces (like some of the lower Lira Casti and some of the Liberata, Irathients, and Sensoths.)
At the Observatory they have a pic of NGC 2244 which is around 4,900 light years away, if the Votans were traveling at neat light speed they might have made the journey in that time frame. Granted there was no way that humans would have know the Votans were from there when they built it but maybe the creators put it in (although we've been told that their system was on the Perseus arm while NGC 2244 is on the orion arm)
someone used LY as a measurement of time O_O
Well if it took them a year to journey one light year then it would take that long. Voyager 1 would take 19,000 years to travel one light year so the arks would be going much faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Guile
I appreciate the writers for not using the easy out of FTL drive like so many space travel stories do... it allows for the development of depth to the to Voltanis races. Think of of it... when pharaohs ruled and the Mayan Calendar began... Votans (Indogenes) invented the tech to leave their solar system.
As for the Volage... I figured some military minded general thought it would be a good idea to smuggle them onto a ark or two to help in the subjection of any possible aliens they encountered.
No I think the VC came to a decision to leave them in the system when their stars went up. Also since they took so long to get here, it's reasonable to assume they used cryosleep to get to the our system.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAndy00
The VC decided to leave the Volge behind but that doesn't stop enterprising indiviuals smuggling them aboard, or even a group like Dark Matter within the VC bringing them along as a bargaining chip/ attack force. It may also have been a group that thought they had no right to allow the volge to be destroyed and kept a few in stasis whcih then got released during the war.
not a good idea as I am not very punctual. Taken me 4 days to respond to this. See?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Guile
To respond to two previous posts: according to the Wiki, the Volge were hidden on board the Arks. They were not supposed to come along. Also, when the Votans arrived, they originally assumed Earth was uninhabited. Surprise!
If you're referring to my wiki, then you are referring to a comment someone made some time ago about the Volge. Many things have changed since then, so some of the older info is out of date, but we don't know what is correct in this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasczak
Thanks for that information. Although it terrifies me we are going to export our destructive rapacious nature to another planetQuote:
Originally Posted by Deirachel
If only Project Orion came into fruition...Quote:
Originally Posted by Deirachel
People don't seem to understand nuclear power is the only currently feasible power source for deep space exploration.
P.S. You might want to check out Projects Daedalus, Icarus, Longshot and the Mini Mag Orion if you want more info about nuclear pulse propulsion concepts
Yeah nuclear is the only feasable power for us at the mo but Fusion generators not insanely dropping bombs behind you! Orion was a fun concept but totally insane, but then most current long range space travel ideas are I like the Bussard Interstellar Ramjet but its simply impractical.
Nuclear pulse propulsion isn't necessarily insane. It combines an unparalleled thrust capability and a relatively high specific impulse (compared to chemical rockets) into a neat little package that can be built today.
As for the Bussard ramjet it has some drag problems that arise from particle interaction with the collector field thus limiting top speed. In addition it has to be boosted to operating velocity.
The insane bit is leaving highly charged particle pollution everywhere you go :) If we do ever meet another species I doubt they'd be happy if thats how we turned up! TBH anything that isn't some form of FTL is pretty pointless except as extreme measures as if you do get to an appreciable fraction of light speed relativity means when you get home everyone you know has been dead for centuries. Worm holes are an interesting hypothesis but come with a whole bunch of issues that may or may not mean its impossible the biggest being how do you aim each end? Works in Stargate due to the gates being anchor points but how do you get the gates there in the first place without some fictional 'HyperDrive'. Without gates even if you could aim where you wanted it to open the expansion rate of the universe means by the time to actually open it, it would be in a different place! Really hoping I live to see another revolution in physics which could prove everything we know not to be wrong (Newtons equations while not quite right are still the standard used) but maybe a little off!
Doubtful they did have their people in cryo sleep for the travel so they probably set off ages go before humans reached the anyform of technological advancements hence their surprise of any humans existing on earth when last they checked no sapient life was noticeable before they left the votan system.Quote:
Originally Posted by zazonion
This is the "misguided environmentalism" I referred to earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthalus
The level of particle "pollution" produced by even a few thousand nuclear explosions within a confined part of space a ship like this would produce is negligible compared to the radiation output of a star like the Sun (much less larger stars, pulsars, black holes, et al.). It's like saying we are going to cause the oceans to rise by putting in a cup of water at the beach once every month.
Pollution is not a problem if it is in small enough measures for the local environment to absorb and disperse. We could take ever piece of radioactive matter on this planet, shoot it into the Sun, and it wouldn't make a difference to Sol.
This. Couldn't have said it any better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deirachel
I remember reading the Votans came from the Perseus Veil (I think, it's where ever quarians from mass effect are from), I'm not sure the numbers on this, math is not my subject lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Deirachel
This is real interesting stuff. I'm somewhat interested in astrology but I had to choose timewise between Egyptian heirglyphics and astrology lost out. Im always happy to get a synopsis from others though.Quote:
Originally Posted by zazonion
I agree eventually we need to get off the planet. I mean, if nothing else EVENTUALLY our sun goes nova. But our planet economy has been based on finding new territory and destroying it, since the Romans. Now we are sorta out of usable continents, unless Antartica warms up and if it did, we would lose a lot of 'close to sealevel' stuff. Even in the short haul we are going to need to mine other somethings pretty soon. Probably starting with the asteroid belt.
Verda
Yeah but later they say that some knew there WAS sapient life. Oh yeah, the EP where the indogene doctor comes in. I really like her character too. She admitted they'd been here generations and had studied earth species before they left, even creating human looking indogene spies. They could not have made the human/indogene meld if they did not know about human. On the other hand I have to admit that it could be argued if we are sapient based on some of our behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoDraven
Also someone says, I think it was Irysa, looking at a dead body in a tube, that they traveled for generations in sleep only to die in it. So definitely they traveled a long time.
Verda
Perseus Arm.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Frikn Grizzly
It's a real part of the Milky Way. (The Perseus Veil is not, and it the fictional Nebula in Mass Effect).
It is one of two major arms of the Milky Way, and there is some speculation our little section of the galaxy (the Orion-Cygnus Arm) is a branch of the Perseus Arm. So, if this speculation is correct, saying they were from Alpha Centari wouldn't be in opposition to the statement the Votanis is in the Perseus Arm. Additionally, one of the observable objects in space, the Crab Nebula, is in the main part of the Perseus Arm. It is about 6,500ly away from us, but it sits on the far side of the Perseus Arm. If Votanis was in the primary part of the Perseus Arm, but on the nearest edge of it, then they are still within our defined range needed.
Late to the party again, but the Infinite Improbability Drive in Hitchhiker's is nothing like FTL.
The sun will not Nova...At least, not with a lot of help. It just does not have the mass to go nova. However, in about 5-6 billion years it will expand fairly rapidly into a Red Giant. It has the potential to be larger than earths current orbit, so it is a MASSIVE expansion, and unless we take the planet elsewhere, earth will likely be devoured. At *best* it will be cooked clean of anything resembling life, and the atmosphere will be blown out into space and the rock surface melts away... Anyhows, the sun will then eventually blow out a large cloud of gas, and the main core will collapse into a white dwarf (approx earth sized) as the super hot carbon generated during it's time as a red dwarf starts cooling. After a very long time (like, about 10-20 more billion years) it will eventually cool as a large hunk of mostly carbon... And carbon at that pressure forms...Diamond! >.< And earths corpse will likely be scattered through it, and in the gas cloud rapidly expanding around the solar system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Verda
http://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/Conte...cle-of-the-Sun
http://cde.nwc.edu/SCI2108/course_do.../lifecycle.htm has the actual science behind what will likely happen.
Althouhg we kow the arks took some 5K years to arrive that does not mean that other V ships could not have arrived decades before. It would likely have taken a lot of time to design, build, test, provision, and crew the arks. While I have seen several comments regarding how fast they might have travelled you have to take accelleration and decelleration into account as well. Bodies tend to break when subjected to high G loads for extended periods of time.
The solar system the Votans came from sounds facinating though. I need to read more about that.
Nerds. All of you.
It's awesome. lol
Yes, it is. It uses a crazy concept, but it is a method of traveling from point A to point B faster than light photons can travel the same distance. FTL is a fictional concept (at this point in our understanding of the Universe), but it's definition is just that simple (going from point A to point B faster than light can).Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimusanD
From the Timeline, we know the Arks began development in earnest sometime between 3449-3362 BCE, and they left the Votanis System in 3001 BCE. Additionally, from the show, we know for a fact Votan ships DID arrive on Earth way before the Ark Fleet. From the last few episodes (highlight to read easier because spoilers of sort) there is an ancient Indogene ship buried under Defiance with a weapon/device which can kill either all humans or all Votans. However, this doesn't mean they have FTL, as you pointed out, it took a long time to create, crew, and load the Ark Fleet. (Again, highlight) That ship could have left any time before 3001 BCE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Azimov
The reason for breaking (I'm assuming you're referring to damage, as you used deceleration in the previous sentence) is stress from opposing forces working on the object (friction vs. acceleration, gravity vs acceleration, etc). In interplanetary space, one would find the effect of opposing forces to be severely reduced as the outside forces are minimal. Additionally, we know the Votans have nanites specifically tasked with maintenance and repair of the ships. Anything with enough maintenance and repair will not have a catastrophic failure caused by stress, unless said stress is undetected. We don't know how many Arks left Votanis, nor how many actually arrived at Earth either. There could have been multiple fleets going in different directions (in an attempt to improve the odds for the species); there also could have been a number of Arks between Earth and Votanis which failed. Truthfully, we don't have any real life examples of objects undergoing high-g acceleration for extended periods of time in outer space. The longest missions were all very short duration high-G, followed by low-G acceleration.
Finally, there is an assumption in your statement, "high-G acceleration". We don't know they used high-G acceleration at all. Once one reaches escape velocity for a gravity well (a planet or star) and are outside the gravity force of the object, low-G acceleration for an extended period of time can reach extremely high speeds. Read the link I posted earlier which talks about how long it would take to reach Alpha Centari with modern technology. You will note the example of the DS1 satellite consumed 82.1kg of propellant to reach 56,000km/hr (0.000051c) over 20 months. If you increase the propellant used, for a longer period, and at a higher "burn" rate, one can reach high interplanetary speeds relatively quickly (in relation to 5000 years). (The author notes this in his final sentence in the section about Ion drives.)
In the back of my mind, a very cluttered place, I was thinking that if we could establish some range of delta v and working with the time frame we have we could narrow down the potential systems they came from.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deirachel
I understand that low accelleration over time can produce great velocity, but we have a finite amount of time we are working with for their travel time. So if they accellerated at an average velocity of 1g for 1500 years and them decellerated at 1 g for the same, how far away would their home star system be?
1G = 9.81m/s2
1G for that time frame (1500 years) is pointless, due to time dialation and special relativity. If one could maintain 1G for about 15 years, you'd be at 0.99999999999999c.
Formula to use:
V = c tanh (g T / c )
g = 9.80665 m/s^2
c = speed of light = 299,792,458 m/s
T = "proper time", the time measured in the spaceship
tanh = hyperbolic tangent
Using this formula (and ignoring time dilation), at that speed, we are talking any star system in the Perseus Arm within just shy of 5012.999ly.
The last two pics on the page should give you guys the sense of scale we're talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_Arm
Don't forget 1 light year is roughly 5,865,696,000,000 miles (9,460,800,000,000 kilometers) almost 6 trillion miles. Now imagine 5000 of those.
So basically what you are saying is that its going to take almost as long as for me to get the laundry folded and put away?Quote:
Originally Posted by Deirachel
Verda
I actually looked up and read your links! Thanks for providing them. Though my neural framework is a biologist. It gave me visions of watching suns in petri dishes for millions of years to figure out what phases they go through. Anyway thanks again for providing the links.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitch
Verda