We know the game, WHY WON'T ANYONE LISTEN TO US?

I have a serious question for everyone.
We invest so many hours of our lives into this and other video games, We come onto forum sites on which We talk about the games that We play and how they can be or might be improved upon.
We get infuriated when no one seems to listen to what We have to say and yet We continue to pour our time and our lives into this endeavour.
Take....uh.....well, "Defiance", for example.
We spend hours playing the game, exploring everything. We try each and every weapon in every concievable combination, try all of the perk builds, get every vehicle, explore each and every inch of the maps that are available to us and then We break through the boundaries and go to places that We aren't meant to go. We travel on top of the Stratocarrier, We get on top of buildings in downtown San Francisco, We exploit every possible angle and every possible glitch to go everywhere and do EVERYTHING!
We come onto this forum site and then We tell each other about it all: how to do it, where to do it, what to combine, where to shoot the hulker, how to jump and cannonball and how to get an easy gold on the chicken hotshot or whatever.
I think that We know this game.
We know what We want,
We know what We need,
We know what We like.
Why won't anyone listen to US?
That is my question.

they are devs not gamers
you see how many times overlordut goes down in a demo and he fires up god mode

Because they don't care.

Did the gods listen to mortals?

I swear sometimes it seems they are actively trying to kill off their own game. Doing a good job at it too as far as I can tell. Ps3 servers are super dead lately even at prime times.

Trion needs to NERF themselves instead of our weapons because in the end they claim they are gamers just like us, but gamers would not ruin a awesome game like they are doing now.

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Originally Posted by A s0t

they are devs not gamers
you see how many times overlordut goes down in a demo and he fires up god mode

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Overloadut isnt a dev. He's a community team manager that deals with the media stuffs etc. He mostly only plays Defiance when he's got to do said demos or discussions and plays other things in his free time(I mean who blames em, right? :P).

Only time Ive seen him do the "god mode" was Pax. SDCC sledgehammer70 did the godmode stuff. Otherwise he's just played normal like on the twitch streams.

Im not saying all this to align with em vs the state of the game/community mind you, just to clarify his role/actions seperately from those of the few devs still working on Defiance.

I think overall that folks have to start looking at what has consistently happened now for going on 5 months and ask if they're willing to endure much of the same or not.

I understand all of that, the fact that devs make games the way that they want them to be.
I don't take issue with that, honestly.
I had thought that some of the devs monitored or had a pulse on what we wanted as consumers for Defiance.
If that is the case, why oh why don't they listen to us and give us what we ask for or at least TRY and address our wishes?
Come on.
Someone has been screaming for dirtbikes since DAY ONE. There are freaking dirtbikes on the TV show.
Instead We get a four passenger bread truck that controls like a log on a river.
Just listen to us, please?

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Originally Posted by CRIXDA

I understand all of that, the fact that devs make games the way that they want them to be.
I don't take issue with that, honestly.
I had thought that some of the devs monitored or had a pulse on what we wanted as consumers for Defiance.
If that is the case, why oh why don't they listen to us and give us what we ask for or at least TRY and address our wishes?
Come on.
Someone has been screaming for dirtbikes since DAY ONE. There are freaking dirtbikes on the TV show.
Instead We get a four passenger bread truck that controls like a log on a river.
Just listen to us, please?

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Because according to glassdoor reviews from the SD outgoing folks, they've little say. Seemingly, middle and upper management dictate such.

They can listen but there is no money nor people left to do anything about it. Game failed and funding/staff has been cut to next to nothing. The end.

Understandable.
But, as KRAZY KAREN would say:
"Like, don't they even do any like, Product research or something?"
Rediculous!
Consumer research and listening to those who buy the freaking products!

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Originally Posted by CRIXDA

Understandable.
But, as KRAZY KAREN would say:
"Like, don't they even do any like, Product research or something?"
Rediculous!
Consumer research and listening to those who buy the freaking products!

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You mean like how certain political parties research and think they're going to slam dunk a win then get beaten? The term used to reflect such is an epistemic bubble. :P

Cause we are the minority.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by A s0t

they are devs not gamers
you see how many times overlordut goes down in a demo and he fires up god mode

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Oat doesn't use cheats when playing Defiance. Also, we're gamers - but that doesn't make us all pro gamers.

Let's try and troll a little less and give a bit more feedback.

To the OP: we have been collecting feedback and it's in with the team! Sometimes changes take time.

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Originally Posted by dahanese

Oat doesn't use cheats when playing Defiance. Also, we're gamers - but that doesn't make us all pro gamers.

Let's try and troll a little less and give a bit more feedback.

To the OP: we have been collecting feedback and it's in with the team! Sometimes changes take time.

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He did use dev mode during the Pax twitch presentation to forward along things during the power cord affair. That is what they were speaking to Elizabeth. Whether you wish to term it as a cheat or not isnt relevant, really though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dahanese

Oat doesn't use cheats when playing Defiance. Also, we're gamers - but that doesn't make us all pro gamers.

Let's try and troll a little less and give a bit more feedback.

To the OP: we have been collecting feedback and it's in with the team! Sometimes changes take time.

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i know the lag issues are on going but please fix the lag, can you guys give us options to turn off ego voice, make everyone general steve, turn off the effects of other players, go back to the hit enter to type for chat (chat box is fine). once in a while come play Defiance on the xbox or the ps3. and if you go to the suggestion thread instead of that goggle thing
i love Defiance but not the single player that it is

MY Defiance must be different.I hit enter and chat window opens and i type.Now closing the chat window, thats a different fish :)

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Originally Posted by Strontium Dog

MY Defiance must be different.I hit enter and chat window opens and i type.Now closing the chat window, thats a different fish :)

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xbox na
we hit left on dpad

My 2 cents on the matter.

I'm assuming here that the content of DLC #1 was already planned before the official release of Defiance. Why? Because we just saw a lot of live content from DLC #2 last weekend, which is 2 weeks after DLC #1 release.

Also, I do remember seeing a lot of comments at the very beginning stating that Arkfalls from the game were way too different from the show and people didn't like it. They wanted to go inside crashed spaceship and loot stuff. We're getting that in DLC #2.

The first dirt bikes feedback came a bit later, so I wouldn't be surprised if they have it planned for DLC #3, or maybe even move it to DLC #2 if they feel it doable.

Dahanese,
I understand, I truly do.
I follow that it takes time for change to come about in anything, believe me.
I am a very patient person, patience is a sterling virtue and I believe that.
I am thankful that You even came into this thread and took the time to respond in any manner at all, that shows that You care about the community and the state of Defiance.
Having said that, It shows that YOU care.
What We want to see is if others care, too.
I don't mean Overload or Tyranno or web community managers.
Don't get me wrong, Dahanese - I appreciate You very much and what You do.
Honestly, I do. You are the representative of Trion to us here on the forum and the friendly face of Trion whether You want to be or not and you will have the bony finger of indignation pointed at you constantly whether you want it or not as well.
If the ideas that people give here on the forum are good ones, are ones that can be used or if YOU even think that are remotely cool,
Is it okay for YOU to tell someone how much that YOU would like to have that in the game, too?
If YOU agree?
Part of the "human touch", if You will.

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Let's try and troll a little less and give a bit more feedback.

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I think the point is we have been giving feedback here in the forums since beta, and it has largely gone unheard. Pages and pages of intelligent comments from the players "in the trenches" and yes with a lot of BS in between *guilty* But it's there.

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Originally Posted by JimmyRustler

I think the point is we have been giving feedback here in the forums since beta, and it has largely gone unheard. Pages and pages of intelligent comments from the players "in the trenches" and yes with a lot of BS in between *guilty* But it's there.

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Pretty much this. Now its just a wait and see type deal. Activity on the forums has slowed down tremendously from a couple months ago. At this point the only thing I want to see from the devs is getting a proper chat system in place, it is going on 6 months now and the game's chat system is still a joke.

If they can't handle something like that I have no hope for the rest of the game and its mechanics. Oh and before it is said, yes we did give lots of feedback about the chat system.

More often than not, with high budget games, it's more about making investors happy than the developers.
Developers have to rush/change/butcher their vision to make it more in line with what a non-gamer thinks makes a successful game.

Quick Dirty Example
How many times was PVP added in a game just because the money man thought that's what makes a game successful?
At the 11th hour, time, money and other content are sacrificed for an unessential aspect of the game that feels tacked on, because it is.

The game is judged based on it's lackluster/busted/easily hacked PVP.
Ultimately you end up with poor reviews.

If PVP were never added, the resources were pumped into the single player campaign, the game would have been amazing.
Gamers understand what we like to play, Devs understand the art they're trying to create, money guys, only care about money, no matter how counter-intuitive their ideas may be.

Our priorities aren't as important as the people with real money on the line.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GiantInMaine

I swear sometimes it seems they are actively trying to kill off their own game. Doing a good job at it too as far as I can tell. Ps3 servers are super dead lately even at prime times.

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True test is the weekend - Diablo III is in full swing (Amazon is late with my copy dangit...) and I think a lot of us PS3 MMO noobs will be jumping into it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dahanese

Let's try and troll a little less and give a bit more feedback.

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...boy_reacts.gif

imo if the players got their way then we would all have orange items sent into our 'claim items' because some of us experience lag and think they should be compensated. Along with making enemies weaker because some of us die a lot. And if players really had their way of getting anything they wanted then we would all have unlimited shields and ways to stay invisible all the time in PvP. :rolleyes:

What the players want isn't always right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nefarious

imo if the players got their way then we would all have orange items sent into our 'claim items' because some of us experience lag and think they should be compensated. Along with making enemies weaker because some of us die a lot. And if players really had their way of getting anything they wanted then we would all have unlimited shields and ways to stay invisible all the time in PvP. :rolleyes:

What the players want isn't always right.

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Wait a minute.... I get it!

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Originally Posted by CRIXDA

I have a serious question for everyone.
We invest so many hours of our lives into this and other video games, We come onto forum sites on which We talk about the games that We play and how they can be or might be improved upon.
We get infuriated when no one seems to listen to what We have to say and yet We continue to pour our time and our lives into this endeavour.
Take....uh.....well, "Defiance", for example.
We spend hours playing the game, exploring everything. We try each and every weapon in every concievable combination, try all of the perk builds, get every vehicle, explore each and every inch of the maps that are available to us and then We break through the boundaries and go to places that We aren't meant to go. We travel on top of the Stratocarrier, We get on top of buildings in downtown San Francisco, We exploit every possible angle and every possible glitch to go everywhere and do EVERYTHING!
We come onto this forum site and then We tell each other about it all: how to do it, where to do it, what to combine, where to shoot the hulker, how to jump and cannonball and how to get an easy gold on the chicken hotshot or whatever.
I think that We know this game.
We know what We want,
We know what We need,
We know what We like.
Why won't anyone listen to US?
That is my question.

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Because there is no US in any player base. Just a mixture of tons of contradicting opinions.

The problem with any forum system is that although we are vocal, we are the vocal MINORITY. Look at any Forums for an MMO. Forum users, even the most active ones, rarely make up more than 5% of the actual game population. How many devoted, daily users do we have here? 50? 100? Even if all 100 are shelling out the most brilliant, balanced and user friendly ideas to improve the game, we still equal 5% of a vastly silent voice.

It's the same illusion every time. You have a great idea. You share it and maybe some others agree. Maybe a LOT agree. Maybe even a few Moderators chime in. You feel great, thinking that you will make a difference.

At best, your idea *might* make it on to a coffee stained legal pad of someone at a company. That list *might* get browsed by someone who actually UNDERSTANDS why your ideas are on that list to begin with. But sadly, it doesn't. It might come up in a meeting with the higher ups; business men, marketing executives, investors. They won't understand it. They will only want the most basic explanation there is:

"If I give you money to add whatever this is, will it make me more money in the long run?"

Meanwhile we are back at our computers and consoles, playing a game we love despite its flaws and shortcomings. We sit hoping that all our best ideas see the light of day. We know if we just got that chance; that one great idea added or adjustment made. Perhaps hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands could wake up one morning and log in to a brighter future. The silent 95% that say nothing, and typically receive it.

1. Trion doesn't care about you or what you want.
2. Trion has no idea how to add what you want.
3. Trion doesn't care about you or what you want.
4. The new person in charge wants to keep his job the last two said they were going t9 give the fans what they wanted amd look what happened to them....gone. This new one wants to keep his job so he is a company stooge amd does what ever the new company head wants. Which is give you garbage DLC so they meet the requirements for the season passes. Whilwe holding the fan requested stuff back so they can swindle you out of your money. As soon as the 5 dlc requirement is met you will see a fan request dlc/expansion they will sell for double normal price.

Give the fans what they want.....not on my watch. Give them pale reskin a handful of missions, truck of doom minus the doom and melee weapons. Next one unknown limit on nades they refuse to elaborate on and other half assed dlc. Enjoy your prepaid dlc.

Trion customer service skills on par with Syrian Politics......the fans are gett8ng unruly. Gas em.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frozen

The problem with any forum system is that although we are vocal, we are the vocal MINORITY. Look at any Forums for an MMO. Forum users, even the most active ones, rarely make up more than 5% of the actual game population. How many devoted, daily users do we have here? 50? 100? Even if all 100 are shelling out the most brilliant, balanced and user friendly ideas to improve the game, we still equal 5% of a vastly silent voice.

It's the same illusion every time. You have a great idea. You share it and maybe some others agree. Maybe a LOT agree. Maybe even a few Moderators chime in. You feel great, thinking that you will make a difference.

At best, your idea *might* make it on to a coffee stained legal pad of someone at a company. That list *might* get browsed by someone who actually UNDERSTANDS why your ideas are on that list to begin with. But sadly, it doesn't. It might come up in a meeting with the higher ups; business men, marketing executives, investors. They won't understand it. They will only want the most basic explanation there is:

"If I give you money to add whatever this is, will it make me more money in the long run?"

Meanwhile we are back at our computers and consoles, playing a game we love despite its flaws and shortcomings. We sit hoping that all our best ideas see the light of day. We know if we just got that chance; that one great idea added or adjustment made. Perhaps hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands could wake up one morning and log in to a brighter future. The silent 95% that say nothing, and typically receive it.

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The problem with this thinking. Listening to some of your fans is still alot better then wuat Trions doing and ignoring everything. Devs want to know the true state of the game. Spend one week making random toons, join 20-30 clans and listen to them talk about your game.

Instead of listening to the small group who stroke your ego just so they can get you to c9me to their crappy net radio show. Or interview for their blog etc etc etc.

Trions method of everything is going good because this handful tells us how awesome we are doing while we stick our head in the dirt and ignore the rest of the fans because some dip**** who interviewed us all but blew us when we did his crappy net thing.

Who cares TBH. Trion has already ran this game into the dirt. So far from what I can tell from the reaction to the first DLC and whats been announced for this second DLC they dont care about turning this game around.

Hey first list that was compliled and posted on our blog na gonna ignore that ask the fans for them to go use some google thing so they can vote for features they want.....not gonna do anything with this info. Lets just give the fans the impression that we might some day do any of it. Hey nerf nades while your at it.

...Yeah...it makes me sad. The game itself has great potential, but t's just not fun anymore, it's just a chore. I sugeested alot of great things to them but nothing...I hope to god if it goes dead another Dev will pick it up and do right by the consumer. For now, looking forward to GTA V and trying out FF14 ARR < Prime example of how change is good Trion. Meh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GiantInMaine

I swear sometimes it seems they are actively trying to kill off their own game.

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This has crossed my my mind more than once, like burning down a building for insurance payout.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CRIXDA

I have a serious question for everyone.
We invest so many hours of our lives into this and other video games, We come onto forum sites on which We talk about the games that We play and how they can be or might be improved upon.
We get infuriated when no one seems to listen to what We have to say and yet We continue to pour our time and our lives into this endeavour.
Take....uh.....well, "Defiance", for example.
We spend hours playing the game, exploring everything. We try each and every weapon in every concievable combination, try all of the perk builds, get every vehicle, explore each and every inch of the maps that are available to us and then We break through the boundaries and go to places that We aren't meant to go. We travel on top of the Stratocarrier, We get on top of buildings in downtown San Francisco, We exploit every possible angle and every possible glitch to go everywhere and do EVERYTHING!
We come onto this forum site and then We tell each other about it all: how to do it, where to do it, what to combine, where to shoot the hulker, how to jump and cannonball and how to get an easy gold on the chicken hotshot or whatever.
I think that We know this game.
We know what We want,
We know what We need,
We know what We like.
Why won't anyone listen to US?
That is my question.

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Well there's listening and then there's implementing and the two are very separate things. They all have reasons for doing what they do and some things they can and cannot or will not do.

Most devs don't do active listening very well (frankly it is done here much better than for other games). Active listening is indicating that they have heard and at least partly understand what we've said. Fans think they're not listening if they don't do what fans want. That's usually the biggest problem fans and devs have. Not all fans want the same thing either.

The real truth for most games is forums don't "help" devs decide to do anything. Your money does. I've constantly stated there are games from big name devs out there that are pretty crappy-they release the same game or even a similar game time after time with the same problems that they should by now have fixed. But they won't fix them because there is no incentive to do so. And their games won't change because fans are buying the crap by the millions.

In true discussions in articles regarding games and in youtube videos big name devs have stated it's all about the money. They said that opinions on forums don't change anything-purchases do. And EA's boss said it was about the money - microtransactions and getting people to pay for bullets, as well as day one DLC, releasing content that should have been in the base game but forcing people to pay extra on release day. That's so a game that might cost $60 will get people to pay $75, $80 or more right away.

Forums for most game devs are where fan complaints go to die. Game buyers need to realize this is a business relationship-the only real thing that matters to most businesses is their fiscal bottom line. Stop rewarding companies that sell the same crap year after year (I'm guilty of this). And do vote with your money-don't accept games with poor content, poor endings, poor mechanics, or that are being released in Beta state. But also don't demand that content be released too soon-make it known that the quality matters more than the timeliness.

But the only real place to effect change is with those game companies that set these policies-other companies follow their lead. Unless the big companies (as a start) are forced to change and made to listen by us not buying what they make, nothing will happen.

This is not to say that you should not use forums to voice your complaints--but fans are their own worst enemies. Many get so enraged they cannot or will not state in a coherent way what they're mad about. They use forums just to call the game or the devs a lot of special names. They may want to like a game, but get angry about it all and instead of using their brains to explain things, they just write that anger.

Fans need to form a consumer group. We spend a lot of money on this. I think Hold The Line was trying to do this, but angry gamers and HTL even are often seen as little more than Anonymous wannabes or children. And a lot of game forums are used to permanently ignore them.

Game companies are companies and what speaks the loudest is money-that's so for any company. Trion is a small one and has tried better than most to acknowledge our complaints, but they have limited means with which to implement our wishes and they too exist with the models companies like EA and Activision have created and see that stuff brings in a lot of money. Because we've all been ignoring the anti-consumer actions of big name devs it's no wonder smaller ones want a piece of the same pie.


Consider this one example. Game devs know that very few fans finish games so they don't focus on giving them great endings. If they're crappy most will never see them anyway. Fans complained about one fairly big game's ending-and other fans thought this was stupid because no game has a great ending. Fans began returning the game so um EA/Bioware realized they had to do something-they were losing money. Fans forced them to redo the ending somewhat-not enough for a lot of fans but just enough for others. The point is, money does talk. It's just that not everything will always be done as you or I would like.

lets play movie association

Trion Boss:

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/f/...oM1911A1-6.jpg


Trion Employees:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6drXW0qy5s


Oat, never ever grow a fantastic moustache.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

This has crossed my my mind more than once, like burning down a building for insurance payout.

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The plot intended by Bialystock and Bloom to defraud lil ole ladies in Mel Brook's The Producers. Ugh, now I've got the song from that movie "Spring Time for Hitler" stuck in my head. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

This has crossed my my mind more than once, like burning down a building for insurance payout.

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The plot intended by Bialystock and Bloom to defraud lil ole ladies in Mel Brook's The Producers. Ugh, now I've got the song from that movie "Spring Time for Hitler" stuck in my head. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Billy Guile

lets play movie association

Trion Boss:




Trion Employees:



Oat, never ever grow a fantastic moustache.

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See above :P

Greg would most assuredly be Bloom. Hands down.

Billy,
You CRUSHED IT!
"Hey! Who is that guy? I don't know him!" BAM!
"Now how hard is that?"
EPIC!
That movie rules.
Very soon I fear, some fan is going to come to Trion HQ and Bucho is going to turn to them, smile and say:
"can't you see that we are FCUKING CLOSED?????"

You people DO realize that there is hardly anyone left TO implement anything? The DLC has been worked on months before launch and what did it contain? A few hour diversion... They keep wasting time and resources on PvP which:

A) Is worthless because PvP will never ever be at what the crybabies call balance until there is only 1 class, weapon and skill to use.

B) Completely ruins the main game, which is co-operative PvE because they keep nerfing everything to ****. Yeah, go hunt for loot and upgrade your guns! Do it NOW because next week, the work you put in to get the gun you wanted to function the way you wanted is worthless because we need to balance Shadow War that pops up once a day!

Defiance is another game where the devs wasted their entire dev time on trying to fix something that tiny fractions cares about and is never happy no matter what you do. Yeah, keep balancing and fixing PvP cause that's what 2% of the game is about and that should totally take priority. Nevermind the fact that there are dozens of games, similar games, which focus on PvP and do it infinitely better in the first place!

Good job Trion. I'll surely give you more money on your next game! (No, not really.)

Because most of the suggestions this community makes are garbage.

PvP should really have just been excluded from the game. Sorry if that bothers the PvP players, but you have tons of shooters on your console already to get your fix on.

The purpose of a game's forum is to educate and be educated about the game. It's not necessarily put in place for game/additional change ideas. While you can find these in every game forum, it's something the player base just kind of does on their own. Defiance actually embraces these threads, even if there is not much they can do to implement suggested changes.