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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahanese
Hmm. Not sure which videos were sent to you but I'd love to know the loadout that would require non-stop 3 full 75-round tachmag magazines to down the target. After all, you guys are fixing it and it's not an exploit, right? Sharing is caring.
I still respect you as well. Most of your opinions are well worded and make sense. But I am afraid it sounds like you enjoy the solo bosses. I am sorry but Jackelg is boring and can be beat with an incenerator and a Vbi ar and a decent shield, only perks I had at the time were the ones that affected OC. To get the little firemonkeys to scream and run under jack use the incenerator. You shoot one on the little guy and watch him flame up. He lights on fire and runs screaming under Joe,forcing the guy down. Switch to the ar, overcharge and unload. rinse and repeat. Nim was a pain the first time, but now that he has been nerfed he is still long but fairly easy. The chat needs fixed for those that use it (and I would use it if it worked) and the solo missions need changed to group missions. We all know that, but if they were to change EVERYTHING at once, then instead of some of us older players complaining, EVERYBODY would complain and lots would quit in protest, then there would be NO Defiance to fix and complain about. I'm sorry I prefer a few changes at a time. With that we still have Defiance to complain about but play, and we only get a few more bugs to report and hopefully get fixed, instead of thousands of bugs at once that would destroy the game as well as our love for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by crasher
Like Chillipino said, would you be able to share some of these videos with us? If you showed some of the videos you've been sent during a livestream, we may be able to mend the disconnect between what you and the dev team are seeing as intended gameplay vs what the players have been calling bugs. As it is now, we both sit on different sides of the table and both see something different. And your livestreams seem to be the perfect place for the players to hear your side and understand your thoughts behind what we call bugs.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahanese
For instance, the video below is one I sent in regarding the damage "bug" (I can remove the video from this, and an earlier, post if you deem it necessary). In this video, I record three confrontations with a player who has been effected by the "bug". The third fight in particular (starting at 27 seconds) shows the player's shield breaking at 32 seconds, for the next three seconds, the amount of damage he takes drops 90% (202 crit to 20 crit). With perk stacking, the only possible amount of damage reduction he could have achieved in that instant is 56% (not crouched-Hunker Down, not standing still-Fortified Stance, had not killed anyone-Detachment) through Cellular Armor and Thick Skin. The only possible way to achieve 90% damage reduction is if he had a 34% damage reduction while reloading weapon mastery (no shield has a damage reduction bonus that would have applied in state that he was in) and was reloading his sawed off, instead of switching to his SMG. Furthermore, after Thick Skin's three seconds of protection has ended, he has 81% damage reduction for 6 more seconds (131 base damage at the beginning of the fight, 26 damage at the middle of the fight, back up to normal damage levels at the 43rd second of the video). At least 9 seconds after his shield has broken, he has achieved damage reduction levels that are impossible under normal circumstances, for periods of time that are impossible under normal circumstances.
Sadly, I forgot to inspect him on video, to prove how his loadout would not have given him those damage reduction levels. However, from the fire rate of his smg, it is likely a VOT Pulser (common among all who have this bug) and from the reduced damage he took from the first 3 shots on his shield I assume he was using a strong guardian shield (if so, that may be an indication of a bug, as guardian shields offer protection when the shield is full, after the first shot the shield is no longer full) that offers 34% (87 damage from the first three hits vice 131 from the following hits) damage reduction when shields are full.
I hope I was clear in my explanation, because from this video alone, it is evident that perks are not where the bug lies when it comes to damage reduction. As far as I could tell, all of them worked correctly throughout the three fights. It is the bonuses on the gun and, possibly, the shield that have been causing all the problems.
http://youtu.be/He75iaaeCGg
Please tell me you guys are re-thinking this lazy option and going for an actual fix for the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahanese
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingkid3
^This. I had the same experience with the same individual in the video along with another clan mate of that person.
Bottom line: If it's not considered an exploit then the information should be public knowledge. Keeping the information private only diminishes developer-player trust.
I think you didn't get the point of Dahanese statement (I have bolded what is important) :Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikingkid3
If there hasn't been any bug, the sentence would have been "The videos we've been sent (...) don't show bugs but have highlighted issues blah blah blaa...".Quote:
Originally Posted by dahanese
There are bugs indeed, but they can't fix them.
this is going to make the lone wolf approach much more difficult, i can't understand why they can't just put non-stackable defence boosts on pvp and leave pve as it is (although it might be more difficult to program in). in attempting to fix pvp they are going to break pve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracian
Well, it depends on what words you bold now doesn't it?
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dahanese
Not really. The sentence that's relevant is the one that directly references videos sent by players.Quote:
Originally Posted by chilipino
So you always get bugs when able.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahanese
Dont see bugs in your changes to DR.
Can't fix bugs seen in videos by others about things.
But your DR changes will fix the issues(not bugs?) seen in the videos by others.
Ok...
Sorry about the confusion here: we are getting videos from the community, checking them out, and figuring out why things are happening. They are happening not due to bugs: ergo, no bugs that can be fixed as they do not appear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dracian
I'm sending the latest video over to see what's going on and when I get more info, I'll let you guys know.
And to Chilipino: for strategies of any kind, I'm going to leave that discussion up to the community. Notturno has been super helpful with our investigations if I'm going to give thanks to someone!
So you guys don't consider using a specific weapon to boost your DR to almost 100% when your shield breaks a bug? Because what's going to happen is you reduce everyone else's DR while the user with the certain gun still obtains almost 100% DR.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahanese
To me that makes no sense whatsoever. From what I gather the whole point of eliminating stacking DR is to prevent 100% DR. But using a certain setup to obtain almost 100% DR isn't a bug from your point of view?
Even typing it out feels like i'm going around in circles.....
So which is it? Is the DR perk nerf to prevent 100% DR, or is almost 100% DR from a certain weapon ok? It seems to me like your left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing...
And I don't see how you guys can't reproduce it if that's the problem. My clan saw someone with the almost 100% DR, inspected him, and was able to reproduce it in less than a hour of trial and error.....
I don't mean to be harsh, but the whole situation just stinks of laziness. And the bad part is even the lazy fix will not prevent the original issue.
PS. On a completely unrelated topic. Are you sure your time is best spent messing with perks that no one has complained about instead of fixing the constant freezes and disconnects people are experiencing?
So, some details on things that are broken due to various stacking bugs:
It is possible to get Thick Skinned to trigger three times causing a 9 second armor boost rather than a 3 second armor boost. This is due to the trigger for the boost having poor stacking settings. (This issue we are actively investigating as separate matter.)
Additionally, the legendary weapon mastery for less damage while reloading (12%) can stack with the synergy bonus for less damage while reloading (5%). (Additionally, there is an edge case to get this synergy bonus to actually stack twice, providing a 10% total bonus.)
Combined with a short recharge delay shield and the less damage while recharging legendary shield bonus (12%) and cellular armor (6%), it is possible to have a few combinations which result in a consistent ~35% damage resistance bonus. (Or greater.)
The mastery bonus on the weapon stacking with the synergy which can then stack on itself really skew the results. (There are also a few times in the videos that In The Trenches and just normal weapon falloff come into effect, but predominantly we're seeing the unfortunate results of poor effect stacking.)
The damage reduction stacking update will not solve every problem seen by every player, it will however solve most of the witnessed issues and open up future perk, weapon, and shield functionality. With a reliable core set of rules, damage resistance becomes a mechanic that can be built upon for greater strategy and variety rather than the target of an endless series of exploits.
If you know, for sure, the weapon and/or shield exploit, and were able to do it, then report it to the devs.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattr
They don't seem to be acknowledging this event that has been seen by quite a few people.
I haven't played PVP, but I have seen a lot of posts about it being a specific weapon and/or shield combo.
If you were able to reproduce, then they, also, should be able.
I can't even count the number of times myself and others have reported it. I don't even bother anymore. It's not like even with the bug it's impossible to kill people that use it. If we know the person is doing it unintentionally, we inform them of the problem. Most of the time they will stop using that weapon. If they do it intentionally, we make it a point to kill them even if we have to chase them across the map to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by LITTLE B1RD
I'm more annoyed by the fact that Trion won't even acknowledge the issue, but will turn around and change perks that from my knowledge no one has complained about.
what if someone was to just post how to do it all over the internet and everyone started using the glitch? surely they would have to speed things up a little
Thank you for the reply, Trick!
Is this due to possibly having a siphon weapon that procs right after your shield breaks bringing you back some shield which then breaks...etc etc.? Btw, this is probably the main culprit in the cognitive gap between your team and us players.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickDempsey
I believe purples can also get this mastery as a few of the folks using this "creative stacking of DR" did have purple weapons in their loadout. So basically two machinist weapons... fire weapon 1, get it into reload state, switch to weapon 2, get it into reload state... ta da 10% DR.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickDempsey
I've seen these shield in purple flavor as well (4-8% DR).Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickDempsey
Thanks for all of this info. Now it's super clear why you're implementing the DR changes the way you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickDempsey
So with the new changes, the maximum DR that a player can have will be:
Thick Skinned (50) + Shield (12) + Weapon (5) = 67% for at most 3 seconds?
Quick follow-up question: What were your thoughts around a general DR cap across shields, weapons, and perks? Would that have given more or less strategy/variety to players?
I know this sounds crazy, but I'd suggest that you stick to fixing things that are broken (like effects that trigger multiple times when they aren't supposed to, or weapon boosts that stay active when you're not wielding the weapon) instead of things that aren't (like stacking).Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickDempsey
And this is a problem why? Why should adding a synergy disable the mastery bonus or vice versa? Getting a bonus on an item that disables your bonuses on other items or makes your perks useless is not a bonus. If Dark Matter complains, you can send them my way and I'll explain it to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickDempsey
And here's the basic disconnect that is killing this game. You actually see optimal legendary equipment that gives you a game play advantage as a problem. I thought that was kind of the point of hunting for optimal legendary gear. To get all of those bonuses to stack, you have to get all of the right random bonuses on the right items to fit your play style, without getting stuck with useless "bonuses" on any of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickDempsey
Moreover, those perks and bonuses aren't free. They are taking the place of other bonuses that you could be using in their place. Tanking it up by stacking damage resistance means forgoing bonuses that would boost your damage output or give you other advantages like bigger crits or longer cloaking. It's a trade-off.
(edited to remove misplaced blame; thanks, mattr)
Edited with appreciation to Shogo for not placing this one on PvPers heh.
Sorry. You're absolutely correct. After reading more of the thread, it appears they are breaking things you didn't ask for them to fix. It's not an excuse, but this is the first I've been on in a while and I had only a short while to post. I read the start of the thread, jumped to the end, saw Trick's post and started typing. With your indulgence, I'll remove that bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattr
Chili, from what I've seen, I think that does happen, but using my last video as an example, he never has a siphon proc during the fight. However, maybe Thick Skin activated, then after the first three seconds something else deactivated (maybe the reloading bonuses, dropping his damage reduction from 90% to 81%) and Thick Skin continued to activate 2 more times, then there would be a 25% (minus cellular armor) damage reduction bonus that is unaccounted for. Falloff damage and In The Trenches could have taken affect at some point, but falloff damage only decreases the damage he was taking from 26 to 25 and the damage never changed based on the height disparity between him and I. Either way, if Thick Skin activates three times, and weapon and shield bonuses are stacking, without knowing his entire loadout and the bonuses on his weapons and shield, Trick's explanation might account for the player's damage reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by chilipino
Based on that example (those being the only damage reduction bonuses on the player's whole loadout), that shouldn't last 3 seconds (syphon procs just restore shield, they don't begin the recharging process). If the player had the shield that recharged in 2.7 seconds, then for the .3 seconds remaining on Thick Skin, assuming you never shot him, and was reloading at that time, the player would have that 67% damage reduction, but only for 1 shot (stops the shield from recharging). Then the next few shots until Thick Skin is over (and the player is still reloading) they would have 55%, then 5% until the reload finishes. So, with all legendary equipment and legendary bonuses, and a shield that begins to recharge in 2.7 seconds (fastest in the game), the maximum would be Thick Skin (50%) + Shield (12%) + Weapon (12% from mastery) + Machinist Synergy (5%)? = 79%. Only obtainable while reloading, as the shield is recharging during the last .3 seconds of Thick Skin, and only for 1 shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by chilipino
Thank you for the thorough explanation Trick! I agree with Chili, it is very clear why you are implementing this change. I'm now pretty excited to play around with it and come up with new strategies, and especially to not play against people with MechaGodzilla levels of damage reduction.
That is a good point for clarification. Weapon bonuses should not stack, and definitely not stack on themselves, but will a weapon's mastery trump a synergy bonus or vice versa? Or will the synergy and mastery stack? And, if they don't stack, will the new system that will be changing weapon bonuses prevent a situation where you could have a useless roll because of the synergy (i.e. DR while reloading synergy and DR while reloading mastery)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shogo_Yahagi
Procreation is a serious decision. It should not be reduced to, "If they can I get too!"Quote:
Originally Posted by LITTLE B1RD
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/cnr.png
Oh so now its an exploit. You guys are really showing that you know nothing about the game even though you design it. Its pathetic and outrageous that it took you this long to acknowledge something was indeed broken. Just a few weeks ago you told the PvP player base that it would be unfair to punish the player because he knew the (now broken) mechanics of the game and that everything is working as intended and to basically learn 2 play. It's probably a little late now since most people have left pvp, and the ones who did stay, you spit in their face when you told them everything was fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrickDempsey
OOOH! I felt the BURN.Quote:
Originally Posted by TigrisMorte
It was a good burn, though, like a tattoo.:cool:
Does anyone else get really sad reading the Devs answer (more so, the not knowing whats going on)
"no bugs to fix"
"what bugs"
"stacking bugs"
"were not aware of any bugs"
its like a new answer every hour lol
Almost kind of reminds me of people changing their forum name every hour/day to avoid the ban hammer.
For real....as flip floppity as it gets!Quote:
Originally Posted by N3gativeCr33p
Leave it to you to actually know... Krazy Karen, Crystal Kitty, or whatever it is you're calling yourself this week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crystal Kitty
I'm going to just be honest as a game developer and rational thinking person capable of critical thinking, problem solving/using opposable thumbs and say bluntly that this is a -stupid- decision in regard to balance.
I wish I could diagnose via socratic method why developers come up with this type of plan but I find it easiest to believe it arises from being confined to your own heads and trapped in your own ideas without second guessing possibly horrible repurcussions to the rippling fluid surface of gameplay.
1. The melee swords have no way of being viable especially with shoddy damage bonuses and (not future) shoddy defensive bonuses. Even with both, they have no way to shine amongst guns.
2. These new formulae will give even less sense of reward to players as they spend time due to gaining less and less damage resistance. The first hours of gameplay will curve then pop off too early like a firecracker or a premature... leaving the players unsatisfied. As they play a game for some time, they expect to die less quickly to the basic enemy goons.
3. Players will simply complain about dying too quickly. Doubly so. Not only will players with the perks take more damage tan they used to, but do you think they will simply leave the useless perks there? No! They will put in dps perks and so dps will effectively double. That means people will have a much much higher dps and everyone will die faster, leaving the player unsatisfied yet again. This will put time to kill in line with games such as COD, which excel at being COD better than this game will because they are in fact themselves. Players will pick the best option for an experience and if the game plays like a shoddy cod, they will pick cod instead.
First the warframe devs make stupid balancing choices, now you? Do they put things in the water at gamescom? XD
Not trying to be offensive or anything, just being honest because I think people need blunt people to give them wake up calls when they have bad ideas. Scratch that. Terrible ideas. As a developer, I can think of at -least- 10 better ways to implement a balance around damage resistance mechanic.
I'll give it a try but this new ""Damage Reduction Perk "Trumping" Perk"" thing should just be applied to PvP.
If PvP can have different outfits unusable in PvE, can't they do that with the perk rules too?
It's possible to have totally different damage systems for PvP and PvE in MMOG's. Other games have had it but I think it's too optimistic to think it's within this development team's capabilities with its current resources. It's more complicated than having a different set of meshes for the avatar for one mode over another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess7739
There were any number of ways they could have dealt with this pseudo-issue that would have made more sense. Notturno posted a good one with multiplicative rather than additive stacking as a solution. It changes nothing for PvP which wil remain broken since Trion chooses to ignore the actual glitches such as perpetual shield regeneration. It will make PvE less enjoyable for many players though.
there are more dedicated PvE players than there are PvP...i would imagine that 85% of the complaints trion receives are PvP related and the patches that are put out are applied across both worlds only causing more frustration..if they only did stuff like this to PvP only then there wouldn't as much outrage..Patches like these will be the ultimate demise of defiance
You know they are coming out with Ego Spikes that will buff shields and health when in the vicinity of them. Plus stims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolgor_TheHound
So just say they didn't change the DMG reductions in PvE. Then we end up having spike/stims on top of our stacked dmg resistances. Players would become bullet sponges.
Trion took away one feature that was unbalancing things and are adding an other system to take its place.
Trion had already planned to introduce spikes and stims without changing the damage reduction mechanics for perks. It was perfectly fine with having both in the game. One has nothing to do with the other. The change in damage reduction mechanics is due solely to complaints from players complaining about other glitches that players were using for invulnerability. As a result the development team noticed that coding on Thick Skinned was defective and could be triggered three times in a row. Rather than fix that they took the lazy man's option and simply neutered the damage reduction perk mechanics entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nefarious
Pretending that this has anything to do with the upcoming DLC doesn't magically make it so regardless of anyone's attempt to make transparently false claims that this has anything to do with anything other than PvP. In all fairness if Trion actually bothered to address the actual complaints rather than fabricate psuedo issues so it could pretend it was doing something positive there wouldn't have been any change to the damage reduction perk mechanics.
^^^ well I guess everything fell into place and worked out for the best then. Even without glitching to gain invulnerability, the stacking of dmg resistance's was stupid powerful. The game is better off for it.
Simple fix, Remove the Legendary Shield...ta da fixed the exploit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavadus
Shrug.... Yeah its worth arguing something already put in place and a thread necro'd from over a month ago.
I just wanna say you effectively ruined PvP for me with this new patch, and just lost one of the few good xbox players left. Had a fun 3 months playing though, best of luck in future endeavors.
Well I hope everyone had fun using assault rifles because now there is a new king in the PvP world. Perma-cloak, sawed off, ego on reload, and speed boost shotgun users. Grats..............