Dev Update: Changing damage reduction - update!

New blog post for you guys to chew on.

http://community.defiance.com/en/201...age-reduction/

I'll also quote the blog for discussion here!

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Two weeks ago, Trick Dempsey wrote a State of the Game blog post giving a broad road map for what’s going to be happening in the world of Defiance in the coming weeks and months. Since then, the team’s been busy. Today, we’re talking about the changes that we’re making to damage reduction in Defiance.

The way Defiance works now, there are a variety of perks, weapon masteries, and shield bonuses that players can combine to make themselves temporarily invulnerable. Invulnerability, while sometimes cool, is not something that adds fun to our world (and in many cases severely detracts from said fun.)

The team went into the game, took a long, hard look at some of the math that made these combinations possible, and have changed the way the game works so that invulnerability is no longer a viable option. With this change, players can only benefit from one damage reduction source each from shields, perks, and weapons. Within these sources benefits will no longer stack; instead, the best damage resistance generated from each source is selected, then combined with the best from each of the other sources.

Here’s an example: If a player has both the Detachment perk (12% damage resist after kill) and Juggernaut perk (15% damage resistance after melee kill). Players will only have 15% damage resistance after a melee kill, not 27% due to stacking Detachment and Juggernaut. Mind, if you have the legendary weapon mastery for 12% damage reduction while reloading, and you reload after that melee kill, you’d still have a brief resistance of 27%. This could be magnified even higher by adding a shield bonus.

We also want to extend out thanks to folks in the community who worked with us to point out these exploits and were integral in our efforts of fixing this problem. Thank you for your time and your patience.

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Update! After spending time testing this update in QA through the weekend, we need more time before it goes live. Here's an update from Trick about why we're delaying:

In the interest of improving the quality of the damage reduction update, we are going to need to delay it until our next code patch. Without a code update, the damage numbers displayed when fighting another player would be inaccurate to the damage done. This would cause players to see damage done to opponents then see it quickly restore as the damage difference was transmitted from the server. By waiting until we can update the reported damage functionality, we are preventing confusion once the damage reduction update goes live.

I'm sure there are going to be some people mad about that. I like it, but you can't please everyone.

So instead of addressing the actual problem, you guys pretty much ruined more perks? that's just bloody brilliant. So essentially pve has been screwed again, thanks guys...

So when does this terrible idea go into effect?

If they would keep these kind of updates to pvp and don't add on to the main part of the game, then I'd be happy. A lot of complaints would die down if most of the nerfing updates were left in pvp only because that's were I see the weapons and perks and nades and shields get abused and it affects everyone, even the people who don't care to play player vs player. those are the true victims and until Trion stops hurting them, I will not be happy.

Not sure I agree with this change, you're going to render some of the protective perk combinations useless for PvE which is only going to make the solo missions harder for noobs and casual players. Personally I don't care, the game isn't hard enough for me, but trying to get 4 for a co-op is getting harder and harder and chasing off a segment of the population may not be the smartest move.

Just sayin...

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Originally Posted by dahanese

New blog post for you guys to chew on.

http://community.defiance.com/en/201...age-reduction/

I'll also quote the blog for discussion here!

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This is good news if this actually fixes the problem. I do have some reservations too about what this will do to PVE. However I will wait till the patch to reserve judgement . Also this also only addresses part of the problem. The other problem started on Friday was not doing anything to the blatant cheaters.

I am not talking about people occasionally glitched. Sometimes that happens like the permanent invisibility problem. Any legitimate player if you tell them that will say "Thanks" and kill themselves to get rid of it. All the players I have seen been reported were nonstop abusing exploits and throwing it everyones face.

Until recently it stated on the terms of service that knowingly exploiting glitches was a violation. Now conveniently that link goes nowhere. You can see as of now where it exploits are listed as major violation but it's a dead link.
https://support.trionworlds.com/app/...etail/a_id/992

Hmm. I'm a little nervous about this. I never pvp, but stacking those resistances feels like the only way I can survive some instances when adventuring on my own. Which, now that the entirety of my clan quit in frustration, is all the time...

I think I may become a victim of my own casualness. But I am very interested to hear what else will be in the patch. I was about to quit myself.

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Originally Posted by Arsenic_Touch

So when does this terrible idea go into effect?

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Originally Posted by dahanese

These damage reduction changes will be coming to all platforms next week in our upcoming patch.

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Posted at the bottom of the original article.

How was this a better solution than simply adding a damage resistance cap? This change does not enhance the game experience. I imagine this change was a result of complaints about PvP. However, the issues would be solved with a damage resistance cap. If damage reduction was capped at 80-85% the only way any player could achieve that was during the 3 seconds of thick skin after a shield break. The other perks would still take effect and still be worthwhile. The end result of this change is not going to have much of an impact. Especially when the issue results from glitched perks.

On some people, for whatever reason, Thick Skin can last up to 9 seconds, vice 3 as stated in the description (and what happens with most people). Combined with other perks and shield/weapon bonuses this could lead to a potential 100% damage reduction for up to 9 seconds. Fixing that bug is the key issue. Every complaint about people being invulnerable has to do with the invulnerable person receiving that benefit after their shield breaks. The only changes needed to be done are to cap damage reduction at 80-85%, and fix Thick Skin. PvE remains the same, and PvP no longer has the exploits.

This change will do nothing. Players with the glitch will still receive significantly lower damage than the rest, while doing more damage than they do now (with less defensive perks offensive perks will be stacked). The end result of this change is simply quicker engagements with the glitched player still surviving, and non-glitched players dieing faster. If anything, this change will make it easier for the glitched player as his glitched damage reduction and increased damage gives the other player, even if more skilled, less time to wittle the glitched player's health down, increasing the glitched player's chances of survival.

Please re-think this change and do not implement it yet. There has to be some way to fix the bugs in the perks and implement some sort of damage reduction cap.

No, the cap will be added to pve as well as pvp. It would still be hurting the people in pve who don't care to play pvp ever. also the update make it so they can't stack perks to your advantage.
It state that the perk that does the most damage resist will be as high as it goes minus the weapon and shield bonuses.

Sweet, back to oneshotting everyone/getting oneshot by shotguns.

*Sigh.*

The fact that it is now being addressed, as opposed to the initial plan of calling exploitation legitimate, is favorable. I'm glad to see Trion understands that invulnerability is not something you can allow to float around in the current iteration of the game.

I'm really only considering this from a PvP perspective. PvE is so incredibly easy I find perks and weapons generally irrelevant.

I cannot attest to the effectiveness of this change without actually playing with it in action, but my current feeling is not entirely favorable. While I have to say I'll be happy to see a few particular people drop into irrelevance (you know who you are, you're terrible at this game), I'm not exactly a fan of what I currently theorize will happen to the game.

Here's my current assumption based on the announcement:

• Thick Skinned now trumps every perk when activated. This means things like Cellular Armor and Detachment are only valuable when you do not have Thick Skinned active. Cellular Armor will likely remain useful. Detachment... I cannot see this being useful except in very specific situations where you are addressing two or three targets at once.
• This is going to result in less overall damage mitigation for players. That translates into lower time to kill (TTK), which may not be a favorable experience for players who are not well versed in the game. Then again, these are probably the same people who do not run perks like Thick Skinned in the first place.
• I did not read anything that actually addresses the initial problem, it reads like a band-aid fix. These players may no longer have invulnerability, but are they still going to have higher than average damage resistance? That just shifts the numbers upward, rather than address the issue of people achieving abnormal mitigation.
• This issue only happened to very specific people. Top players (at least on PC-NA) never figured out what caused it. The people abusing the bug were, to put it bluntly, pretty awful at the game. They were still able to be killed by better players, it just felt like they were unfairly gaining extra mitigation. This must be a very specific issue, so why exactly are players not able to recreate it?

I guess my main concern is this - are those same people still going to have abnormally high mitigation stats? Even if they aren't achieving invulnerability anymore, if they still take ridiculously less damage than the average player it doesn't solve the problem. As I mentioned before, I guess I'll have to wait and see what the implementation looks like before I pass judgment.

Regardless, glad to see something is happening.

A better idea would just be to add a maximum capacity to the amount of damage reduction that can be active at once. This would allow players without high quality items to compensate using perks and allow those players with high quality items to use perks for other purposes. Also note that this would allow players to maintain damage reduction over a longer period of time due to stacking damage reduction from different sources, although they would never exceed the cap. Sadly, this change is far too little, too late and, to be fair, Trion is going about this change all wrong (like usual).

EDIT: It seems that those of us who have played this game extensively agree how the changes to damage reduction should be handled.

is it going to affect pve. If so, then you still have not addressed the main problem.

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Originally Posted by hygh

If they would keep these kind of updates to pvp and don't add on to the main part of the game, then I'd be happy. A lot of complaints would die down if most of the nerfing updates were left in pvp only because that's were I see the weapons and perks and nades and shields get abused and it affects everyone, even the people who don't care to play player vs player. those are the true victims and until Trion stops hurting them, I will not be happy.

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Well worded, and I agree. I'm one of those people that don't play pvp. I miss my saws badassery.

I miss my immunizers effectiveness. The nerf made it no longer an effective anti-sniper weapon because it fires to slow to do enough damage. My friends miss the saws awesomeness too, so we are all in this together.

also thank you.

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Originally Posted by Notturno

PvE is so incredibly easy I find perks and weapons generally irrelevant.

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Good for you. Please excuse the utterly unskilled and talentless such as myself : (

I find the minor Dark Matter ark falls that I end up doing completely alone half the time virtually impossible. It's not so bad if there's at least one other person. Several of the missions have been pretty tough also, with no rhyme or reason. 'Easy, easy, easy, WTF?!, easy...'

I don't understand why this is a bad change, you're generally not in a good place if you don't hide behind stuff and pay attention. Not to mention the game needs to be harder not easier. I just hope they explain this ingame so people don't still do this because they don't read the forums or are super new.

Besides in pve I stack crit not damage reduction anyways lol.

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Originally Posted by Valentine

I don't understand why this is a bad change, you're generally not in a good place if you don't hide behind stuff and pay attention. Not to mention the game needs to be harder not easier. I just hope they explain this ingame so people don't still do this because they don't read the forums or are super new.

Besides in pve I stack crit not damage reduction anyways lol.

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It's bad because the damage reduction is only valid from a perk, shield, and weapon at a single time. This makes damage reduction perks mostly useless (similar to self-revive perks) and shifts the balance of power into the hands of players with the best equipment. In all honesty, this change makes the shield and weapon damage reduction bonus crucial while entirely undermining the importance of perks. This seems counterintuitive given how Trion reduced the requirement to unlock all 9 perk slots.

This is not the problem that players were complaining about. These are not exploits.

Stacking is an intentional effect not an exploit. It provides players incentive to EGO level so they can get cumulatively better damage reduction, damage increases, reload times, EGO duration, EGO cool down reduction, and benefit from reviving players. While I understand that essentially the entire original development team was sacked, the intentional design of stacking effects should be self-evident to anyone with nominal intelligence and experience in game design.

Unless Thick Skinned stacks as a 50% reduction and not a halving of damage after or before other damage reduction effects are applied (I have no idea how it works) it's also not possible to achieve invulnerability with EGO perks and even so the effect would only last for 3 seconds. A very simple "fix" to this "problem" would be to implement damage reduction hard caps. It's hardly rocket science and is common to many games.

Only one perk is non-situational (Cellular Armor) at 6% max. If you stay crouched you would get another 9% for Hunker Down, another 15% if you stood there like a rock in PVP from Fortified Stance and another 30% for not bothering to turn around to deal with whoever is shooting you from Rear Guard for a total of 60% damage reduction based on a PVP strategy that is full of fail.

Everything else is extremely situational with four only lasting for 3 seconds and one of those being mutually exclusive with one of the others (Feedback and Failsafe). The likelihood of getting 3 of the other effects running (if Thick Skinned doesn't stack) at the same time while standing still, tea-bagging the ground, and getting shot repeatedly in the back is not the "invulnerability" that players were complaining about as an exploit in PVP.

AFAIK only one weapon bonus reduces damage and it's situational (damage coming from behind you) and only one Synergy reduces damage and it's situational (Machinist)

Why is the development team feigning ignorance of the actual problem? What everyone has been complaining about is shield glitching so that shield recharge is constant and it's been reported to them in detail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT1GLITC9fE

This action on their part will fix absolutely nothing. All it will do is undermine incentive to EGO level and make certain perks almost pointless. I seriously urge the development team to rethink this foolish course of action. If they insist on tilting at windmills instead of addressing the actual issue I would urge them to at least consider pursuing a general damage reduction hard cap as an alternative more sensible "solution" to the "problem".

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Originally Posted by hygh

No, the cap will be added to pve as well as pvp. It would still be hurting the people in pve who don't care to play pvp ever. also the update make it so they can't stack perks to your advantage.
It state that the perk that does the most damage resist will be as high as it goes minus the weapon and shield bonuses.

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How is PvE benefited by people running around with 97-100% damage reduction? It's not. That just removes the challenge, and then you don't have an interesting game or fun/lasting experience. Besides, damage perks are more useful in PvE anyway.

Notturno's question is the main point of contention here. From what they have said, there is no bug fixing attached to this change. If there is no bug fixing attached to the change, then the problem is not solved. People with abnormally high damage reduction, due to bugs (which is the issue we have been having), will still have abnormally high, albeit lower than present, damage reduction. The following video shows three fights against a player who has the damage reduction bug, and the effects of his Thick Skin perk last up to 9 seconds (last fight of the video). That is the issue that needs to be fixed, coupled with a damage reduction cap to fix situational invulnerability, and no further tweaking needs to be done, in regards to this issue.

http://youtu.be/He75iaaeCGg

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Originally Posted by Hiero Glyph

It's bad because the damage reduction is only valid from a perk, shield, and weapon at a single time. This makes damage reduction perks mostly useless (similar to self-revive perks) and shifts the balance of power into the hands of players with the best equipment.

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Did you ever think that the people with the best equipment, like me, worked hard since day 1 to rank their weapons skill up so it would be the best. so what you are telling me is we should always pander to the lowest common denominator. I'm all for making the game easier for newcomers, but don't screw over the veteran player that could help them obtain the best equipment, because that's what I do, we need to help the lowest common denominator, not pander because that's telling them, "If you complain hard enough, life will do what ever you want." This is not the morals that need to be taught. The message that we need to send is, "Complaining gets you nowhere, but if you work hard, wealth and prosperity will follow you wherever you go." this motto helped me, and if your on the if you complain hard enough, then you have no drive, no will to win, no fight in you at all and when your corned and somebody like me drags your boot out of the mud, remember this, they didn't complain, they got schtako done and worked hard.

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Originally Posted by Vikingkid3

How is PvE benefited by people running around with 97-100% damage reduction? It's not. That just removes the challenge, and then you don't have an interesting game or fun/lasting experience. Besides, damage perks are more useful in PvE anyway.

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you have never read The Art of War have you.

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Originally Posted by Vikingkid3

How is PvE benefited by people running around with 97-100% damage reduction?

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People aren't running around in PvE with that kind of reduction. I've been playing this game since day one and I've yet to see it.

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Originally Posted by 3rdpig

People aren't running around in PvE with that kind of reduction. I've been playing this game since day one and I've yet to see it.

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thank you, at least some people are still reasonable in this technology controlled world. I've been playing since day one also, they don't use it in pve, just pvp, so when the update goes into effect pvp will be evened, but pve will be destroyed for the ... ok I forget how many time pvp destroyed pve, but it has happened a lot.

trion really does want their own game to crash and burn lol.. seen this coming

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Originally Posted by Hiero Glyph

It's bad because the damage reduction is only valid from a perk, shield, and weapon at a single time. This makes damage reduction perks mostly useless (similar to self-revive perks) and shifts the balance of power into the hands of players with the best equipment. In all honesty, this change makes the shield and weapon damage reduction bonus crucial while entirely undermining the importance of perks. This seems counterintuitive given how Trion reduced the requirement to unlock all 9 perk slots.

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Gosh I didn't realize so many people were using damage reduction. =/ I mean seriously? Lol sorry I just don't believe you =p

As others have already stated, the best way to go is to put a cap on damage reduction (along with fixing the Thick Skin bug, of course). What the devs currently intend on doing plain and simply is the wrong way to go about solving the problem. Some perks will see little to no use after the upcoming patch, and that is not good folks, not good at all.

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Originally Posted by murdoc8592

trion really does want their own game to crash and burn lol.. seen this coming

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they need to make a monthly survey about what people want because I think this was trion's thought process, "Lets change this, oh and change that, what, no, nobody will complain after these go through they a complaining about them now." didn't look a realize it was a small number in comparison to the total number of people playing.

Personally, I don't care.
However, out of curiosity. How will having multiple damage reduction perks equipped work?

Will it just nullify some making it only useful to have one equipped, or will it just proc the best one, go on cooldown then proc the other.

Example.
"If a player has both the Detachment perk (12% damage resist after kill) and Juggernaut perk (15% damage resistance after melee kill). Players will only have 15% damage resistance after a melee kill, not 27% due to stacking Detachment and Juggernaut."
If you melee kill and get the 15% resistance for 5s, once that is up, if you kill again will you then get the 12% resistance? Or will both be on cooldown?
Don't all damage resistance skills have an internal cooldown?

Again, will only one work making it useless to have more than one equipped or will they all work juts not at the same time giving you a longer damage reduction duration, just not a huge burst one?

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Originally Posted by Felis Menari

As others have already stated, the best way to go is to put a cap on damage reduction (along with fixing the Thick Skin bug, of course). What the devs currently intend on doing plain and simply is the wrong way to go about solving the problem. Some perks will see little to no use after the upcoming patch, and that is not good folks, not good at all.

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And yet another that doesn't totally understand what's going on and make a rash assumption. read post #10 and then re-read first post.

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Originally Posted by 3rdpig

People aren't running around in PvE with that kind of reduction. I've been playing this game since day one and I've yet to see it.

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But they are running around with the defense perks, especially when they run into volge emergencies or sieges. This will essentially screw those builds up. Once again Trion has screwed something up in pve because of pvp. But this time instead of addressing the actual issue, they're changing something that no one has complained about.

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Originally Posted by hardy83

Personally, I don't care.
However, out of curiosity. How will having multiple damage reduction perks equipped work?

Will it just nullify some making it only useful to have one equipped, or will it just proc the best one, go on cooldown then proc the other.

Example.
"If a player has both the Detachment perk (12% damage resist after kill) and Juggernaut perk (15% damage resistance after melee kill). Players will only have 15% damage resistance after a melee kill, not 27% due to stacking Detachment and Juggernaut."
If you melee kill and get the 15% resistance for 5s, once that is up, if you kill again will you then get the 12% resistance? Or will both be on cooldown?
Don't all damage resistance skills have an internal cooldown?

Again, will only one work making it useless to have more than one equipped or will they all work juts not at the same time giving you a longer damage reduction duration, just not a huge burst one?

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Now that is a productive question!
Thank You.

Great, I guess you can just delete all damage reducing perks other than Thick-Skinned :rolleyes:

/sigh

I have been here since day one, foolishly bought the Season pass and collectors edition, but still found this game fun in spite of all of the bugs and Trions crappy lag-arific servers. But being able to stack bonuses with perks was an INTENDED function, while people CHEATING and GLITCHING isn't. Your harming people who use the perks as intended to mitigate damage so they can survive a few seconds longer. I only have one loadout that uses such mitigations and that's my BMG/healer class where I heal and pick people up during Sieges if I choose to play that role.

Please go back to the drawing board wipe this flawed change as well as the one with the grenades and leave it alone and fix the problem of people CHEATING and GLITCHING. This fix is only harming people more in PVE, I don't pvp myself because I don't like it. When you pander to the PVP crowd when it is an infantismal minority it boggles my mind. I bought this game for the story, for the tie-in with the tv show, not for the few pvp maps present, at best pvp is a distraction to help break up the monotony of the main game. However it seems PVP has turned into something that has broke the game.The fact that the whiners from pvp get heard while everyone else who has valid points get ignored is just plain stupid. I really hate to join the Hater-ade Trion smashing bandwagon but d@mn, just d@mn, Trion I'm wondering when your gonna pull your heads out of your collective @$$es.

But I digress, to pull this type of crap, has me livid and ready to join countless others who have given up on this game, wish I could sell it for some sort of credit at Gamestop but its not even worth wiping my @$$ with anymore. Thanks Trion this was the straw that broke this veterans back.

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Originally Posted by hygh

Now that is a productive question!
Thank You.

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No problem!
lol though I imagine my question will be drowned out by people complaining for various reasons before a dev or community person sees it. :P

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Originally Posted by Ironhide

I have been here since day one, foolishly bought the Season pass and collectors edition, but still found this game fun in spite of all of the bugs and Trions crappy lag-arific servers. But being able to stack bonuses with perks was an INTENDED function, while people CHEATING and GLITCHING isn't. Your harming people who use the perks as intended to mitigate damage so they can survive a few seconds longer. I only have one loadout that uses such mitigations and that's my BMG/healer class where I heal and pick people up during Sieges if I choose to play that role.

But I digress, to pull this type of crap, has me livid and ready to join countless others who have given up on this game, wish I could sell it for some sort of credit at gamestop but its not even worth wiping my ***** with anymore. thanks trion this was the straw that broke this veterans back.

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its like history repeating, the few ruin it for the many.

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Originally Posted by hardy83

No problem!
lol though I imagine my question will be drowned out by people complaining for various reasons before a dev or community person sees it. :P

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your probably right.

I was so happy when I read about the T4 box changes...then I read this and all the happiness is gone.

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Originally Posted by hygh

And yet another that doesn't totally understand what's going on and make a rash assumption. read post #10 and then re-read first post.

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It's not a rash assumption, it's an educated guess. Since DR perks will no longer stack, certain DR perks will likely be favored over others. Putting a cap on total DR would be better than what Trion currently intends on doing.