Lack of progression will push people away.

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Originally Posted by Cavadus

This game's horizontal progression and extremely inclusive gameplay are the main reasons I play it. If it had a completely banal and trite gear treadmill and progression like a stereotypical MMORPG I'd uninstall the game.

I'm with PseudoCool on this one; I think baddies ask for the stuff in the OP because they need gear to compensate for a lack of personal skill.

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Whilst I can assure you I'd ruin you in every single fps you play me in, it isnt for that reason. People want a feeling of accomplishment and unless the pvp side of things was heavily developed it doesnt provide that, people are literally just grinding out pvp runs for the pursuits.

Theres no requirement for the pve side either because that is also totally under-developed, no skill or gear curve in the missions and a sense of overall blandness to the pve side of the game. People who are good seem to get bored quite quickly of killing the same targets without rhyme nor reason, lack of organised pvp makes it impossible to see progression there either. It's literally just random deathmatch on repeat.

@Anim -
"whilst you can assure me that you can beat me in any fps game.."

Well hells bells sport.. that sounds like a bonafide challenge to me. And exactly what platform are you on?

I guess I'll have to dust off my old Ghost Recon disks and put a spanking on your rooty-pooh-candy-*** then, since I was FEARED in PvP there. Good ole FPS game with good game dynamics.. just really crappy servers.. blech. I'll even host.. tell me the time and place sport, your head's gonna look saaa-weeeeeet on my wall next to all the other self-important so-called leets residing there... *evil grin*

Want some.. COME GET SOME!

Last i checked it wasnt labeled as an mmorpg with massive progression. Its a mmo shooter nice and simple.

You get your perks just as you would in Call of Doody and your meaningless levels. Not sure what you thought you were buying but you need to change your expectations. As soon as you introduce this progression you're seekin you introduce imbalance and a requirement to play this games hour on end in order to progress.

The game is here to enhance the story line of the tv show, and allow people who want to know more of the storyline to be able to pick up the game and not have to invest a ****load of time for your progression.

Its like watching Lord of the Rings then going back and reading the books to get more detail. Only this is somewhat more interactive.

Lack of progression will push away those who want vertical progression.

And that's fine, this game was not designed for them and they have no shortage of games which provide the progression that they want.

If they change this I'll do the same thing I did in GW2 when they went from "we will never add another tier of gear, no gear treadmill here - level and equip by whatever means you want!" to "New tier of gear added, farm the same dungeon repeatedly to get tokens and eventually buy it".

You expect changes in an MMO but if they do a complete 180 degree change then either they have zero faith or the game is failing and they are desperate to save it.

:edit:

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/1831/gw2refund.png

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Originally Posted by Frost033

Please don't get me wrong, this isn't a "I'm leaving" post, but I am looking for a bit of a pep talk. The face is, there is little to no difference between an ego 300 and ego 10. While this is nice for being able to play with other people lower and higher levels, its frustrating because I feel like I'm just spinning my tires. I'm only at EGO 420 or so but the guns I'm finding are EXACTLY the same as the ones I found at 10, 20, 80, 100, etc. Other than story, I'm having a hard time getting motivated to play.

And IF by some chance you do find a gun you enjoy, you only get it for a limited time because the game forces you to use different guns once they're maxed out in XP if you want to gain anymore weapon XP. How does that make ANY sense??

Without any sense of progression people aren't going to be playing this game long. Look at other games, especially MMO's, you have to have SOMETHING that makes people come back for more. Unless I'm missing something, Defiance is missing that hook that makes people stay with a game for an extended period of time.

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there is progression, but you don't start to see it in any real sense until ego 1600+

the real issue is that there isnt enough content in the game to hit that ego rating without whoring yourself out with cloak+sawed off pvp or trying to find an organized group to do co-op pursuits.

This thread has really blown up...wow...good points to made here...both sides...very interesting

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Originally Posted by Dixa

there is progression, but you don't start to see it in any real sense until ego 1600+

the real issue is that there isnt enough content in the game to hit that ego rating without whoring yourself out with cloak+sawed off pvp or trying to find an organized group to do co-op pursuits.

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yes but they are reall small all i would like is faster progression with a little bit bigger bonuses a 1.1 mag for a grenade launcher with a 5 clip ads no grenades whats the point, i was hoping for randomly generated stats but if the bonuses were randomly generated i would be content but it is lacking in this department... also the fact i have seen all the weapons is disheartening (skins,names,stat sets)

totally agree

Progression exists, it is just subtle, and this is a good thing. It means that no content is even rendered trivial once you "outgrow it", while at the same time allowing any player, to go anywhere, for the most part. Yes, you can't go into SF and you can't access some co-op maps right away, but you are able to access and compete/be useful from EGO 10 to EGO 1000.

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Originally Posted by r4serei

Last i checked it wasnt labeled as an mmorpg with massive progression. Its a mmo shooter nice and simple.

You get your perks just as you would in Call of Doody and your meaningless levels. Not sure what you thought you were buying but you need to change your expectations. As soon as you introduce this progression you're seekin you introduce imbalance and a requirement to play this games hour on end in order to progress.

The game is here to enhance the story line of the tv show, and allow people who want to know more of the storyline to be able to pick up the game and not have to invest a ****load of time for your progression.

Its like watching Lord of the Rings then going back and reading the books to get more detail. Only this is somewhat more interactive.

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Please sticky this

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Originally Posted by jnt

See when I look at it I see an unfinished Borderlands MMO, I hope it gets completed via patching.

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The game feels nothing like Borderlands to me. It's not really loot-driven, it lacks the inappropriate, over-done humor, it doesn't offer a sense of progression, perks have a minor impact on the experience, there is no leveling path or difficulty modes, there is very little in the way of farming besides keys, and it doesn't have the same nonstop-killing feel to it. It's a TPS and not a FPS.

I enjoy Defiance, but the frequent claim that it is a Borderlands MMO in any shape is really misleading and either turns people off or disappoints them when they play the actual game. Defiance is more like Just Cause and one of various TPS shooters/action games. I do wish it was more like Borderlands and while I am having fun, even after a couple days it feels a little stagnant.

I heard about this game a little less than a week before it released and I bought it a few days after it dropped and I was pretty much expecting a more or less typical mmorpg experience and it wasn't until maybe a day or so of playing that I realized that this game is what it is. And having played a bunch of mmo's in the past and having played just about every major RPG that's come out in the last couple of years I find this game to be a refreshing change of pace. I like that me and my friends who bought the game on release and are higher EGO than me can group together and everyone can feel like they're being challenged and contributing to the effort. Is it nice to be rewarded with cool gear and awesome powers? Sure, in most games it is but this isn't that type of game and I'm fine with that.

COD essentially has more progression than this game....think about it you have to grind out rank after rank to get access to better weapons, better perks and to improve those weapons and perks. This game the same ****ty whites do the same damage as a legendary weap minus a few little perks. I was curious so I tried it but it instantly feels stale.

This game is filler, something to pass the time until a better game is released. For me its got until the 23rd when Riptide comes out.

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Originally Posted by Frost033

Thank you Zeroexit, this is exactly what I'm talking about. If someone doesn't feel stronger, or more powerful as they level, they won't see the point of leveling up and will then stop seeing the point of actually playing.

People have told me to go play WoW, which I find laughable and expected, but why is that a defense of this game? Its almost as if they're saying if I want to play a game WITH progression I need to go play WoW.

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This thread has become unnecessarily argumentative. Anyway, I have some experience you might find useful. I am playing with 4 other friends. I am an ego 750ish and one other mate is just behind me. 2 guys are around 300 and the last is around 150. There is a definite difference in the strength of our guns. Its not just about damage, but the nano effect, reload speed, clip size, mods, synergies, perks, etc. If you look more into Modding, you'll discover a very addictive side to the game that involves progression. My character is stronger than the weaker of my friends so on pve missions, I try to ease off the trigger to give him a chance of gaining more xp....otherwise, he'd never level with me killing everything. Skill comes into it too. The first time I came up against a hell bug monarch, I got my backside whooped. Now they're a fun and relatively easy task. That's not just because my weapons are stronger but because I've learned and adapted (and my weapon is better too)... aka progression. I'm going through this process with hulkers too atm. Hopefully I'll be able to deal with black lungs and the dudes with the back packs soon too.... all this and I'm not at San Fran. And then there are the 4 free dlcs coming out which will have more enemies, guns, mods, outfits, etc.

All in all, there is progression but not in the WoW/Sky rim style. This game is aimed at a wider audience. I think this may have upset a few traditional MMOers a bit!

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Originally Posted by Jestunhi

If they change this I'll do the same thing I did in GW2 when they went from "we will never add another tier of gear, no gear treadmill here - level and equip by whatever means you want!" to "New tier of gear added, farm the same dungeon repeatedly to get tokens and eventually buy it".

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This is exactly why I unistalled GW2 with the stupid *** FOTM addition. I hope this game never follows suit.

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Originally Posted by Mivo

The game feels nothing like Borderlands to me. It's not really loot-driven, it lacks the inappropriate, over-done humor, it doesn't offer a sense of progression, perks have a minor impact on the experience, there is no leveling path or difficulty modes, there is very little in the way of farming besides keys, and it doesn't have the same nonstop-killing feel to it. It's a TPS and not a FPS.

I enjoy Defiance, but the frequent claim that it is a Borderlands MMO in any shape is really misleading and either turns people off or disappoints them when they play the actual game. Defiance is more like Just Cause and one of various TPS shooters/action games. I do wish it was more like Borderlands and while I am having fun, even after a couple days it feels a little stagnant.

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I disagree on both levels and felt like when my friends explained Defiance to me as a "Borderlands MMO" I knew what to expect (as a positive). Obviously the tonal (sense of humor) and art style differences weren't were they were talking about but comparison to game mechanics / gun loot progression is pretty spot on.

Lol. These treads...

Why does everyone expect every game to be focused on having uber loot or powers to justify them playing? Is there really that much of a need to say "I'm better than you are" in a game? I think the very fact that it plays like a shooter, but is still balanced to the point where noobs can do well in PvP speaks volumes.

If you want to blaze through content and then complain there's no content or progression, then by all means feel free. But you seem to have missed the point. The game was released in a state where it was essentially the PREQUEL to the show, and would continue to evolve alongside said show.

Furthermore, last I checked, the show's premiere is/was today. Therefore the majority of the content that has likely been developed has not been released yet. So by complaining that you don't have enough content... you're really just whining. If what we have right now is all that there is until Season 2, I might agree with you. But I think given we're on the PILOT episode it's way too early to be ranting about how they're doing their content. If there isn't enough for you in the game right now, go play something else for a bit and come back later.

I find it quite funny when people play a game marketed as an MMO because it's different than all the others, but then turn around and complain because it's not designed like other MMOs. Unfortunately, I don't think I'll ever understand the logic behind it.

@Chip - we've been saying the same thing to the "MOAR POWAR!" crowd for weeks now, and their not listening. Unfortunately your words, which are oh so spot on, have fallen on their deaf ears with a softer blow than Rothgars Hammer...

Actually.. I wasn't going to repost on this.. but I just thought about something:

This game, is based and tied directly in with, the TV Show. In that Show tonight, you saw literally HUNDREDS of people with weapons.. and guess what.. NOT A WEAPON was uber-powered or whatnot. So for those of you wanting MOAR POWAH in your weapons, the show just showed you why that's NOT what Defiance is about. Your power is your progression in skills (since we haven't seen anyone with an EGO implant in the show yet), your ability to modify the weapons you get, and you actual SKILL in playing the game.

Nuff Said!

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Originally Posted by PseudoCool

@Chip - we've been saying the same thing to the "MOAR POWAR!" crowd for weeks now, and their not listening. Unfortunately your words, which are oh so spot on, have fallen on their deaf ears with a softer blow than Rothgars Hammer...

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Yeah I know. Unfortunately its a problem with the entire industry, not this one game. I could go on and on about that topic and why I'd rather work on indie games where this isn't as big of an issue.

Hopefully this game doesn't end up turning into a grindfest for uber gear, and content that requires said gear. But... entitled people feel entitled and are usually the loudest. Prior MMOs that started out with people on equal footing quickly changed to gear based models after enough threads like this one.

I think in this case it'd likely ruin the game. And that would make me a saaaaad panda.

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Originally Posted by Frost033

Please don't get me wrong, this isn't a "I'm leaving" post, but I am looking for a bit of a pep talk. The face is, there is little to no difference between an ego 300 and ego 10. While this is nice for being able to play with other people lower and higher levels, its frustrating because I feel like I'm just spinning my tires. I'm only at EGO 420 or so but the guns I'm finding are EXACTLY the same as the ones I found at 10, 20, 80, 100, etc. Other than story, I'm having a hard time getting motivated to play.

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This is a skill based game. Meaning that weapon damage is horizontal to allow skill selection and execution to win the day, not raw numbers. If you prefer a vertical model a la Anarchy Online, World of Warcraft, heck pretty much every MMORPG out there then there you go.

This is how the game was designed, this will not change. Doesn't mean it's not an MMO or it is horrible, just means it's not everyone's cup of tea. No harm in that.

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And IF by some chance you do find a gun you enjoy, you only get it for a limited time because the game forces you to use different guns once they're maxed out in XP if you want to gain anymore weapon XP. How does that make ANY sense??

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I was in the Hate Camp on this mechanic too, but then I realized how stale the game would be running one gun, and honestly as you go up in EGO while the gun damage doesn't change the variety of mod slots, perk bonuses, enhancements surely does and this gives you pause with each weapon to consider it's real value to YOU not just some sliding scale of numbers. Based on how you play and how you see getting an advantage over another player through skill and execution. Again this is not for everyone, some want to grind, need time stinks with reward mile stones, etc.

For me the story is hardly done, I have plenty of side missions, the pursuit list is long and hearty. And with the new Episode content I need to squeeze on in a week before it's gone... well they have me hook line and sinker.

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Without any sense of progression people aren't going to be playing this game long. Look at other games, especially MMO's, you have to have SOMETHING that makes people come back for more. Unless I'm missing something, Defiance is missing that hook that makes people stay with a game for an extended period of time.

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I think you are missing it cause your looking for that vertical progression reward system that just isn't completely here. The EGO rating system is a good measure but it doesn't mean your going to wade through everything without fail, even some place you've been before. The world is big, alive, and dangerous you have to handle yourself appropriately, this to me is enjoyable, immersing, gripping. Though again, not everyone's cup of tea. I'm not going to tell you what you should play, but I think Defiance will cater to a group that does get it and does feel the hook, will that be a large enough group to keep it alive? I think so, the TV show just aired and the buzz meter is off the chart and they are re-airing two more times tonight.

Hope you find what your missing, or end up some place you like better.

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Originally Posted by Buruko

For me the story is hardly done, I have plenty of side missions, the pursuit list is long and hearty. And with the new Episode content I need to squeeze on in a week before it's gone... well they have me hook line and sinker.

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Pursuits are not story. But you are welcome to use this excuse for yourself if it helps you. Sadly I am still looking for one that will make me such a believer.

Actually i think he meant it as 2 different items. Plenty of side missions and pursuits!

sitting at ~400 or so ego havent completed the main mission, very close though.. haven't played since Thursday...

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Originally Posted by Jay

sitting at ~400 or so ego havent completed the main mission, very close though.. haven't played since Thursday...

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The lvls shouldnt exist theres no purpose. I have played almost all shooters and rpgs for the last several years heres my take. Make unique mob only certain lvls can kill . Give unique mod a 1 in 5000 chance of some actual good gear drops , When you die take 5k scrip not 180 thats useless. This game will fail without dome depth i have been through the game and all side missions. i can do at lvl 30 what a lvl 5000 can do so its a good game wtf. Thats like saying baseball shouldnt have outs. If you work for the lvl and earn it it shou;ld be worth somthing.They need content for longterm play bosses whod own anyone below say 3k ego and bosses for the lower egos also.They need a auction house and better weps so we have a reason to grind and play for years.

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Originally Posted by Buruko

This is a skill based game. Meaning that weapon damage is horizontal to allow skill selection and execution to win the day, not raw numbers. If you prefer a vertical model a la Anarchy Online, World of Warcraft, heck pretty much every MMORPG out there then there you go.

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Please stop calling something skill based, just because it's different than majority. There is absolutely no skill required to play it. Or were you thinking about bunny-hopping?

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Originally Posted by bob69

The lvls shouldnt exist theres no purpose. I have played almost all shooters and rpgs for the last several years heres my take. Make unique mob only certain lvls can kill . Give unique mod a 1 in 5000 chance of some actual good gear drops , When you die take 5k scrip not 180 thats useless. This game will fail without dome depth i have been through the game and all side missions. i can do at lvl 30 what a lvl 5000 can do so its a good game wtf. Thats like saying baseball shouldnt have outs. If you work for the lvl and earn it it shou;ld be worth somthing.They need content for longterm play bosses whod own anyone below say 3k ego and bosses for the lower egos also.They need a auction house and better weps so we have a reason to grind and play for years.

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The weapons do scale, albeit slightly, according to EGO rating. EGO rating also limits the amount of items that can be farmed, and then passed down to lower ego payers. If I constantly farm, my EGO will increase, and my items will then be less valuable because people would have to be the same or higher in order to use them.

There aren't really any "better" weapons anyway; an auction house is useless. This isn't WoW or D3, you wouldn't find anything dramatically better.

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Originally Posted by Elandriel

Please stop calling something skill based, just because it's different than majority. There is absolutely no skill required to play it. Or were you thinking about bunny-hopping?

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It is skill based. It relies on you twitch skills and aiming. Just because it's easy, doesn't mean that it's not skill based.

All i know is Trion needs to find some kind of balance this game. I'm 2.600 ego and it' starting to feel repetitive. I'll stick around to see what trion does for for awhile but so far it seems like only changes to this game that are really being made are taking exp key drops outa the game. and it's not balancing the game it's causeing a imbalance. cause now no one has anything to do except do dailys and after that maybe hit a few arkfalls which are getting boring in themselves.And I got to say this it boggles me why some not all Senior members find trashing other opinion's so fun. it's kinda sad actually but i do give props to those senior members that respect others opinions cause as far as i can tell negativity on forums can have a unbalancing effect on the game. as the forums are technically a resource that is used to progress in the game. oh well love me hate it's only a opinion.

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Originally Posted by heraymo

All i know is Trion needs to find some kind of balance this game. I'm 2.600 ego and it' starting to feel repetitive..

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What they need is new content; more challenging content.

We should have been in the first DLC by now, but it's been delayed. Hopefully the DLC will remedy most of these issues.

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Originally Posted by ironhands

What they need is new content; more challenging content.

We should have been in the first DLC by now, but it's been delayed. Hopefully the DLC will remedy most of these issues.

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They also need to give a reason to repeatedly play the new content, otherwise it's just going to be another "play through the instance once & done" unless you REALLY like playing it for the hell of it. That's where my friends and I currently sit at the moment anyway. You don't feel like you are actually working towards anything, there is no " I can't wait to get X weapon/skill/etc".

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Originally Posted by Facade

They also need to give a reason to repeatedly play the new content, otherwise it's just going to be another "play through the instance once & done" unless you REALLY like playing it for the hell of it. That's where my friends and I currently sit at the moment anyway. You don't feel like you are actually working towards anything, there is no " I can't wait to get X weapon/skill/etc".

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Agreed, which is why I'd personally like to see the instances being a lot harder, and have significant bragging rights for completion. I'm on the fence about farming weapons though, leaning towards titles, outfits, weapon skins