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LMG has 500 ammo, 85 clip and does 400 a shot, roughly.
They have good range and no recoil. The only downside is Very long/Long range and if ya hold down the trigger too long the fire cone widens.
No other weapon seems to come close in raw damage over time.
I know other ones have utility and are better in situations, aka shotguns or sniper rifles.
What am I missing here?
SAW has horrible recoil and bloom, Thunder simply can't hit anything until half of magazine is depleted, disruptor has ridiculous 1k DPS, *another* LMG (don't remember name) can't hit human-sized targets beyond 50m.
Still SAW is most effective weapon in PvE. Probably it will be nerfed in upcoming patches and will be as useless as disruptor and Thunder.
The SAW is amazing in some situations and terrible in others - depending on how you mod it. I think it shines brightest when it comes to burning down something like a Forge or Bulwark - its very good at shredding large, high hitpoint targets. Its effective against normal troops but there are more efficient weapons for taking them down quickly.
Not very effective against weakpoints, and most of the tougher enemies need to be hit in weakpoints. Blacklungs and Hulkers are some of the rare exceptions.
I personally use a TACC assault rifle w/ siphon and a pumpy shotty w/ fire (my alternate loadout replaces that shotty with another shotty w/ acid). TACC rifle does the same damage per round, 45 round magazine with extended mags with much superior accuracy and range. The gun basically gets zero damage dropoff with range.
The bloom is an issue, but if you use Overcharge, then recoil's no problem at all. Not to mention if you stop firing at all, the cone of fire instantly resets no matter what. So while you can't hold the trigger down like some SMGs, if you use controlled bursts, you can be extremely effective with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pasha
I've used the LMG SAW with lightning element, from the beginning to the end of what's available right now. The only reason I would use any other weapon is simply to try them out, however, I would have to say the SAW is the best weapon as of now for pretty much anything you want to do (except PvP which is a shotgun spam fest).
I've tried using different weapons, but in the end, nothing could compare to what I actually found at the very beginning, which is actually kind of sad, because I was Ego Rating like 30 maybe, and used the SAW until I finished what Defiance has to offer right now (through story missions, not sidequests), which brought me to Ego Raiting 280-ish.
Right now though, the LMG actually seems like it's where it should be in my opinion, it strong, not a super fast rate of fire, and you're not essentially able to snipe out enemies using it. If anything, other weapon types should actually be enhanced, and built around this weapon, for example, an Assault Rifle could see a little more damage, with more accuracy then it has as of now, shotguns could have their damage increases slightly PvE, and definitely should see a nerf PvP wise. I'm tired of always having to use a shotgun myself in PvP, just in order to play, and so on.
The LMG seems to actually be what I would actually expect out of this weapon type. Other weapons feel a bit sloppy, and could definitely use some improvement.
The one thing I will say though, is an LMG is incredibly poor up close firing from the hip. If an enemy is standing directly in front of me, and my LMG is missing almost every shot firing from the hip, something is wrong with that picture. The hip fire spread should be lowered, at least within a certain couple feet of the actually player. There's no way any gun could miss that close firing from the hip.
in terms of DPS, the SAW is lightyears away from practically every other weapon in the game, BY FAR. and with this, I mean easily ten times better than the rest or more...
I hope the devs take a hard look at this. currently there is no reason to use any weapon other than a SAW in PvE...hell, with a bit of aim you can even use them for sniping...
Pistol > Everything. Seriously, headshots with my pistol drop elites in under 4 seconds in all co-ops, I beat most people by 50% or more when I place first in co-op, 495% critical dmg pistol with 12 mag clip and a fire rate as fast as you can click, always headshoting.. its insane
For weak spots, critical dmg is insane, so insane, getting 12x8000 crits in a row on a forge in scrap yard or w/e.. hectic
overcharge on CD + SAW = +2 million damage during arkfallQuote:
Originally Posted by Greywolf
I even beat guys on cars
Yeah I beat 2mill easy, not even using overcharge
Edit: I prefer decoy but that's just my style, as long as you are doing the right thing, and aiming for weak spots not wasting time killing skitterings or some rubbish.. i fully support you and anyone who knows what they are doing, sick of scrubs not doing their job
your probably one of those guys that just hug the ammo cache and shoot at any critter that is at distance, only stopping to reload.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolf
I do 2m playing properly, you know, chasing and hitting the monarchs and hellion, having to run to the cache and then back to where the monarchs/hellion are, and ignoring the rest of stuff that is absolutly meaningless to the arkfall goal except for artificially inflating the score...
They really need to fix the hellbug arkfall it's boring as **** chasing after that ****ing monarch all day long....Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurze
Worse thing is if someone flinches it with explosives it resets the animation...
So you'll stun it when it goes on its rear legs, someone else uses a rocket launcher and flinches it while its weakness is exposed and it'll go into the flinch animation showing the weak spot for 1sec instead of like 5seconds....
Even if they fix that it's still endlessly boring.
The SAW is stupid effective and makes countless weapons redundant and worthless.
It's Damage/Bullet is one of the highest and is definately the highest for it's Fire Rate. SMGs are terrible by comparison because they do a fraction of the damage for the same ammunition. I can go through 500 ammo in the same time with an LMG and easily kill 10 times the amount of things. The same is true of just about every other Assault Rifle short of the TACC Assault Rifle which with good aim can keep up with the 3 round burst fire. The same goes for just about any other weapon type's inability to keep up. I look at my Clustershot Shotgun (another pretty OP weapon) and I can spit out 3 bullets from the SAW in the same time frame.
People who complain about the recoil/bloom are most likely not using it right. It's very easy to just release fire and bloom instantly resets. With crouching (which you want to do for crit multipliers on weapon and perk) the recoil and bloom is even more under control.
It's going to be the first thing nerfed but because they have so many worthless other weapons in the game it'll just transition to another weapon (most likely the TACC Assault Rifle and then Clustershots). The whole system needs an overhaul and weapon roles more clearly defined and most likely mechanics introduced (such as improved ADS move speed for lighter weapons making your ADS with a SAW crawl along). You can't have a weapon with controllable accuracy, the best damage, massive base clip and expect it to not dominate everything else.
The only downside to the SAW is the headache inducing screen shake because they wanted to set a FOV of -92.
I don't stop to reload? I can do that on the run lol, and no I don't hug the ammo cache, I alternate between my assault rifle and my pistol, soon as I know a mob is going to open up a weak spot i swap and unload until my hearts content, and if monarch is taking too long I swap to my grenade launching sawn off shotgun, and shoot grenades under the monarch that hit the ground, to hit the weak spot from under, that way I don't even need it to roll/arch back to attack or flutter its back flapsQuote:
Originally Posted by Kurze
Greywolf, we play exactly alike.
I use wolfgang pistol for massive hits on weak spots when they open up. The reload is very short which is a plus since you can hit on the weak spots that appear back to back without pause. Alternatively, i have also used semi-auto sniper rifles which is functionally the same.
I use submachines for hellbug archers and times when weak spots aren't present.
I consistently managed top 5 in major Arkfalls
I really don't like LMGs. Accuracy isn't good enough so I stick to assault rifles.
Good to know I am not the only one, my assault rifle has a 53mag clip and fires as fast as an SMG with decent range, good for archers and anything close range on the move, mobs just stare at you, so easy for headshots.. Like 500% crit on a pistol is hectic, "VBI HP-6 Wolfhound" is the pistol I use.. love the name :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wtflag
On a side note: WTB Orange VBI HP-6 Wolfhound with Run-n-Gun Synergy!
Used to run a SAW. The clip size and damage are certainly great on them, but the rate of fire kind of turned me off considering the overall accuracy when compared to some assault rifles.
Might look into those wolfgang pistols. Looted a few but have yet to use one. Currently using an AR/Clusterbomb Detonator.
That is exactly how I use a SAW. I have no problem anti-sniping with it. It's my go-to weapon for ANY situation. My main load out is a SAW for primary and Ground Pounder for secondary. Ground Pounder is my secodary for all my specs. The SAW averages 700-900+ damage a bullet with Overcharge and has zero recoil. Without Overcharge, the farther away a target is the shorter I'll burst fire the gun. Up close, NOTHING has a chance with or without Overcharge. By far, SAW/Ground Pounder is the nastiest weapon combo I've used.Quote:
Originally Posted by NalkorRN
SAWs are very powerful in PvE due to their high DPS. The downside to them is that they have very high recoil and do not handle very well in CQC. They also suck in PvP (if your opponent knows what he's doing).
Yeah I switch to the nade shotty on monarchs as well (Too bad they're bugged and don't work with the explosive skills, otherwise I'd use them all the time). But 500% crit pistol? Highest I've ever seen on a magnum is like 2.5 or 3 (can't remember). Is there some hidden stat I'm not seeing, or is it just the RNG that's been hating me?
@ bold text, I beg to differ. While in theory, the SAW should be much less effective in CQC compared to shotguns or SMGs, that is just not what I'm experiencing. It takes 3-4 times as many shots with a Combat Shotgun (non-Clustershot) at close range to kill an enemy than a SAW. Also I'm skill level 5 with both classes (I should be a higher level with both but I just found out that once a weapon is at max xp you no longer gain xp towards that weapons class level.) The Combat Shotguns (non-Clustershot) and SMGs are the worst ammo eating guns in the game. SMGs should use a different type of ammo and not the same as ARs and LMGs anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by v1ctor
The thing is in PVE enemies have predictable movement patterns whereas in PVP you have to fire from the hip to do dmg. Have you ever tried hitting a fast moving player in CQC with your SAW while firing from the hip?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dikard von Doom
I have recorded a movie of me pistoling down a dark matter apc crew, will have it uploaded soon, goes for about 1min, just gota download movie maker, will give you an ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by WeirdManBoy
my smg has 200 something damage
1.1 reload (faster when i stand still)
40 mag
and fires 5 bullets per button press
i've been using this gun for almost the entire game, i love it
Quote:
Originally Posted by v1ctor
I don't PVP much in this game. That's not why I bought it. I bought it for the large scale PVE. If I want to PVP I'll play Battlefield. With that out of the way, yes I do hip shoot with the SAW. While it certainly isn't as accurate as a shotgun or SMG from the hip that really matter to me. 90% of the time I aim down the sight anyways. Even in CQC. (the SAW MUST have a sight for me.) I get critical kills all day, from any range with a SAW. 2-3 SAW bullets to the head > 48x8 3 times to part face/part body/part air with a combat shotgun. So, yeah, the SAW is better in CQC for me than a non-Clustershot shotgun or SMG. (Clustershot shotties are an excellent secondary for a SAW. The stagger it causes is great for stopping incoming fire at close range.) You probably have a different play style. That might be why you don't like it as much. To each their own really.
Ok so heres the movie using my pistol :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GF9d5a4lAI
Sorry about the quality, made it in like 5min so its pretty atrocious, but gives a good example i think.
Edit: Fighting elite dark matter apc crew
Nice. Pure ownage right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolf
For Raw dps when ammo does not matter nothing will beat a SMG.
(using no perks)
SMG
179 a shot
225 critical area hit
LMG Saw
404 a shot
550 critical area hit
by those numbers the SAW seems better.
Difference is SMG will fire off almost 200 rounds by the time a LMG Saw will get off 85 rounds and reload.
SMG has little to no recoil has a tight CoF hip fire and aimed.
only bad thing is short range(damage drop off) and eats ammo like a kid in a candy store.
LMG Saw is very forgiving with its slow firing speed you miss a few shots does not matter too much, SMG is not forgiving if you miss a few shot you just shot off 1/2 to 3/4th the clip.
SMG like El diablo is pretty menacing.
Thank's , I'm just happy to find a style I like, I love big crit's and i cannot lie! :D love getting 8k's on forge eyeballs tooQuote:
Originally Posted by WeirdManBoy
This thread is exactly what the game is about guys, everyone will have their option and their play style. Is there a right way? Wrong way? Doubtful if you killin' and collecting your scrip and salvage it's a good day.
I use two load outs myself, one is an grenade lobber and LMG combo, the other a pistol and AR combo. I find that in skirmish situations, say 4~6 mobs, the AR and Pistol is acceptable, but when you get into a serious fire fight with like 10+ mobs you need some AOE damage lovin', plus the SAW can lay some impress spread into a group of packed in mobs or the few that get a lil' too close for comfort.
Is it an elegant play style like Greywolf's? No, but I'm still picking you the loot in the end. :D
If I can stand there and shoot, or move slowly and shoot, nothing beats my LMG.
However, once you need mobility the LMG becomes the worst weapon out there.
For nim I had to ditch my LMG and go for Mr El Diablo SMG.
You cant hit anything unless in aim mode, which makes you slow. Your reload time is more than enough time for mobs and especially players to kill you.
Its really all about situation. For situations where you can stand there and just DPS, a good LMG with extended mag cant be beat imo.
Once you get into a situation where you need to be highly mobile, are close quarters with people with shot guns, are long range fighting people with sniper rifles...well LMG doesn't hold up so well.
LMG is fantastic for the slow witted AI mobs though, since you can take down many with one clip, duck for the insanely long reload then drop the rest. That or sitting there on over charge wailing on a boss/crystal...LMG has its role for sure.
Good fight. While I use different guns, I have a somewhat similar play style. Wish I could upload some vids from playing on ps3 but I can't afford the tech. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolf
DETENATORS for me specifically GROUND AND POUND I have yet to see someone take a monarch out faster than me with an lmg six shots to a monarch with my set and that monarch is down
Just thought I'd leave this comment here lol I won't be back
Yeh it is kinda elegant, 6% dmg reduction on reload from pistol, 12% dmg reduction after a kill trait and 6% dmg reduction from cell armor trait, works out to be about 24% dmg reduction after a kill if i'm reloading, makes me a little bit tankierQuote:
Originally Posted by Buruko
I am an smg man myself I have yet to find one better than a blue but I do use and abuse the fire out of them when I get one.
Same here - Assault Rifles give me the range without soaking up huge amounts of ammo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freyar
If I want to deal a lot of damage quickly a close range? Shotty.
Recoil? They have none. A fire blossom yes, if ya hold the trigger down. CqC, I want to love shotguns, the feel good and sound good on paper CqC, yet when I hit a hard grp I CqC with my LMG and do more dmg faster in their face.Quote:
Originally Posted by v1ctor
God this discussions is absurd, just run the dmg values and rate of fire through excel and you'll see that there is not a single weapon who is nearly nigh to the raw dmg of lmgs even if you consider weak spot hits with 1k dmg weapons like snipers and magnums. At point blank range dps wise it's the most op weapon ig. (dps NOT burst this is were shotguns shines)
Yeah you've spike damage but thats it. Your 4-8k hits comes only into play against enemies with tiny hitboxes/short time to shot at them. Against a Monarch for example there is no single weapon which is stronger than an saw. Even with hip fire you hit them with every shot and get them down in like a quarter the time you'll need with an pistol/sniper. Because you can easily strife around them in close quarter and do not get a single hit... It's just absurd one mag(85 rounds) without ever hit an weak spot brings them down to like 20%. Just hit a weak spot for like 1sec and they lose 20-40%. ;>
BUT and this is big.. against human enemies ar, pistols, sniper are they way to go. Lmgs have a way to high spray against them because
A. you can't get to melee range if you're hip firering.
B. Even with exploiting the reaim bug it's way more effective to empty an ar clip/shoot 1-3 times at the head with a sniper/pistol than waste like 20 bullets per kill with an lmgs.
But against Hellbugs there is no other weapon which is that effective, especially against monarchs..