Anyone notice The pay to win? Power grind pay to win.

So everything is based around power. Enhancing weapons give more power - also allows higher power items to drop. This is the only way to build up your power.



Salvaging crates are on sale in cash shop. Pure pay to win.


Ark keys allow you to get items to raise your power. Original rewards drop 100 or more below your current power level. However using arkfall keys grants you items above your power level.
Limit 2 daily from daily grind.


Ark keys are for sale in the cash shop. Pure pay to win.


The entire system was built around these 2 items which they sell in cash shop. Do not support this guys. Do not buy into this. This is the kind of game that is ruining our gaming community.


If they spent more time on content,stability and gameplay rather than trying to get in our wallet harder and faster. This game wouldnt be in this condition. Outfits/vehicles/boost should be more than enough income. Then dlcs and extra classes even more income. There is no reason to sell power in the cash shop. except greed.


This is pure pay to win trash. Do not be fooled. Tell you friends , family , clan mates. Do not support this.

1. They have to make money somehow. 2. It's a free game and since games are meant to be played and not part of real life why is this even an issue? If they do not allow you ark keys by any means outside the store that is a valid argument but isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Elric1

1. They have to make money somehow. 2. It's a free game and since games are meant to be played and not part of real life why is this even an issue? If they do not allow you ark keys by any means outside the store that is a valid argument but isn't it?

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They can make money with out being pay to win. Just have to stop with crappy content and give good updates, listen to players, and have interesting out fits/ vehicles.

no, just play the game and you will see.

If you don't then pay $10k and then you will see.

What are they winning? You can actually PLAY and get anything they're paying for in terms of the "win," right?

Just play the game, Defiance is a marathon, not a sprint race.

I have been using ark keys I earned from contracts and they dropped nothing but underpowered stuff. I haven't been able to gain higher power with those boxes. If you factor in it is like $1.50 a key, never worth it.

reminds me of star wars battle front. anyone else?

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Originally Posted by Chump Norris

What are they winning?

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Same thing I always ask myself whenever I see a thread like this.

Just play the game.

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Originally Posted by The 5 Ds of Death

I have been using ark keys I earned from contracts and they dropped nothing but underpowered stuff. I haven't been able to gain higher power with those boxes. If you factor in it is like $1.50 a key, never worth it.

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you won't. They have higher rarity, not power level. You get more power from loot during arkfall then from two items in last chest, one of which is mod. I suspect this will be the good source for legendary mods, the only one for solo players. But boxes aren't helping to progress to it.

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Originally Posted by Ungodlyomen

So everything is based around power. Enhancing weapons give more power - also allows higher power items to drop. This is the only way to build up your power.



Salvaging crates are on sale in cash shop. Pure pay to win.


Ark keys allow you to get items to raise your power. Original rewards drop 100 or more below your current power level. However using arkfall keys grants you items above your power level.
Limit 2 daily from daily grind.


Ark keys are for sale in the cash shop. Pure pay to win.


The entire system was built around these 2 items which they sell in cash shop. Do not support this guys. Do not buy into this. This is the kind of game that is ruining our gaming community.


If they spent more time on content,stability and gameplay rather than trying to get in our wallet harder and faster. This game wouldnt be in this condition. Outfits/vehicles/boost should be more than enough income. Then dlcs and extra classes even more income. There is no reason to sell power in the cash shop. except greed.


This is pure pay to win trash. Do not be fooled. Tell you friends , family , clan mates. Do not support this.

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believe me how mad i am, i started this game form the time we had to buy it we had to buy DLC,s now they give us the same game with facken new name and what i have to pay again? to win to get better guns and so on. I already paid and lost everything.

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Originally Posted by Elenoe

you won't. They have higher rarity, not power level. You get more power from loot during arkfall then from two items in last chest, one of which is mod. I suspect this will be the good source for legendary mods, the only one for solo players. But boxes aren't helping to progress to it.

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im seeing blues and purples outside the chest. so yea not higher rarity at all. I found one prototype after doing sutro tower. best drop so far and highest power rating wep. sadly i have not found anything close enough to be higher yet. going on 3 days now. basing drops on avg power rating is so bad if you get zone prototype weps cause im forced to grind 50 cores per wep to increase the avg power drop. its imn at the point in game its pay to progress.

Winning what, though? You "level" faster, but the Defiance endgame isn't level 50 or 5000 power or whatever—it's getting the right weapons with the right bonuses and the right mods (and the right synergies, eventually).

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Originally Posted by Ungodlyomen

They can make money with out being pay to win. Just have to stop with crappy content and give good updates, listen to players, and have interesting out fits/ vehicles.

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And the bit in bold / italics is the bit they appear to omit time and time again.

The tricky evil thing is they purposefully keep the key capacity low. Consider. Using your keys at low PL (I'm 2000 and I still consider that Low PL) on the chests seems to be a total waste. The stuff they give you is basically lower powered store gear, but blue. Since the churn is roughly 'that gun you're using now will be outdated and underpowered in 30 minutes or less, depending on your PL gains', so you'll dismantle it for parts anyway, getting a blue gun early isn't really any use related to a green gun of the same type.

Heck if the green gun is a few more points more in PL than the blue one, it tends to be better.

Thus, spending keys is something you do just because you cap out quickly anyway.

But on the other hand, logic seems to indicate, hey...if quality of stuff is largely dependent on my PL, I should bank stuff until higher PL to make it worthwhile. The legendary mods and the like.

Which is why the criminally low key capacity is an intentional design. You can't bank your keys. I mean you can, but that means you lose out every time you earn a new key. So instead if they just gave you 50 capacity or whatever the old one was, My Oldefiance key capacity was like...80-something? You could more reasonably bank keys, maybe spend one or two once in awhile, but largely hold them until you cap out PL 5000 or so, and then buy stuff from chests. That would be value.

This way? They're basically giving you a salvage item, or a hundred-scrip-ish value sell item. Basically with a 'use it or lose it' resource. Which makes it funny when they want to charge what...basically a buck-fifty in real life money if you wanted to buy a key. That's some ballsy stuff :)

Havnt spent any of my bits yet and sitting on 2500+ power.....yep totally pay to win.....*facepalm*

Did you really think that Trion wouldn't find someway to make money since they are releasing this game as a F2P? One way another bills have to be paid nothing is truly free.

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Originally Posted by Elenoe

no, just play the game and you will see.

If you don't then pay $10k and then you will see.

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Gonna award this the most nonsense post on the forum in the last 24 hours.

This is a free to play game surely there will be a grind to get a higher power level plus Trion puts those things in the store for people who want to purchase them not that you have to purchase them just to gain an advantage if your not happy with it quit the game and stop whining like some entitled cry baby

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Originally Posted by Mr NeedIes

Havnt spent any of my bits yet and sitting on 2500+ power.....yep totally pay to win.....*facepalm*

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Same situation for me too. Just over 2500 now and still sitting on my Ultimate Founder pack's bits... I haven't seen how you actually 'Win' by paying. It's more a means to improve power rating progress for those that don't play much or don't mind spending their money.

What's there to WIN anyway? Is there some million dollars in total prize money awarded to the 1st thru 25th players (sort of how golf tournaments distribute their winnings) to get to 5000 power? Hah. No.

Seriously, chill out OP... you either enjoy playing the game or not. Keep it simple. No need to rush a heart attack. There's much improved over-all with 2050 in that you can earn everything in game, compared to the RNG crates from hell in Defiance 2013 which are gone. There's your WIN for F2P folks on a budget. I don't begrudge Trion making money, the company is investing in our fun... they should earn some for putting up with us.

There is no pay to win, power level above 2k is useless besides getting higher rarity gear and slightly more powerful rolls.

Your weapons go up in power every time you get the same weapon on the ground it will be higher then the last so if you're not staying busy your not increasing so stop whining and play ,it's the only way , I haven't payed and I'm over 2000

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Originally Posted by orbiejr91

Your weapons go up in power every time you get the same weapon on the ground it will be higher then the last

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Ummmm... No. That's not how it works. In general, yes. But that's not the mechanism for power progression in 2050.

This is. It's source is Rarnok, he of the Viking Beard and 2050's Weaponmaster dev, for those who don't know.

The game keeps track of your (my term you won't find it in game at all) 'Potential Power'. This is the average of your 2 highest weapons, grenade and shield that you've EVER had in your inventory. This 'Potential Power' then influences the natural spread of all future drop ratings, rarity and condition (star system). So getting Any one of those four items higher, improves the potential of what's to come.

You don't even have to equip or use your highest rated items... just have had them once in inventory, you are even free to dismantle or vendor them, the game still keeps track of your Potential Power. You just have to pick them up.

So like orbiejr91 said... while there's still a programmed variation, the stuff you get improves your power progression. Improve on this by picking up all grenades and shields, new high ratings will keep helping you. Then actively improve your best rated weapons in the enhancement system to keep ranking up your weapons.

Then have fun as you get more powerful with perseverance. You don't NEED to spend money. You can if you want to, to get more salvage or keys or whatever you like. It's your money, your choice. But you don't HAVE to, to progress in 2050.

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Originally Posted by Ungodlyomen

So everything is based around power. Enhancing weapons give more power - also allows higher power items to drop. This is the only way to build up your power.



Salvaging crates are on sale in cash shop. Pure pay to win.


Ark keys allow you to get items to raise your power. Original rewards drop 100 or more below your current power level. However using arkfall keys grants you items above your power level.
Limit 2 daily from daily grind.


Ark keys are for sale in the cash shop. Pure pay to win.


The entire system was built around these 2 items which they sell in cash shop. Do not support this guys. Do not buy into this. This is the kind of game that is ruining our gaming community.


If they spent more time on content,stability and gameplay rather than trying to get in our wallet harder and faster. This game wouldnt be in this condition. Outfits/vehicles/boost should be more than enough income. Then dlcs and extra classes even more income. There is no reason to sell power in the cash shop. except greed.


This is pure pay to win trash. Do not be fooled. Tell you friends , family , clan mates. Do not support this.

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Salvage - Comes from rewards from most quests, dismantling wepons, loot drops from kills, arkfalls, basically from everywhere, no need to buy it can get all the salvage you need. Buying it off the store is paying to skip earning it, it is very plentifull ingame.

Ark Keys - Gaian from missions and from dailys, can get ark keys free every day. Paying skips you time earning them or allows you to get extra. Again is pay2skip. Also is not needed to get power up, i havn't opened a single ark chest today and got plenty of gear upgrades.

Item Power - This one is simple, use the salvage you earned from stuff to upgrade the power level of your guns (green give +100 power blue +150) with your guns upgraded you get higher level shield and grenade and guns since it is based off your total power level. Then wait till you loot higher shields and grenades that match your weon power.

Once done you will get wepons from main story missions that are around your current wepon level since you have now looted shieldand grenade in the same power area as your upgeaded guns. Use salvage to upgrade the two you have chosen to equip from these new drops. They are then higher power level than what you started with. Repeat to gain power.

Using this i went from 1200 to 1600 power today alone without spending a single penny on salvage crates. If you run out of salvage do some side missions or arkfalls to restock.

Classes - Can be bought with rep earned ingame. Pay2skipagain

Now i have my issues with this game, not happy about the early access mess, the queueing for specific instances still not working or the lag, i have even posted on these forums saying that founders deserve compensating for the early access debacle.

But this game is not pay2win, you need to learn what that means. Pay2win is when you can only get things that give you an advantage by paying cash. If they are available ingame free even in a limited per day ammount then it is not pay2win. It is pay2skip because a free player can get exactly the same stuff, it is just that the cash store shopper has bought it to SKIP the farming n get it instantly.

Literally all f2p games have pay2skip items in their cash shop. It is how they earn money without having a sub, without it no profit, no money to pay staff or stuff like running servers, which means no game.

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Originally Posted by Rusah

Salvage - Comes from rewards from quests and arkfalls, no need to buy it can get all the salvage you need. Buying it off the store is paying to skip earning it, it is very plentifull ingame.

Ark Keys - Gaian from missions and from dailys, can get ark keys free every day. Paying skips you time earning them or allows you to get extra. Again is pay2skip.

Item Power - This one is simple, use the salvage you earned from stuff to upgrade the power level of your guns (green give +100 power blue +150) with your guns upgraded you get higher level shield and grenade since it is based off your total power level.

Once done you will get wepons from main story missions that are a bit higher or lower than your current wepon, or random green drops that are a bit lower. Use salvage to upgrade the two you have equipped. They are then higher power level than what you had. Repeat to gain power.

Using this i went from 1200 to 1600 power today alone without spending a single penny on salvage crates.

Now i have my issues with this game, not happy about the early access mess, the queueing for specific instances still not working or the lag, i have even posted on these forums saying that founders deserve compensating for the early access debacle.

But this game is not pay2win, you need to learn what that means. Pay2win is when you can only get things that give you an advantage by paying cash. If they are available ingame free even in a limited ammount then it is not pay2win. It is pay2skip because a free player can get exactly the same stuff, it is just that the cash store shopper has bought it to SKIP the farming n get it instantly.

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Still feels pay to win bruh. Buy more powah!

Defiance has always had a Pay to Win format if you believing leveling up or getting unique items = win.

The reality is that 'pay to win' has always been gracefully done in Defiance. Yes, you will level up slower without paying, but you're never going to actually be at a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by Ungodlyomen

Still feels pay to win bruh. Buy more powah!

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Again not pay2win, as your quotew says MORE powah. Paying to power up faster than others is pay2skip.

If johnny Largewallet buys tons of stuff he gets to max 5k power faster. But i don't pay do it free and get to 5k as well. He payed to get there faster than me but in the end we are both at the same point, literally the deffinition of pay2skip.

Pay2win would be 5k power limit for free players but paying would allow you to go to 6k.

Didn't old defiance sell forge in the cash shop? Just because it's there doesn't mean people are going to buy into it. Just play the game and level up. If someone actually buys that crap, don't see why ppl getn mad about this, whatever don't let it bother you that someone has a higher power before you, power to em I guess. Who cares really?

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Originally Posted by Losobal

The tricky evil thing is they purposefully keep the key capacity low. Consider. Using your keys at low PL (I'm 2000 and I still consider that Low PL) on the chests seems to be a total waste. The stuff they give you is basically lower powered store gear, but blue. Since the churn is roughly 'that gun you're using now will be outdated and underpowered in 30 minutes or less, depending on your PL gains', so you'll dismantle it for parts anyway, getting a blue gun early isn't really any use related to a green gun of the same type.

Heck if the green gun is a few more points more in PL than the blue one, it tends to be better.

Thus, spending keys is something you do just because you cap out quickly anyway.

But on the other hand, logic seems to indicate, hey...if quality of stuff is largely dependent on my PL, I should bank stuff until higher PL to make it worthwhile. The legendary mods and the like.

Which is why the criminally low key capacity is an intentional design. You can't bank your keys. I mean you can, but that means you lose out every time you earn a new key. So instead if they just gave you 50 capacity or whatever the old one was, My Oldefiance key capacity was like...80-something? You could more reasonably bank keys, maybe spend one or two once in awhile, but largely hold them until you cap out PL 5000 or so, and then buy stuff from chests. That would be value.

This way? They're basically giving you a salvage item, or a hundred-scrip-ish value sell item. Basically with a 'use it or lose it' resource. Which makes it funny when they want to charge what...basically a buck-fifty in real life money if you wanted to buy a key. That's some ballsy stuff :)

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I've been selling everything because when we can trade I know I'll need money lol. Atm I have 150k, but would it be a better idea to just dismantle everything? Obviously if it's higher PL, you equip it.

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Originally Posted by Illyios

I've been selling everything because when we can trade I know I'll need money lol. Atm I have 150k, but would it be a better idea to just dismantle everything? Obviously if it's higher PL, you equip it.

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Not sure but i think if u salvage and upgrade ur current gear, will bump up your rating so higher drops.

Ya, that's what I've been doing but without salvaging weapons. Right now I've been upgrading the E Rep AR and having it in both slots.

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Originally Posted by fm0987

Mainly playing again cus ps3 servers were terrible, ps4 seems possibly more potential in that respect. But idk, so far it seems like they've taken all the fun away. The looting is boring and I don't car for the salvage system

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Yes, good description. It does feel like the fun is missing, the skill trees are supa light with the result that everyone playing a class will end up pretty much exactly the same with little variation, where the previous skill trees allowed for theory crafting and a lot of tweaking. It ends up being good for lazy devs, an infantile system for players that will very quickly get boring.

The weapons feel underdone especially the assault rifles. The drops feel over-weighted as I am getting all the weapons I don't use and very rarely getting weapons I do use, I am getting lots of shotguns and detonators and mods for those but hardly any sub machine guns and assault rifles and the occasional rocket launcher. The special ammo drops are all for shotguns and snipers and detonators/rocket launchers, I have had 1 special ammo drop for assault rifles/sub machine guns only and I am now ego 26, the weights need to change Trion.


I agree with you about the salvage system, it is very meh, once again feels like something put in for lazy devs rather than for the players.


The servers feel like rubbish, with a brief fix but log on the next day and they are already drifting back to how they were, possibly due to the time of day and numbers but in this day and age, they should pay more for better servers. Perhaps they can make defiance a mobile app game instead, as that what it feels more like gameplay-wise, they may be able to cope with that better.


The costume system is a joke as no one will get to see you in it, other than yourself, for most of the time, as the servers cant handle it so it shows everyone to be the same, unless you are standing around 1 or two people only.


Frankly, this game feels like its from the 90's, it doesn't feel like its suited to the modern day gamers.

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Originally Posted by Haruchai

Yes, good description. It does feel like the fun is missing, the skill trees are supa light with the result that everyone playing a class will end up pretty much exactly the same with little variation, where the previous skill trees allowed for theory crafting and a lot of tweaking. It ends up being good for lazy devs, an infantile system for players that will very quickly get boring.

The weapons feel underdone especially the assault rifles. The drops feel over-weighted as I am getting all the weapons I don't use and very rarely getting weapons I do use, I am getting lots of shotguns and detonators and mods for those but hardly any sub machine guns and assault rifles and the occasional rocket launcher. The special ammo drops are all for shotguns and snipers and detonators/rocket launchers, I have had 1 special ammo drop for assault rifles/sub machine guns only and I am now ego 26, the weights need to change Trion.


I agree with you about the salvage system, it is very meh, once again feels like something put in for lazy devs rather than for the players.


The servers feel like rubbish, with a brief fix but log on the next day and they are already drifting back to how they were, possibly due to the time of day and numbers but in this day and age, they should pay more for better servers. Perhaps they can make defiance a mobile app game instead, as that what it feels more like gameplay-wise, they may be able to cope with that better.


The costume system is a joke as no one will get to see you in it, other than yourself, for most of the time, as the servers cant handle it so it shows everyone to be the same, unless you are standing around 1 or two people only.


Frankly, this game feels like its from the 90's, it doesn't feel like its suited to the modern day gamers.

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It's like do they even pay people to test this? Would generate a lot more I think if the fun factor was there.

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Originally Posted by fm0987

It's like do they even pay people to test this? Would generate a lot more I think if the fun factor was there.

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The original defiance was fun, but it feels like they looked at what was fun and decided to take it out, perhaps they should have focussed on taking out all the exact same bugs from the original when porting it straight over (so lazy). As to testing, I don't believe its actually done anymore as I would be doubtful that so many bugs apparent when it went live weren't picked up in "beta testing", its insulting, in my opinion to lumber players with so many problems at go-live and it burns so many potential long-term players, but this isn't my first experience with Trion and this seems to be par for the course with them as they tend to take a great game and make it worse over time rather than something that gets built upon to be great and something to get your friends into.


I was excited when I saw they were re-doing Defiance and told my friends about it, now I feel embarrassed by it.

Wow.....Just Wow!
Where to start :

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Originally Posted by Ungodlyomen

So everything is based around power. Enhancing weapons give more power - also allows higher power items to drop. This is the only way to build up your power.

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Every thing here stated is true , but does not support your point. Mobs scale to your PR, So power level does not lock you out of content.

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Originally Posted by Ungodlyomen

Salvaging crates are on sale in cash shop. Pure pay to win.

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Again true, ..... BUT the game is F2P, and is primarily co-op, that said, how do you win at co-op?
But Pay to win, NO! Pay to get to max PR quicker , sure. This only affects the person who buys it, it does not affect you in any way.

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Originally Posted by Ungodlyomen

Ark keys allow you to get items to raise your power. Original rewards drop 100 or more below your current power level. However using arkfall keys grants you items above your power level.
Limit 2 daily from daily grind.
Ark keys are for sale in the cash shop. Pure pay to win.

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3 see point 2....Also its about the trip not the destination. If someone want to pay to save some time, let them

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Originally Posted by Ungodlyomen

The entire system was built around these 2 items which they sell in cash shop. Do not support this guys. Do not buy into this. This is the kind of game that is ruining our gaming community.

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All but the first sentence is an opinion, and negative to boot. (This should be kept to yourself)

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Originally Posted by Ungodlyomen

If they spent more time on content,stability and gameplay rather than trying to get in our wallet harder and faster. This game wouldnt be in this condition. Outfits/vehicles/boost should be more than enough income. Then dlcs and extra classes even more income. There is no reason to sell power in the cash shop. except greed.

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While i agree , they need to work on the technical side, They are barely tiring to get in your wallet, 2 items to accelerate your trip to max PR , which only affects , the buyer. EVERYTHING else is either cosmetic or quality of life. they need to make money somehow.

If the game was PVP oriented it'd be P2W, as gaining power through the cash shop quicker than others who don't buy from it, is giving the buyers an advantage over the non-buyers in PVP, which is what P2W means. There's no P2W in PVE, only Pay for Convenience. That is the definition of P2W right there.

The only thing i do agree on which others have said as well, is that they have been extremely lazy. It feels and look like a copy/pasta from the original. If they wanted to reimagine the game, they should and could have done a much better job given the time they've spent on hyping 2050.

wasnt there pvp in the old defiance?

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Originally Posted by theblackfrog

wasnt there pvp in the old defiance?

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Just small scale, nothing big, and it was flawed. Not a lot of people really did PVP due to the bugs (no pun intended) and other issues.

My only Gripe with the Store, is Inventory, but this is general MMO's I'm speaking about, not Trion in particular, Cosmetics, fine. Vehicles fine, etc etc. But the basics that should never have to be purchased with " Real Cash " Should never be Inventory space. Even in F2P. It's a basic need, and it get's manipulated, by most MMO's out there, Paid and Free to Play. I have no problem with a long grind for stuff ( as long as i enjoy the game ifc ;) ) I'm tired of all this milking that seems to be going on in the modern gaming world.

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Originally Posted by Illyios

Right now I've been upgrading the E Rep AR and having it in both slots.

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Yeahhh... Nooooooooooooooooo. Illyios "Potential Power" doesn't work like that. What you are doing would work in closed beta back in April. Not after open beta in June, when Rarnok changed the system. Potential Power is the average of your 2 highest ever rated guns, grenade and shield. You no longer have to have your highest items in your Loadout, just in your inventory. You can even vendor or dismantle them right after you get a new Higher rated drop and it will still count to influence all your future drops.

If you are neglecting to level a 2nd gun, that low rated 2nd highest gun will slow you down. Sure you've been getting higher drops, slowly. You can do better by ranking up two different weapons now. Putting the same weapon in both primary/secondary does nothing for Power progression anymore. So don't fool yourself, or worse... fool others into thinking it does. And, yes... Trion only told approximately 275 people on a livestream about this, assuming they were paying attention. I put it up on the 2050 General forums, but it too wasn't a sexy a topic for most, roughly a 150 people looked at it and fell off the front page with launch's issues.

You also won't see 'Potential Power' anywhere in the game. But it needed a name, and torch327 came up with this one. Kudos, brother.