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Some Reasons for Lag and what might help

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  • 08-29-2013, 06:03 PM
    Indra Echo
    Some Reasons for Lag and what might help
    This is in regards to consoles-I have both the xbox and ps3 versions.

    I downloaded the patch for the xbox sometime ago, but just got around to doing so for the ps3 and here's an observation. I had Firefox and my email program running while downloading as well as another computer connected via wifi to my rounter. My PS3 is connected via wifi too. Just shutting down the email program doubled my download speed.

    So consider these things when playing the game.

    Things that contribute to lag:
    A slow connection (duh, obviously right).
    The use of a wifi connection. Wired is better.
    Other devices using your connection-you only have so much bandwidth.
    Devices we all sometimes forget are connected to our wifi--smart phones, tablets, laptops, ereaders, and even our TVs.
    Also, desktop PCs lately tend to have wifi built in themselves so they may be using the wifi too, but even if not when they are on and online, they are using up precious bandwidth.
    And on the PC, if you have an internet browser running, it may be constantly accessing ads or other things that do download something to you and use that connection.
    Your PC may also have apps that are running that may be polling the internet from time to time and may cause a drop in the connection speed for your console.
    Tablets and smartphones may also be updating things and often do so only when connected to wifi.


    Timeouts can occur when these things happen-say you do have an email program running or a browser or an app. Each of these things may be automatically and routinely accessing the internet, using your bandwidth. So when they do this your connection speed may slow way down temporarily. Enough to kick you from the game, but not enough to totally dump you offline.

    Getting into phase with specific people or going into groups and joining friends. Online games rely on matchmaking-they try to assess connections and put together random people who have similar ones so as to reduce the possibility of lag. Joining friends overrides the best choices matchmaking would like to make. It happens in other games as well-lag is almost always worse when you join a friend's game.

    Busy times. Hard to avoid. And we all play when it's convenient for us to play. But those times may not be the best times. Some of our internet connections will slow way down when others in our area that have the same service are all using it at the same time. You can test this and see if it's true for you by trying out a time that might be less busy in your area. It's counter-intuitive but sometimes you can have less lag with someone halfway around the world than you can with a friend down the street.


    In game things that cause lag:
    Vehicles-the more vehicles and the bigger the vehicle, the more the lag. Test this yourself with your clan or get together a group of friends. ATVs cause the least lag. The Titan causes the most. The Raptor with 4 people in it causes a lot of lag.

    BMGs-lag and more lag and even more lag. The more BMGs going off at once, the worse the lag. At best if this lag hits you, you end up with a blue aura that won't go away. At worst, you lag out, but you can have medium effects where there's a BMG stream that follows you everywhere and/or you cannot do anything at an event. You can't switch weapons or shoot or things happen very slowly. People hover in mid-air and at times you can shoot and then you can't. You can't get ammo. And the arkfall never seems to end-wait 20 minutes after it is over and others say it is, and then it may end for you too.

    Detonators and other explosive weapons-these cause sometimes instant high lag that can instantly lag you out. As with anything, the more of these the worse the lag.

    Volge LMG-not as severe but similar to the BMG.


    All of these things have a tendency to lag out people who are not using them-they can lag out the user, but often they will lag out a whole lot of people who are not using them. The Raptor is an exception because it can often lag out passengers.

    Busy phases. It might help to log out and log back in to see if you can get into a different phase that's not as busy and might be less laggy.


    There are other things, of course. Lag is inherent in online gaming and in larger persistent worlds. A solution might well have been to segment the world into smaller bits but that would have meant we'd continually hit loading screens. Also, a lot of dynamic things going on at once cause it as well-plants, clouds, all kinds of moving parts. Great to look at but far more complex than a static environment.

    Lag is such a big part of what's wrong and causes the timeouts-I've really tried to look at some of the causes of it with an eye to maybe helping others to minimize it (can't remove it) in their games.
  • 08-29-2013, 06:06 PM
    dramaQkarri
    Why don't you just go apply for a job at Trion already?
    fanboy
  • 08-29-2013, 06:12 PM
    ichiro071
    When I am on the NA server I can not play I have delays of 45 seconds or more. However I go and play on the EU server and Defiance runs smooth as silk. The problems right now are 100% Trion.
  • 08-29-2013, 06:17 PM
    Xaearth
    Ah... the good old days of online gaming...
    When you could just blame client-side lag issues on "pr0n"... :o
  • 08-30-2013, 05:02 AM
    Indra Echo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dramaQkarri View Post
    Why don't you just go apply for a job at Trion already?
    fanboy

    Very helpful. I never said lag didn't come from other things as well. I could be just as immature and ask what game company you work for that is a competitor of Trion's-but I believe you are just somone unhappy with the game. And I am just someone who is generally happier with the game. I'm seriously trying to help some people minimize the lag they're experiencing on consoles, especially the xbox where I've noticed it's worse. I've listed things I've noticed in the game, and from over 30 years of gaming. You can wallow in bad lag or try to reduce it or go enjoy a laggy game made by some other company-your choice.

    And for the poster who has no problems on the EU servers-again, I said sometimes lag can be due to odd things and it can be easier to play with less lag with people halfway across the globe than those right next door. The EU servers have never been as busy as the NA ones. I played PS3 NA last night and had less lag. The PS3 servers have never been as busy as the xbox ones. Xbox NA sold more games than the other platforms and it's likely there is more lag due to more people playing.

    I've also played other games that were online and owned EU and NA copies and in those games, there were times when the EU servers would be laggy and other times when the NA ones were. In one game where the servers were global, I'd often have random matches made with Japanese players with no lag at all, but if I played with someone closer to home, we both had bad lag.

    Also, then if it's all Trion's fault, the lag I experience when playing other games is their devs' fault as well and never due to our connections--then, I will let them know I want my money back, they are the worst companies making the worst games, they should be sued, and all that too. Lag is always partly caused by our connections. Some of it is due to our hardware, the consoles as well.

    I never said it wasn't also partly due or couldn't be fixed by some things Trion could do. In fact, one of the things I think they might do is look into how 3d models have been created. The cars, for one thing. If I walk through a car, I can see the interior of the car. That might be totally extraneous. The cars probably cause more lag in part due to this. It likely exists in order for people to be able to ride in the car, but maybe they could reduce the detail within the vehicles. The Monolith-it could have been created with fewer moving parts. That thing that pops out at the end of each stage might have been more static-and doesn't need to flop around.

    The EGO boost-the cores next to them don't really need to have so many different jagged surfaces (nor does any core)-they all might actually be less complex and even look better if they were merely more simple geometric shapes. And there's no real reason for 4 EGO boosts by each core.

    The debris walls at arkfalls could be less complex as well - the ones at the Dark Matter arkfalls really look like bad wallpaper. Colorful, but all the different color creates more complexity and more lag.
  • 08-30-2013, 06:02 AM
    Indra Echo
    The other things that really affects consoles are dust and heat. If you sit down and play any game for long periods of time, heat will build up because the cases on consoles (and the internal fans) don't dissipate the heat very well.

    Consoles also have a lot of heat sensitive things in very close proximity - like a laptop and you should know laptops get very hot. Companies make and sell all kinds of things to help reduce laptop heat. Heat affects memory and memory handling-poor memory handling causes lag. Heat also affects processors and processing speed.

    If you are experiencing a lot of lag-consider just where your console is located, how hot your house is, and look at the dust on it. Feel it and see how hot it is.
  • 08-30-2013, 06:42 AM
    mic soul
    don't see how people are lagging on pc because i can live stream and not lag at all
  • 08-30-2013, 06:48 AM
    IGears
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mic soul View Post
    don't see how people are lagging on pc because i can live stream and not lag at all

    The only lag i get is in the Arenas.. cant killed the stupid Golden Skiltterling with it lag hopping across the map. :(
  • 08-30-2013, 06:54 AM
    Indra Echo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mic soul View Post
    don't see how people are lagging on pc because i can live stream and not lag at all

    Yeah, I don't know what lag is like on the PC-I've only played on PS3 and xbox. Xbox has way more lag at times than the PS3, but it's more noticeable in some phases than in others and way more noticeable if I'm in a phase with friends. Even if I am not in the same location as my friends, I am more likely to have lag or time out if my friends and I are in the same phase--when I've joined their phase, joined a friend.

    I just do know that I've played Mass Effect 1-3 on all 3 platforms and I experienced graphics errors, slow rendering, frame rate drops, and all of that in SP mode on the consoles that was not present on the PC. And in MP mode for ME3, I experienced sometimes crippling lag on both consoles that was never present on the PC. I also experienced (never got fixed) problems between the PS3 version's in game store and the PSN store. I'd either get kicked from the group I was in or have to quit the game and restart because I'd be stuck in the store. And it was never easy to join friend in the PS3's version. Sometimes, I'd wait for long times and just never get into the group.

    I never had these issues on the PC, even when Fraps was running in the background.
  • 08-30-2013, 06:57 AM
    August Barkley
    It's a shame that the owners of the consoles have to limit yourself in something to avoid lags. On the other hand ... The main reason for the lags on the console - it's console itself.

    Whatever it was, it's quite useful article for the owners of consoles.
  • 08-30-2013, 07:08 AM
    Indra Echo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by August Barkley View Post
    It's a shame that the owners of the consoles have to limit yourself in something to avoid lags. On the other hand ... The main reason for the lags on the console - it's console itself.

    Whatever it was, it's quite useful article for the owners of consoles.

    Thanks for that.

    I do love consoles but I think we all have to just face it-they're more of a convenience and require a lot more compromise or workarounds than we'd like to admit. It's due to PCs often ending up in corner spaces or bedrooms or offices and consoles being front and center in living rooms for the family sometimes to play with.

    It would have been better if console makers had more gone with upgradeability (comparable to PCs but even more modular with room for expansion and new devices). But that goes against their business models. And in fact MS (ok I like xboxes too) seems to be going backwards with the One not having a removable hard drive-maybe you can add an external one if needed. The PS3s was removable (very easy) and the PS4 is going to have a removable one too. But the processors, ram, and other things maybe should be upgradeable as well. It's likely that each new version of a console's system software (the OS) uses more of its resources but we can't upgrade our systems to make allowances for that.

    And it's also not always that easy to back up or restore your system if something becomes corrupted, so people don't often do maintenance on them that they will do on a PC. So system software should be more friendly and allow for more options-that people won't be afraid will delete their data or their accounts.
  • 08-30-2013, 07:15 AM
    N3gativeCr33p
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Indra Echo View Post
    The PS3s was removable (very easy) and the PS4 is going to have a removable one too. But the processors, ram, and other things maybe should be upgradeable as well.

    Indeed... swapping my PS3's old 60gb HDD with a newer 500gb HDD was about as easy as expanding the RAM in a Nintendo 64 back in the day. Also, I agree with other parts in a console being upgradeable... but I just don't see it ever happening.
  • 08-30-2013, 07:20 AM
    Indra Echo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by N3gativeCr33p View Post
    Indeed... swapping my PS3's old 60gb HDD with a newer 500gb HDD was about as easy as expanding the RAM in a Nintendo 64 back in the day. Also, I agree with other parts in a console being upgradeable... but I just don't see it ever happening.

    I agree-it's far easier to create the same device repeatedly for a set number of years and then release the new and improved version sometime later. Consoles are actually considered to be rather disposable devices.
  • 08-30-2013, 07:41 AM
    drackiller
    I just want to ad one more (or more) thing to this discussion.
    Yes the consoles have limitations, like every thing, it has pros and cons and Indra already pointed most of it. Being an owner of the PS3 since day one , i had one 60 GB, replaced by another 60 GB that was also replaced for another 60 GB, and now i have a Slim 160 GB with an HDD of 250GB.
    Since day one that i have my PS3 wired, well ventilated, always clean, etc, i`m very careful with my things. None the less they break anyway.
    In relation to DEFIANCE we must agree that the problem is more from the part of TRION that from us, because they didn`t have in consideration the limitatons of the actual hardware both from PS3 and XBOX.
    The PS3 has a known problem of lack of RAM memory, and a major issue is that the PS3 can`t dump the memory while in use, the buffer if it has one is limitid if existent.
    Another important thing, the network card of the PS3 is pure crap, probably low standard material. I have a pretty good conection and i have bad scores at speed tests.
    One more thing, it is important the NAT type to play should be at minimum NAT2, this means that it is firewalled but with doors open, so no problem here, but the best would be NAT1 meaning no firewall.
    That is my case, i have NAT1 because i have 1 door in my router in bridge mode, still i have bad speeds in tests on my PS3.
    But i have friends that say they can achieve high speed tests...my sincere opinion is that, like i already said, the PS3 network card is bad.
  • 08-30-2013, 08:04 AM
    Indra Echo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by drackiller View Post
    I just want to ad one more (or more) thing to this discussion.
    Yes the consoles have limitations, like every thing, it has pros and cons and Indra already pointed most of it. Being an owner of the PS3 since day one , i had one 60 GB, replaced by another 60 GB that was also replaced for another 60 GB, and now i have a Slim 160 GB with an HDD of 250GB.
    Since day one that i have my PS3 wired, well ventilated, always clean, etc, i`m very careful with my things. None the less they break anyway.
    In relation to DEFIANCE we must agree that the problem is more from the part of TRION that from us, because they didn`t have in consideration the limitatons of the actual hardware both from PS3 and XBOX.
    The PS3 has a known problem of lack of RAM memory, and a major issue is that the PS3 can`t dump the memory while in use, the buffer if it has one is limitid if existent.
    Another important thing, the network card of the PS3 is pure crap, probably low standard material. I have a pretty good conection and i have bad scores at speed tests.
    One more thing, it is important the NAT type to play should be at minimum NAT2, this means that it is firewalled but with doors open, so no problem here, but the best would be NAT1 meaning no firewall.
    That is my case, i have NAT1 because i have 1 door in my router in bridge mode, still i have bad speeds in tests on my PS3.
    But i have friends that say they can achieve high speed tests...my sincere opinion is that, like i already said, the PS3 network card is bad.


    Yes, that's quite true. It's sort of the issue that it does go back to any game dev if they are selling a product that is not made well for the infrastructure (hardware) that it runs on. Case in point is Bethesda games, especially on the PS3. Skyrim's DLC debacle revealed the fact that Bethesda has not been optimizing their games for the PS3-all along even in Oblivion, they'd give us workarounds to try and minimize the memory use of our machines but it still bricked PS3s.

    I'd say the memory handling of the PS3 works well if it's programmed for-like in the uncharted or killzone games or RFoM games. But when games are not optimized for the system they're on, problems that might exist get worse. Just like Android has the appkiller (created by others because Android was notorious for not closing down programs or background processes), and PCs have Task Manager, console makers should include something that allows users to close unneeded processes and programs.

    Here's another memory hog that I've found. It's different for both systems but may have the same effect-downloading items from the store. On the PS3, you can purchase and then background download things. Theoretically, you can start playing a game and the download will maybe pause while you play but often it will keep downloading. You can pause it in download manager, but that doesn't help as much as you'd think. Because that's a process that is still running-it's in memory.

    Same with the xbox-I'm not sure there's an easy way to pause downloads but they do auto-pause if you start playing a game. But they're holding that download process in memory.

    And it's not just the PS3's network card that's bad. It's very likely the xbox's is as well. I've had far more trouble with it regarding it even seeing my network (when using wifi) than I've ever had with my PS3. And it's not just me having that issue. In my family (at different locations) most of us have the PS3 and the xbox (even some wiis too). And unless wired, the xbox can have some real network issues. If you go offline temporarily it may refuse to connect and require a restart.

    But my PS3 does have worse speed tests than the xbox at times. Even so, the lag on it is far less than on the xbox, depending on the game.
  • 08-30-2013, 08:12 AM
    Indra Echo
    Just so it's not lost-initiating downloads and then starting up a game also uses memory.
    As does media sharing and other links to our PCs.
  • 08-30-2013, 08:21 AM
    Justified
    Good points in this thread. However, my ps3 is wired and while I'm playing, no one else is using the internet connection and I still time out. I was in an arkfall last night that barely had any players and I knew I was about to time out because everything started to render really slowly. I would agree that the game isn't optimized for the ps3. I can play Killzone 3 all night and not get disconnected while downloading a movie at 1.3mb/s.
  • 08-30-2013, 09:28 AM
    Indra Echo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Justified View Post
    Good points in this thread. However, my ps3 is wired and while I'm playing, no one else is using the internet connection and I still time out. I was in an arkfall last night that barely had any players and I knew I was about to time out because everything started to render really slowly. I would agree that the game isn't optimized for the ps3. I can play Killzone 3 all night and not get disconnected while downloading a movie at 1.3mb/s.

    Yes, I understand. I do think as I said problems that occur in all games may well be more due to cross platform attempts. Instead of optimizing a game for the platform, games are ports. I believe from my experiences that games that are exclusive to the PS3 seem to have the least problems of all. K3 does not do any of this, no Resistance game did, nor have the Uncharted games, but every CoD game for the PS3 has been buggy, laggy, and freezes my PS3 at times. Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout 3, and New Vegas-freezes and so on. Mass Effect 1-3, same. MP for ME3 is laggy. And that's when I have nothing going on in the background and have turned off all notifications, turned off media sharing and all that.

    I'm in complete agreement with you on this.

    Just created this thread so that people can try and rule out the most common things that are sometimes overlooked. But then here's the thing-I can't replicate the problems you had. As a player. I played last night too and was in some busy and some less busy phases. My cousin was using an iPad and wifi at the time. My PC was on and my connection to both my PC and the PS3 was wifi. The only bad lag I had was when I started up my email program and when it polled for email.

    I don't know what to make of that because as you said, you had nothing using your resources and I had a lot of things using mine-you had bad lag. I didn't. And I actually have a pretty crappy DSL service where I am-a lot of noise on the line and service disconnects at higher speeds. At one point they intentionally slowed down our service in order to reduce the DCs and noise. It's the only service other than satellite in my area and we're at the far end of the range for this service-which the phone tech said would make it even slower at peak times. Totally true-I could set my watch by it.
  • 08-30-2013, 10:01 AM
    ItISLupus
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dramaQkarri View Post
    Why don't you just go apply for a job at Trion already?
    fanboy

    ......Seriously????
  • 08-30-2013, 10:18 AM
    uncharted territory
    Other considerations ( I'm rushed in writing this so forgive spelling and grammar mistakes )

    *Always* use a wired connection because:
    - Wireless is susceptible to noise and the signal will desegregate over distance.
    - Wireless encryption will slow down processing at both the router and your console. (You should be using some type of encryption for your wireless network)

    * NAT was mentioned and is Router related, not Firewall. If you have a router between your device and your Internet provider, you will have NAT 2. Hardware Firewalls are not a problem, but if possible, allow traffic through the gaming ports to go through unfiltered.

    * Some routers allow you to give priority traffic to a specific IP. If you have a router with multiple devices, give your console high priority.

    * Both cable and DSL have problems with peak usage. DSL more so (someone already noted ). With DSL, the wires are not twisted pair making EMI/RFI a big problem. Look around on google for ways to improve the signal.

    It would be cool to figure out which server the console was connected to and run a trace route from the PC to confirm if there was a problem from the Internet provider too.
  • 08-30-2013, 10:27 AM
    DarknessEyes PT
    Didn't read all, but i close all programs, don't use anti virus, wired connection with 24mb speed and been lagging ALOTS in past few days.
  • 08-30-2013, 10:27 AM
    Murzin
    wifi is not ready for mass use.

    it really is not.

    /network engineer mode on:

    when you see people talk about standards and speeds, you will hear people say 54 mbps for wifi and that sounds good. you wont ever see 54 mbps transfer speeds. the normal speed is 30-31 mbps.

    and that is if your device is close ( within 5 feet ) of your wireless router. go to different rooms and you will see it drop to 20-25 or even lower, especially if there are like metal pipes in the walls or a lot of wiring.

    now, they also have what are called "channels" which is best to think of as lanes on a freeway.

    there are 11 lanes on this freeway, and you do not want to use a channel next to anyone elses. if your neighbor is using 5, you do not want to use 4, 5, or 6. now on this freeway, if you are the only one on that lane, you get to go up to theoretically 54 mph. as soon as a 2nd device ( car ) gets in your lane, you are limited to half, or 27 mph for each. add a third, and you dont get 1/3 of the 54, you get 1/4. add a 4th device, and you are still limited to the 13 mph.

    this is why dual antenna setups for home routers were made. with 2 antennas, you can use 2 of those lanes not just 1, but unless your device has dual antennas, it can only use 1 lane at a time. ( note: this is why the kindle is really good and can actually stream true HD is it supports and has dual antenna in it whereas most devices do not ). but it allows your router to have more connections without losing as much speed.

    the more wireless devices you use, the slower everyone elses connection is. dual antenna routers help this issue, but most people do not buy them as they are more expensive.

    and to stream HD requires 41 mbps throughput. as noted above, the average single antenna provides a throughput of 30-31, while you THINK you are streaming full on HD, you are not.
  • 08-30-2013, 12:55 PM
    Indra Echo
    The thing about wifi though is it is really quirky, IMO. Someone noted that the further away from your router the more degraded the signal and that means if going through walls and stuff--it will degrade even further. True, but...I once bought a laptop (not too long ago), and it would never connect to the wifi even while fairly close to the router--maybe 6 feet away. But if you took it into a bedroom 20 or more feet away and of course behind walls, it would consistently connect right away.

    I can only assume (though I live in the country and not too close to neighbors) that something was interfering with the wifi signal in the room where the router is, but moving it away from that room moved it away from the interference.
  • 08-30-2013, 01:01 PM
    Indra Echo
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DarknessEyes PT View Post
    Didn't read all, but i close all programs, don't use anti virus, wired connection with 24mb speed and been lagging ALOTS in past few days.

    IIRC, you are on the PC EU right? Are the servers there run by Trion or Namco Bandai? If Namco, then well you have my deepest sympathy. I know NB is distributing the game and any digital content but I don't know what else they're doing. I have said before that I do have a friend in the industry (not at all related to anything having to do with this game-but console as well as a big name dev) and his opinion is NB is basically well not worth much. I also know that distribution-wise they have real problems with supply -- from personal experience.

    They talk a good talk and let's just say I know for a fact they don't often provide much support of the paid kind (as in employees) to their users. The people that often help on forums are um volunteers who never hear from NB at all.

    I'm not saying this is all Namco Bandai's fault or anything but I'm just saying they don't have the best track record. The problem is they are the one company that seems able to provide such services to many countries.


    As far as lag on PCs well there might be a lot of reasons (and yes it might be the game or the servers in use), but this was more about consoles because that's all I have experience with for this game-and I have tried to see what all can affect lag.
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