Attn Developers: Please expain limited use grenades. Will we lose our Orange Grenades

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

This grenade issue is the tipping point for me.

As yet they have not addressed the horrid inventory interface issue. They have not addressed the glut of Volge emergencies with zero rewards. They have not addressed diminished loot drops for a lot of foes or changed ones for others. They have not addressed the glut of white weapon drops near EGO 5000. They have not addressed the lack of desire for many to even get past level 2000. They have not addressed the desire for real story content, new map areas, new really new content.

What they have announced are more arkfalls and a change to grenade mechanics. Along with things to apparently boost your EGO, HP, and maybe ammo and stuff. Nothing new and more like changes to old stuff. This is the tipping point for me.

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Agreeing with you 110%.

I don't think it's the fact that Grenadegate brought up concern from the player base about grenade mechanics in the future. What it did was shove a stinking pile of discontent, and mismanagement in our face that couldn't be addressed by anyone on Trion's team to this day.

I still don't know how grenade mechanics will work. There are way too many variables unknown. We've expressed ourselves more than enough on the topic, and as of right now the only thing I know with any certainty is that grenades will be consumable and replenish able at some vendor or by drops.

Having said that, at least 10 very important points have been brought up by the players and we will more than likely roll over and take it because.. "Awww Trion, you're sooo cute with the way you play hard to get". Feeling kind of like an abused spouse in this relationship.

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Originally Posted by Zugo

Having said that, at least 10 very important points have been brought up by the players and we will more than likely roll over and take it because.. "Awww Trion, you're sooo cute with the way you play hard to get". Feeling kind of like an abused spouse in this relationship.

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Not me... I'll just move on to playing something else, if DLC2 is less than average. ;)

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Originally Posted by Slyfox2001

Think about the above quote. Why would anyone say such ridiculous things? Inventory too cluttered, scrip sink, etc. Really? These are ridiculous reasons for such a drastic change. Me thinks that one would say these things if they HAD to change the grenades and how they work but didn't want to give us the ACTUAL reasons why.

Perhaps in order to get the new spikes and stuff to work, they had to change the way grenades function. Well, assume for a minute this is true.

If they said, "Hey, with the new stuff we are bringing, it's going to mess up your grenades and the way they work... We apologize." <---- That makes it their bad as developers (incompetent to push code that doesn't break existing functionality).

But if they say, "Hey, we 'evaluated' grenades based off of our own internal metrics and have found them wanting; they clutter your inventory, you can't throw them properly, etc. etc. etc. so we will bring about this new awesome change to fix it for you before you realize that there was ever really a problem. We rule." <------ That makes it good for them. They've fixed a problem, right? (Meh)

See the difference here? I think they jacked something up, can't get it all to mesh properly, so they come up with ridiculous reasons that it NEEDS to be changed.

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I agree. One of my big grenade issues is that pyros have not been fixed. They may work for some or most people, but then a lot of people don't use them. It also can be a random changing problem and sometimes is more related to zero det time pyros. I used to use that exclusively-it helped me track foes with tick damage. I didn't use them even for their base damage-I used them for tracking. Now, if I do I can't count on them to do any damage even if I hit a foe directly with them. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

I'm suspicious that part of the reason is in order to avoid fixing random or even constant issues that some grenades have. If I am always using pyros right now and they're not working all the time then it would help the devs if I'm forced to use other types a lot of the time instead of this non-working type. It also would make it more difficult to see that any grenade is having issues.

It means I'd be using a pyro more randomly so random problems would be less likely to occur.

I may not be explaining this well, but I do agree with you-I don't feel like we got a real answer at all. Mostly because it all sounds so ridiculous and never once touches upon one thing I've ever heard anyone complain about or want.

I agree with you and think there's something fubared here-I'm not sure which it is, current random issues with grenades (you missed the target instead of the grenades just are not working), or incoming clutter, real lag-inducing clutter.

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Originally Posted by Zugo

Agreeing with you 110%.

I don't think it's the fact that Grenadegate brought up concern from the player base about grenade mechanics in the future. What it did was shove a stinking pile of discontent, and mismanagement in our face that couldn't be addressed by anyone on Trion's team to this day.

I still don't know how grenade mechanics will work. There are way too many variables unknown. We've expressed ourselves more than enough on the topic, and as of right now the only thing I know with any certainty is that grenades will be consumable and replenish able at some vendor or by drops.

Having said that, at least 10 very important points have been brought up by the players and we will more than likely roll over and take it because.. "Awww Trion, you're sooo cute with the way you play hard to get". Feeling kind of like an abused spouse in this relationship.

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I'm sort of getting the idea of how they'll work-not there 100% but enough to be certain that no matter how you acquire the grenades at an event, it will add to lag.

I know enough to know they have not given me one valid reason for making this change.

I know enough to know it will cripple some events, not the least of which is content in DLC1-Arenas, DM arkfalls, and Volge sieges.

I know enough to know they have yet to address what will happen to grenades in our inventory-if the idea is that we needed to reduce clutter caused by grenades in our inventory (really, really that's A reason), then logic tells us that means grenades will move out of our inventory. That leads me to believe grenades will no longer be a tradeable item. As yet there is no indication as to how new grenade types for more permanent useage (the smart loot placeholder) will be acquired.

What I mean is, if I have only green grenades (I don't they seem to say they won't be in my inventory but the game knows I "own" them) and I want an orange one--how do I get it? If it is not taking up room in my inventory, then it makes no sense that buying a lock box will ever net me one. It seems I shouldn't be able to buy one from someone. And there's nothing that says I will ever get one as a reward. Also, those random grenade loot drops on the ground-what does that mean? Will we have the option to keep a grenade type that we get as loot? It does not seem so, since those are not smart grenade loot drops.

At this point this all seems like some child came up with this idea. It doesn't seem to have been that well thought out and the explanation is just crazy. Just when it seems to make some sense, not that I like it anyway, it leads to more questions. And it's about what? Stupid freaking grenades.

Sad to see you go due to bad community leaders!
Thank you for bringing this to our attention !
Will gladly pass on the word and point people to this thread!
GS

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

I'm sort of getting the idea of how they'll work-not there 100% but enough to be certain that no matter how you acquire the grenades at an event, it will add to lag.

I know enough to know they have not given me one valid reason for making this change.

I know enough to know it will cripple some events, not the least of which is content in DLC1-Arenas, DM arkfalls, and Volge sieges.

I know enough to know they have yet to address what will happen to grenades in our inventory-if the idea is that we needed to reduce clutter caused by grenades in our inventory (really, really that's A reason), then logic tells us that means grenades will move out of our inventory. That leads me to believe grenades will no longer be a tradeable item. As yet there is no indication as to how new grenade types for more permanent useage (the smart loot placeholder) will be acquired.

What I mean is, if I have only green grenades (I don't they seem to say they won't be in my inventory but the game knows I "own" them) and I want an orange one--how do I get it? If it is not taking up room in my inventory, then it makes no sense that buying a lock box will ever net me one. It seems I shouldn't be able to buy one from someone. And there's nothing that says I will ever get one as a reward. Also, those random grenade loot drops on the ground-what does that mean? Will we have the option to keep a grenade type that we get as loot? It does not seem so, since those are not smart grenade loot drops.

At this point this all seems like some child came up with this idea. It doesn't seem to have been that well thought out and the explanation is just crazy. Just when it seems to make some sense, not that I like it anyway, it leads to more questions. And it's about what? Stupid freaking grenades.

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That's why I was leaning towards the idea that if you want an orange or level 5 grenade you would need to purchase that level of ammo(wait can't call it that, oh well) from the vendor. Everyone basically has the same stats for the individual grenade types, but you need to purchase the different grenade tiers at different prices.

Something like:
white = 100Scrip (1X damage)
green = 200Scrip (1.5X damage)
Blue = 400Scrip (2X damage)
purple = 800Scrip (2.5X damage)
orange = 1600Scrip (3X damage)

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

I know enough to know they have yet to address what will happen to grenades in our inventory-if the idea is that we needed to reduce clutter caused by grenades in our inventory (really, really that's A reason), then logic tells us that means grenades will move out of our inventory. That leads me to believe grenades will no longer be a tradeable item. As yet there is no indication as to how new grenade types for more permanent useage (the smart loot placeholder) will be acquired.

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You misunderstood Trick.

His argument was that people didn't use other grenades because they had no reason to and they just took the best damaging or utility grenade they had and trashed the rest (which only cluttered up the inventory from the time they were picked up to the time they were trashed).

The idea that they would want to reduce the amount of inventory clutter is absurd - inventory is most likely their best selling bit-store item.

Instead they're making those new grenades not be clutter by forcing us to have multiple grenades to fall back on if we run out of our preferred grenade, in turn increasing the amount of inventory they hope we'll be using to store grenades, not to mention stims and spikes which, if you read carefully in Trick's posts, will work much the same way (as stacks in the inventory that can be refilled).

just my opinion but...

I really do not think the grenade itself will be consumed
that would make no sense at all.

more then likely they will have an ammo pool much like our weapons and with a faster cooldown
it will be easier to use them more often in pvp/pve.
making the actual grenade consumable I really doubt it I think what they meant
in the pax stream was that once you "run out of ammo" for a specific grenade
you will Have to Change to another type and Another Ammo pool (I.E. switching from frag to pyro)

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Originally Posted by SSlarg

just my opinion but...

I really do not think the grenade itself will be consumed
that would make no sense at all.

more then likely they will have an ammo pool much like our weapons and with a faster cooldown
it will be easier to use them more often in pvp/pve.
making the actual grenade consumable I really doubt it I think what they meant
in the pax stream was that once you "run out of ammo" for a specific grenade
you will Have to Change to another type and Another Ammo pool (I.E. switching from frag to pyro)

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You missed Trick's post in this thread at the end of page 23.

Not to say you're wrong on the "losing the grenade" side, or that you're that far off, but you're missing info as well.

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Originally Posted by Xaearth

You misunderstood Trick.

His argument was that people didn't use other grenades because they had no reason to and they just took the best damaging or utility grenade they had and trashed the rest (which only cluttered up the inventory from the time they were picked up to the time they were trashed).

The idea that they would want to reduce the amount of inventory clutter is absurd - inventory is most likely their best selling bit-store item.

Instead they're making those new grenades not be clutter by forcing us to have multiple grenades to fall back on if we run out of our preferred grenade, in turn increasing the amount of inventory they hope we'll be using to store grenades, not to mention stims and spikes which, if you read carefully in Trick's posts, will work much the same way (as stacks in the inventory that can be refilled).

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People didn't use other grenades because they didn't want to. WTF? Are they going to push other weapons on people the same way? Shields? Perks? Makes no friggin' sense.

And grenades taking inventory space. Not sure I'm really understanding this. I have grenades that I use, a few of them. They take inventory space. I have guns, a few of them. They take inventory space. I get crap guns to be sold/broken down. Takes inventory space. I get crap grenades to be sold/broken down. Takes inventory space.

What am I missing here? Hell, I get more crap shields taking up space than anything else! I dunno... none of this really makes any logical sense to me. Maybe I am illogical.

Sooooo..... any word on this either?
Too many pages to read.

I am guessing not

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Originally Posted by Zugo

That's why I was leaning towards the idea that if you want an orange or level 5 grenade you would need to purchase that level of ammo(wait can't call it that, oh well) from the vendor. Everyone basically has the same stats for the individual grenade types, but you need to purchase the different grenade tiers at different prices.

Something like:
white = 100Scrip (1X damage)
green = 200Scrip (1.5X damage)
Blue = 400Scrip (2X damage)
purple = 800Scrip (2.5X damage)
orange = 1600Scrip (3X damage)

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Might be so. I just have this overwhelming disgust for the whole thing and a suspicion like others that we're being treated like fools here when the intent is to get us to use our scrip, so we need more scrip, and we'll buy more boosts. If so, then they really do need to fold up this game and call it a day.

Here's the thing--I have no doubt had they made some new cool area, say an underground city, that people would gladly use scrip to pay for a ticket to transportation to the city. They could have created this in segments, small areas like coop zones, but with shopkeepers that sold say, new outfits that you could get for large amounts of scrip or that you could enter in a trade of loot with--the game would allow the AI to agree to or reject the trade. These items could also be purchased with bits.

The vendors could also sell weapon upgrades (not mods) but things like new random bonus rolls for scrip or same as for outfits.

This would encourage people to buy scrip boosts and maybe loot boosts. Furthermore, I'd create a bunch of these areas that have different things-vehicle upgrades as well. And then make some of them only available at certain levels. I'd also have some of them be random conflict areas--so you get to one and it's empty except for mutants trying to take over, or Volge looking for a weapon cache or Raiders trying to steal scrip. You can enter them alone or in a group and may end up fighting or buying. If you fight and win, you get the stuff the foes were looking for.

This type of thing could also be used as a trade house for players. You have to pay some scrip for transportation to it-then put stuff up for sale or trade or buy things there.

This is one suggestion about how they actually could encourage boosts and the use of real money, create a new area, create new content, appeal to higher level play, encourage trade-not just with people but with the AI, and so on. But grenades, no thank you.

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Originally Posted by Xaearth

You misunderstood Trick.

His argument was that people didn't use other grenades because they had no reason to and they just took the best damaging or utility grenade they had and trashed the rest (which only cluttered up the inventory from the time they were picked up to the time they were trashed).

The idea that they would want to reduce the amount of inventory clutter is absurd - inventory is most likely their best selling bit-store item.

Instead they're making those new grenades not be clutter by forcing us to have multiple grenades to fall back on if we run out of our preferred grenade, in turn increasing the amount of inventory they hope we'll be using to store grenades, not to mention stims and spikes which, if you read carefully in Trick's posts, will work much the same way (as stacks in the inventory that can be refilled).

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Maybe I did misunderstand but I fail to see how adding to inventory reduces clutter. If I misunderstood it is because he used a lot of convoluted statements instead of speaking plainly. If this increases stuff in my inventory, then the statement that our inventories were too cluttered has no bearing.

And I am fine determining the amount and nature of the clutter I will accept in my inventory-the help I need from the is not in doing that for me, but in actually fixing the inventory interface. That will encourage buying, not them deciding how best to change grenades (the things I have the least of) in order to alleviate my clutter.

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

Might be so. I just have this overwhelming disgust for the whole thing and a suspicion like others that we're being treated like fools here when the intent is to get us to use our scrip, so we need more scrip, and we'll buy more boosts. If so, then they really do need to fold up this game and call it a day.

Here's the thing--I have no doubt had they made some new cool area, say an underground city, that people would gladly use scrip to pay for a ticket to transportation to the city. They could have created this in segments, small areas like coop zones, but with shopkeepers that sold say, new outfits that you could get for large amounts of scrip or that you could enter in a trade of loot with--the game would allow the AI to agree to or reject the trade. These items could also be purchased with bits.

The vendors could also sell weapon upgrades (not mods) but things like new random bonus rolls for scrip or same as for outfits.

This would encourage people to buy scrip boosts and maybe loot boosts. Furthermore, I'd create a bunch of these areas that have different things-vehicle upgrades as well. And then make some of them only available at certain levels. I'd also have some of them be random conflict areas--so you get to one and it's empty except for mutants trying to take over, or Volge looking for a weapon cache or Raiders trying to steal scrip. You can enter them alone or in a group and may end up fighting or buying. If you fight and win, you get the stuff the foes were looking for.

This type of thing could also be used as a trade house for players. You have to pay some scrip for transportation to it-then put stuff up for sale or trade or buy things there.

This is one suggestion about how they actually could encourage boosts and the use of real money, create a new area, create new content, appeal to higher level play, encourage trade-not just with people but with the AI, and so on. But grenades, no thank you.

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Hey! Hey you! Yeah, you over there! Quite saying cool stuff that would be neat that I'll never see in this game! You can take your ideas and you can just get outta 'er!

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Originally Posted by Slyfox2001

People didn't use other grenades because they didn't want to. WTF? Are they going to push other weapons on people the same way? Shields? Perks? Makes no friggin' sense.

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To be fair, they already do for weapons. Or did you forget that you stop earning skill XP once you master a weapon?

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Originally Posted by Slyfox2001

And grenades taking inventory space. Not sure I'm really understanding this. I have grenades that I use, a few of them. They take inventory space. I have guns, a few of them. They take inventory space. I get crap guns to be sold/broken down. Takes inventory space. I get crap grenades to be sold/broken down. Takes inventory space.

What am I missing here? Hell, I get more crap shields taking up space than anything else! I dunno... none of this really makes any logical sense to me. Maybe I am illogical.

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The point is, when was the last time you picked up a grenade and thought "This is bad ***, I'm gonna use this later." instead of "Meh... more crap to break down."?

The thought is, even if you get crap grenades, it's one more crap grenade to use if your good one runs out before you make it back to the vendor to restock.

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Originally Posted by TrickDempsey

When we changed the grenades to being consumable, we did so to address a variety of issues.

Grenade Identity

The variety of the grenades in game lacked identity. Due to the four axis variability of each grenade mod, many of the rarer mods were not an actual improvement over the lower rarity mods. The only axis which provided significant benefit to our players was damage. (And duration for flashbang, pyro, and bio grenades.) This created a deeply negative experience for players when looting higher-tier grenades, and generally cluttered and already cumbersome inventory. By focusing on grenade identity, we are able to guarantee that each type of grenade is distinct and each rarity an improvement.

Snipped

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I never said this was the major point of his whole post but it is one thing he cites-our inventories are too cluttered with grenades. I have never seen anyone post that grenades were cluttering up their inventories. The inventory is not cumbersome due to grenades-it is cumbersome because they refuse to make it cleaner and more efficient. All they have to do is look at other games and see how it's done. It's been suggested forever that this needs to happen. I get pretty ticked off at this kind of mention because it's pretty ridiculous. If he's not talking about grenades causing clutter then I'd please like this translated for me.

And if they wanted grenades to be unique then how about working on the grenades and not this treasure hunt to get more stacks of them.

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Originally Posted by Xaearth

To be fair, they already do for weapons. Or did you forget that you stop earning skill XP once you master a weapon?



The point is, when was the last time you picked up a grenade and thought "This is bad ***, I'm gonna use this later." instead of "Meh... more crap to break down."?

The thought is, even if you get crap grenades, it's one more crap grenade to use if your good one runs out before you make it back to the vendor to restock.

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1) Reset weapon mastery.
2) Again, why? Why this, why now, why at all? Makes no sense. Do it for weapons too then. Charge us for "ammo."

If they want us to pick something up and not go, "Meh, absolute crap," make it so that either there are far less loot drops but the ones that do drop are waaaay better than currently, more scrip (in higher doses, not piles), and more ark salvage (again, doses) drop to alleviate all of that.

The higher level the ego, the way better chance of not getting some crap white with crap stuff and more purples with good rolls. Maybe a loot drop happens once every 20 kills, but that drop makes you go, "YES!" Instead of 6 piles of 2 scrip, make it 3 piles of 200 scrip. Instead of 8 piles of 200 ark salvage, make it 6 piles of 1000 ark salvage. Smell what I'm stepping in?

Make the drops actually mean something.

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

Maybe I did misunderstand but I fail to see how adding to inventory reduces clutter. If I misunderstood it is because he used a lot of convoluted statements instead of speaking plainly. If this increases stuff in my inventory, then the statement that our inventories were too cluttered has no bearing.

And I am fine determining the amount and nature of the clutter I will accept in my inventory-the help I need from the is not in doing that for me, but in actually fixing the inventory interface. That will encourage buying, not them deciding how best to change grenades (the things I have the least of) in order to alleviate my clutter.

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There's only one place that he mentions clutter in his post.

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Originally Posted by TrickDempsey

Grenade Identity

The variety of the grenades in game lacked identity. Due to the four axis variability of each grenade mod, many of the rarer mods were not an actual improvement over the lower rarity mods. The only axis which provided significant benefit to our players was damage. (And duration for flashbang, pyro, and bio grenades.) This created a deeply negative experience for players when looting higher-tier grenades, and generally cluttered and already cumbersome inventory. By focusing on grenade identity, we are able to guarantee that each type of grenade is distinct and each rarity an improvement.

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Notice (pay particular attention to the occurrence described in the previous two sentences he references with "This") he's referring directly to looting grenades that are higher-tier but less desirable than the grenade the player currently owns.

Barring other changes to grenade generation and stats (which, considering they're completely changing how grenades are generated by throwing "Smart Loot" into the mix, are likely going to happen), the changes to consumable stacks of grenades means even looting a grenade which is sub-par to your current one is still a grenade you could potentially end up using... assuming you bother switching it into your loadout when you run out of your main grenade.

In other words, without making any other changes to sub-par grenades, they already made them "useful" if only marginally (and with plenty of headaches). Assuming the possibility of further tweaks to grenade stats for newly spawned grenades, and they might even be less groan-worthy.

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Originally Posted by Xaearth

To be fair, they already do for weapons. Or did you forget that you stop earning skill XP once you master a weapon?



The point is, when was the last time you picked up a grenade and thought "This is bad ***, I'm gonna use this later." instead of "Meh... more crap to break down."?

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His point is, they could just as easily decide the next thing to do is make it so your shield that you like breaks and you have to find either a smart loot shield or use any old crap shield you can find. Or your AR that you worked to level up and master will run out of ammo, so you have to use whatever gun you find on the ground or hope for a smart loot ammo drop that refills AR ammo. All because reasons.

The thought is, even if you get crap grenades, it's one more crap grenade to use if your good one runs out before you make it back to the vendor to restock.

But a lot of people are actually glad to get even crap grenades and SELL them. Create things that people actually want to spend scrip on-don't just create new ways to buy old stuff or increase the cost of stuff.

I don't want to be throwing crap grenades just because that's all I can find-and believe me this will be the case more often than not if you're even lucky enough to overcome lag and see the grenades. The real issue here is what will be reduced in order to make up for the need to be able to pick up more grenades and only grenades and to keep lag at a barely manageable state?

If this is even in part directed at limiting how many crap grenades we are picking up and being disgusted by-how does this change that? We scrap them because we don't like them and don't want to use them. So, now we are being forced to use them? And this is great content for DLC?

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Originally Posted by Xaearth

There's only one place that he mentions clutter in his post.



Notice (pay particular attention to the occurrence described in the previous two sentences he references with "This") he's referring directly to looting grenades that are higher-tier but less desirable than the grenade the player currently owns.

Barring other changes to grenade generation and stats (which, considering they're completely changing how grenades are generated by throwing "Smart Loot" into the mix, are likely going to happen), the changes to consumable stacks of grenades means even looting a grenade which is sub-par to your current one is still a grenade you could potentially end up using... assuming you bother switching it into your loadout when you run out of your main grenade.

In other words, without making any other changes to sub-par grenades, they already made them "useful" if only marginally (and with plenty of headaches). Assuming the possibility of further tweaks to grenade stats for newly spawned grenades, and they might even be less groan-worthy.

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I don't care for marginally useful grenades. Look, even if he only once mentioned clutter, he did mention it and there is nothing in any of his explanation that even touches upon anything anyone cared about. Certainly not worthy of being announced as in DLC as if it's some great new thing. It isn't. It's a re-working of something that is not fundamentally broken.

If the issue is groan-worthy meh grenades than drop better ones, don't force me to use the meh ones I like to get to sell.

This doesn't make meh grenades useful, it forces them to be used--there's a difference. The grenades I have now are quite useful and I decide when and where to use them and which to use. Even in his explanation he states something to the effect that we lack the choice or some such--no this change reduces our choice and our build strategies.

Your arguments aside (and I find them to be less than convincing, I'm sorry), none of this even touches upon some of the more important non-issues he's directed this change at. It also cannot convincingly explain promoting this in DLC.

I will again repeat-I use Infector Grenades-they aren't ever dropped nor are oranges. He said even smart loot grenade drops will not insure you get the same grenade you are trying to replenish--it is your grenade or lower. So, even smart loot is random--and we know no one ever complains about random loot from any other thing in the game, do they?

This is just what we need. People buying stuff with scrip that they grind for, thinking that will mean they'll always be sure to get a steady supply of their orange clusternova, only to keep getting green ones. Great.

And again as for the Infector Grenade-he has yet to explain it at all. He has yet to address how any of this will affect lag, arenas, barely playable now arkfalls and sieges. All because apparently they want people to get some use out of grenades they find on the ground instead of instantly scrapping them. And other stuff. DLC should be for new stuff not new ways to complicate old stuff and new ways to do old stuff.



I'm sorry--I love this game. I've defended a lot of stuff in it. I've been patient. I've suffered crap in the game and smiled because it was still fun. I've found things I like to use and try other things. I have fundamentally broken pyro grenades (but it's because players miss their targets). I have over 400 inventory slots that are only usable on one character and it's one long list of stuff that I can barely get through (my mistake)-people have all but begged them to fix this.

I have found a workaround for timeouts on the xbox that mostly works to be able to get back into the game and the right phase when I'm lagged out of events-but I'm extremely frustrated when it doesn't work.

I've lived with having to send in multiple support tickets over different issues from missing stuff to not getting credit for pursuits. I've lived through having to do stuff for Echelon contracts 4x what it calls for because the game will not give me credit for them. I've done all pursuits up to DLC1. I'm at level 4700. I've worked hard to over come my disgust at being lagged out of Sieges at 14000 points, 17685 points, 18954 points, and finally persevered and got over 22000 only to get crap (green) rewards. I've dealt with bugged hotshots that ended when I was 50 points away from gold, for no reason at all. I've done the Dodge Challenge so many times (in one weekend went from 7-20 for the vehicle) just because I wanted the cars and because the thing was so badly flawed and finally succeeded.

I've done a lot of things this game seems to not want to let me do.

I've acquired hundreds of lockboxes and lived with all the greens and blues and guess what sometimes even whites I've gotten from them and not complained.

If there's one thing that has always worked decently for me in this game, it's that Infector Grenade I keep ranting about. I worked to get that too. And now they want me to give that up too or have to grind more scrip in order to maybe randomly be able to use it. They can go suck eggs.

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Originally Posted by Xaearth

There's only one place that he mentions clutter in his post.



Notice (pay particular attention to the occurrence described in the previous two sentences he references with "This") he's referring directly to looting grenades that are higher-tier but less desirable than the grenade the player currently owns.

Barring other changes to grenade generation and stats (which, considering they're completely changing how grenades are generated by throwing "Smart Loot" into the mix, are likely going to happen), the changes to consumable stacks of grenades means even looting a grenade which is sub-par to your current one is still a grenade you could potentially end up using... assuming you bother switching it into your loadout when you run out of your main grenade.

In other words, without making any other changes to sub-par grenades, they already made them "useful" if only marginally (and with plenty of headaches). Assuming the possibility of further tweaks to grenade stats for newly spawned grenades, and they might even be less groan-worthy.

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The way I would use grenades in this scenario:

Throw my highest rank, most desireable grenade once. Then wait for another to drop so that I don't have to use crappy grenades I don't care for.

If you relate this to guns, since they are both from the DPS line of equipment. It would be like forcing me to use a nano fragger shotgun at a siege when what I want to use is my surge bolter.

I still find it rather hilarious that ANYONE thinks switching the grenade in your loadout on the fly is something that can actually be done.

LOL

Have you played this game?

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Originally Posted by Zugo

The way I would use grenades in this scenario:

Throw my highest rank, most desireable grenade once. Then wait for another to drop so that I don't have to use crappy grenades I don't care for.

If you relate this to guns, since they are both from the DPS line of equipment. It would be like forcing me to use a nano fragger shotgun at a siege when what I want to use is my surge bolter.

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You have to use the smart loot drop thing to have a chance at getting the same grenade. And even that is not guaranteed. Smart loot is for the same grenade or lower-I'm thinking we're way more likely to get "lower".


"Now, for clarification on some issues. “Grenade ammo” is not a thing. When a person picks up an uncommon frag grenade loot, they will get a stack of 3 uncommon frag grenades added to their inventory. If they pick up an Orange bio grenade drop, they will get three orange bio grenades added. “Smart Loot” ensures that players will primarily see drops of things they already have of the same rarity they have or lower. Essentially, players who don’t want to spend money to refill grenade stacks will rely on the luck of the drops to refill the grenades that they have in their inventory."

The only sure way to get more of the grenade you have is to buy more. I can't possibly think of anyone who'd complain about this.

No, you don't lose your orange grenade but the only sure way you have of using it is to make sure to buy more useage rights at a vendor.

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

I don't care for marginally useful grenades. Look, even if he only once mentioned clutter, he did mention it and there is nothing in any of his explanation that even touches upon anything anyone cared about. Certainly not worthy of being announced as in DLC as if it's some great new thing. It isn't. It's a re-working of something that is not fundamentally broken.

If the issue is groan-worthy meh grenades than drop better ones, don't force me to use the meh ones I like to get to sell.

This doesn't make meh grenades useful, it forces them to be used--there's a difference. The grenades I have now are quite useful and I decide when and where to use them and which to use. Even in his explanation he states something to the effect that we lack the choice or some such--no this change reduces our choice and our build strategies.

Your arguments aside (and I find them to be less than convincing, I'm sorry), none of this even touches upon some of the more important non-issues he's directed this change at. It also cannot convincingly explain promoting this in DLC.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending or promoting the changes. I'm just trying to keep people as informed with the limited information we have, as well as offering explanations other than insanity and incompetence for the changes. After all, once you've accepted that the dev team is totally insane and/or incompetent, there's really no reason to hope things will change for the better.

I'm not exactly thrilled about the changes either. But I find the premise and potential of stims and spikes to be interesting. Will I be disappointed? Probably. But we don't have enough information about stims and spikes to judge them, and, right now it looks to be a package deal with the grenade changes.

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

I will again repeat-I use Infector Grenades-they aren't ever dropped nor are oranges. He said even smart loot grenade drops will not insure you get the same grenade you are trying to replenish--it is your grenade or lower. So, even smart loot is random--and we know no one ever complains about random loot from any other thing in the game, do they?

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As far as your specific case of the Infector Grenade, I believe the stream did show that, at least on their test build, Infector Grenades were getting refilled - remember Greg was using them specifically.

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

You have to use the smart loot drop thing to have a chance at getting the same grenade. And even that is not guaranteed. Smart loot is for the same grenade or lower-I'm thinking we're way more likely to get "lower".

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So, hundreds of white, and green frag grenades while I wait for an orange? Why is called smart loot?

Adding to the list of questions under GrenadeGate:
Question: Do I have a higher chance at a orange grenade drop if I'm using an orange grenade?
Answer: How many licks to the center of a....

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Originally Posted by Overtkill21

I still find it rather hilarious that ANYONE thinks switching the grenade in your loadout on the fly is something that can actually be done.

LOL

Have you played this game?

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It can't be and if done, will be one more complaint generator.

They expect us to be happy with random crap dropped on the ground or smart loot that does not guarantee we'll get the same grenade we have, or better yet, that we'll be happy to buy from vendors just to be sure we can still use our prized grenades. It's dumb. And most of it will still create more lag.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xaearth

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending or promoting the changes. I'm just trying to keep people as informed with the limited information we have, as well as offering explanations other than insanity and incompetence for the changes. After all, once you've accepted that the dev team is totally insane and/or incompetent, there's really no reason to hope things will change for the better.

I'm not exactly thrilled about the changes either. But I find the premise and potential of stims and spikes to be interesting. Will I be disappointed? Probably. But we don't have enough information about stims and spikes to judge them, and, right now it looks to be a package deal with the grenade changes.



As far as your specific case of the Infector Grenade, I believe the stream did show that, at least on their test build, Infector Grenades were getting refilled - remember Greg was using them specifically.

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I know you're not and I understand your intent and appreciate it.

As for my specific case (but it's not the only nor the most important one), Trick has yet to speak about this-Infector Grenades don't now drop. Will they drop in this DLC? I don't know and yet if they did-he'd just have to say that. It wouldn't fix this or help because they'd still be random or less random drops, but it was simple enough for him to answer. It does though relate to other rarer grenades-how random or certain are the drops? With all due respect he showed a dev test game. I know you know this.

Relate that to the statements about smart loot and vendor purchases-right now I am guaranteed the use of this grenade in this loadout. This change would force me to grind for scrip (using grenades to do so) in order to buy stacks to be sure to have grenades I like and for the different load outs I may have-such as bios for Arenas.

In the demo, it's very likely he had a supply of them and was not running out and not trying to get more from drops or even smart drops. Even if he was-it's not a real world test and if I like the Infector Grenade I want to be sure I can use it-I have grenade refresh bonuses on equipped weapons and that's why I use them.

They've not answered this-the synergy for grenadier nor the grenade refresh bonus question.

And what it all still boils down to is a lag creator, complaint generator for no good reason that resonates with fans-and not great DLC content. I know you know this too. I just don't think Trick's "reasons" make sense or even matter. I think if you strip away all the fluff used to explain this, the reason is clear--scrip and money use.

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

It can't be and if done, will be one more complaint generator.

They expect us to be happy with random crap dropped on the ground or smart loot that does not guarantee we'll get the same grenade we have, or better yet, that we'll be happy to buy from vendors just to be sure we can still use our prized grenades. It's dumb. And most of it will still create more lag.

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My clanmate and I decided to test run the grenade switch last night...we tried it during a few Sieges, CoOps, and Arkfalls and were NEVER able to successfully change grenades without either:

a. completely disconnecting (the most likely scenario),
b. waiting for greater than a minute (and in a few Sieges we were 2-manning getting horribly molested by the Volge in the process), or
c. just waiting till we gave up and returned to the game; without an HUD or reticle or course.

The only place we were able to do it in a timely manner was when there was no action, say standing at the vendor. LOL

Someone with a green grenade will, more than likely, find their teir grenade drop mire often than someone with an orange. I can't play a game that punishes the player using an orange grenade. First we're punished for high ego ratings and now higher teir grenades. When are they going to announce the improvements for high ego players?

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

...They've not answered this-the synergy for grenadier nor the grenade refresh bonus question...

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They won't ever answer this because until one of us brought it up they hadn't even thought about it. How about the grenade perks like Mad Bomber?

They'll institute this change, break the Grenadier synergy, 15% Grenade rolls, and Grenadier shields and then when we create threads to illuminate the problem for them they'll tell us nothing so we'll bump the threads to try to get their attention...then when we do we'll get threatened.

I have to say I am starting to agree with Greezy up there.

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Originally Posted by Xaearth

You missed Trick's post in this thread at the end of page 23.

Not to say you're wrong on the "losing the grenade" side, or that you're that far off, but you're missing info as well.

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The first two sentences in Trick's post:
One quick clarification, grenade stacks which reach zero will remain in your inventory. You can go to most vendors and refill those stacks for a fee.

That means that a grenade that is used up does not get consumed. It is simply unusable until you get more ammo for it. It just may be that ammo type will not be simply "pyro" or "frag" or whatever, but will be the rarity.

Trion,

This experience with changing the Grenade system is not working. Outcry from experienced players is explaining why. Please take the time to listen, we have listed many reasons why this currently proposed system is faulty.

*The graphical lag issues caused by a large increase in Grenade use
*The menu navigation difficulties during high population Seiges/Arkfalls
*The frustration of repeatedly entering menus to change grenades.
*The devaluation of high rarity Grenades
*The devaluation of high rarity guns with Grenadier synergy
*The damage to the Grenadier synergy and Grenade related Perks as a whole

Players have suggested multiple reasons why these changes are bad for the game in its current status. Other players have suggested alternative changes to the system that may be equal to or better than your planned changes. Please take the time to review these ideas before bullrushing into a change you may not need to take, nor is wanted by your community.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by melkathi

The first two sentences in Trick's post:
One quick clarification, grenade stacks which reach zero will remain in your inventory. You can go to most vendors and refill those stacks for a fee.

That means that a grenade that is used up does not get consumed. It is simply unusable until you get more ammo for it. It just may be that ammo type will not be simply "pyro" or "frag" or whatever, but will be the specific type of "cluster frag <random number string>" and rarity.

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Erm... you didn't read the post I quoted.

It was someone speculating as to what you just said. And, like I said, he/she wasn't wrong, but didn't have all the information from Trick's post.

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Originally Posted by Samhael

Someone with a green grenade will, more than likely, find their teir grenade drop mire often than someone with an orange. I can't play a game that punishes the player using an orange grenade. First we're punished for high ego ratings and now higher teir grenades. When are they going to announce the improvements for high ego players?

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At the same time though, as "smart loot" adjust drop chances to what you already have, someone who has an orange grenade pre-DLC2, will have a higher chance to find further orange grenades, while someone with green grenades will have a reduced chance to get blues or rarer.
At least that is how I understand smart loot:“Smart Loot” ensures that players will primarily see drops of things they already have of the same rarity they have or lower

Quote:

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Originally Posted by melkathi

At the same time though, as "smart loot" adjust drop chances to what you already have, someone who has an orange grenade pre-DLC2, will have a higher chance to find further orange grenades, while someone with green grenades will have a reduced chance to get blues or rarer.
At least that is how I understand smart loot:“Smart Loot” ensures that players will primarily see drops of things they already have of the same rarity they have or lower

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Someone with green grenades would never get anything higher than green: "...of the same rarity they have or lower."

As to the "primarily" part, well, could be taken multiple ways, but that's how I take that statement.

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Originally Posted by Overtkill21

I still find it rather hilarious that ANYONE thinks switching the grenade in your loadout on the fly is something that can actually be done.

LOL

Have you played this game?

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If I try to go into my menu at an arkfall, siege, etc. - there is a better than average chance that I disconnect. To quote an official post - that creates a "deeply negative experience" for me.

And please answer my (and many others) questions about grenadier synergy and grenade bonus rolls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Overtkill21

They won't ever answer this because until one of us brought it up they hadn't even thought about it. How about the grenade perks like Mad Bomber?

They'll institute this change, break the Grenadier synergy, 15% Grenade rolls, and Grenadier shields and then when we create threads to illuminate the problem for them they'll tell us nothing so we'll bump the threads to try to get their attention...then when we do we'll get threatened.

I have to say I am starting to agree with Greezy up there.

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I think you are 100% correct on this!

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Originally Posted by Slyfox2001

Someone with green grenades would never get anything higher than green: "...of the same rarity they have or lower."

As to the "primarily" part, well, could be taken multiple ways, but that's how I take that statement.

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Yes yes...but I would need orange grenades to drop to replenish my grenades or am I wrong?

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Originally Posted by Samhael

Yes yes...but I would need orange grenades to drop to replenish my grenades or am I wrong?

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My guess:

You have Orange Grenade Crappy-Pop equipped. You have 3 "charges."

You go to an arkfall and throw all 3 grenades. You have "0 charges" of Orange Grenade Crappy-Pop.

Two mobs drop "grenade loot." One drops a Green Grenade Sucky-Suk. The other drops a Blue Grenade Crappy-Pop.

If you grab the Green Grenade Sucky-Suk, then you essentially have a different type of grenade than you did before at "green" quality. If you grab the Blue Grenade Crappy-Pop, then you have the same grenade you did before but at a lesser "blue" quality.

Maybe you get lucky and another mob drops an Orange Grenade Crappy-Pop for you to replenish your initial grenade, both in EXACT quality and type. If not, you venture to a Vendor and buy a replenishment for Orange Grenade Crappy-Pop.

Again, my guess. Hope that helps.

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Originally Posted by Slyfox2001

My guess:

You have Orange Grenade Crappy-Pop equipped. You have 3 "charges."

You go to an arkfall and throw all 3 grenades. You have "0 charges" of Orange Grenade Crappy-Pop.

Two mobs drop "grenade loot." One drops a Green Grenade Sucky-Suk. The other drops a Blue Grenade Crappy-Pop.

If you grab the Green Grenade Sucky-Suk, then you essentially have a different type of grenade than you did before at "green" quality. If you grab the Blue Grenade Crappy-Pop, then you have the same grenade you did before but at a lesser "blue" quality.

Maybe you get lucky and another mob drops an Orange Grenade Crappy-Pop for you to replenish your initial grenade, both in EXACT quality and type. If not, you venture to a Vendor and buy a replenishment for Orange Grenade Crappy-Pop.

Again, my guess. Hope that helps.

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From what I saw on the twitch feed, the grenade "recharges" are not based on the RARITY of the grenade, but on the grenade type.. frag.. bio.. fire.. cluster It didn't look like "oh man, I need grenade refills, but there's a purple for a grenade I haven't picked up yet?!?!" but more like "hey, I need to refill my orange cluster grenade.. ahh.. there's a cluster refill! Sweet!"

I honestly think that's what people are freaking out about. I think the drop rates for getting those ORIGINAL Oranges are going to be the same, but the grenade refills are based on the TYPE of the grenade.. NOT ON THE RARITY. In that way, it won't be like hunting for a needle in a haystack. Your orange frag grenade, my purple frag grenade, and Smeegel's white frag grenade can all be recharged from the exact same refill drop. Its all good homies.. everyone can relax :)