New grenade system is lame as hell

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Originally Posted by Maixx

Not a fan of the new grenade system, the mechanics are fine, I just hate all the F'n around with grenade ammo drops, maintaining a supply before any event.
If they wanted grenades to use ammo then they should have refreshed with ammo box and ammo drops.
Same with time and spikes....

Wonder what the upcoming shield change will have for us...

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I wouldn't be surprised if you will have to start buying batteries to recharge your shield!

Anyway I am fine with the finite supply of nades, but the stack should be increased to 10. Or start at 5 and increase by 2 with each upgrade in rarity. IE:
White = 5
green = 7
blue = 9
purple = 11
orange = 13

They should also be dropped like ammo piles, so they are an autopickup on walking over them. And no longer a usable source for scrip or ark salvage. If that is done they could make the grenade stacks diff rarities, that way if you have a purple cluster and there is an orange cluster around, walking over it will upgrade and refill your clusters.

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Originally Posted by Zugo

I posted a how to when the whole thing went live and it was promptly removed from view. We'll see what happens this time.

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Most of the time I pick up a 'nade <when I have none of that varity> it gets favorited.

• So I run around, grab one of everything,
• Stop,
• Open inventory,
• Scroll to near the bottom of the list.
• Unfavorite a 'nade,
• <list automatically scrolls>,
• Rescroll to 'nades,
• Unfavorite a 'nade,
• <list automatically scrolls>,
• Rescroll to 'nades,
• Unfavorite a 'nade,
• Hit mass breakdown,
• Start again running around picking up one of everything.
• Repeat.

This methods means I have exactly one and only one variety of 'nade equipped in all my loadouts, and it's not always the best one for the job, so I just don't bother using nades at all anymore. And the cumbersome breakdown takes so long that I'm just glad Trick told us this was to help cut down on the amount of time we spend in inventory breaking down stuff, cuz, gosh... the other way was so... you know....
Trick made a point of mentioning in a LiveStream on this subject that we were ArkHunters, and not accountants, so we shouldn't be spending time in the inventory.
Yeah, that's working out as designed....

If I'm lucky, and/or fast, I can actually make it to the next Arkfall in the series before it's over. Otherwise, I make it to a whole lot fewer Arkfalls in the series or I leave a lot of loot on the ground.

And since I frequently am soloing Arkfalls lately, or at best have one other player who just might be counting on a little back-up so THEY don't have to solo it.... And well, with that whole working chat system and all, it's so .... you know.... much of a process to take even MORE time to try to open aNOTHER window to try to communicate intentions with someone who MAY or MAYNOT read the communications some time before an hour from now, because THEY are kinda busy too.

I see a lot of Arkfalls fail now, because we just run out of time. There's nobody on my friends list playing most of the time, and when I get killed at an Arkfall, there's just nobody to port back to. Get killed twice, and you've lost enought time it's barely worth it to drive back for the 3rd time, so most of the time I end up soloing anyway, even if I HAD somebody working with me through the first one or two....

This is about as jekked up as a game can get and still be playable, but hey, it's not like we need:

• Communications with the community to get any sort of a hint that they know there's a problem,
• Have the feeling that they know what the problem is, <it's not like there have been other times when they completely misunderstood the problem we were repeatedly telling them about because they were that unfamiliar with the mechanics of their own game that they hadn't a clue what was being discussed..... for weeks, and weeks.>
• Know that they need to fix the problem,
• Know HOW to fix the problem, and,
• Know that we'd like to know that any of the above even registers on their radar.

I'll bet there is a certain amount of discussion in the boardroom about how all of this will just blow over if we have to just get used to it, or when the next wave of F2P Arkhunters move in to replace us and don't have a clue whats gone on up til now.

I think what Trion failed to realize when they made this new grenade system is that it just discourages the majority of players from using grenades in the first place.

The game went from a weapon firing, nade throwin' spam fest into a number counting annoyance. How was this change even passed?

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Originally Posted by crasher

I'll bet there is a certain amount of discussion in the boardroom about how all of this will just blow over if we have to just get used to it, or when the next wave of F2P Arkhunters move in to replace us and don't have a clue whats gone on up til now.

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They'll still have to deal with a huge inventory list full of favorites that takes far too much time to sort through to find the item they just picked up and a constant flashing "Claim Items" message and have to wonder how long they'll have to deal with it. They will likely also question a giant list of those items in claim and wonder if it's worth the time to sort and break down or waste it all refilling used items when buying them from vendors is so much easier in the grand scheme of things.

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Originally Posted by Halfmystic

How was this change even passed?

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That is a 1,000,000 Scrip question right there...

Because people gripped about the way others were defeating them using grenades.

Seriously, we had the usual bunny hoping cannoeers dominating the shadow wars. The flare gun was a quick cure for that because it caused the area to burn. Bunny hopping was no protection. So the AE effect of the flair gun was removed and effectively made it useless.
So some bunny hopper gripped about people dropping dozens of pyro grenades effectively nullifying the advantage of bunny hopping. And now we are limited to 5.

Simple as that.
All 1 can say one of the devs must be a bunny hopper.

Yet we still have those over the top voltan multihead launchers that white out a screen and drop my FPS to 4.

grenades as a resource? Fine, even great.
Max. stack of 5? Stupid beyond the "insult to stupid people" level.
Somewhere near, "running for Mayor of Toronto?", stupid.

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Originally Posted by Atticus Batman

I wouldn't be surprised if you will have to start buying batteries to recharge your shield!

Anyway I am fine with the finite supply of nades, but the stack should be increased to 10. Or start at 5 and increase by 2 with each upgrade in rarity. IE:
White = 5
green = 7
blue = 9
purple = 11
orange = 13

They should also be dropped like ammo piles, so they are an autopickup on walking over them. And no longer a usable source for scrip or ark salvage. If that is done they could make the grenade stacks diff rarities, that way if you have a purple cluster and there is an orange cluster around, walking over it will upgrade and refill your clusters.

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I'd like to see the # increased based on ego.
Start with 5 and add 1 for each 1k ego.
They already increase in strength with rarity, give us back something ego related.

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Originally Posted by TigrisMorte

grenades as a resource? Fine, even great.
Max. stack of 5? Stupid beyond the "insult to stupid people" level.
Somewhere near, "running for Mayor of Toronto?", stupid.

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Lmao...oh Ford, you and your exploits have even made their way to the Defiance forums.

The grenade change is one of the reasons why I got rid of this poor excuse of a game, just like you said why the hell do they have to change something that's working fine, I don't have any ideas that I want to mention here but I do have a few ideas in mind though.

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Originally Posted by Halfmystic

I think what Trion failed to realize when they made this new grenade system is that it just discourages the majority of players from using grenades in the first place.

The game went from a weapon firing, nade throwin' spam fest into a number counting annoyance. How was this change even passed?

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I'll tell you how it was passed. There is a thread even longer than this one about the then-upcoming grenade system rework as experienced by alpha test server players. 98% of them told Trion how bad it was, and that it should be cancelled, because nobody even asked for a change in the first place. Other agreed based on their reports.

Then Trion made the change.

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Originally Posted by Halfmystic

How was this change even passed?

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This change came from the people who thought bringing up a large chat box in the middle of battle that damn near guarantees death is a good idea...and you're wondering how it could have passed?

So here are some of my thoughts on the Grenade changes (some of these we saw coming a mile away and others were rather unpleasant surprises):

• It has 100% changed the way I use grenades – I just don’t use them. In fact, the only time I throw a single nade is when I see a frag nade refill laying on the ground mocking me.
  
  
• I’ve come to avoid weapons with the “15% Grenade DMG on kill” roll (in spite of the fact that the roll is currently bugged and results in a 15% Damage increase on kill to both your weapon and nade – this should likely be fixed by Trion since we players like it.)
  
  
• Grenadier Weapons are like Quartermaster weapons now, useful for the first two stats and throw away the last two.
  
  
• I have not once purchased a grenade refill from a vendor; I don’t plan to either. Why should I refill grenades? To ensure that I can have one more drop littering the ground that I can’t pick up? Besides, if I wanted to refill I have over 50 Frag Grenade refills in my Claims, which leads me to…
  
  
• I have over 160 items in my Claims Section that I would like nothing more than to break down – useless schtako. I imagine I will eventually ignore this section 100% and let things stack and stack.
  
  
• My old orange Frag Grenade was a 0.0 Det time beast that gave no enemy group a chance to counter – now? A 0.5 Det time grenade gives them just enough time to roll away to the “Minimum Damage” zone – which incidentally is over 800 points less damage than my old grenade.
  
  
• The old grenade system was fantastic. Making our grenades connected to our perks, weapons, and shields made them feel like part of our arsenal – depending on the loadout one could be a true “Grenadier” if one chose. With the old system seeking the best grenade was a challenge, acquiring it a feat and pulling it from a lockbox – nigh impossible. The old mechanic was carefully woven into the game by the true developers of this game. The new system is laughable by comparison.

So Trion, I’d love to ask (and get an answer) to two questions:

1. Are these the intended behaviors you wished to foster with your Grenade Mechanic change?

2. Do you believe this New Grenade Mechanic is an improvement to the former system?

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Originally Posted by crasher

Most of the time I pick up a 'nade <when I have none of that varity> it gets favorited.

• So I run around, grab one of everything,
• Stop,
• Open inventory,
• Scroll to near the bottom of the list.
• Unfavorite a 'nade,
• <list automatically scrolls>,
• Rescroll to 'nades,
• Unfavorite a 'nade,
• <list automatically scrolls>,
• Rescroll to 'nades,
• Unfavorite a 'nade,
• Hit mass breakdown,
• Start again running around picking up one of everything.
• Repeat.

This methods means I have exactly one and only one variety of 'nade equipped in all my loadouts, and it's not always the best one for the job, so I just don't bother using nades at all anymore. And the cumbersome breakdown takes so long that I'm just glad Trick told us this was to help cut down on the amount of time we spend in inventory breaking down stuff, cuz, gosh... the other way was so... you know....
Trick made a point of mentioning in a LiveStream on this subject that we were ArkHunters, and not accountants, so we shouldn't be spending time in the inventory.
Yeah, that's working out as designed....

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I wish I knew what triggered that annoying auto-fav action. Try this instead, it's my work around for scrolling the wall of fav items.

• Start
• select grenades
• unfavorite all
• left bumper
• X(mass salvage)
• Start

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Originally Posted by Overtkill21

2. Do you believe this New Grenade Mechanic is an improvement to the former system?[/B]

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And, Trion, if you do believe this is better, please explain it in such a way that we can begin to understand how the good outweighs the bad. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Overtkill21

So here are some of my thoughts on the Grenade changes (some of these we saw coming a mile away and others were rather unpleasant surprises):

• It has 100% changed the way I use grenades – I just don’t use them. In fact, the only time I throw a single nade is when I see a frag nade refill laying on the ground mocking me.
  
  
• I’ve come to avoid weapons with the “15% Grenade DMG on kill” roll (in spite of the fact that the roll is currently bugged and results in a 15% Damage increase on kill to both your weapon and nade – this should likely be fixed by Trion since we players like it.)
  
  
• Grenadier Weapons are like Quartermaster weapons now, useful for the first two stats and throw away the last two.
  
  
• I have not once purchased a grenade refill from a vendor; I don’t plan to either. Why should I refill grenades? To ensure that I can have one more drop littering the ground that I can’t pick up? Besides, if I wanted to refill I have over 50 Frag Grenade refills in my Claims, which leads me to…
  
  
• I have over 160 items in my Claims Section that I would like nothing more than to break down – useless schtako. I imagine I will eventually ignore this section 100% and let things stack and stack.
  
  
• My old orange Frag Grenade was a 0.0 Det time beast that gave no enemy group a chance to counter – now? A 0.5 Det time grenade gives them just enough time to roll away to the “Minimum Damage” zone – which incidentally is over 800 points less damage than my old grenade.
  
  
• The old grenade system was fantastic. Making our grenades connected to our perks, weapons, and shields made them feel like part of our arsenal – depending on the loadout one could be a true “Grenadier” if one chose. With the old system seeking the best grenade was a challenge, acquiring it a feat and pulling it from a lockbox – nigh impossible. The old mechanic was carefully woven into the game by the true developers of this game. The new system is laughable by comparison.

So Trion, I’d love to ask (and get an answer) to two questions:

1. Are these the intended behaviors you wished to foster with your Grenade Mechanic change?

2. Do you believe this New Grenade Mechanic is an improvement to the former system?

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Well said.
Well said.

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Originally Posted by Bonehead

I'm on pc so the ui is a bit different but I try to do the same thing.I only use frags anymore.
The thing is I have never seen another game that clutters up the landscape with so many pointless and unusable drops.It's bush league game design IMHO and what about the totally sclerotic claims section? It is an ungainly mess left by lazy and shortsighted game design.

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I was at a seige at Diablo today by myself. After 5 minutes with my Big Boomer, I had to stop. There was so much stuff on the ground, I was affraid I would lag out. 55k in 5 minutes, got a blue Birdshot and purple grenade went to claims.

They went from a simple system with a variable stats grenade to a overly complex system with standardized stat grenade.

This was needed because of all the complaints about the loot being not varied enough ?

Most of the other changes to weapons in this game have been the opposite direction towards more variations in the stats, now that was a change players liked.

They shouldn't be a bit surprised at the reaction to the waste of dev time on changes of things that were working fine before, while there are so many other things that are still not working correctly, ie chat.

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Originally Posted by Manstan

Because people gripped about the way others were defeating them using grenades.

Seriously, we had the usual bunny hoping cannoeers dominating the shadow wars. The flare gun was a quick cure for that because it caused the area to burn. Bunny hopping was no protection. So the AE effect of the flair gun was removed and effectively made it useless.
So some bunny hopper gripped about people dropping dozens of pyro grenades effectively nullifying the advantage of bunny hopping. And now we are limited to 5.

Simple as that.
All 1 can say one of the devs must be a bunny hopper.

Yet we still have those over the top voltan multihead launchers that white out a screen and drop my FPS to 4.

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So you're telling me it is again because of the ******* PvP ****** bags that we PvE'rs get screwed. Happen in every ******* games, smallest crowd cry the loudest and get the devs to change the mechanic in disfavour of silent majority.

Well I will do as I did in all those moronic games, leave and find something else.

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Originally Posted by Ultack

So you're telling me it is again because of the ******* PvP ****** bags that we PvE'rs get screwed. Happen in every ******* games, smallest crowd cry the loudest and get the devs to change the mechanic in disfavour of silent majority.

Well I will do as I did in all those moronic games, leave and find something else.

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I don't remember PvP being mentioned as a reason for the grenade change.

I remember a lot of nonsense being spewed about us missing too much with grenades, not using enough variety, and some garbage about risk reward.

(None of which was actually addressed by the grenade change btw - hilarious to me, but I frequently find things funny that may not be)

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Originally Posted by Overtkill21

I don't remember PvP being mentioned as a reason for the grenade change.

I remember a lot of nonsense being spewed about us missing too much with grenades, not using enough variety, and some garbage about risk reward.

(None of which was actually addressed by the grenade change btw - hilarious to me, but I frequently find things funny that may not be)

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No dude it's funny.
Funny and sad.

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Originally Posted by Holy Bahamut3

Don't we all... But they don't listen.

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If you replaced 'listen' with 'care', you'd be 100% correct.

Sadly this was an affliction they developed during Alpha and never managed to cure themselves of. I haven't played since mid summer, yet coming back today, I see some of the same bugs we encountered during the Alpha test that still haven't been addressed, yet somehow they thought expending resources on 'fixing' grenades was a logical development decision.

There are numerous issues they should have been addressing in order to improve the game. Grenades apparently were more important than fixing the chat system, fixing the nearly non-existent economy (They went backwards on that one), correcting bugs with random spawns that have persisted since Alpha, etc...

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Originally Posted by Albion

I hate the new grenade system too (is there one person anywhere that likes it?)

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I do. I actually find myself throwing a crapton more grenades now than when I did before. I basically have an unlimited supply at this point because of the claims window and the up in drops, which is enhanced by the shorter cool down time. The only issue I have is that, like others, I have a long list of claim items for 'nades that I don't usually use, but can't get rid of because I have orange versions of those grenades I just can't part with.

The system can certainly use some tweaking in order to limit the amount of useless stuff in claims, but otherwise, I have found the change more preferable than the previous system.

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Originally Posted by Amack

People should not want to salvage grenades, that is not what they are in the game for, and if that is what people have come to begin doing, then the system is flawed in some way.

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90% of loot drops in any game is "vendor trash". That is SOP for the RPG - be it MMO or not. The only reason I am salvaging more grenades now than before is because of they upped the drop rate on 'nades. Beforehand, I would just salvage any that were not better than the current cluster one I was using. Now, I am actually using more of the different types and don't have to waste time Min/Maxing every drop just to see if it is better than the 'nade I currently have.

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Originally Posted by BJWyler

90% of loot drops in any game is "vendor trash". That is SOP for the RPG - be it MMO or not.

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Normally vendor trash would be used by the players to fund upgrades, etc.. Sadly the Defiance team doesn't understand this concept, or what a game economy is. You'd think they'd never worked on an MMO before.