Lack of progression will push people away.

The kind of progression OP seems to be talking about, especially if it's tied up with getting better weapons and gear, would just turn Defiance into another gear grinding mmo. Grinding for better gear so you can grind for even better gear so you can grind for even better, better gear is the worst part of most mmo's. I'd rather have my skill as a player determine my success on the battlefield not my gear. Especially in a shooter. Would it be better to find über purple guns my character can hold onto for his entire life? Maybe, but I'm fine with things the way they are.

I like this game alot.

At the same time I feel they messed up by not making loot and level progression a bigger deal. Those things can keep you playing until the earth ends. If you know that there are far better guns and gear out there, that you can achieve higher levels, that's enough motivation to do anything in a game. I am still enjoying the story and PVP but I can already see the time coming soon where my interest will drop due to lack of progression.

I really think they should have kept the PVP stuff on a damage curve but let us grow in single player. We should be able to get OP weapons and the like if we put in the time in to do so. That hunt for the bigger loot, cool unlocks, deeper customization is what will keep people going.

OF course there will be the die hard fans who will happy with the way thing are now but I can't help but feel like there is a major opportunity being missed here by limiting things in this way. As it stands it is not very exciting to hunt for new weapons and gear. The rewards I get from arkfalls and dropped items get sole 70 percent of the time without a second thought. I have a ton of in game cash but little reason to spend it.

The more time I put into the game the more like it feels like I am getting diminishing returns. I am def looking forward to the new content but unless it brings in new weapons and such I don't know if it will be enough to hold people long term. The addiction factor is just not high enough right now and that is most easily remedied with progressive loot and leveling.

This game is Schizophrenic. It's a shooter that has delusions of being an MMO, and it almost pulls it off anyway.

I'm only at EGO 621 now, but with my perks and weapons skill bonuses, plus some better weapons completely modded out, I'm doing about 25% more damage than when I started. That's not too bad.

What is kinda bad is that at EGO 5000, I might be lucky to be doing 35% more damage than when I started. That's the rub.

Perhaps we have been spoiled by the likes of Borderlands, but I do understand that this is a shooter first, with some MMO attributes tacked on. Nevertheless, the MMO elements are lacking, in my opinion. I pick up tons and tons of loot from fallen enemies, but about 99% of it ends up in the recycle matrix. I am just not finding anything better than I have now. This is contrary to what most MMOs are based on. However, it's about par for most all shooters.

Think of Black Ops or Halo...did you get much stronger and have uber-weapons as you progressed along? Nope. Those are shooters, so the gameplay is all about shooting. It's not about leveling up. You might get some better weapons as you do the various missions, but nothing too spectacular. Those shooting games are about skill sets and tactics. No so much about the power of any particular weapon.

The PVP in this game is just sad. Actually, it's kind of silly. I tried it, and then just stopped. I don't miss it at all.

Co-op is better, and can be fun at times, but I'm not a huge fan of that either.

I hate racing games with a passion. I don't like racing in a shooter...but I do like racing around and jumping over stuff. Strange...

So the jury is still out on the success of the concept--shooter/MMO. Most reviews have been 'meh' rather than enthusiastic.

Eurogamer had an interesting review---worth reading, IMO. Basically, they had fun, but couldn't quite shake an empty feeling about the content. Of course, this was written while some resolved issues weren't resolved yet by Trion. So use a grain of salt.

I hope that Trion can get the concept to work right. I like this game and think that it has potential.

However, Destiny is now on the horizon, along with a new generation of consoles...

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Originally Posted by Jeff Kaos

The kind of progression OP seems to be talking about, especially if it's tied up with getting better weapons and gear, would just turn Defiance into another gear grinding mmo. Grinding for better gear so you can grind for even better gear so you can grind for even better, better gear is the worst part of most mmo's. I'd rather have my skill as a player determine my success on the battlefield not my gear. Especially in a shooter. Would it be better to find über purple guns my character can hold onto for his entire life? Maybe, but I'm fine with things the way they are.

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Do you play Defiance? You can already do that. The weapon is just never that uber.

Very vocal members of the player base do not want their skill to be a limiting factor. Look at all the Nim complaining.

There is no real power curve in this game. Once I can aim at a head and dodge incoming fire I'm done getting better. Defiance has 1 attack key, 1 power, and then the grenade. There is no real depth there. Most of my perk slots don't really do anything either.

No treadmill for gear/weapon progression is exactly why I love this game. It was exactly why I loved CoH for several years.

I am so sick and tired of the traditional (read: needs to be retired) gear treadmill of EQ/WoW/Rift/DCUO and many others. That rates up there with tab-target/hotkey combat, which was originally conceived to compensate for the lag that early MMOs suffered from dial-up connections. Both game design systems need to be retired.

It seems that any better you get in terms of ego is a wash because the mobs get harder too. Go back and kill some of the mutants in the opening missions. They aren't appreciably easier than they were the first time through, although your personal skill may be better and make you more effective.

What happened to playing games for fun? People don't play most non-MMO multiplayer games because of a sense of progression of character abilities.

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Originally Posted by Lyokira

What happened to playing games for fun? People don't play most non-MMO multiplayer games because of a sense of progression of character abilities.

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Getting stronger to fight harder and harder challenges is fun for a lot of people.

Why are you talking about non-mmos? Defiance is an MMO and some form of progression is a hallmark of the genre.

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Originally Posted by jnt

Getting stronger to fight harder and harder challenges is fun for a lot of people.

Why are you talking about non-mmos? Defiance is an MMO and some form of progression is a hallmark of the genre.

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Exactly!

You cannot have one of the main features of your game be loot... Only to have such pathetic loot. I don't know of any other game with loot that has only like 20 different weapons lol

I got my first orange weapon finally and it wasn't even better than the green one I had - talk about a downer. It sounds good on paper to say you play the game not for the loot, but for the "fun of it??" I suppose, but I'm not even about to say that's me. If there is no carrot or reward to look forward to in the actions I'm taking, interest goes out the window. And my interest in Defiance has plummeted since release that's for sure, although it's not entirely to do with the loot.

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Originally Posted by jnt

Getting stronger to fight harder and harder challenges is fun for a lot of people.

Why are you talking about non-mmos? Defiance is an MMO and some form of progression is a hallmark of the genre.

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But it doesn't have to be: nothing about being massively multiplayer and online implies progression. And there's like over a hundred other MMOs which follows that formula, there's no reason to retread: might as well be playing all those other MMOs.

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Originally Posted by War5torm

Exactly!

You cannot have one of the main features of your game be loot... Only to have such pathetic loot. I don't know of any other game with loot that has only like 20 different weapons lol

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Name me some MMOs which has more than 20 different kinds of weapons (obviously not factoring bonus/different stats and such, since Defiance clearly has that) (also not factoring weapons that are different in name only, since you can add attachments to guns to make them visually/functionally different as far as usage is concerned)

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Originally Posted by Lyokira

What happened to playing games for fun? People don't play most non-MMO multiplayer games because of a sense of progression of character abilities.

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Well I'm not sure I agree with that. I can't think of many rpg's where I stayed at level 1 for the whole game and the same weapons. And I can't think of many fps games where I also didn't get better weapons as I advanced in the game. Or strategy games where I get better units and other things. Sure there are some games that don't have "progression", but there aren't a ton, and most of those are backed by a really intriguing story or puzzles or something (like adventure games). And you're free to your opinion, but I hardly find the story here to be very compelling - nor do I find the missions, especially the side missions of which is the VAST majority, anything but extremely repetitive and boring.

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Originally Posted by Lyokira

But it doesn't have to be: nothing about being massively multiplayer and online implies progression. And there's like over a hundred other MMOs which follows that formula, there's no reason to retread: might as well be playing all those other MMOs.

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MMOs require communities to maintain their size. Empty MMOs get their servers turned off. Progression that comes with fun mechanics and an engaging story keeps people playing. PVP grabs pvpers, crafting grabs crafters, etc.

Defiance currently has about 20 hours of story.
No real gear progression.
Rudimentary perks

My character is accomplishing about as much when Im logged off on the forums as when Im in game.

That's what they said with GW1.
Just saying.

I, for one, find the lack of power creep attractive.

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Originally Posted by Booshy

Well I'm not sure I agree with that. I can't think of many rpg's where I stayed at level 1 for the whole game and the same weapons. And I can't think of many fps games where I also didn't get better weapons as I advanced in the game. Or strategy games where I get better units and other things. Sure there are some games that don't have "progression", but there aren't a ton, and most of those are backed by a really intriguing story or puzzles or something (like adventure games). And you're free to your opinion, but I hardly find the story here to be very compelling - nor do I find the missions, especially the side missions of which is the VAST majority, anything but extremely repetitive and boring.

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There are a LOT of games without persistent progression. Look beyond your tiny little box, and you see arcade games, card games, board games, sports games, most competitive games, etc... Interestingly, most of the examples you mentioned, happens to be single player games too.

If by progression you mean increases in stats to fight stuff that also increased in stats then all you end up with is useless old zones and segregation in the community. Real progression is about increasing challenges, not just bosses with higher health, that just creates a gear treadmill. When you level up to do 10 times more damage to fight something with 10 times more health you are going nowhere and it is only an illusion of progression.

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Originally Posted by Erei

That's what they said with GW1.
Just saying.

I, for one, find the lack of power creep attractive.

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I'd love if Defiance had the depth of GW1

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Originally Posted by Atticus Finch

Not sure what kind of progression you're looking for. This game has plenty of progression. If you want to pull a trigger and do 9999 dmg to everything in 10 m radius you should pay 15 dollar a month and go play WoW

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Jaded Defance fan is jaded.

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Originally Posted by Frost033

Please don't get me wrong, this isn't a "I'm leaving" post, but I am looking for a bit of a pep talk. The face is, there is little to no difference between an ego 300 and ego 10. While this is nice for being able to play with other people lower and higher levels, its frustrating because I feel like I'm just spinning my tires. I'm only at EGO 420 or so but the guns I'm finding are EXACTLY the same as the ones I found at 10, 20, 80, 100, etc. Other than story, I'm having a hard time getting motivated to play.

And IF by some chance you do find a gun you enjoy, you only get it for a limited time because the game forces you to use different guns once they're maxed out in XP if you want to gain anymore weapon XP. How does that make ANY sense??

Without any sense of progression people aren't going to be playing this game long. Look at other games, especially MMO's, you have to have SOMETHING that makes people come back for more. Unless I'm missing something, Defiance is missing that hook that makes people stay with a game for an extended period of time.

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I kinda agree with you, the difference between levels should matter, im level 902 or something now, normal MMO sense would be that id beat the living crap out of you, not doing to much.. But this is not the case in Defiance, I sorta like it, and kinda hate it too. Annoying, yes. Uncommon, yes. leveling does not feel that fun. I just finnished up all main and side missions last night (so far) can't say im so tempted to play any more either. Leveling does not give me to much, and PVP is full of those who has gotten a OP weapon.

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Originally Posted by tinytina

If by progression you mean increases in stats to fight stuff that also increased in stats then all you end up with is useless old zones and segregation in the community. Real progression is about increasing challenges, not just bosses with higher health, that just creates a gear treadmill. When you level up to do 10 times more damage to fight something with 10 times more health you are going nowhere and it is only an illusion of progression.

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Name some challenges you'd like to add to Defiance that don't include farming, organizing large numbers of players with a broken chat system, or just increasing monster hp. I'm curious.

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Originally Posted by tinytina

If by progression you mean increases in stats to fight stuff that also increased in stats then all you end up with is useless old zones and segregation in the community. Real progression is about increasing challenges, not just bosses with higher health, that just creates a gear treadmill. When you level up to do 10 times more damage to fight something with 10 times more health you are going nowhere and it is only an illusion of progression.

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Give it up. The WoW/EQ/Rift hardcores will never wrap their heads around that. Don't get me wrong, I played WoW for several years and currently have a subscription to Rift; but I've been tired of that treadmill/progression illusion for a long time, and the segregation it brings to a community.

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Originally Posted by Rasczak

Give it up. The WoW/EQ/Rift hardcores will never wrap their heads around that. Don't get me wrong, I played WoW for several years and currently have a subscription to Rift; but I've been tired of that treadmill/progression illusion for a long time, and the segregation it brings to a community.

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Wrap their heads around what? The post you quoted just said the word challenges without elaborating.

If Trion added some more fun, Defiance would be a better game.

Ya know.. we keep seeing this thread topic over and over and over and over and over...

And then people wonder why those of us who actually see Defiance for what it is are SICK AND TIRED, and telling people to go back to WoW/Rift/Whatever?

C'mon guys.. GET REAL. This is NOT a gear-grinding, socially diverse, mmoRPG (and yes, I've played many of them) that any of us are used to. Does the game have some things that NEED to be fixed (ie the UI and Chat systems).. oh hell yes. But.. this game is NOT what any of us are used to in terms of an MMO (since most MMOs follow that pre-baked-cookie-cutter-building-BS).

People need to SEE DEFIANCE for what it is.. and understand what it isn't.

Maybe THEN you'll either get onboard and understand how the game mechanics work.. or you FINALLY open your eyes and say "Ok.. I enjoyed it, but it's not the game for me".

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Originally Posted by PseudoCool

Ya know.. we keep seeing this thread topic over and over and over and over and over...

And then people wonder why those of us who actually see Defiance for what it is are SICK AND TIRED, and telling people to go back to WoW/Rift/Whatever?

C'mon guys.. GET REAL. This is NOT a gear-grinding, socially diverse, mmoRPG (and yes, I've played many of them) that any of us are used to. Does the game have some things that NEED to be fixed (ie the UI and Chat systems).. oh hell yes. But.. this game is NOT what any of us are used to in terms of an MMO (since most MMOs follow that pre-baked-cookie-cutter-building-BS).

People need to SEE DEFIANCE for what it is.. and understand what it isn't.

Maybe THEN you'll either get onboard and understand how the game mechanics work.. or you FINALLY open your eyes and say "Ok.. I enjoyed it, but it's not the game for me".

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See when I look at it I see an unfinished Borderlands MMO, I hope it gets completed via patching.

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Originally Posted by jnt

Name some challenges you'd like to add to Defiance that don't include farming, organizing large numbers of players with a broken chat system, or just increasing monster hp. I'm curious.

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Challenges, as in new and interesting mechanics. Look at the motherlode and dekuso fights. They are pretty simple but have some basic mechanics to make them more interesting than most other stuff in the game. Build on those ideas, adding in varied and different mechanics that get harder to coordinate. Chat will be fixed, viop will be fixed, I play with other people all the time with no issues with communication right now. Anyway, doing more damage to a mob with more health isn't progression, you are going nowhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jnt

Name some challenges you'd like to add to Defiance that don't include farming, organizing large numbers of players with a broken chat system, or just increasing monster hp. I'm curious.

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1) Mixed mob arkfalls
2) Dark Matter arkfalls
3) Arkfall-related PvP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tinytina

If by progression you mean increases in stats to fight stuff that also increased in stats then all you end up with is useless old zones and segregation in the community. Real progression is about increasing challenges, not just bosses with higher health, that just creates a gear treadmill. When you level up to do 10 times more damage to fight something with 10 times more health you are going nowhere and it is only an illusion of progression.

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Older zones don't become useless when an MMO has multiple classes which encourages a player to have multiple characters. Those charactera are going to need to utilize those "useless areas". When an MMO is like defiance, where there is zero incentive to have multiple characters, then yes certain areas become useless. Real progression comes from increasing challenges and you counter the increasing challenge but allowing a player to have noticeably better gear. If two different players both level to 50 and one acquires better gear while the other lingers in gear 20 levels behind, what do you think the result would be? One will deal more damage and live longer than the other. There's no illusion there. It's progression staring you right in the face...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tinytina

If by progression you mean increases in stats to fight stuff that also increased in stats then all you end up with is useless old zones and segregation in the community. Real progression is about increasing challenges, not just bosses with higher health, that just creates a gear treadmill. When you level up to do 10 times more damage to fight something with 10 times more health you are going nowhere and it is only an illusion of progression.

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Really wish more people would understand that bit of information. I get that they enjoy watching their numbers get higher and higher, but then you wind up fighting stuff that also has higher numbers. So it winds up being just as challenging as it was several levels ago. The downside is, now the stuff you were fighting before becomes completely useless to you and a complete snooze fest to fight if you wanted to do something like join up with friends who are lower level.

Thats one of the great things about a system like Defiance, or even the down leveling system of GW2. When you go back and play earlier content, you will have an advantage, but it wont be to the point where you can just sit there letting 50 mobs hit you and take 0 damage and then just 1 shot everything in sight. The content still presents a bit of a challenge, and is still rewarding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tinytina

Challenges, as in new and interesting mechanics. Look at the motherlode and dekuso fights. They are pretty simple but have some basic mechanics to make them more interesting than most other stuff in the game. Build on those ideas, adding in varied and different mechanics that get harder to coordinate. Chat will be fixed, viop will be fixed, I play with other people all the time with no issues with communication right now. Anyway, doing more damage to a mob with more health isn't progression, you are going nowhere.

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Dekuso? The nodes are just extra hp you have to deplete.

Character progress is getting stronger relative to a particular challenge. If I got twice as powerful then the first Hellbugs would be half as threatening. If I level up and go from barely being able to beat hellbugs to being able to overwhelm hellbugs but have tough fights with Dark Matter then the time is well spent. My first day in Defiance I went found some 99ers way ahead of time in the story. Shields weren't a new mechanic, they were just more hp I had to deplete.

Doing more damage when the mob has more hp is not progression. You're right. It's not what I'm asking for here.

Power level needs to be relatively fixed in relationship to a challenge to be beatable. You increase powerlevel of monsters so there is room to increase the power and utility of characters.

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Originally Posted by JonDav

Older zones don't become useless when an MMO has multiple classes which encourages a player to have multiple characters. Those charactera are going to need to utilize those "useless areas".

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Eventually you level up past the beginner area with all classes, then the low level zones become useless again.

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Originally Posted by Lyokira

1) Mixed mob arkfalls
2) Dark Matter arkfalls
3) Arkfall-related PvP

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The first two don't sound particularly challenging.

Yes.. and when you do those very increases that your talking about, you may as well remove the horizontal leveling system and start segregating the maps into zones based on levels...

Oh wait...

That's exactly what Defiance IS NOT, and EXACTLY what makes Defiance a great game.

If you need to "level up!" and prove you've gained something more than what your seeing in the game now, before the first episode has even launched, before the first set of patches have even come in.. before the first DLC has even been introduced..

Perhaps YOU need to look at what's really wrong with the picture, and perhaps this just isn't the game for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JonDav

Older zones don't become useless when an MMO has multiple classes which encourages a player to have multiple characters. Those charactera are going to need to utilize those "useless areas". When an MMO is like defiance, where there is zero incentive to have multiple characters, then yes certain areas become useless. Real progression comes from increasing challenges and you counter the increasing challenge but allowing a player to have noticeably better gear. If two different players both level to 50 and one acquires better gear while the other lingers in gear 20 levels behind, what do you think the result would be? One will deal more damage and live longer than the other. There's no illusion there. It's progression staring you right in the face...

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I think youre kind of missing the point and also foolishly assuming everyone wants to keep rerolling new toons and play every class to max level. Your average player might try out several classes at lower levels, but they generally pick 1 or 2 that they really enjoy and stick with that and never bother to get to high levels with other character. Youre right in that if youre constantly playing alts, the content has purpose. However, for an individual character there is 0 purpose to ever go back and play earlier content int he majority of games. Not only is it not challenging, but you also typically gain no reward (like XP and loot). The only purpose might be if youre trying to do some sort of achievement unlock or to help power level a friend.

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Originally Posted by Lyokira

Eventually you level up past the beginner area with all classes, then the low level zones become useless again.

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Areas get useless anyway. They decided to make quests repeatable for a reason. I bet it involved the vast majority of the world being empty.

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Originally Posted by PseudoCool

Yes.. and when you do those very increases that your talking about, you may as well remove the horizontal leveling system and start segregating the maps into zones based on levels...

Oh wait...

That's exactly what Defiance IS NOT, and EXACTLY what makes Defiance a great game.

If you need to "level up!" and prove you've gained something more than what your seeing in the game now, before the first episode has even launched, before the first set of patches have even come in.. before the first DLC has even been introduced..

Perhaps YOU need to look at what's really wrong with the picture, and perhaps this just isn't the game for you.

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The DLC is coming way too early and has the stink of completing an unfinished game.

Horizontal leveling system is an oxymoron.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JonDav

Older zones don't become useless when an MMO has multiple classes which encourages a player to have multiple characters. Those charactera are going to need to utilize those "useless areas". When an MMO is like defiance, where there is zero incentive to have multiple characters, then yes certain areas become useless. Real progression comes from increasing challenges and you counter the increasing challenge but allowing a player to have noticeably better gear. If two different players both level to 50 and one acquires better gear while the other lingers in gear 20 levels behind, what do you think the result would be? One will deal more damage and live longer than the other. There's no illusion there. It's progression staring you right in the face...

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No one is EVER going to stay in their level 20 gear! Gear is pretty much handed to you as you level in most MMOs. If you level to level 10 and do 100 more damage it doesn't matter because the mobs have 100 more health. What you do at low levels is exactly the same as high levels. The gear isn't better because the ratio of your stats to the contents/mob/boss stats remains the same.

And even with multiple classes old zones still become dead, and when you make an alt there is no one around to play with. This is that "single player game" feeling allot of MMOs end up with and make people want to rush to "endgame" so they can play with people again.

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Originally Posted by jnt

Areas get useless anyway. They decided to make quests repeatable for a reason. I bet it involved the vast majority of the world being empty.

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Yes.. empty... like YOUR HEAD!

The game is tied in with the show.. the show hasn't even aired yet..

What part of "STOP WHINING!" don't you understand. Enjoy the game for what it is and let it EVOLVE like it's designed to do so. Complaining now is like kicking the cow because she didn't squirt you out chocolate milk!

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Originally Posted by Warkaiser

Thats one of the great things about a system like Defiance, or even the down leveling system of GW2. When you go back and play earlier content, you will have an advantage, but it wont be to the point where you can just sit there letting 50 mobs hit you and take 0 damage and then just 1 shot everything in sight. The content still presents a bit of a challenge, and is still rewarding.

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This. Also wish more people on this forum would reply like you did instead of start waving their pitchforks because someone said something that could be seen as negative.

The OP does have a point, there's very little "sense" of progression as you never feel you're getting stronger. That's fine as it means there's always a challenge in killing enemies for you but that lack of feel of progression needs to be addressed in other ways so that you feel like there's a point in staying on the game. Getting into San Francisco was what I was basing my hopes of progression on but that was quite a let down in all honesty.

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Originally Posted by PseudoCool

Yes.. empty... like YOUR HEAD!

The game is tied in with the show.. the show hasn't even aired yet..

What part of "STOP WHINING!" don't you understand. Enjoy the game for what it is and let it EVOLVE like it's designed to do so. Complaining now is like kicking the cow because she didn't squirt you out chocolate milk!

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It's less about lacking comprehension and more like I don't give a **** about your demand I stop whining. Why would I?

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Originally Posted by jnt

It's less about lacking comprehension and more like I don't give a **** about your demand I stop whining. Why would I?

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Ok.. I'm going to break this down for you so that even YOU can understand it...

In most of your MMO's, as you level up, you get more powerful. You start doing more damage.. you get to see those little numbers roll off your target like inverted rain on a hot Oklahoma sunday. And those numbers get HUGE...

So at level 10, your hitting your target for like 30 points of damage per shot. Your feeling pretty puny because it's taking you 10 shots/hits to drop a single enemy. Or maybe 8 if you get lucky and pop a crit.

So.. you jam it out.. and get allll the way up to level 50.. your crafting skill is crazy high, and you've got all the monster gear in the game. You are the bee's knees. Your the cat's pajama's... You are the UBER-PWNZOR!!

So you go into this giant boss fight.. and you hitting this minion with your massive shots doing 4K or 5K per hit.. and his health bar is just dropping, and your like "YEAH MOFO! WHO'S Your Daddy!?!"

But.. here's the thing your NOT catching...

Instead of taking 10 shots (or 8 if you crit) to beat that poor little minion up at level 10 doing 30hp per hit...
Your *STILL* taking 8 to 10 shots at level 50 to beat that new poor little minion up doing 4K per shot.

YOU don't get any more powerful! The enemies just get more HP to deal with your ability to deal out more damage.

Level Progression = Damage Output IS THE GREAT LIE!

If you want to keep drinking that koolaid dude.. there's a litany of games for you to play out there.. go grind away for your gear and your fake and non-glorious progression.

NONE OF THAT is what Defiance IS. Sorry that you spent your $60 on a game that didn't fit your mindset of what "every game should be dammit!", but ya did. Time to either broaden your horizons on gaming, or take the bullet train to "geargrindville". Your call.