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This is probably why 10% to 20% increases in gear aren't good enough for people like you. You either can't see or don't understand small details. You need something like 9999 dmg or 99 clip increases to see "progression."Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeroexit
So, I'm guessing likewise you don't really understand details in arguments unless a person says it EXACTLY.
Sorry if this was a repost, I did search before making this topic and didn't see anything like what I'm talking about. You say this game has weapon progression, which is kinda true, but once you max out the xp on a weapon you enjoy, you're forced to change weapons to keep your weapon progression going.Quote:
Originally Posted by KashraFall
I did a lot of reading and what not before I bought this game, and even rented it before buying. I enjoy the game, I hope that doesn't get lost, but what I'm saying is that eventually, that enjoyment will wear off eventually due to that feeling of no real progression. While I'm not super high yet, I do have a friend who is around 1500 EGO. When we do Arkfalls together he does pretty much the same damage as I do. He's 1000+ EGO levels ahead of me and does the same damage with his gun as I do? Sure, he might reload a hair faster than I do making his DPS very slightly higher, but not enough to really make a huge difference. Then you look at his shield, which is pretty much the same as mine and his nade mod, same.
So is 1000+ levels of ego enough to compare progression or do I need to wait longer to judge that?
I like progression in game i just don't like the idea to throw my favorite weapon because i need to replace it to level up the skills. And that also when you have no bank to stash items and inventory comes slow and is just never enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Nelson
One thing to remember is that this is an MMO shooter based on a relatively flat difficulty curve, and not a traditional tab-target-based gear-dependent RPG like those that people tend to be more familiar with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost033
This brings with it different ways of looking at things, and what works in One Of Those MMOs won't work in this, because as a so-called "pixel-perfect shooter" then main thrust of the game isn't based on the gear you're using, its based on your skill on the keyboard or the controller. How accurately you aim your crosshairs, how effectively you dodge incoming attacks, how well you make use of terrain, tactics and coordination of the battlefield. None of which is dependent upon how fancy or powerful the gear you have is.
Essentially, the reason it feels to you like there is little progression in gear is because the game is ultimately not a gear-based game. The bonuses you get as you progress are small and incremental because that's not what the game is about. And even so, you can eventually obtain a huge number of these incremental abilities, and together they can add up to a decent chunk.
But even then, if Trion has put their shooter together correctly, it won't mean the difference between life and death, or Player A versus Player B. In a traditional MMO like Wow or similar, it's all about the gear and your level. But in a traditional shooter, it's all about the personal skill instead. This approach works for some people, but not for others, depending on their playstyle and the sort of games they like.
Yes, I agree, a wider diversity in weapon skins and types would be nice. What i don't want is the Borderlands style of itemization, where it's a billion types of randomized weapons...and maybe one of them is good. All that does is it causes everyone to stop for 5 minutes each time something drops to check to see if what they have is better or worse. It was like pulling teeth trying to play Borderlands with other people because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Nelson
Bugs push people away at first place.
Very well put crunchy, but they do have RPG elements instilled in this game, and that by itself opens the market to people who want to see more of that RPG flavor. And NO ONE is wrong for having wanted that. Call us uninformed if you will but Trion didn't make a thirdperson COD, they did indeed want the MMORPG players to open their wallets and buy this game.
Agreed on all points. I'm hoping they add a bank and auction house later, as well as make it so that we can still progress in weapon skill with a max level weapon, even if it is at a decreased rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Technodude
I still don't understand why you can't just keep the weapons that you like... Level up with different weapons and then once you're maxed out on skill rank then switch back to your favorite weapons. Why is this so difficult?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost033
Because of inventory. The idea behind Defiance progression is that you can max everything out on one character. that is the carrot here to keep players playing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Finch
Now if i start carrying 2 to three versions of all weapons i will never get anything done due to limited inventory and lack of bank to stash items.
Thank you for bolding points but you still don't show where I say there is NO progression. There are some slight differences, but what I was saying is there is no real sense of progressing as you level. I don't think you've helped your cause here, because what you claim I said, I never did say....Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Finch
Are you serious? Your confusing me with another poster. I don't want to roflstomp anyone, As I said before Im ALL for Balanced PVP, but PVE don't have to be that way, WHY? why does it? Its no surprise that there isn't anything to do at EGO 5000 that you cant do at EGO 500, do you understand that? I understand details in arguments, its you who doesn't really have one, or just CANT ARGUE. Do you know what quotations are? what they really ARE? do you know the definition of Lacking? Go play call of duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Finch
Excellent post, SteveMND.
Certain perks work in unison with weapon choice. This all works towards you ending up doing more damage than anyone who isn't properly trained in those perks and the weapon skills increase the Crit multi as well as other fun little things. I personally think the weapon leveled system is bugged right now as you see very meager increases but they are there, none the less. However if you do look into the perks, you will see there are ways to do more than others. You just have to be willing to hop off the "LMG or AR" band wagon and do a bit more delving. I am sorry you aren't feeling as if you are enjoying the game and yes the longevity is questioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost033
The simple fact however is this. Trion designed this game with the sole thought of people being able to play together, regardless of their time spent in the game. They have kept that promise and now you people are dislike the way they came about it? Give the game a bit of time to stabilize. IT has been what? Two weeks? Not even?
Quite honestly, I don't understand the heat in the discussion. Progression exists, it's just that the game introduces an indirect "breaking point" around 1000 EGO or so, where any "progression" has very little impact on the efficiency of the character in either terms of DPS or survivability. The important part here, is that (at the moment) no content exists where these small increments in power are required or even matter, in terms of making things easier or significantly...faster. That's precicely why a lot of players don't 'feel' whatever is you want to call progression.
I don't get all the hostility. It's a fun game and I feel like there's enough to keep busy. Maybe the hardcore 1500 EGO grinders are outplaying the content, but I feel like there is consistently things to work on. One point I'd like to make is that most mmo compartmentalize their game into level based areas. It may seem big, but you can only access a tenth of the game at a time based on your level. Defiance has managed to code a game where everybody can game without these level based barriers...seems impressive to me. I find the shooting fun and accurate and I'm shocked at how smooth the gaming is now. Kudos to the trion team for fast fixes and constant communication to the players.
- I am about to hit 500 EGO.
- I am working on some different builds and look forward to my 5th perk slot
- I am experimenting with weapon slots.
- So happy that guns aren't grossly imbalanced or statistically different. Favourite gun is one I got at EGO 70
- doing some multiplayer. Seems fun. Look forward to more maps. Shotguns perhaps a bit OP in multiplayer.
- not done all the missions yet. Very curious to see what the weekly releases are like and how much content.
- chipping away at contracts.
- have some friends playing (teaming up is a blast)
- certain I've missed stuff
I dunno... I have lots to do at the moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost033
*Sigh*
Saying that "I'm only at EGO 420 or so but the guns I'm finding are EXACTLY the same as the ones I found at 10, 20, 80, 100, etc."
Saying that guns are "EXACTLY the same" (your CAPS) isn't saying there are some slight differences. Am I missing something?
KashraFall, I'm not going anywhere, I DO enjoy the game, but how many people do you think are going to stick around and see what happens? Video games have a very small window to grab people and keep them, if they don't, they're gone forever. Look how many MMO's have fallen to this? Conan is a perfect example. They came out pretty big, stumbled and made errors, lost a massive amount of users. Today the game is REALLY good, but nobody cares because it already had it's shot and people have moved on. Diablo 3 is another example of this. Once you lose your target audience, its gone, you don't get it back. There are just too many games today for people to sit around and wait for a game to figure out how to be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by KashraFall
They may have wanted the RPG players to open their wallets, but that wasnt their main focus. Thats pretty clear by not only some of the elements that are or are not in the game, but also that they have said repeatedly that the game is a shooter above all else, other features come 2nd. They already tried the whole thing that every other company has been doing where they make a game similar to WoW, EQ, etc and try to succeed in that market. Problem is, it's already been done over and over and over. You're not going to out-WoW WoW. Many have tried, and all have failed. Trion attempted with Rift, and though it was more successful than many other games that released since WoW, it didn't work out as well as they would have liked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeroexit
So would it be smart to repeat the same mistake? Make another gear / level based game like the 200 that already exist? Focus on all the same features and mechanics that those 200 other games also offer? Create a direct competitor to one of their already running games which just released an expansion in the past year? Of course that's not a smart idea. They already have Rift. Sure they could have taken the easy route and just reskinned Rift, added the Defiance name, and changed the storyline / characters, but that would have been a stupid move.
Defiance was meant to appeal mainly to a different group of players. Players who enjoy shooters for what they offer, including player skill based gameplay rather than character skill / progression based, but who also want to play in a persistent world. Theres very little competition out there for such a game in comparison to another WoW/EQ/SWTOR/WAR/Rift style game.
I don't really get everyone's desire to keep playing & paying for the same game over and over again every year or 2 wrapped in a new skin with a new name but nearly identical features, mechanics, and gameplay. Theres plenty of them out there already. Everyone complains theyre bored of this game and that game, or will whine every time a WoW-clone comes out that "OMG this just a ****ty WoW-clone. Why cant any devs do anything besides copy WoW" yet every time a new game comes out they complain that the new game doesnt have all the same stuff the game they were bored with had. Let a different game be different for once rather than trying to force into being the same old regurgitated crap we have been playing for a decade.
PS: You can replace WoW in several places in my post with whatever game you prefer. About 90% of them will fit the description. Just using WoW since it is the biggest / most well known example.
Seems to me pve is only balanced for pvp purposes. I posted a few days ago, that i was able to do co-op instance solo! I had 3 of my friends join, and all they did was stand back and do nothing, just to see if i could. I had no perks active and a very low ego weapon, with no mods. Now heres my question..if im able to do that (and by the way, anyone can test this out, its easy as **** to do) were is my motivation now? Its human nature to feel challenged, this is to much balance and the perseption of progression is a cheap trick especially when im able to do things with no mobd and no perks. This is the kind of game you want????Quote:
Originally Posted by KashraFall
Also well put. I will wait for more patches and content, because there is no monthly sub. Do I think they game is going to change its dynamics much? No. But I will wait cause ive already purchased and its free. I am not complaining in any sense I was merely defending the OPs post because 1 I agree, and 2 I don't like "go play wow" attitudes. Its okay that I feel as though the game curved towards boring at 1000 EGO, the PVP is lacking and broken, and overall variety is illusions of grandeur, Those are my opinions. The one constant we should all agree on as gamers, even though some will be fanboys regardless, is that there should have been a more polished experience at launch. We are getting into this culture of being accepting of unfinished games and too many devs want to just patch and update.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristanian
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeroexit
This is the intent, to get people to except unfinished games.
Look at how much money Trion made on this game so far? All current players are at TRions mercy to deliver patches. So many mistakes with the launch and now they have to please each and every player and hope the patch they install will atlleast please 80% of the players. I weep for this gaming generation.
How many MMOs do you play? How many MMOs do you know that launch without any bugs or problems? I weep for the ignorant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daholic
Loadout 1; Maxed out Frontier SAW and naff BMG, for arkfalls. Loadout 2; 'not' maxed out SAW and random weapon for levelling stats. Loadout 3 + 4... not used! I also don't understand why people have this 'need' to throw away/sell a weapon they like. Just make a PvP loadout, PvE loadout and a random for levelling stuff. Simple stuff, I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Finch
Many people have said in this thread. IT'S NOT AN RPG! I still LOVE the fact I can go back to the very first spawn point and have a decent gun fight with mutants, I haven't out levelled that area. It is still 'useful' to me. It's not now a part of the game that is pointless in me re-visiting. AND if I'm not looking where I'm going, can still die quite easily!
This game does what it said it would do (apart from some of the bugs that need fixing!). MMO with an RPG 'element'. Expecting things the game never offered is why you don't enjoy it.
So you are saying it is ok? people shouldn't expect better? since when expecting better quality in something you pay for is being ignorant?Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Finch
Oh, the experience is as polished as could be, considering their timetable. You should have seen this back in Jan-Feb (alpha), there were severe issues trust me (there are still quite a few leftovers in terms of bugs I'm afraid). As for not settling for mediocrity (for a lack of a better term), I completely agree, however I'd be a liar if I stated that I didn't see this coming, considering my alpha status. I simply made peace with the fact that I was going to play, for the most part, to actually see for myself what they have planned in terms of show crossover. I recognize that not many people are going to settle for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeroexit
And let's not delude ourselves here. The rest of the 'features' in Defiance have already been done in a much better capacity, in terms of story/mechanics depth, challenge and content consumption/pacing, in other MMO's.
OP:
400 something EGO rating? Max level is 4000 btw. How was WoW at a tenth of max level?
Play and review your own post once your early to mid thousand. This is when your gun collection will become more significant and you gained more weapon skill experience and the most obvious (or at least it should be) the talent system starts to really kick in - you have a lot more slots for traits and enough points to freely choose any trait on the grid by dumping single points to get there.
And there are some pretty good synergies out there that aren't possible without the needed amount of skill points.
I play on PC, so I cannot judge the consoles version, but things are pretty smooth for 2 weeks and just before patch zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by Technodude
Console players might have a hard time as the medium and some players are not used to persistant world games.
What!? I don't even... what!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost033
If your having fun with a game that's really all that is needed to keep someone playing it.
Ohh ahh again im asked how many mmo's ive played, hive minded fanboys ehh..what ive played doesnt excuse this abortion of a game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Finch
Question..are you ok with any product you buy being flawed because some other product released over the years were flawed also? You have been lied to constantly by Trion..remember Sledge said "Weapon stats does not reflect the final launch"..seems the same to me with the content ive played in beta and release up to that point.
People quit thisgame for the same reason the OP mentioned, and you have the audacity to argue that point?? Your ignorance is astounding, mmo be damned..noone should except the way the game was launched.
Lol how many mmo's ive played? i can tell you anything, but one thing is for sure, atleast i have enouigh common sence to not except 2005 problem on a 2013 game.
I admit excelent post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warkaiser
Still i have very diffrent opinion.
Yes Defiance cant compete with any other MMORPG, cos RPG elements are close to not existant
BUT
It seriously cant compete with MMO FPS either. Not too mention online shooters. people plays Counter Strike CoD and Batlefields 10 yearr ago, and i guess they will still be playing 10 years ahead from now
Even worse - there are TONS of MMO ahead (Warframe, Warface, Firefall, Repopuation, even Destiny etc) -and someone here seriously even think that Defiance can compete with any of that?
Btw why i bought Defiance.
Fist and most important: i get Rift+expansion for free :cool:
Second: Defiance is VERY good casual type game - i was looking for something to catch some breath after some hardcore MMO playing (mostly in Fallen Earth) - also most of MMO i waiting is still in beta (Repopulation, Firefall, Age of Wulin, ArcheAge)
So i run out a content? So what i return where something new appear
im borred to hell with PvP/Co-Op/Arkfall? - i return when i forgot about that a bit,
Defiance is good for that type of playing - but terrible for hardcore type of playing
btw for folks that prayse Skills before Progress: Progress is EVERYTHING (not loot, not skill, not fancy titles, not beautifull women :D)
Op is totally right - lack of progress will push people away. that gonna happend and YOU KNOW IT
please watch this short animation - most should like it, i promise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkAYze6ae18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeroexit
This isn't call of duty, which he must be expecting the pvp to be. If i don't grab those games the week or event he day they're out, i never grab them and never play them since it's not problematic learning the maps and weapons the problem is ever leveling out your weapons because the guys who have already leveled their profiles are roflstomping you and some spawn camping you to the point you can't learnt he maps either. Sounds like that's the kind of game that guy wanted this game to be, becaus eit may be the only way that he can win. And he's all PO'd because he can't just play more and have an automatic advantage over people, too bad lol. If people within reasonable ego level difference can't have a chance to get one another if they go about the right way then how many people did he honestly expect to play pvp once the no-lifers maxed out everything and leveled to hell doing it? he'd have no one to play with after a while, that's why it's more balanced. the guy who compared 100 incriments of ego to alevel in othe rgames also hit the nail on the head, that was a great way to get someone to have a better understanding of how ego commpares to traditional level systems, not to mention there's plenty of other ways to improve your character besides just the ego, such as weapon skill levels. And I keep good purples for ark events and pvp if I max them out, and level up my ksilsl through missions and common events with other weapons of at least blue quality that I happen across through lockboxes, shops, or rewards. The guy sounded as if he was insenuating he was super-pro... yet sounded like a noob not thinking about simply saving good weapons when they're maxed out, especially isnce they get minor perks and can hold 4 mods... synergy mods even. I think he just wanted a reason to complain, or as I said earlier expected Call of Doody: The MMORPG, perhaps he was just torlling though, to get us writing replies like this lol. Imo , finally starting on thursday, I didn't eff everyone up, but I at least broke even on K/D, there were some people much harder to kill who must have had the right perks and better shields, and some who KO'd me like mike tyson, the game seems balanced enough to me. not to mention there's more than 100 ways to skin those cats in pvp, and you can't expect to rambo a bunch of 'scrubs' either, as they may turn out to not be such a bunch of scrubs after all and may mow you down before you even get any of them. also, the perk system allows enough ways to counter people, and so do the ego abilities. this isn't call of duty lol. And shotgun/cloak well the cloak can be visible if you look hard enough and predictable when aperson keeps doing it, and you can drop a nade and roll and sprint/jump out of the way and they don't always kill you unless they came up behind ya in which case cloak was a bit of a waste and not influential in that anyways, you can mow someone down with an assault rifle form behind before they can turn around even. I haven't seen a huge problem with shotties in pvp yet, the few people doing very well with them are probably more experienced and have saved some great purple/orange ones for pvpQuote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Finch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warkaiser
Totally well said.
Even though I am not good with shooter types of games, but I support Trion or any game developers who are willing to try something new and different.
Granted that the game maybe a bit slight on contents and features at the moment, but surely it will evolve and get better. Lets all chill and relax as well as change our perception of the game vs the traditional MMOs.
I guess you must have paid attention during the months leading up to release. Many clearly didn't. They bought a game without knowing what it was and are upset because it's not what they wanted. There was so much indication in advance about what this game would be that I can't really have too much sympathy for those people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostlight
I think he is still trying to find his calculator to do the math on 1.10 x 30.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Finch
i didnt read your whole post simply because the format is horrible and my eyes found it uncomfortable adjusting to each line.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Govanator
But you are wrong about COD, you could start now, and if you are good at shooters, you still wont have a problem.
How do you think people prestige weapons? They have to reset them to basic and use them all over again, there is no real benefit to getting the game when it first comes out.
I, like a lot of people would have prefered some sort of progression system past modding, but would have settled for a more distinct role system, as it stands, its not even hard to reset ego points, nor is it hard to get all the worth while ones without resetting, so everyone is running around exactly the same.
come a years time and apart from astehtics, everyone will be exaclty the same, wether they started on launch day or started 1 week ago from sed year.
These complaints about limited progression may come from jaded views about these types of games, but in terms of long term viability there is some logic to our concerns.
Something needs to be done, maybe not necessarily the progression some of us would like to see implemented, but something to set people apart and sustain interest.
There are logical people thinking their oppinions through on both sides, but many people are just posting for the sake of posting without any thought or premise for their arguments.
TL/DR: OP is talking about a feeling. There are game mechanics (or a lack thereof) that directly contribute to that feeling.
After reading the OP I think he/she is more referring to the enigmatic (and subjective) feeling of progression in that most of the character specific progression outside of loot drops comes from the Ego Powers, their associated Perks, and other passive buffs. The Ego powers/perks improvement in efficiency, power, duration, recharge, etc, DO evolve but it's just not as engaging or gamechanging as say...getting a good purple/orange loot drop.
In other words, passive buff incremental "under the hood" statistical progression isn't sexy by itself and at the very least needs supported by more overt "feelings of progression". This usually comes in the form of:
A. Graphics - Literally more impressive/interesting animations form a visual perspective. That's why games start you out with your "pew pew" move and then graduate to your "Finger of God" smite all the things move.
B. Gameplay - Combat, Survivability, Utility, Movement...whatever. If there's no variation to you your game experience after 30 hours to what your were doing in the first hour then...well...that's not good.
C. Simplicity of mechanics - Honestly there doesn't really seem to be a lot of depth to combat mechanics so it's harder to show progression.
For a point of reference, look at Borderlands and how Gearbox handled character progression in a heavy FPSRPG genre (is that a thing?) and how each of the classes look, sound, and play differently as they progress in power. The Ego powers in Defiance right now however...not so much.
i just don't agree with the whole "switch" your weapon every single time. Whats the whole point of modding a weapon if your not going to use it long? Until you get to the max and I'm only rank 4 bolt action until i realized i wasn't ranking up any more. explain that to me.
This is a great post and I hope people who actually have some input on this game read this type of opinion, because in the end, it will be this type of thing that makes or breaks this game. I never could put my finger on it, but you helped me see one of the issues I've been having and that is the lack of any roles in the game. You pick from 4 different ones at the beginning but in the end they don't even matter, which is kinda lame IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by primalwolf
There is a LOT of potential here for a truly great game and I hope they figure it out before it's too late.
The PVP in this game is a joke. The LVL up system is weird. I do wish this game was a MMO Borderlands, with tones of weapons and truly challenging enemies and not just tones of weak enemies trying to kill me. They should have more boss fights, less bots but stronger bots.
And don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game, but since I finished the main story line, it hasn't been fun at all. The side missions are so easy and repetitive. I have 9 EGO points that I don't even use because I have no slots to use new skills.
And if I was to play a Deathmatch PVP game, I'd just play Black Ops II cause it was made for it. I wish it was open PVP.
Item progression doesn't mean wow you meat head. It gives everyone somthing to look forward to. And any game with weapons that have the stats your speaking of are ******ed. Never heard of themQuote:
Originally Posted by Atticus Finch