The glass cannon - Or why a 'bug' should be left in game.

So, right now, I and a few others are having fun exploting something that has been marked in 'Known Issues' as a bug.

Normally, I'm eager to see bugs squashed direct, however, this particular bug has opened up a whole new set of builds for players to experiment with.

I speak specifically of:

"Removing shield triggers perk effects that are enabled by having empty shields"

Now, a few of us are making this interesting by running completely shieldless builds to take advantage of 'Survival Instinct' and 'Kill or be Killed' - As this genuinely doesn't harm anyone and is about as high risk-high reward as it gets, could we please NOT have this fixed?

Being able to do high damage and die in a shot or two is both exciting and refreshing, not to mention gives the game a whole different approach to gear and perks.

So, yeah, dual purpose thread.

Go out and give a shieldless build with those two perks a try (Recommend overcharge with overload perk to really make the most of that reload!)

And...Can we keep this, please, Trion? This 'bug' is making for some interesting and strategic gameplay.

Expect a patch in the next day or so....and for something else to get so totally borked it'll force a rollback.

You said the "forbidden word" when it comes to online gaming, so the devs will now make it a priority and take away your scrip, weapons and ego rating while using the 'forbidden word'.

Actually they wont, same as those people who got to keep the Dodge Durango during the "Early Pre Release Sale".

Am i understanding correctly that things that trigger on shield break are staying permanently activated when you have no shield ? Say like thick skinned ?

If so yeah no sorry that needs to be fixed,

If it's just the ones that trigger while you have no shield then i don't know what the actual bug is.
You have no shields so obviously those perks should be active.

It'll only be fixed when it becomes FOTM (Which now it will be so GG Error 404 lol)

They're using deliberate tactics to trigger the effects Pandur, it's the same as other MMO's where you can "bend the rules a bit", prime example is the 55hp Monk Build in Guild Wars used by gold farmers where it's pretty impossible to die if you do it right as the HP regen and various other effects outweigh any damage.

They couldn't fix that as it would have totally screwed up the whole Monk class in that game, and I imagine it would break something in this. (But then I get the impression Trion don't seem to care about breaking things so it will be fixed at the expense of something else)

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Originally Posted by Pandur

Am i understanding correctly that things that trigger on shield break are staying permanently activated when you have no shield ? Say like thick skinned ?

If so yeah no sorry that needs to be fixed,

If it's just the ones that trigger while you have no shield then i don't know what the actual bug is.
You have no shields so obviously those perks should be active.

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Yeah, just the perks where you have no shield. No shield break perks work.

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Originally Posted by Error404

Yeah, just the perks where you have no shield. No shield break perks work.

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I can see someone swapping that round already.

Probably something along the lines of this (I'm no programmer by a long shot as you probably have gathered)

IF:shield=1 and shield_hp=true then shield_break_perks=false
IF:shield=1 and shield_hp=false then shield_break_perks=true
IF:shield=0 then shield_break_perks=false

I wouldn't really call this a bug, since the perks are performing just as advertised. Unintended consequence is probably more accurate, and I too kind of wish this will stay.

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Originally Posted by Pandur

Am i understanding correctly that things that trigger on shield break are staying permanently activated when you have no shield ? Say like thick skinned ?...

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This is exactly what's happening. I don't think it was intended nor is it a good element of gameplay. You aren't a glass cannon by any means, there are ACTUAL builds for that, using this Oversight in programming with the right perks makes you downright invincible and capable of having things like a +45% Crit Multiplier at all time.

This isn't cool at all actually and it shouldn't stay.

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Originally Posted by Overtkill21

This is exactly what's happening. I don't think it was intended nor is it a good element of gameplay. You aren't a glass cannon by any means, there are ACTUAL builds for that, using this Oversight in programming with the right perks makes you downright invincible and capable of having things like a +45% Crit Multiplier at all time.

This isn't cool at all actually and it shouldn't stay.

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What about thick skinned too? (Can't test it out at the moment). I am with you it should be fixed.
It does sound like a cool new strategy to run with out a shield. Except for the fact there are too many ways this could be taken advantage of and exploited, especially for PVP.

people have already said it doesn't work with thick skinned or any other skill that says "on a shield break", you basically get the critical and reload up and that's it.

I think it was intentional. When you have perks like thick skinned, risk taker, and escape artist, you have a pattern. They knew they wanted those on shield break. When they came up with survival instinct and kill or be killed, I think they had borderlands in mind. There is no question that borderlands has influenced this game and what does that game have? They have skills that work without a shield. They even came out with the rough rider shield. A shield without a shield. I believe the dev team wanted to mimic but never got around to making one. The only ones who came claim it was intentional or not is the dev team. Unless we can get a confirmation about it, we can only argue whether or not it is working as intended.


That said, I don't believe this is bad for the game. If thick skinned and any other perk that has shield break requirements does work, then I believe it is a bug.

These 3 EGO Perks:

• Kill or Be Killed: You deal more critical damage when your shields are empty (+45% Crit Mult)
• Nothing to Lose: You deal more melee damage when your shields are down (+30% Melee DMG) - which you can then stack with Weapon bonuses that are identical.
• Survival Instinct: You reload faster when your shields are empty (+45% Reload)

Appear to be the only 3 affected then.

How does this work? Please elaborate. Im all for high risk high reward.

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Originally Posted by DopedGoat

How does this work? Please elaborate. Im all for high risk high reward.

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Don't equip a shield, get bonuses to crit, reload and melee.

Oh sweet yeah.

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Originally Posted by Error404

So, right now, I and a few others are having fun exploting something that has been marked in 'Known Issues' as a bug.

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Yup, this is the risk of publishing a transparent known issues list. However, this is indeed a bug and one we have slated to be fixed in our next hotfix (or two if we get one out later today).

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Originally Posted by Scapes

Yup, this is the risk of publishing a transparent known issues list. However, this is indeed a bug and one we have slated to be fixed in our next hotfix (or two if we get one out later today).

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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/eaHgfhd6j7E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Originally Posted by ironcladtrash

What about thick skinned too? (Can't test it out at the moment). I am with you it should be fixed.
It does sound like a cool new strategy to run with out a shield. Except for the fact there are too many ways this could be taken advantage of and exploited, especially for PVP.

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There is a grand total of THREE perks this works with. THREE.

Survival Instinct - 45% reload whilst shield down.
Kill or be Killed - 45% crit whilst shield down
Nothing to lose - 30% meleee damage whilst shield down.

There is no 'invincibility' or even 'near invincibility' as no 'On shield break' perks work as...Well, you don't have a shield TOO break, or even recharge...

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Originally Posted by Scapes

Yup, this is the risk of publishing a transparent known issues list. However, this is indeed a bug and one we have slated to be fixed in our next hotfix (or two if we get one out later today).

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How is it a bug when it's working exactly as intended? All the devs are doing in this case is pulling another 'Grenades' on us.

Something is working perfectly fine and AS INTENDED (for once!) and y'all gonna **** it up.

Something fun? Patched in seconds.

Game breaking as hell? Still in since the game started. Makes no sense. At all.

I have to agree with Error on this.

How is this considered a bug? The perks work the way they are supposed to. If a person chooses to run without a shield, they should not be punished for that choice.

The same could be said for the Zagger/Blur issues which have either been ignored or said that it was "proper use of game mechanics}.

Scapes, this decision is hypocritical to everything we have been told in the past several months. "Proper use of game mechanics". Leave it be.

This is an outrage to everyone who plays the game. How can you call it a bug if it is working as intended. I don't believe you or any member of the dev team. Sorry but you created the perks in the game and worded it how it should work. You patch this and it will remove all doubts that trion is a joke of a gaming company.

Maybe at the base of things it just 3 perks for this but when adding other perks to the mix it is much more. Just not 3.

If a player likes using builds like this there is nothing stopping anyone from using a Tachyon or Rhino shields to stretch these effects as intended.

And I know about BMG refilling ppl shields and stops that from happing sometimes but having players being in a constant state of hitting 100k+ crits is not the answer. Although I think this bug is cool I am happy to hear that Trion is not leaving another improper function as is.

This is great. Seriously high risk high reward. Please keep it this way.

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Originally Posted by Error404

How is it a bug when it's working exactly as intended?

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It's not working as intended.

Kiil or Be Killed - "You deal more damage when your shields are empty"
Nothing to Loose - "You deal more melee damage when your shields are down"
Survival Instince - " You reload faster when your shields are empty"

Implicit in these descriptions is that you have to have a shield to empty or go down. That's the way the English language works. Words and syntax like this have fixed meaning whether some players like it or not.

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Originally Posted by DopedGoat

This is great. Seriously high risk high reward. Please keep it this way.

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Its not as clean cut as that. When it comes down to taking everything into consideration that can be used with this the rewards greatly out match the risk factor.

Yeah, I have to say - while I originally thought this affected the "on break" perks and would thus be a much, much bigger issue - it is still a broken mechanic that is the result of yet another oversight in programming.

As such, much like the Rarity Upgrade to Gunslinger weapons, this needs to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Overtkill21

Yeah, I have to say - while I originally thought this affected the "on break" perks and would thus be a much, much bigger issue - it is still a broken mechanic that is the result of yet another oversight in programming.

As such, much like the Rarity Upgrade to Gunslinger weapons, this needs to be fixed.

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Can near guarantee that won't be fixed. - It's something we want.

I also support leaving this in. I like the whole "Risk vs Reward" aspect.

This isn't a bug, Scapes. Don't "fix" it.

Just tried this loadout...it's really tough to stay alive with! Even with my double crit syphon stalker, makes it tough to take on more than one enemy at a time...but kind of fun, I have to agree on that point...

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Originally Posted by Deunan

It's not working as intended.

Kiil or Be Killed - "You deal more damage when your shields are empty"
Nothing to Loose - "You deal more melee damage when your shields are down"
Survival Instince - " You reload faster when your shields are empty"

Implicit in these descriptions is that you have to have a shield to empty or go down. That's the way the English language works. Words and syntax like this have fixed meaning whether some players like it or not.

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Sounds like a bug to me. All those things indicate that you'd have to have a shield equipped before they activate when it's down.

That being said, while I don't normally play a glass cannon type build, they can be fun and rewarding for certain instances. Highly skilled players can be amazing with a GC build, and at one point this game had a horizontal progression and was all about skill.

So in one way I agree, Trion should either fix it or change the verbage to agree with it's use. But IMO there's a place for the glass cannon in this kind of game. But anyone using one should beware, if you run one and you're not good enough people will get very tired of reviving you just so you can top the scoreboard.