The ongoing Warmaster battle: Back VS Arm

This thread is for NA PC users.Sorry Console, EU people, you must leave now. :p

So until about a month ago PC/NA Warmaster runs were all arm runs. Nilxain developed the method and that was the template for the PC. Win or lose there was little discussion on strategy. PS3 users on the other hand developed the back method.About a month ago there was a push to start using the PS3 method on PC/NA. Ever since this time, Warmaster runs have been a total clusterF***. Split DPS is killing the runs.People refusing to switch to the majority vote is killing WM runs left and right. Even when people have the best intentions and are willing to switch over when they see a split group the time lost is usually fatal.

I'm not sure if we could discuss the problem here and decide a winner but something needs to change.People yelling at each other in /zone after a loss doesn't seem to be helping. Anyone have thoughts on a solution to the war between monkey body parts?

This thread will just bring the argument here instead of zone chat etc. Either method works. It's comes down to teamwork... either you have it or you don't. There is no winning or losing side. Calling it a battle is just a bad idea.

On the bright side though, I just pulled a charge blade out of a tier 4... they do exist!

Targeting the WM's Back, imo, is the better way to go. You don't have to run completely around him to get to the correct side either unless he's facing you and if thats the case you're better off running away since he's likely targeting you.

I've been using Sucker Punch with my Overcharge build and it definitely helps me catch up to everyone's damage count as I lag all the time. That being said, the only complete WM runs I've been on with a PUG has always targeted the WM's Back.

You guys should change it up again and start going for the left arm.

I don't care WTF we shoot, as long as we all work together... it's a sad situation, very sad.

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Originally Posted by QipQip

This thread is for NA PC users.Sorry Console, EU people, you must leave now. :p

So until about a month ago PC/NA Warmaster runs were all arm runs. Nilxain developed the method and that was the template for the PC. Win or lose there was little discussion on strategy. PS3 users on the other hand developed the back method.About a month ago there was a push to start using the PS3 method on PC/NA. Ever since this time, Warmaster runs have been a total clusterF***. Split DPS is killing the runs.People refusing to switch to the majority vote is killing WM runs left and right. Even when people have the best intentions and are willing to switch over when they see a split group the time lost is usually fatal.

I'm not sure if we could discuss the problem here and decide a winner but something needs to change.People yelling at each other in /zone after a loss doesn't seem to be helping. Anyone have thoughts on a solution to the war between monkey body parts?

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I think we've been in a few PUG kill groups together. Often there are still enough people targeting the same target (usually the back) to kill the Warmaster but it has been ridiculously close to the end of the timer in many of them.

I don't think you're going to find consensus among the player community. Some players are convinced that the back is the way to go. I go with what the majority decides, but the right arm is really the most egalitarian way to go in terms of what players need in their loadout. It's infinitely more forgiving about perk loadout because the advantage gained is largely based simply on the exponentially greater critical damage any player with any perk loadout can inflict on the arm when he is knocked off the wall and goes into his laser phase afterwards. You can barely do any damage to the back during the laser phase.

The back advantage is highly reliant on perk loadout. You have to have Sucker Punch which many lower EGO rating players won't have, and you have to have a fair amount of damage mitigation perks for the burn phase which again many lower EGO rating players aren't going to have. Even with a protection spike up a lot of them will get downed if they're in the blast radius of a second bomb.

I know some players will talk about how it is possible to have the perks at a low EGO rating but that completely ignores the reality that players are going to invest perk points based on the way they want to play the majority of the game not just one event. It's completely unrealistic to think a player who is not vested in that build outside the Warmaster Chamber is going to pay for two perk resets every time they do a Major Arbreak. There is no advantage to shooting the back for those players and lost opportunity to do damage for them if the group is not targeting the right arm.

Ultimately the only consensus we can hope for is that the group must target the same piece of armor and that to go against the majority is harmful and shouldn't be done regardless of what the player's personal preference is. If I can do it, and more often than not I am doing it, then so can everyone else. To do otherwise is just selfish.

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Originally Posted by Deunan

egalitarian

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Someone else is bound to need this besides me.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/egalitarian

Pretty much what the others have said. It does no good to argue which is better as they both have certain advantages, what needs to happen is for players to swallow their pride and essentially give into what the majority is doing (yeah your mom always said not to give into peer pressure but we won't tell ;)). If people refuse to work together, you will almost never beat him.

As the saying goes, we need to fight together or die alone (well no one is dying but you get the idea).

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Originally Posted by Deunan

I think we've been in a few PUG kill groups together. Often there are still enough people targeting the same target (usually the back) to kill the Warmaster but it has been ridiculously close to the end of the timer in many of them.

I don't think you're going to find consensus among the player community. Some players are convinced that the back is the way to go. I go with what the majority decides, but the right arm is really the most egalitarian way to go in terms of what players need in their loadout. It's infinitely more forgiving about perk loadout because the advantage gained is largely based simply on the exponentially greater critical damage any player with any perk loadout can inflict on the arm when he is knocked off the wall and goes into his laser phase afterwards. You can barely do any damage to the back during the laser phase.

The back advantage is highly reliant on perk loadout. You have to have Sucker Punch which many lower EGO rating players won't have, and you have to have a fair amount of damage mitigation perks for the burn phase which again many lower EGO rating players aren't going to have. Even with a protection spike up a lot of them will get downed if they're in the blast radius of a second bomb.

I know some players will talk about how it is possible to have the perks at a low EGO rating but that completely ignores the reality that players are going to invest perk points based on the way they want to play the majority of the game not just one event. It's completely unrealistic to think a player who is not vested in that build outside the Warmaster Chamber is going to pay for two perk resets every time they do a Major Arbreak. There is no advantage to shooting the back for those players and lost opportunity to do damage for them if the group is not targeting the right arm.

Ultimately the only consensus we can hope for is that the group must target the same piece of armor and that to go against the majority is harmful and shouldn't be done regardless of what the player's personal preference is. If I can do it, and more often than not I am doing it, then so can everyone else. To do otherwise is just selfish.

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People using effective perks against the warmaster is not at unrealistic like you claim most people already do use effective perks. Both the arm and back benefit from effective perks thought the back does more which is better its not the only reason. The other huge reason why the back is more efficient is because of DPS increase of more people benefiting from the spikes. This means no one is running to get ammo less people dying and more DPS. Their are other benefits to shooting the back also like it being a bigger target and its only one piece of armor vs two in the arms.

Regarding Volge weapons if people were shooting the back it would lead to three posobilities which are all beneficial.
1 People will stop using them and use something more effective.
2 They wil help break the armor faster which will increase the groups DPS.
3 They will continue shooting the right arm to get a crit while he hangs and will not blind the rest of the players and less people miss.

About the perks again, its realistic that people can respec their points and want to use effective perks. The difference between perks in shooting the back over the arm is 2 that's not infinetly more forgiving especially when those two perks can also benefit from shooting the arm and actually a lot people including myself have them equiped while shooting the right arm. The only difference you benefit from substantially more while shooting the back because your always getting the bonus damage from sucker punch shooting the back vs the arm which you only benefit from it if you have the right angle. If a new player is not using effective perks it its true there's no advatantage for that person but only that specific person not the group as a whole. It is still better to shoot the back because of the people who are using effective perks. If someone does not use effective perks it does not mean more damage to the arm or back based on that alone, but it does mean more damage for the rest of the group who is using effective perk and shooting the back. I don't see how people not using effective perks that are really easy to obtain is an argument against the back since their are effective perks for the arm as well.

I'll explain again how a low ego player can unlock both cloak and over charge which will give you access to the most usefull perks for anything in this game. First you have to enter the codes in the defiance website which will unlock the scavenger perk. Then just put a point into cloak the accept.then put a cloak into thick sinned then overcharge.

However it is better to just go with what the majority of people are shooting. Though I beleive shooting the back is better I don't think trying to switch is not worth the problem that is causing people to shoot different parts. The arm works fine enough that we don't need to switch. Getting people to try to switch is going to cause problems and more warmaster fails.

blah blah blah..shoot heavy assault rifles at the good part of the crystal. not the upper crit spot while he is hanging. its just a distraction. have one of your buddies dedicate to shooting a particle ultimag with toxic. the whole time. doesnt matter where he shoots the monkey. left arm, right arm, back. as long as you get numbers. it will multiply the damage in 3 stages. have 2 ppl use ultimags for maximum "green" effect. when crystal pops pull out wolf or high crit weapon. NO TYPOONS. NO TYPHOONS. a blue wolf with or without crit and a heavy can put up 2 mil+ damage. if you dont have a good heavy. top notch vendor has one of the best weapons in the game. frontier battle rifle. its nasty. trust me. its what i used until i bought a heavy better than that. if everyone used a heavy (except for the ultimaggers) and a wolf (even a blue one...heck even a green or white..lol.. seriously) WARMASTER WOULD DIE EVERY TIME..EVERY TIME..without fail..thats how you kill a monkey...we can go in 6 or 7 deep using that method even with all the dummies using typhoons and still kill him.. thats how its done.. doesnt need anymore discussion..

oops. i forgot to add. my heavy hits for 668 or something juiced and spiked. when ultimags start to do their job it goes to 850+ then 1050 or so. with a solid 1170 until the green effect cools down a bit. never going back under 850. if 2 ppl are using ultimag it stays in the 1100s. just rippin. crystal pops at 5 min mark. now my wolf hits for 5500 or so crouched, juiced, and spiked. when the greenin starts it jumps to 7k or so then 9k . it gets into the 10s 11s and 12s. shield drops and it gets 13s 15s. iv hit for 17s before with my wolf. its definitive. thats how its done. particle ultimag is really the deal breaker. i have scord 1mil with just an ultimag. K

Topic isnt worth debating, the back has a bigger surface area, its easier to hit, hitting behind enemy has a crit bonus perk, etc etc


Oh and you dont end up forgetting which arm it is that your shooting at.

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Originally Posted by MahChew

Topic isnt worth debating, the back has a bigger surface area, its easier to hit, hitting behind enemy has a crit bonus perk, etc etc


Oh and you dont end up forgetting which arm it is that your shooting at.

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Though it's easier not to die in mass trying to cluster altogether up against the wall to get into the small window that's available to shoot it's back while it's hanging. Though it's easier to shoot at it's back while it's on the ground so it's just a trade off, in some ways.


Easier to shoot it's right arm while hanging, since you can spread out more,and difficult at times to position yourself to get a clear window while it's moving around on the ground.


If everyone had suckerpunch equipped or have weapons that get a bonus when shooting at it's back. Then it's back would be best , unless anyone is using volge weapons or bmg's or infector's ...etc.


Either way, everyone should be locked onto the same targeted area, to have a better chance to fell it.


- Halefire -




Personally I think we should try other body parts... like it's left Big Toe....






j/k

If you can hit his right nostril it gets x10 crit damage. Just sayin.

I almost forgot you need the nostril crit perk loaded.

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Originally Posted by Telemachus

Though it's easier not to die in mass trying the cluster together up against the wall to get into the window that's available to shoot it's back while it's hanging. Though it's easier to shoot at it's back while it's on the ground so it's just a trade off, in some ways.


Easier to shoot it's right arm while hanging, since you can spread out more,and difficult at times to position yourself to get a clear window while it's moving around on the ground.


If everyone had suckerpunch equipped or have weapons that get a bonus when shooting at it's back. Then it's back would be best.


Either way, everyone should be on the same targeted area to have a better chance to fell it.


- Halefire -

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Its not really a trade because of the damage resistance spike. If people cluster up together and use different spikes you will get less deaths and more DPS. Normally when people switch from shooting the arm to the back you get more deaths. That's because people don't normally use the protection spike. If people were used to the routine of shooting the back their would be less deaths. It's just a misconception that you die more shooting the back, but its because people are used to mostly using damage spikes and spreading out. When they should be using all three spikes and getting together.

Heard a rumor that pillows crit through the armor, though only goose down ones.


Since it's got an allergy to earth foul.

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Originally Posted by twitch reflex

Its not really a trade because of the damage resistance spike. If people cluster up together and use different spikes you will get less deaths and more DPS. Normally when people switch from shooting the arm to the back you get more deaths. That's because people don't normally use the protection spike. If people were used to the routine of shooting the back their would be less deaths. It's just a misconception that you die more shooting the back because people are used to mostly using damage spikes and spreading out. When they should be using all three spikes and getting together.

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Can't even get players to not shoot the locks early or not use the worse types of weapons. How can we expect to coordinate the spikes ?

This thread just can't end good. Newp, not gonna happen.

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Originally Posted by Telemachus

Can't even get players to not shoot the locks early or not use the worse types of weapons. How can we expect to coordinate the spikes ?

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I agree, I don't even think its worth trying to get people to switch since the arm works fine. It would have been better if we started shooting the back over the right arm because there be less people using Volge weapons and people would have been used to the routine but switching now does not seem worth it. The drop rate sucks plus you can get some better weapons from the rep vendors anyways. With the exclusion of certain ones like the zagger.

http://forums.defiance.com/showthrea...armaster+guide

Arm gives the best opportunity for hitting more of the time, otherwise you are spending more of the DPS race running for position to get a shot at the back.

The following are comments from someone who is consistantly under 1mil on the scoreboard, so hit next, or read on as you wish.

Personally, I have high enough ego I will be adding sucker-punch if I dont have it already. From my level of play I cant say one method is a clear winner over the other. Back requires less thought(there's only one back), Arm has the benifit of being readily available during "hang time" Without a doubt when the group decides on one way or the other it works much better (duh). Some of the cleanest, most effective runs I have been involved with were the first 2 where they went for the back. HOWEVER, it felt to me that the success was due to the fact it was a select group of people who knew what they were doing, and how to get it done. And NOT choice of target which made the difference. The fact someone said "hit target x" and they did meant much more than the choice of back over arm.

Actually, I do remember one PUG when Both the back and arm armor broke at about the same time. But we had a bunch of good shooters on that run.

There are +'s and -'S to both.
Shooting the back does give a bigger target but when he hangs, everybody has to bunch up to get crits and usually end up at respawn. If you have problems aiming and running, this is probably the best for you.
Shooting the arm requires you to constantly move to get a shot, but when he hangs its easy crits from a wider angle.
I get more overall damage from the "arm" method and seem to get more and faster wm kills than the back method possibly because I can stay upright longer and send more shots when he hangs.
Go with the flow, the majority rules.. etc.. If everbody is shooting the back - shoot the back. If they are shooting the arm - shoot the arm.
The biggest problem still is getting people to wait for a full room and get them to not use coldfire weapons.

Ok then..

If its a group with random players using coldfire and whatnot...sure shoot the arm =)

But for players who have a strategy and actually use perks and stims correctly, shooting in the back is a no brainer. This is why its possible to kill the monkey with 3 and a half minures remaining...

blah blah blah...read my post. thats how its done

we have killed the monkey with 3 and half remaining... didnt shoot the back.. you wanna know how we did it.. read my post... might have been less. bunch of us have dubl crit wolfs. and nasty heavys. u ever pop the crystal second time up on the wall... we have. with randoms

I may have to give the Heavy AR another try. I know people swear by it, but last time I tried it I didn't enjoy it, and was getting much better results with my full auto AR's. However that was a while ago and I have recently forced myself to level 2 orange semi auto weapons so maybe this time it will go a bit better. Guess I am shopping at Top-Notch tonight.

It's always going to be a numbers thing. If it ain't there, it won't matter where everyone targets. 15% extra damage done over a course of up to 7 minutes CAN make a difference when the numbers ain't there. No 1 spot is a guarantee without a good squad.

I've been in arm kills where we had 3.5 minutes left when he died. The squad we had was overkill.
I've been in arm fails where the top 4 had about 10m damage between them. We can only carry so much.

I've been in back kills where we had 24 second armor breaks and 4 minutes left when he died. The squad we had was overkill.
I've been in back fails where I personally did 4.6m damage of the 10m done by the top 4. We can only carry so much.

Edit: Also, I use a SMG/Pistol combo.

I guess that this sums up how I feel about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLpfbcXTeo8

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Originally Posted by twitch reflex

However it is better to just go with what the majority of people are shooting. Though I beleive shooting the back is better I don't think trying to switch is not worth the problem that is causing people to shoot different parts. The arm works fine enough that we don't need to switch. Getting people to try to switch is going to cause problems and more warmaster fails.

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I don't know if you've been doing any Major Arkfalls lately but we're already beyond that stage. Players have already have switched. Entire groups have switched. More often than not the PUGs I'm in are shooting the back. I've been in PUGs that target the back where the overwhelming majority of the group lines up at the back, breaks the armor in decent time and kills him with plenty of time to spare.

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Originally Posted by mikomi okanaji

we have killed the monkey with 3 and half remaining... didnt shoot the back.. you wanna know how we did it.. read my post... might have been less. bunch of us have dubl crit wolfs. and nasty heavys. u ever pop the crystal second time up on the wall... we have. with randoms

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I've been in PUGs that targeted the back that have broken the back piece before the first hang. You're not going to change the minds of people who believe that the back is better. Per my earlier post we're past that stage. Players need to take a vote in team chat and go with a majority. Ultimately it's irrelevant which is better. Both techniques have been proven to work efficiently but personal player preference has to yield to the majority's choice. Otherwise it may result in failure.

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Originally Posted by Deunan

I don't know if you've been doing any Major Arkfalls lately but we're already beyond that stage. Players have already have switched. Entire groups have switched. More often than not the PUGs I'm in are shooting the back. I've been in PUGs that target the back where the overwhelming majority of the group lines up at the back, breaks the armor in decent time and kills him with plenty of time to spare.

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No i have not done the warmaster lately ive been playing other games. I just log in like once a week to do weekly challenges. Im really just waiting for titanfall and ESO to come out. FYI if you enjoy PvP in this game you will probably like Loadout on steam it plays a lot a like this game just more fast paced.

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Originally Posted by Telemachus

Can't even get players to not shoot the locks early or not use the worse types of weapons. How can we expect to coordinate the spikes ?

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Believe it or not I've been in PUGs where we did have designated protection spike users for the burn phase while targeting the back. Now that chat is updating properly it is easier to coordinate in PUGs.

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Originally Posted by Deunan

Believe it or not I've been in PUGs where we did have designated protection spike users for the burn phase while targeting the back. Now that chat is updating properly it is easier to coordinate in PUGs.

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Thats good, i glad that chat finally works. It just feels a little to late for me at least.

I would suggest the arm. Always the arm. ALWAYS THE ARM!
The one reason I've seen people suggest the back is because of the perk that ups damage you do when behind an enemy. This perk works on the arm too if you're in the right place don'tcha know. I've been more succesful when shooting the arm. More people seem to do it. It is how we started out killing the WM after all. Who started this shoot the back idea has started confusion and probably fails that didn't need to be. We had that guy on farm in PUGS because we all knew to shoot the arm and nothing else. Shoot the correct arm = profit. If it ain't broke don't fix it.