Dev Update: Changing damage reduction - update!

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Originally Posted by hygh

its like history repeating, the few ruin it for the many.

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I know, I've been here since the beginning, I may not have many posts on the forums, but I'm a lurker. I have seen too many things ruined for PVE because of PVP. I only come out and say something when I feel its important and worth saying. This change and the change of the grenades has me worried and ready to call it quits. Trion can keep my Season pass money if they promise me they will use it to buy a clue, and fix the game properly. I am so sick and tired of perfectly good game mechanics getting nerfed because 1.) PVP whiners, or 2.) Trion has no F'n clue what their doing and make rash knee jerk decisions.

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Originally Posted by Felis Menari

It's not a rash assumption, it's an educated guess. Since DR perks will no longer stack, certain DR perks will likely be favored over others. Putting a cap on total DR would be better than what Trion currently intends on doing.

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did you even read post #10 on this thread. if no then read, because like you stated, but also shot down. that is why it is a rash assumption and not an educated guess. educated guess would of happened if you brought new facts to the table. the cap would hurt pve for the new people and by the way your acting, your new. read everything then speak.

I have a feeling that they are taking baby steps in improving the overall gaming experience. I have a feeling the game in December is going to be a completely different experience than it was from launch, or even now. I won't bash it until I play the final product. We as the community have alot of power over the direction this game takes in its developing steps. Lets not complain about things that work, lets complain about things that are broken, or need improvements.

On a Different note Trion Speed up the patch that makes our weapons viable strategic options. I miss using shot guns outside of easy PVE emergencies or minor arkfalls. Beef up the damage, or give them some useful advantage. Take the new ones for example, they do decent damage, but their clip size is too small. Either speed up reload or give us 8 or more rounds. It is a clip after all.

ironhide
first: great name!
second: you have to be patient with defiance because it is a first generation game. the first time that tv and game work in unison
the first submarine was basically a big barrel and now we have all different kinds of u-boats.
first generation item give way to big and better versions. It still feel unbearable at times though.

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Originally Posted by hygh

You have to be patient with defiance because it is a first generation game. the first time that tv and game work in unison
the first submarine was basically a big barrel and now we have all different kinds of u-boats.
first generation item give way to big and better versions. It still feel unbearable at times though.

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^^^^^^

This guy gets it.

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Originally Posted by Holy Bahamut3

On a Different note Trion Speed up the patch that makes our weapons viable strategic options. I miss using shot guns outside of easy PVE emergencies or minor arkfalls. Beef up the damage, or give them some useful advantage. Take the new ones for example, they do decent damage, but their clip size is too small. Either speed up reload or give us 8 or more rounds. It is a clip after all.

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my suggestion is to make the ammo capacity per load and the shot pod back to what they were or at the very least give more ammo in the weapon.

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Originally Posted by Holy Bahamut3

On a Different note Trion Speed up the patch that makes our weapons viable strategic options. I miss using shot guns outside of easy PVE emergencies or minor arkfalls. Beef up the damage, or give them some useful advantage. Take the new ones for example, they do decent damage, but their clip size is too small. Either speed up reload or give us 8 or more rounds. It is a clip after all.

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Yeah I remember when I could use my Combat Shot gun with fan pellet spread and lay out some decent damage on hellbugs with my 24 round drum magazine, now spitting on the hell bugs is abut as effective as using a shotgun.

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Originally Posted by hygh

did you even read post #10 on this thread. if no then read, because like you stated, but also shot down. that is why it is a rash assumption and not an educated guess. educated guess would of happened if you brought new facts to the table. the cap would hurt pve for the new people and by the way your acting, your new. read everything then speak.

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I'm not new (been here since launch), and I did read your post. If the proposed DR cap was set low, then yes it would hurt PvE significantly. If it was set high, then it wouldn't be too detrimental. I didn't give out a specific number, so that would mean you made a...rash assumption. Since there's no singular ability to grant invulnerability, it seems obvious that the devs never intended for players to become immune to damage through DR stacking. I agree with that sentiment.

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Originally Posted by hygh

ironhide
first: great name!
second: you have to be patient with defiance because it is a first generation game. the first time that tv and game work in unison
the first submarine was basically a big barrel and now we have all different kinds of u-boats.
first generation item give way to big and better versions. It still feel unbearable at times though.

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Oh yeah I have been quite patient, believe me and I know this, I have been patient since launch and I hate to see a game I still love to play get ruined. I suffered in silence when many nerfs have come and gone, some needed and some not. I have bit my tounge and decided to wait to see how things turn out, but now for me when key intregal portions of the game get changed like grenade and the ability to choose perks for strategic and specific advantages they way they were designed and intended to be used, (Cheating and Glitching isn't strategic, its just pathetic if your that poor of a player and have to resort to those methods) I have to speak up when something ruins a game I love and makes me just want to throw my hands up and quit.

And thanks, been using Ironhide as long as I can remember, started out on tfw2005 with this name. Long time Generation 1 transformers fan, so by all means I'm no game newbie, especially when my first system was an Atari 2600.

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Originally Posted by Felis Menari

I'm not new (been here since launch), and I did read your post. If the proposed DR cap was set low, then yes it would hurt PvE significantly. If it was set high, then it wouldn't be too detrimental. I didn't give out a specific number, so that would mean you made a...rash assumption. Since there's no singular ability to grant invulnerability, it seems obvious that the devs never intended for players to become immune to damage through DR stacking. I agree with that sentiment.

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first: I'm only rash in cases of hand to hand combat.
second: If you have been here since launch then, why are you even complaining?
third: You never gave a number, but you said, "What the devs currently intend on doing plain and simply is the wrong way to go about solving the problem." the fact that they don't keep to PvP is the problem.

so yes you made a rash assumption
and also you made another on me, I never said you gave a specific number, so you just don't care to pay any attention.
come back and talk when you have taken some time to think about a response.

I was always more of a transformers: beast wars person myself.

so anything productive that we can add now

My butt hurts for some reason.

I don't know how to fix that unfortunately.

Trion just remove PvP from the game and undo all past nerfs made to weapons. Your PvP sucks and every attempt you make to fix it just hurts PvE.

Lets get back on topic of why the changes being presented to the perks are bad, and what should be done. In my honest opinion the perk changes need to be put on hold until the main problem the people cheating and glitching in pvp is fixed. Seriously in pvp I would just have a standardized loadout, you only get certain choices that you can combine in a myriad of ways. All items are stock so no one infector or smg is more powerful than the guy standing next to you. There needs to be a clear line drawn between pvp and the PVE world so neither affects the other.

there are some things I need to show you in the game Ironhide.

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Originally Posted by Ironhide

Lets get back on topic of why the changes being presented to the perks are bad, and what should be done. In my honest opinion the perk changes need to be put on hold until the main problem the people cheating and glitching in pvp is fixed. Seriously in pvp I would just have a standardized loadout, you only get certain choices that you can combine in a myriad of ways. All items are stock so no one infector or smg its more powerful than the guy standing next to you. There needs to be a clear line drawn between pvp and the PVE world so neither affects the other.

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Which the community has been saying since the beginning. ^^^^

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Originally Posted by Holy Bahamut3

Which the community has been saying since the beginning. ^^^^

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I don't care if they have to take pvp down again like they did in the beginning to make it this way. I fear however that the two worlds are so innerconnected that no one knows how to separate the two.

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Originally Posted by hygh

there are some things I need to show you in the game Ironhide.

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Well I'm on the PS3, dunno if your on xbox or pc,but I don't want to derail this topic too much, so just PM me with what it is you want to show me and we can figure everything out there.

a few lines of data code separate them.
just add a line of filter code and you have 2 completed and separated worlds.
except for shadow wars.

GOOD.

Now maybe PvP wont be "BLARGH CHARGE IN WITH SHOTGUN STRAIGHT ON!" mode anymore with these attempts of get a kill but get killed routines.

All PvP is and has been for most players is suicide charges and hit and run away tactics with scrub cloak. Hopfully some thinking will be involved now since everyone wont be running around as tanks, to be able to soak up dmg and then flee the scene.

And if you need all these buffs stacked from keeping you from dying in PvE then I suggest you don't stand out in the open to shoot at enemies. Sry you will not be able to dozer through everything before your shields even break, and god forbid you will have to wait a few seconds for them to recharge. This game is easy as is. Hopefully this brings a welcomed challenge to some.

I say its good not to have a lotus swarm legion of near Invincible Ark hunters. Good call Trion.

I'm a sniper with good defensive skills so swade off shotgun is usually how I die. you know, from Behind me.

I want to start by saying damage mitigation in Defiance is additive, that is dumb. The reason why people are able to stack such absurd resistances is because bonuses are not multiplicative - this inherently prevents such huge gains.

Let me outline this with an example.

Let us use the current Defiance logic - all bonuses are additive. Say you have Cellular Armor (6%) and Detachment (12%) active. You now have a total of 18% resistance to damage. But wait, let us also throw in the fact that you have Thick Skinned (50%) active too! You're now at a whopping 68% mitigation! While this may be temporary, you can see how bonuses would quickly add up. If you use a Tachmag to damage this person (125 damage per bullet) and it is mitigated by that full 68% damage, you are now dealing 40 damage per bullet. Crazy, right?

Well let's say we swapped to a multiplicative method. Depending on how you multiply bonuses (let's assume largest first), you can get different results. Let's use the same previous example - 125 damage Tachmag, three active perks. If we mitigate things multiplicatively, we get this result:

• 125 damage * 50% mitigation from Thick Skinned = 62.5 damage mitigated, 62.5 damage received
• 62.5 damage received * 12% mitigation from Detachment = 7.5 damage mitigated, 55 damage received
• 55 damage received * 6% mitigation from Cellular Armor = 3.3 damage mitigated, 51.7 damage received

As you can see, there's a significant difference in damage mitigation using a multiplicative method. The more you begin to stack resistances, the less benefit you see from each succeeding defensive bonus. What this does is inherently weaken "stacking" of particular bonuses, which encourages diversification of bonuses.

With this current change, I'm just going to assume everyone is going to drop most of their defensive perks. I think you will see Cellular Armor stick around as the "safe" choice for when Thick Skinned is down, with our Rambos running Detachment if they are the type to take on multiple people at once. Fortitude will become more prevalent with the increased reliance on Thick Skinned for survivability - Detachment will most likely be the dropped perk for this. Rear Guard will still be necessary to counter Cloaking, but that takes precedence over Cellular Armor so you may even see arguments against using CA.

Point being, if Defiance used multiplicative methods for damage mitigation this wouldn't even be an issue right now.

Anyhow, let's get back to the issue at hand, all this dang "statistical advantage legitimately gained through creative usage of game mechanics." If you can taste something, that's sarcasm with a hint of butthurt. Since everyone else is chipping in their game footage, I guess I'll throw my stuff in the ring too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdgeyZ6-4Ng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFgR5Zd-DOg

Anyhow, I talked about this change directly in my earlier post. I just wanted to contribute some additional content to the conversation. Take from it what you will.

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Originally Posted by Nefarious

GOOD.

Now maybe PvP wont be "BLARGH CHARGE IN WITH SHOTGUN STRAIGHT ON!" mode anymore with these attempts of get a kill but get killed routines.

All PvP is and has been for most players is suicide charges and hit and run away tactics with scrub cloak. Hopfully some thinking will be involved now since everyone wont be running around as tanks, to be able to soak up dmg and then flee the scene.

And if you need all these buffs stacked from keeping you from dying in PvE then I suggest you don't stand out in the open to shoot at enemies. Sry you will not be able to dozer through everything before your shields even break, and god forbid you will have to wait a few seconds for them to recharge. This game is easy as is. Hopefully this brings a welcomed challenge to some.

I say its good not to have a lotus swarm legion of near Invincible Ark hunters. Good call Trion.

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you put a positive spin on it.

Would you guys please implement this for all perks? I feel like some people put out more damage than me and can reload their primary and stowed weapon to fast with the right combo of perks its just not fair. :(

Well... At least devs are doing something, even if I would have prefered a fix on the current damage reduction exploit.

Now, if I may :


Bad Damage reduction formula

Final DMG = DMG * (1 - Damage Reduction 1 - Damage Reduction 2 - ... - Damage Reduction n)

If the sum of every Damage Reduction is above 100%, you're screwed.


Good Damage reduction formula

Final DMG = DMG / (1 + (Damage Reduction 1 + Damage Reduction 2 + ... + Damage Reduction n) * 2)

With that formula no risk to see complete invulnerability, unless you find more than 50 simultaneous sources of Damage Reduction. The only draw back with that formula is that it's not accurate with the DR values : a small total will effectively give a higher DR than announced while a high total will give a smaller amount than announced (the most accurate values are around 50% DR)

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Originally Posted by Chump Norris

I feel like some people put out more damage than me and can reload their primary and stowed weapon to fast with the right combo of perks its just not fair. :(

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What prevents you from figuring out the same or a similar combination?

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Originally Posted by Lorchra

What prevents you from figuring out the same or a similar combination?

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Nothing at all but the people who dont care about this nerf to defensive perks are the ones who choose to go for offensive builds. I dont play PvP but people exploit in PvP so my defensive PvE builds are being ruined thats fair. They should do it to all perks then these ppl on their high horse that dont use defensive perks get a feel of whats really happening.

This game is easy enough to play blindfolded. Why on earth would you complain about them makin it more challenging in the open world while simultaneously getting rid of the invulnerability exploit used by *****es in pvp....

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Originally Posted by four

This game is easy enough to play blindfolded. Why on earth would you complain about them makin it more challenging in the open world while simultaneously getting rid of the invulnerability exploit used by *****es in pvp....

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What perks do you use?

If you have the same generic damage buff and reload perks everyone uses of course its easy.

Lets make it harder all around! No perks should stack..people can use a perk to extend ego duration lower ego recharge one defensive perk one offensive perk a revive other perk a self revive perk maybe a speed boost perk.

It should be my choice if I want more challenge not the PvP whiners choice.


Question: Why dont they fix things instead of putting a band-aid on them?

Answer: Laziness just like the charge blade refund that was pure laziness.

This should be an interesting change,

I'm more botherd about the guardian shield and bmg that stops you taking ANY damage at all, fix this first please.

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Originally Posted by Hiero Glyph

This seems counterintuitive given how Trion reduced the requirement to unlock all 9 perk slots.

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It seems par for the course with how Trion does things with this game to me.

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Originally Posted by hygh

ironhide
first: great name!
second: you have to be patient with defiance because it is a first generation game. the first time that tv and game work in unison
the first submarine was basically a big barrel and now we have all different kinds of u-boats.
first generation item give way to big and better versions. It still feel unbearable at times though.

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Trion wants you to think that and be patient. The reality is that its a misdirect/illusion with regards to any of that being why the game is in the terrible state that it is. 99% of the issues are middle and upper management decisions that continue to plague the game.... not the malarky that its a "first generation game".

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Originally Posted by Chump Norris

Trion just remove PvP from the game and undo all past nerfs made to weapons. Your PvP sucks and every attempt you make to fix it just hurts PvE.

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Im beginning to be convinced that they are moving in a direction to render both pvp and pve pointless. That would leave then just socializing in the game left but they made that obsolete before launch. If I wasnt utterally convinced that they are trying to ween people off the game as part of an exit strategy from the project's contractual obligations, I'd believe instead that Trion's got one very thick epistemic bubble that will be extremely painful when popped.

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Originally Posted by hygh

first: I'm only rash in cases of hand to hand combat.
second: If you have been here since launch then, why are you even complaining?
third: You never gave a number, but you said, "What the devs currently intend on doing plain and simply is the wrong way to go about solving the problem." the fact that they don't keep to PvP is the problem.

so yes you made a rash assumption
and also you made another on me, I never said you gave a specific number, so you just don't care to pay any attention.
come back and talk when you have taken some time to think about a response.

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1) Clearly that is not the case
2) Because I still care about the game
3) I will admit that balance changes aimed at improving PvP at the expense of PvE need to strictly affect PvP

Now for the bolded comment; that point of contention does not exist. It is irrelevant to the core issue and you missed the point I was trying to make. I believed that you understood that if the proposed DR cap was high enough, then the PvE of Defiance would not suffer. Obviously I was mistaken.

You seem to be of the mindset that a DR cap is an absolutely terrible idea, even if the only intent is to disable the ability of a player to achieve invulnerability. If the upcoming changes to DR only affected PvP, I would be ok with that. I just think that players shouldn't have the ability to become invulnerable, even if it is for a brief moment. And that, good sir, is my opinion on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Felis Menari

1) Clearly that is not the case
2) Because I still care about the game
3) I will admit that balance changes aimed at improving PvP at the expense of PvE need to strictly affect PvP

Now for the bolded comment; that point of contention does not exist. It is irrelevant to the core issue and you missed the point I was trying to make. I believed that you understood that if the proposed DR cap was high enough, then the PvE of Defiance would not suffer. Obviously I was mistaken.

You seem to be of the mindset that a DR cap is an absolutely terrible idea, even if the only intent is to disable the ability of a player to achieve invulnerability. If the upcoming changes to DR only affected PvP, I would be ok with that. I just think that players shouldn't have the ability to become invulnerable, even if it is for a brief moment. And that, good sir, is my opinion on the matter.

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Not mind set. I know the cap is a bad idea because nobody will win and there is no midway in it. The patch update is disabling the DR stacking to begin with. It still should stay for the rookies in PvE, but history will always repeat itself unless we learn from our previous errors.
how many time will the few spoil it for the many.
the Cap was already shot down in this thread.
please start a new thread for it in the suggestions forum.
thank you for thinking the response through, most would have continued blindly.

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Originally Posted by Sanguinesun

Trion wants you to think that and be patient. The reality is that its a misdirect/illusion with regards to any of that being why the game is in the terrible state that it is. 99% of the issues are middle and upper management decisions that continue to plague the game.... not the malarky that its a "first generation game".

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the first time they try to make a game and tv synthesis and you say it isn't first gen. first gen means first time attempted. the first gen rockets crash and burned this game almost did the same, but is now making like the first gen planes, it is going through trial and error. besides PvP is pointless, but PvE has greater potential that I hope trion doesn't squander.

now this is a positive thread so think positive.

I will never cease to be amazed by PvE players thinking that PvP is the cause of all the so-called disasters that happened in the game.

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Originally Posted by Dracian

I will never cease to be amazed by PvE players thinking that PvP is the cause of all the so-called disasters that happened in the game.

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Are you actually going to sit here and try to claim that this isn't because of pvp? HAHAHA.

These problems only occur in pvp? Pffft doubtful.

Terrible decision from a game design perspective.

I don't even use many defensive perks as I prefer offense, but this removes a number of viable builds from the game and effectively makes the majority of DR perks useless. In PvE you'll ignore everything other than Detachment or Cellular Armor, depending on how aggressive your playstyle is. In PvP you'll use either Detachment or Thick Skinned and Rear Guard (Some people might use CA here too, but I'd argue that's a poor choice because it no longer stacks with the others, isn't that big a reduction, and uses a perk space you'd normally use to increase your killing power, but that might be my offensive bias talking).

This makes Fail safe, Fortified Stance, Hunker Down, Crash Test Dummy, In The Trenches, Juggernaut, and any other DR reduction perks I forgot, completely and utterly useless.

It removes meaningful choice from the game by making all DR perks that aren't the ones Notturno listed (or myself) completely useless. If you take any of them after this goes into effect you are simply, mathematically, wrong. You have built your character improperly. Full Stop.

As it is now, taking them might not be completely the best thing, but they do give you bonuses that you can use. You can argue that they aid your play style more, etc. As of next week you really won't be able to do that anymore.

That's bad. As it is always bad to allow your players to make 'wrong' builds. All builds should, ideally, be somewhat viable. This isn't always possible, but when there are certain perks/talents/skills that are so undesirable that you would never take them for any sane reason. . . that's just awful, and completely avoidable.

This will continue to be bad for the game unless/until they gut the majority of DR perks and give them different bonuses, replace them entirely, OR repeal this change.

Again, as someone whom this issue doesn't affect in the slightest--it's simply bad design. And somewhat disappointing.