Please fix weapon leveling

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Originally Posted by Heelcatcher

I feel that they went out of their way to dumb the game down and make it "accessible to anyone," which is a design choice that attempts to satisfy everyone, which instead leaves us mildly disappointed.

Look back to the alpha testing phase of Defiance. The stats of an item were directly related to the EGO rating of that item.

When the system was altered to it's current state, I felt the changes were not fully thought out. Now the progression is minimal and, honestly, a bit underwhelming.

"Perks" in the game don't give you anything new or fun to play with, they just enhance your already-existing abilities. This was a problem to begin with, but it was acceptable because, again, higher EGO meant better items to play with. More "punch" to your boomstick. But nope. Instead, we have a max EGO rating of 5000 and nothing is new from square one to square 5000.

Now I can hardly tell what blue/purple/orange means. I thought it was an indicator for the number of mod slots-but since you can completely mod any weapon of your choosing to the fullest capacity now, that clearly isn't the case.

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I recall someone telling me about the weapon progression in alpha and I was actually content with it, and after playing the beta I was extremely disappointed, then when sledge said "beta weapons and stats do not reflect real game values" i figured they were going to go back to what was available in the alpha.... or at least some sort of variation from the beta, too bad we didn't get what he said. We're still missing quite a few synergy types for mods, yet they can spawn on weapons, I guess that's what he meant by different, haha. Couple that with pretty much forcing people to trash guns just to gain skill levels. The whole system needs work.

At first I would have agreed but after awhile I noticed all my maxed favs where really useless. Now my ar skill is maxed so I can use anything I want ar wise . Though I only use the ar now in timed events or when I need to output my dmg. I'm leveling infectors now.

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Originally Posted by Dr EveHill

At first I would have agreed but after awhile I noticed all my maxed favs where really useless. Now my ar skill is maxed so I can use anything I want ar wise . Though I only use the ar now in timed events or when I need to output my dmg. I'm leveling infectors now.

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That's the point is that most of us don't have all our weapon skills maxed out. The rest of us do have lives. LOL

I do agree, capped weapons, suck.

I have a nice orange Saw and a blue shotty, both drops not available or comparable to any vendor Ive seen. I dont want to get rid them of as they are well balanced and fit my playstyle. Both are maxed out and I cant level with them anymore and if I'm not using them, they are wasting inventory slots.

Unless I found something better I would use them almost all the time. So sad.

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Originally Posted by Amnesia

I imagine that their intention was to encourage players to try out a variety of different weapons in the category. If you could keep getting weapons skill with the same weapon, people would find one they like and then never switch.

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I imagine this to be true, but shouldn't be. No game like this should FORCE you to play a certain way in order to keep advancing. MMOs are all about various options for the player. I've done what the second poster said, and have always kept weapons for my future self. And if I can't find a decent SMG then I switch to a different weapon type of whatever I have that's decent until I get something new and decent. Sure I play around with different weapons, but I shouldn't be forced into dong so. One frustration.

To anyone that isn't just in this for the shooter aspect. I urge you to try Rift. It's actually a really well thought out and excellently executed game. They have a trial with no specific time limit to let you get to 20, with as many toons as you want. And then you can buy it on Steam with first month included for 10$. Definitely worth it. Loving that game. Defiance, I may come back to you in a couple months. But at least the show is decent.

I personally think its because weapons have such a nominal progression across EGO 'levels' that the reason they did this was just so people would look for new gear now and then. Honestly, if you are lucky its possible to get a blue weapon in your first hour of play that you could use your entire career if there was no weapon maxing. Of course if you get for example a orange you love, do what I have done and hold onto it till you max your skill. Once its maxed it doesn't matter anymore and for example my beloved orange VBI Wolverine will be the only pistol I ever need to carry.

Everyone got all orange weapons with Assassin synergy and 4 Assassin mods (replace "Assassin" by the synergy you want) ? No ? Then no point in holding your old crap. System is fine.

The system is terrible, that's really all there is to it. Maybe I wouldn't mind so much if there was storage. (Why is Trion opting to lose out on a huge amount of money selling premium storage slots?) But as it is, an arbitrary xp cap on weapons, makes it so each weapon I use is good for about one play session. Triple the xp caps, add storage, or remove the cap system altogether. In Defiance terms, experience caps are ****taco.

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Originally Posted by Ramus

(Why is Trion opting to lose out on a huge amount of money selling premium storage slots?)

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You can buy 5/10/15 inventory slots from store, I bought the 15 slot expansion but in the end it's only a matter of selling/breaking items from inventory after a session of play. Having a storage it's only having some more slots, but they will eventually end, be it inventory slots or bank slots.

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Originally Posted by Ramus

****taco.

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It's Shtako

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Originally Posted by r3dl4nce

You can buy 5/10/15 inventory slots from store, I bought the 15 slot expansion but in the end it's only a matter of selling/breaking items from inventory after a session of play. Having a storage it's only having some more slots, but they will eventually end, be it inventory slots or bank slots.

It's Shtako

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It's not about inventory space, it's more about separating items you want to save from view.

And i'm absolutely sure its ****taco.

its simply because they really do want you to use a variety of weapons. i have an LMG i love and its maxed out, just like in real life all guns are different and made different, they all have a different "feel" you can use the same hangun all you life and be expert but when given a different handgun it becomes a stragner and it doesnt act like the one youve used for so long, you need to get use to it, to get MORE EPXERIENCE with it because every gun is different.

keep your main gun, but also keep others too, some guns behave differently and some shoot strangely. i like the fact that you need to switch guns, it keeps you on your toes. if you want to truly master a weapon, you cant stick with a single gun, you need different types of the same thing to truly master it. it lets you see how good you skill is when you need to switch weapons, it becomes about player tactic when you switch to weaker guns, about moving and using cover, not having some 404 damage per shot or higher. skill isnt in the damage, its in the player.

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Originally Posted by fighterofsun

its simply because they really do want you to use a variety of weapons.

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Please learn to form your thoughts to make what you're trying to say credible. I can see someone forgot to run spell check. ;)

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Originally Posted by fighterofsun

i have an LMG i love and its maxed out, just like in real life all guns are different and made different, they all have a different "feel" you can use the same hangun all you life and be expert but when given a different handgun it becomes a stragner and it doesnt act like the one youve used for so long, you need to get use to it, to get MORE EPXERIENCE with it because every gun is different.

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Good for you! I don't care what weapons you use or you play style. Thank you Mr. Obvious for stating what we know. Stay on topic! This isn't real life, it's a game! It's not meant to be so your argument is invalid.

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Originally Posted by fighterofsun

keep your main gun, but also keep others too, some guns behave differently and some shoot strangely. i like the fact that you need to switch guns, it keeps you on your toes. if you want to truly master a weapon, you cant stick with a single gun, you need different types of the same thing to truly master it. it lets you see how good you skill is when you need to switch weapons, it becomes about player tactic when you switch to weaker guns, about moving and using cover, not having some 404 damage per shot or higher. skill isnt in the damage, its in the player.

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It totally makes sense to use a weaker weapon to take down a boss or in PVP. It's in the player skill only. The bonuses you get from better weapons and leveling them are total shtako! *sarcasm*

im guessing you're one of those people who are never satisfied with their weapons and are always looking for something stronger, and ya it is in the player skill only, thats why games need skill, but based on how you argue i can tell you have none.

Agreed. The mechanic is just another makeshift grind tacked on to the progression system. Not really needed and only serves to annoy players. There is lots of room for improvement.

I'll chip in my vote against the current way weapon xp works. I've found one orange ever, got to use it for a couple hours, now it just wastes inventory space because I can't use it anymore if I want xp. Stupid.

At least add a damn bank so I don't have to carry around my best weapons THAT I CAN'T USE. Jesus, what a dumb idea this system is.

I enjoy what they did with the weapon leveling system. It would have been boring to find my perfect weapon early on and never switch. With this system in place I get to check out the shops and keep weapons lined up for when I max out the old one. Meanwhile looking for those perfect mods to put into the weapon I have set aside for when I max out that skill ranking.

They should have added an experience bonus to new weapons, and once it maxes out on xp, remove the bonus. But either way, using a weapon should give xp imho.

I don't this will change.

The cost of removing four mods s what really gets me.

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Originally Posted by Offlinekibblet

Nope.

Think forward a little and save weapons you might want to use as you level. I've not used anything less then a blue for my primary weapon since around 200 rating.

I've got 3 SMGs waiting on me, 2 ARs, 3 BMGs and 2 bolt action rifles, all blue or higher.

TL;DR: No. Deal with it.

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Nope. The system is counter intuitive and most people recognize that.

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Originally Posted by fighterofsun

im guessing you're one of those people who are never satisfied with their weapons and are always looking for something stronger, and ya it is in the player skill only, thats why games need skill, but based on how you argue i can tell you have none.

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Something a n00b would say! Playing an MMO is about progressing your character! Becoming more powerful, getting better gear, skills, etc. Having no argument is not the only thing you are missing. LOL See you in PVP son!

Absolutely agreed. Right now the system sends a ton of mixed messages about what the devs want you to do, which leaves the whole thing feeling a bit confused.

1. When your weapon "ranks up", it gets extra stats.
Message: "This weapon is even better now! You should use it until you find something even better!"

2. When your weapon "ranks up", your associated weapon skill stops all progress.
Message: "This weapon is worthless now! If you want to progress, treat all weapons as disposable."

3. Weapons can be upgraded extensively via the Salvage Matrix. You can spend a lot of resources on adding slots and fitting those slots with useful modifications.
Message: "Look at all this cool stuff you can do to your weapon! This means you should hold onto it, because you've spent so much effort into making it better!"

4. To anyone trying to improve/progress their character, weapons are gone through like tissues.
Message: "Weapons are disposable! Don't get attached to them, and try lots of different types!"

5. Weapons skills are segregated by subtype, sometimes exhaustively so. (Shotguns, Sniper Rifles, I'm looking at you.)
Message: "Stick to two very specific types of weapons! Don't branch out, or you'll water down your progress!"

6. Weapons are ranked by a quality/rarity level. Getting a very nice weapon is like getting a ticking timebomb.
Message: "This weapon is awesome! But...don't get attached to it! The moment it maxes out you'll want to ditch it for the most passable weapon of the same type you can find."

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Originally Posted by YakCast

Every other MMO out there doesn't punish you for wanting to hang on and use better points.

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Because in other MMO you use a lvl 2 weapon when you are level 50?

Oh and don't forget that once you will be level 20 you can use wathever you want, you will not gain any level more...

Variety of weapon my arse. I'm keeping 10 over FRC Heavy Assault Carbine and VBI TACC Assault Rifle just to level my AR skills. Unless you consider different color of FRC rifle is a form of variety, the system doesn't promote using different weapon. It's merely enforce keeping multiple weapon of same name because weapon color doesn't matter for leveling purpose. Likewise when I going to level my LMG skills, it's either FRC SAW or Frontier SAW. Cluster shot to level shotgun, Wolfhound to level pistol.

Where's this variety you fan boys speak off? Because I ain't seeing it.

On the other hand, If Defiance use a system where weapon actually did more damage as you progress, I might be more inclined to use a different weapon.

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Originally Posted by Blondin

Because in other MMO you use a lvl 2 weapon when you are level 50?

Oh and don't forget that once you will be level 20 you can use wathever you want, you will not gain any level more...

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If the level 50 weapon had same base damage as the level 2 one like in Defiance, there's no reason to switch. Thanks god other MMO actually had item progression.

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Originally Posted by Blondin

Because in other MMO you use a lvl 2 weapon when you are level 50?

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And if weapons had levels in this game, that'd be relevant.

Near as I have been able to tell, they have quality levels, and that's it. The base damage on a weapon you get at the start and a weapon you get at the end is exactly the same. Furthermore, a weapon you acquire at a high level will decay into uselessness just as fast as at a low level, and that's the problem.

I love this game, but applying blunt apologism to the game hurts it just as much as, maybe even more than, hate posts. No game is perfect, every game can grow, and legitimate concerns getting argued down by people who confuse liking something with never questioning it's every movement hurts the game's ability to grow and improve.

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Originally Posted by Neogeo

Thanks god other MMO actually had item progression.

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Thanks god Defiance is not a clone like any other game.

Man, every game that comes out the forums blow up with how they want it to be like every other game. No wonder gaming has turned into an endless march of sequels and remakes, no one is actually willing to learn a new game.

My set up: Solo questing - Leveling weapons.
Ark Fall - Full leveled weapons
Co-op - Leveling weapons
PVP - Fully leveled weapons

Two classes for training and increasing skills two classes for my best "keeper" weapons to show their stuff.

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Originally Posted by BaiorOfRed

Man, every game that comes out the forums blow up with how they want it to be like every other game. No wonder gaming has turned into an endless march of sequels and remakes, no one is actually willing to learn a new game.

My set up: Solo questing - Leveling weapons.
Ark Fall - Full leveled weapons
Co-op - Leveling weapons
PVP - Fully leveled weapons

Two classes for training and increasing skills two classes for my best "keeper" weapons to show their stuff.

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Yes. Raising concerns about a self-contradictory, confused progression system is the same thing as saying "we want this to be like every other game". And fixing the weird weapon progression system would be like every other game.

You caught us.

Seriously, I like this game. I want it to do well. That's why if I see a legitimate concern, I'll call it out, because every game, EVERY game has room for improvement, and games like this need to improve to survive.

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Originally Posted by Matryoshka

Yes. Raising concerns about a self-contradictory, confused progression system is the same thing as saying "we want this to be like every other game". And fixing the weird weapon progression system would be like every other game.

You caught us.

Seriously, I like this game. I want it to do well. That's why if I see a legitimate concern, I'll call it out, because every game, EVERY game has room for improvement, and games like this need to improve to survive.

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Nice.

Anyway, we can at least agree every game has room for improvement but I find a lot of other areas more pressing. The system is confusing and not immediately intuitive, but it can easily be worked with and even enjoyed. It has a steep learning curve, but that isn't always a bad thing.

Having said that, if the only thing they change about weapon progression is to allow you to keep leveling skill after maxing a weapon, I am down.

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Originally Posted by BaiorOfRed

Nice.

Anyway, we can at least agree every game has room for improvement but I find a lot of other areas more pressing. The system is confusing and not immediately intuitive, but it can easily be worked with and even enjoyed. It has a steep learning curve, but that isn't always a bad thing.

Having said that, if the only thing they change about weapon progression is to allow you to keep leveling skill after maxing a weapon, I am down.

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That's pretty much all I'd want.

The problem I have with the current system isn't the learning curve or it's intuitiveness, but rather the way it contradicts itself and the confused messages it communicates to the player. Weapons improve their stats when ranked up, incentivizing continuing to use them, and yet when they rank up, they halt all progression of the associated skill, disincentivizing the exact same thing. Weapons have a very cool upgrade system via adding slots and finding/selecting mods for those slots again, encouraging their continued use, and yet the system discourages treating most weapons as anything but disposable. There's a lot of variety in weapon types, but the balkanization of the weapon skills strongly discourages wandering outside of 2 weapon types. Cool legendary weapons, which normally should be the source of a rewarding feeling, instead feel like ticking time bombs.

It's not really about difficulty to me, it's about coherent design.

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Originally Posted by Matryoshka

That's pretty much all I'd want.

The problem I have with the current system isn't the learning curve or it's intuitiveness, but rather the way it contradicts itself and the confused messages it communicates to the player. Weapons improve their stats when ranked up, incentivizing continuing to use them, and yet when they rank up, they halt all progression of the associated skill, disincentivizing the exact same thing. Weapons have a very cool upgrade system via adding slots and finding/selecting mods for those slots again, encouraging their continued use, and yet the system discourages treating most weapons as anything but disposable. There's a lot of variety in weapon types, but the balkanization of the weapon skills strongly discourages wandering outside of 2 weapon types. Cool legendary weapons, which normally should be the source of a rewarding feeling, instead feel like ticking time bombs.

It's not really about difficulty to me, it's about coherent design.

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Pretty much nailed it. Plus part of the mod system isn't even in game and you have to depend on a RNG grind for real money, keys or reps to get specific mods while others aren't even available or so insanely rare that you have no hope of ever finishing a synergy. It boggles my mind that people think a contradictory and unfinished system with a RNG grind is innovative.

Resetting the weapon's xp with ark salvage is a good idea. I have seen flat out resetting recommended before and thought it was kinda silly tho i liked the idea. Your way is good, adds some decision making to it

I picked up a green smg, its has a higher damage boost and drains health, I cant throw that away.

Lvl 19 at 2000 ego this weapon will take alot of xp to fill and do just as much damage as anything else, once I get to 20 I will prob switch to AR and not even use my lovely orange smg.

A bit crazy maybe but its my choice, I could use my orange smg now if I want but I choose to xp up.

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Originally Posted by Jackobite

I picked up a green smg, its has a higher damage boost and drains health, I cant throw that away.

Lvl 19 at 2000 ego this weapon will take alot of xp to fill and do just as much damage as anything else, once I get to 20 I will prob switch to AR and not even use my lovely orange smg.

A bit crazy maybe but its my choice, I could use my orange smg now if I want but I choose to xp up.

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I'm in that same boat! I only pull out my XP maxed SMG when I need to!

wow you're so cool.

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Originally Posted by fighterofsun

wow you're so cool.

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Why yes I am sir!

I like the idea that weapon stops giving xp after it reaches max, makes me swap weapons all the time and try new stuff.

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Originally Posted by Hithlum

I like the idea that weapon stops giving xp after it reaches max, makes me swap weapons all the time and try new stuff.

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There are those of us who don't need they hand held like a child and have the magical ability to think for our selves.

........keep the weapon and use it later is that so hard? 0.0

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Originally Posted by YakCast

Let's say you finally find a weapon that meets your play style, get it modded, and then to only find out once the XP is maxed you can no longer earn any XP toward that weapon skill. I find this very frustrating as now I have to use a green version of the weapon with out all the cool bonuses and do less damage. Personally, I find this a flaw with the leveling design and it makes no sense that every time you max a weapon in XP you need to get another to continue leveling. Now you have to design do I want the better weapon or do I want to level my skill. Trion can you please let us keep using and leveling with the weapon of our choice or make it so we can buy with scrap buffs to reset the XP back to zero so we can keep using the same weapon.

Update:

I rant out this in the latest podcast where I talk all about Defiance! You can check it out here in this thread.

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I just want them to make it easier to manage inventory, retrieve mods, etc.

Sure I might be in your boat if it was an Orange or very rare/special weapon that I really want to keep using, but I don't mind that the game encourages me to try different weapon types. One of the only things keeping things fresh still.

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Originally Posted by Hithlum

I like the idea that weapon stops giving xp after it reaches max, makes me swap weapons all the time and try new stuff.

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I agree with this. But I want to be able to retrieve my mods more easily. That interface is too cumbersome to see what is currently equipped and whether it is worth removing or you should just sell and move on.