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The only MMO I have ever played that gave me the feeling of achievement was Lineage 2. Took 50-100 people to actually kill an end game raid boss and if u died u lost xp. NCSOFT did a great job on that game. It was about a year until the server I was on could get enough organized individuals to kill Antheras. Those were the days.
Good old times when everyone ran around in their underwear if they were worried about losing stuff lol... Underwear armies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amonkira
As for hardcore vs casual, I don't even see it that way. (Depends on your definition, I just consider hardcore = spend most time playing and casual = spend spare time playing)
I play games maybe an hour or two a day if that. As I see it, I play fairly casually these days. I just like to PLAY my games - not have my hand held and knowing I can't possibly lose. I play a game to PLAY and BEAT the game. Not to have the game aim for me. Not to have the game tell me where to go. Not to press one button and watch the game do all the fun stuff in a lame quicktime event. (Thank god we don't have those in Defiance.) And so forth. I WANT TO DO THE WORK.
If I screw up, I want and deserve to pay for it. I want to be motivated to learn from it, to adapt to the situation and do everything in my power NOT to mess up again. As most games are, right now you can figuratively smash your head against a wall until you break through without consequence. Basically, glorified zerging. The only difference is instead of needing an army of zerglings you can do it yourself.
Hahaha oh my! Yeah I remember that far too well.. ******* I made alot of money porting ppl around when they had a raid that was wiped.. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Moose Of Woe
True - but hardcore and casual can be looked at from different angles. :) Casual for me is both easymode games AND/OR ppl who only plays for 1 or 2 hours.. :)
Exactly - I want a game that forces you to take a different route on a mission, if the first route didnt work out. We got braincells - lets use them :D
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Originally Posted by Amonkira
imo mmos are for anyone from casual to hardcore.... saying dont make a mmo easier for the more casual players is just being selfish... if u want competitive there's COD, BF, CS, SC, DOTA and a whole lot more.... im thinking firefall pvp might actually make it into the esports arena seing how much work they are putting into it and their god awesome spec system lol.
aim taking any more skill that say gw2 combat is a hilarious statement to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixa
aiming isn't hard. it's point and click.
this is almost 13 years since taht SUBSCRIPTION game was released. todays gamers have no patience for such gameplay anymore or the other korean grind garbage like aion and tera and rappelz and two moons (i could go on for an hour listing them there are over 100 translated korean mmorpg's running in the west right now) would have done a lot better than they did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin0101
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Originally Posted by dirtyklingon
it's hard on the people i know of for whom wow was not only their first mmorpg, but first game at all.
remember that mmo's were until recently first and foremost a social experience that predated the existence of facebook and tumblr.
guild wars is infnitely easier to play than this game esepcially as anything that casts as it is all locked on, chief.
Completely Agree.
Obvious post is obvious, but some one had to say it.
Lucky to be on alpha, the game will get very difficult as you progress through the campaign and the side quests and random events get harder but there is no "easy" mode
nobody will play it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Of Woe
1. it costs a helluva lot more to make an mmorpg now than it did when everquest was created. i was there, alpha testing that game. they had a small staff and a smaller budget.
2. UO's subs peaked at 300k, EQ at 500k. by today's standards for a paid game that's no longer considered successful enough to continue running
3. FTP and B2P have become an expected standard. the last three sub based mmorpgs - swtor, tera and the perfect world - all went f2p or b2p to remain afloat in their first year
4. if you really feel the way you do, go play eve or even go back to everquest - although everquest got rid of the leaving a loot-ridden corpse behind when you die now because their PAYING CUSTOMERS no longer tolerate it.
i miss spending 10 real life years getting a character to the level 50 cap in the MUD that everquest is strictly based on. i miss not being able to solo anything..not xp, not level 1-2, nothing. but not as often as i miss an mmorpg with an active playerbase.
i'm not implying mmo's are easy or hard. just that other games including shooters are also just as easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixa
i just spent a month in tera which is aiming and it was far more face roll than gw2.
this game isn't any harder than tera.
with a little time spent gaming you begin to evelop basic gaming skills, and then bam nothing is "hard" anymore. though quite honestly there hasn't been any truly hard games since nintendo was in everyone's living rooms back in the early 90s and late 80s.
there might be a learnign curve if you're new to shooters. sure. that doesn't mean that aiming is harder than click/tab targetting and hotbars. it's just a different set of basic gaming skills.
I guess i should post my opinion...i hate hard games. IMO every game should have every content of the game playable for everyone. For example: Easy mode raids. AND hard raids. That way we are all satisfied.
Ugh, i remember WoW....so hard ._.
mmo's are still social games. they are not lobby based shooters. they need to be accessible. fps games like bf3 and cod do not need to be accessible their core audience is substantially larger than this genre which is still considered a niche in the west.Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyklingon
this isn't 2003 bro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixa
mmo's do just as well on box sales as fps on average.
and there are bigger genres than either such as the MOBA fad that don't have aim.
saying aiming isn't accessible is silly.
ofc you can pretend that mmorpg's are easy mode, and then run straight to the forums to campaign for nerfs and buffs everytime someone beats you in pvp or outdpses you in a dungeon.
i'd also argue that cod and bf3 are far more accessible than any mmo, just by virtue of being pick up and play games that can be consumed in bite sized portions with out teh trappings of mmo's such as power curves and subs/cash shops. though that's changing.
as well speaking as a cs vet, cod and bf3 are the kiddie mode arcade shooters of a fallen genre that are full of handicaps for the unwilling and unable to play competently in fps games of days gone by. they have such low skill caps it's hilarious that they get featured in esports leagues and tourneys, which has lead many of my generation to consider esports as a rather funny joke that exists purely to legitimize a hobby as something that can be done for money instead of fun.
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Originally Posted by MrLostAlex
oh really? Chains of Promathia on PFFXI before it was nerfed and the level restrictions were removed.. I can assure you that NO ONE thought that was easy
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Originally Posted by dirtyklingon
no, mmo's do not do as well as shooters in box sales. bf3 sales exceeded the total box sales of world of warcraft last year at only 20 million. an mmo is considered successful with only 1 million sold. a non mmo is not considered successful with only 1 million sold.
the genre is still considered niche. there are facebook games with 10x the population of WoW in it's peak. i think it may be you who is still living in 2003
mmo success is not judged by box sales but rather by retention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dixa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlef...es_and_revenue
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ng_video_games
wow has 9.5 million active players after 8+ years. we can interpolate that it has sold more copies than it has active players.
bf3 sold 8 million copies. across 3 platforms. and yet it isn't even one of the top 10 selling games on any of those 3 platforms.
there are mmo's that have several times the total number of bf3 copies sold across all 3 platforms in active players right now on windows pc alone.
Well it's just marketing decisions in the end, if lots of people complain about stuff, they eventually leave the game, and take the potential buying power with them.
I for one like a game that poses a challenge, for the moment i gave up gw2 for example because the game is waaaay to easy and unfortunately that makes me leave the game!
on the other side, i like a challenge when it is moderately fair, what happened to the raider ai in the beta was just frustrating, go stealth, headshot a raider, kill it, then stealth again...then surprise, every raider knew where u are, they just waited for u to come out of stealth, they did not attack until i came out of stealth and then attacked me, and another thing, they had smg's and i had sniper rifle, they had the same precision as i did, and even tho i got farther away from them they still managed to hit me with the smg's at impossible ranges :) it was more frustrating than hard, for example i like the challenge the guy with the thing on his back poses (where u have to should a thing on their back). But giving mobs super accuracy and invisibility detection is a "not to do" in a game.
Imo if the game is too easy, it just makes it more boring in the long run and eventually instead of the people who complained about the game being too challenging, the people that reached the end game and got bored are going to leave, and the ones that get bored are a bit harder to get back then the ones that think the game is too hard. U can ask for help if there is a challenging situation, not much u can do if u got bored of the game.
Easy mode is dependent on the skill level of the player. An mmo can not cater to one specific group or play style, they would lose out on so many demographics.
Either way this game will most likely see a lot of difficulty adjustments.
Shooters require a lot of fine tuning to not make all enemies aimbots but still make them an actual challance.
The enemies I faced within the beta appeared to be quite stupid, but I#m confident that Trion will adjust the difficulty as time passes on.
I found the difficulty to fluctuate in the game and the only way I beat some missions was to push forward and die so very much "Hell of a Day" I am looking at you. I lost a lot of scrip but I ended up making it back. There is no durability mechanism in the gear that I noticed. Death had no penalty beyond losing money and running back to the mission. I liked the story side of it but I don't believe that is enough that will keep me as long as I thought playing this game would have when I started to look into it unless the release version is practically a new game.
Beyond "OMG I just died a dozen times I don't want to do that again" I had no sense of accomplishment from the mission since I just had to waddle through it slowly and take out the baddies with each life.
the hardcore element in shooters be it fps or mmo comes not in pve elements but in pvp.... defaince pvp takes skill and so does firefall pvp... pve is just for everybody to enjoy... only the serious and the hardcore have what it takes to pvp... and i dont mind that at all. let the pve be easy so everyone can enjoy it. if u want to test ur metal go pvp
I sent in quite a few comments about missions. Well when you got a message pop up after every mission you did. It is all subjective, as stated before. some might be easy for this person, but be hard as hell for the next one. Ones that I personaly thought were too easy I made comments about. Those being further into the game, when you head to the next zone, so to speak. I noticed too that after a few patches, some weren't so easy anymore. So I feel that they have a pretty decent balance over all. They also seemed to beef up the difficulty over all in the last patch. I got my arse handed to me on a few occasions that I had no problems with before.
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Originally Posted by Xyr3s
only? lol id love to know how many times you've died in pve in defiance, probably a large count haha, pve takes skill too, so tired of people basing their gaming skills off of pvp only all the time. a game is not made of dieing and then respawning 3 seconds later, only to rush in and do it all over again for 30 mins to an hour at a time. if you call that playing a video game then idk, taste the rainbow
I agree.. I would actually want it to be more difficult than the BetaQuote:
Originally Posted by Kevin0101
I also remember 2 hour raid prep times for a 15 minute fight...Quote:
Originally Posted by Amonkira
I do love EQ as the franchise been my favorite (I still have 2 paid subscriptions active ATM for EQ2), but the complication and multitasking level is a different requirement than for a shooter imo. Why in a shooter would you need to focus so much on the things you need to focus on with a trinity based game. Shooters yet team oriented and focused no doubt, but not the same critter for multitasking.
I like a challenge, but challenge doesn't mean "hard" just to be hard. Or time sinks. A lot of those death penalties are time sinks to make the game last longer along with large overland travel etc...
I don't want filler time to slow me down just make it seem more difficult. There are plenty of hard games that fill my elitism out there that I enjoy, I don't need another personally. I think this game offers challenging content that is completable by all ranges of shooter experience. the only thing that makes it "easy" against the AI is that you see the red dots. They change their dirrections and will flank you, but you can see the red dot so it's not a surprise is the only "dumbed down" ish part about the AI I'd say.
edit* and I totally lost my ability for clarity right after I grinded 4 hours for it because of death on my chanter lol.. yes the "sweet" memories.
+1 for not sissifying the game just to make it more appealing to people who cant hold their own.
even in beta i found myself all to often being annoyed by people who joined co-op only to have to go afk for 5 min as soon as they got in. its a sci-fi game, it SHOULD require some thinking and some skill, NOT just some **** riding.
Totally agree, people are already complaining about the difficulty of the game in the alpha forums and the game's already pretty easy to be honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin0101
at the very beginning it seemed to easy with A.I not registering the fact you were shooting them at the start on the tutorial , but as nmy ego increased i noiced the A.I got better and the fights much more intense, it seems quite balanced on the beta .
the larger arkfalls are nuts
If you snipe and kill and AI and the other AI are not facing him, no aggrro, but if any of them are facing him, proximity doesn't matter they will notice you just Iced their guy and aggro.
Never any shortage of e-peen on forums, rofl! IMO, the pve in this game should be carefully balanced to be accessible and enjoyable by a broad pie slice of the population. This game is being marketed to folks who watch Defiance on TV. If the game is so convoluted and difficult that it appeals to "hardcore shooter veterans" then it will fail in the general population, which is a vastly larger audience and customer base.
As someone posted here, pvp is the place where difficulty will naturally rise.
Want to make pve more challenging? Every player had the power to do so... by picking a weapon that creates that challenge. Every player always has this option in order to raise the difficulty.
Overall, I hope the design team is savvy enough to make Defiance appeal to a lot of people.
they will, and i promise you they arent going to just cater to pvp'rs thats not their main interest here. its a part of the puzzle, but its def not their main focus. i can tell you now that story is their main focus, which has been stated hundreds of timesQuote:
Originally Posted by Goes To Show
How much can the story keep people around? The casual market is just that, casual. They may play every now and then for a few hours a week. We can only judge how well the game has done after 3 months. Check daily the number of unique users that play, how high is it on the most played list for XBL and PSN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush
So it is a tough place for any company to be in. Appear the larger base that may be interested *now* but abandon the game for the next new shiny toy or try to make the game enjoyable to those who enjoy a harder difficulty. If it is so easy and your more "hardcore" players left because of it and then your "Casual" players leave because something else attracted their attention then when does the company have to show for it?
AND HERE WE GO AGAIN, ANOTHER CONSOLE/PC WAR, when are yall just gonna leave it alone, its almost as if the customer base is fighting for development input rights lmao
your not factoring in the pc audience in any of your speech here so sit the F downQuote:
Originally Posted by TheShiningLily
frankly i could care less lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Rush
Why are you talking to yourself?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush
I mean, I do it too but....I just enjoy the intelligent conversation.
It still holds it was general to the entire games population. When there are more games out on the market to choose from. Hawken, Dust, etc. And not to mention whatever comes out on the console in the future. Its a matter of what shows in your characters progress "I accomplished this, got this" I love the story of Defiance and plan to play it for as long as I am able to before even I get bored since there is nothing to really show for it beyond a deeper understanding of the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush