dlc makes defiance the worst pvp game

I have tested the DPS against the non charge semi sniper and they do have higher DPS. FYI the two VBI semi sniper are meant to be used for PvE since the shove enemies back something the surge bolter does not do.

The surge bolter does not hit as hard as a vot bolter because the vot has a higher base crit multiplier.

Honestly it just seems like your lying to get your way.

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Originally Posted by Vikingkid3

The main argument for the Surge Bolter is that it is balanced out by it's lower DPS. My question to you is have you actually tested it's dps? It does not have less dps than other semi-autos, and at least equal dps to a bolt action.

Headshots:
Any level of charge will OHK on a headshot. A non-charged headshot will not kill but you can quickly rattle off a single body shot, fast enough to counter another sniper, for a 2-hit kill.

Body Shots:
The Surge Bolter does marginally less damage than a bolt action sniper but has a high enough ROF to make up for the disparity, as well as the ability to maintain the target in the scope (if you even felt like ADS in the first place), and hip-firing like a super accurate shotgun further increasing the chances of landing that second shot.

Since the last patch, it is more difficult to survive headshots from bolt actions (consequentially it is also more difficult to survive headshots from a Surge Bolter), but it is still very possible, even though the math does not add up. For instance, using a modded Top Notch Frontier Repeater (level 20 bolt action skill), I scored a headshot on Surge Bolter user, the purple (shield damage) numbers matched the opponent's Rhino shield. The yellow (health damage) number was 2625 yet the player did not die (it is not possible to have that much health. I assume Thick Skin still kicks in on single shots, and that 2625 was actually cut in half, thus he survived). In those circumstances the Surge Bolter has higher dps than the Bolt Action, because the time between shots for the Bolt Action is far greater than the time between shots for the Surge Bolter, thus the Surge Bolter user would win that duel (assuming equal skill of the players). To clarify how the Surge Bolter user has higher DPS: we see each other, I score the headshot and he does not die. He instantly fires a non-charged shot and gets a headshot. He is still scoped and fires again, while I am loading (not reloading) and lining up my next shot. He hits, I die before I have a chance to fire again.

Bottom line, there should be no debate on whether or not a semi-automatic sniper rifle has the killing power of a bolt action sniper rifle. It should be clear cut, the semi auto may match dps on a mob, through ROF, but the bolt action wins on single-shot. When applied to PvP, the semi auto user wins by landing more shots than the bolt action user i.e. two headshots, not a headshot and body shot, before the bolt action user is able to land one (winner of such a duel would be the one who had superior movement and aim).

In theory, a weapon like the Surge Bolter fills a neat niche in the sniper category (highly mobile, quick-firing, high hit radius - a supression sniper), however, as it does twice as much damage as every other semi-auto sniper rifle, to rival that of the bolt action, it goes beyond that niche to something imbalanced. If the Surge Bolter's damage was halved (equal to all other semi-autos) it would still be a valid weapon however there would actually be a tactical choice behind it.

Is the bolt action sniper a better weapon for it's OHK capacity, if you are a good sniper? Yes, as it should be. But the point of the debate is that the Surge Bolter, a semi auto, should not encroach on that OHK territory as confidently as it does (no charge, the Surge Bolter hits equally as hard as a VOT Bolter, harder when charged). Weapons like that lessen the tactical weight of the decisions in your loadouts.

Side Note: It almost seems as if the Surge Bolter and the Particle Repeater had their base damage numbers inadvertently mixed. If that were the case, then the intended Particle Repeater, on a non-charged shot, would do about the same damage as a VOT Bolter, however if you took the time to charge it, and had the accuracy to land the shot, you would get the OHK (as opposed to doing the damage of a semi-auto on a non-charged shot and a bolt action on a charged). My experience with the Particle Repeater is limited so I am not sure how well it accomplishes that job, from what I have seen though, it seems to be less effective at filling that role than the Surge Bolter.

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I believe that you are incorrect about any level of charging will kill in one shot. What your saying is that charging the surge bolter will, even at 0.00000000001 secs, kill anything in one hit? I survived a fully charged surge bolter many times and am pretty sure many people has too.

Really? Don't use some crappy bolt sniper from the vendors. Of course you can't get OHK by using a vendor weapon. You tell me a pro that uses a vendor bolt action weapon to get OHK. I basically did the same thing with a bolt action weapon and got just about the same results as you, but this was before the patch. Now I am for sure, 1000%, that I can one shot anything, except for someone that has rear guard, cellular armor, and a highly capped rhino.

Your other statements are fine though. I can't say anything about your VOT bolter comment cause I've never used that weapon before. Only to sell it however.

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Originally Posted by chilipino

Fully-charged, it'll fire 10 projectiles that do 20% damage each.

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200% damage and a nice spread like a shot gun. If it didn't have that you could probably live from at least one head shot since not all of the spread should hit you. Do all the charge weapons do more damage when charged even if they don't say it? I don't like charge weapons much so I have barely used any besides the Bolter.

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Originally Posted by ironcladtrash

200% damage and a nice spread like a shot gun. If it didn't have that you could probably live from at least one head shot since not all of the spread should hit you. Do all the charge weapons do more damage when charged even if they don't say it? I don't like charge weapons much so I have barely used any besides the Bolter.

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You can survive a fully-charged headshot no problem. If you scope in, the spread is significantly smaller so most if not all the shots should hit. I dueled a clan member last night and told him to stand still. I charged my surge bolter to full, scoped in on his forehead (front side so no rear guard perk protection), and fired. I took all of his shields (a 4.5K ego rhino) down and his health to about 40%.

Most charge weapons do more damage when charged. However, there is one pistol that I think does the same total damage when charged except that the shot is broken up into multiple "bullets" (kinda dumb... I think it's the par-12).

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Originally Posted by chilipino

You can survive a fully-charged headshot no problem. If you scope in, the spread is significantly smaller so most if not all the shots should hit. I dueled a clan member last night and told him to stand still. I charged my surge bolter to full, scoped in on his forehead (front side so no rear guard perk protection), and fired. I took all of his shields (a 4.5K ego rhino) down and his health to about 40%.

Most charge weapons do more damage when charged. However, there is one pistol that I think does the same total damage when charged except that the shot is broken up into multiple "bullets" (kinda dumb... I think it's the par-12).

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That shouldn't be possible. I have seen and OSK plenty of people with it. I use defensive perks and a Rhino shield with 1960 capacity and can die from one hit at full health and shields.

Using the Bolter from the vendor as an example (my current level with semi is 12) does 1111 Damage with a 2.8 Crit. 200% from Charge should make 2222 * 2.8 for the Crit for max of 6222.6 damage.

Edit - What you said about the pistol is why I wonder if this does more damage then it should. Some of them say specifically they more damage when charged, others do different things like break up the shot or increase nano chance.

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Originally Posted by Milkandcookies

I believe that you are incorrect about any level of charging will kill in one shot. What your saying is that charging the surge bolter will, even at 0.00000000001 secs, kill anything in one hit? I survived a fully charged surge bolter many times and am pretty sure many people has too.

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There are multiple levels of charge, each level further breaks the projectile apart. By any level, I mean any level where the projectile has broken apart, whether it be into 2 bullets or more. From my testing, on a guy with an Ironclad shield, he died at every level of charge, but not on a non-charged shot.

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Originally Posted by Milkandcookies

Really? Don't use some crappy bolt sniper from the vendors. Of course you can't get OHK by using a vendor weapon. You tell me a pro that uses a vendor bolt action weapon to get OHK. I basically did the same thing with a bolt action weapon and got just about the same results as you, but this was before the patch. Now I am for sure, 1000%, that I can one shot anything, except for someone that has rear guard, cellular armor, and a highly capped rhino.

Your other statements are fine though. I can't say anything about your VOT bolter comment cause I've never used that weapon before. Only to sell it however.

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The Top Notch frontier repeater has a base crit mult of 3.9, with 1512 base damage. That's a 5,897 crit. Unless you get a crit heavy orange or purple sniper rifle you wont get something that equals that crit damage. Mathematically, it is very difficult to survive a crit that large, but possible under certain circumstances (cellular armor, fortified stance, thick skin still takes effect on single shots).

As for Twitch's comment, which vbi semi autos are you talking about? I said VOT Bolter, even though it is entirely a PvE bolt action, but the derailer is entirely a PvP Bolt Action. If you used that, on a person, you would do less damage than a surge bolter. But that would be a tactical decision. Such tactical decisions should be behind every weapon you use, the surge bolter, currently, doesn't have one.

@Vikingkid3
Who is this guy exactly? He's 5k ego right? If so, then wow, can't believe that somehow I survive OSK from a fully charged surge bolter.

Yea I have much higher crit than that and with the new update, wow can't wait to shoot something with my new damage. Someone in my friends list said it went up by 200 damage, so if I add 200x my crit that would equal somewhere around 800-1000 damage more!

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Originally Posted by Vikingkid3

There are multiple levels of charge, each level further breaks the projectile apart. By any level, I mean any level where the projectile has broken apart, whether it be into 2 bullets or more. From my testing, on a guy with an Ironclad shield, he died at every level of charge, but not on a non-charged shot.



The Top Notch frontier repeater has a base crit mult of 3.9, with 1512 base damage. That's a 5,897 crit. Unless you get a crit heavy orange or purple sniper rifle you wont get something that equals that crit damage. Mathematically, it is very difficult to survive a crit that large, but possible under certain circumstances (cellular armor, fortified stance, thick skin still takes effect on single shots).

As for Twitch's comment, which vbi semi autos are you talking about? I said VOT Bolter, even though it is entirely a PvE bolt action, but the derailer is entirely a PvP Bolt Action. If you used that, on a person, you would do less damage than a surge bolter. But that would be a tactical decision. Such tactical decisions should be behind every weapon you use, the surge bolter, currently, doesn't have one.

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I was talking about both non charge VBI semi sniper. Though it doesn't say it in the description you would have known that if you actually tested them.
The vot bolter is not a PvE specific weapon I think your thinking of the meteor bolt.

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Originally Posted by twitch reflex

I was talking about both non charge VBI semi sniper. Though it doesn't say it in the description you would have known that if you actually tested them.
The vot bolter is not a PvE specific weapon I think your thinking of the meteor bolt.

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When you say test the dps, are you referring to dps against mobs or people? I've been referring to PvP and kills on players exclusively. I'm throwing a quick video together to demonstrate how many extra shots it takes to kill a person with any other semi auto, compared to the Surge Bolter. So far it's two headshots and a body shot for all semi-autos vs 1 headshot and a body shot with the surge (I have not been including the OHK on quarter charge, even though that potential alone imbalances the surge bolter, under the, probably false, assumption that it is an unintentional effect to be fixed later).

As for PvE, nerfing the surge bolter's damage isn't a big loss. PvE is easy enough as it is, throwing a sniper with bolt action damage and semi-auto benefits is just dumbing it down even further.

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Originally Posted by Vikingkid3

When you say test the dps, are you referring to dps against mobs or people? I've been referring to PvP and kills on players exclusively. I'm throwing a quick video together to demonstrate how many extra shots it takes to kill a person with any other semi auto, compared to the Surge Bolter. So far it's two headshots and a body shot for all semi-autos vs 1 headshot and a body shot with the surge (I have not been including the OHK on quarter charge, even though that potential alone imbalances the surge bolter, under the, probably false, assumption that it is an unintentional effect to be fixed later).

As for PvE, nerfing the surge bolter's damage isn't a big loss. PvE is easy enough as it is, throwing a sniper with bolt action damage and semi-auto benefits is just dumbing it down even further.

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It makes no sense to compare a sniper that is meant to be used for PvE with intimidation in PvP. You already showed that your willing to lie and will most likely be biased and unfair when making your video. I already know the things you will do like only show the one shot difference and not the fire rate difference or how its meant to be used. You might as well compare the meteor bolter or derailer on a person to VBI or FRC bolt action sniper and claim the FRC and VBI are overpowered.

Even if you manage to fool some people the develepors will know how the sniper is balanced and will not nerf it in your attempt to twist the truth.