Constructive PvE feedback from a guy with more than 2300 EGO.

Hi everybody,

in this topic I'm about to suggest minor changes which in my opinion could lead to major gameplay improvements.
I won't discuss bugs or similar things, I know they're high priority and there is no need to mention them over and over.


PvE:

Road-quests:

-While removing keys had the intention of making all quests equally desirable it instead frustrates people, especially those with higher ego and makes it seem pointless to do them.
-> I'ld suggest a flat amount of 1 key per road quest, so you actually feel like it gets you something.
-> Add a minim damage of ~20.000 damage to trigger (key)-quest rewards in order to avoid drive-by-leaching

-Some road-quests are extremely easy
-> I'ld suggest to increase the extra health mobs get for each additional player around


Co-op mission:
- To cut a long story short
->A clear time scoreboard with monthly/ weekly rewards (maybe one tier4 lockbox)
->A choice between several difficulties
--> A hard mode with increased mob live and damage but a highly increased drop rate
-> Add loot drops for dungeon bosses

PvE in general:
- Drop rates!:
-> I have killed 26.000 mobs, the drop rate bonus upon headshots was the first perk I skilled. I also had loot-boost equipped for quite a while;
Not a single orange item has dropped for me so far!
While I do appreciate low drop rates in order to avoid farming I have to say that the current rate for purple or orange drops is just plain frustrating.

Instead people farm events now, that's not much better since the problem remains the same but is even more frustrating



PvE and PvP:

Modding:

-Increase the price of mods
-Allow mods to be re-used without the destruction of the item
-Allow individual removal of mods

Reason:
The game was advertised having a revolutionary modding system where toying around with your weapons would be a huge gameplay element.
->The current state is frustrating, you either loose your mod or your weapon
-->It encourages people to not mod there weapons at all, fearing that they'ld be punished for attaching them.
-->Mods might be cheap, but since it is luck based if you can re-again it's just plain frustrating to loose one


That's it for now, I'll eventually add more aspects later on.

Sincerely

Sdric

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Originally Posted by Sdric

Co-op mission:
- To cut a long story short
->A clear time scoreboard with monthly/ weekly rewards (maybe one tier4 lockbox)
->A choice between several difficulties
--> A hard mode with increased mob live and damage but a highly increased drop rate
-> Add loot drops for dungeon bosses

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I agree and to add in, they should implement in several unique weapon sets(skins/stats) that can only be acquired in the co-op missions that is acceptably rare(rare enough to encourage replay ability but common enough that it isn't a grind fest)

But yeah, as it is, once I complete the pursuits in them I don't feel like doing them ever again.

Well im still "gimping" around Ego Level 400+, since I dont have that much time to invest in this Game, but what annoys me the most ist the Inventory. There is no Bank or "side inventory" or other posibility to arrange or stash Items that you want to keep. I have (so far) 4 Weapons maxed out that i want to keep and a choise of grenade types and shields, which I keep to use on certain occasions, or when I respecc to try another playstyle. But I always need to remember which they are, so that I dont try to salvage or sell them. Even if they are attached to a Loadout, its quite annoying since you are still seeing them in the selvage menu.

Besides that I agree with you about the Modding part, I keep some Mods, but I'm waiting for an at least Epic weapon to use them, since I dont want to loose the Mod or another good Weapon.

The Game is a lot of Fun! And I think to reach Ego Level 2000+ like you will take me at least 2-3 Month.... ^^

Must agree.

Main issue I have is that there seems to be no real point to doing anything. Weapons aren't exactly better and you just grind to get keys to get lockboxes which 90% of the time you just sell it all.... total waste. In most MMOs you'll run a dungeon knowing there's a chance you'll get this brilliant item for your class and you'll use it for ages until the next level item.

Considering there's next to no difference with EGO levels on items why not unique skins and models, special particle effects and glowy **** on them.

Defiance needs to make it's mind up on if it wants to stay bland or actually do something with the Aesthetics or make loot more than just a random chance game which doesn't actually improve you in any meaningful way.

Given that loot isn't a huge improvement I don't see why they don't just let orange and purple drop from the sky all over everywhere. It'd make it tons more fun. Right now it just feels like grind (even though I enjoy the gameplay itself).

The gameplay is fine, just make it feel really rewarding and they'd have a hit.

Right now it's like "eh do I want to log in to get white drops which I'll have to spend the next five minutes chopping into salvage painfully at like 300 clicks a piece".

Those are all good ideas and points. I also agree with Celephais' comment about the need for a bank or a stash, since I have the same problem as he does. I have some maxed out purple items, and an orange one, that I would use if I didn't need weapon xp for the weapon skills. If I could store those somewhere, that would be fantastic. I want to say that I would even pay for this, but it is really a fairly basic feature.

I would also like to get a blue+ item at the end of a coop instance. The lockboxes are a nice gimmick, but they should not be the only viable source of gear upgrades, in part also because spending a portion of my playing time salvaging items one at a time is really not fun. :)

I agree Sarin.

Id like to see skins for weapons only available in Co Op missions and only as a rare drop chance from the boses.

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Originally Posted by Sarin

Must agree.

Main issue I have is that there seems to be no real point to doing anything. Weapons aren't exactly better and you just grind to get keys to get lockboxes which 90% of the time you just sell it all.... total waste. In most MMOs you'll run a dungeon knowing there's a chance you'll get this brilliant item for your class and you'll use it for ages until the next level item.

Considering there's next to no difference with EGO levels on items why not unique skins and models, special particle effects and glowy **** on them.

Defiance needs to make it's mind up on if it wants to stay bland or actually do something with the Aesthetics or make loot more than just a random chance game which doesn't actually improve you in any meaningful way.

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I think the entire point is that the weapons are supposed to be almost the same except for various bonuses so the entire game has an equal feel. It's no fun to play a game where someone is doing a ton more damage than you just because they have played the game longer and it could cause issues with like 4k ego players with 4000 damage bolt action sniper rifles ruining the early game arkfalls and stuff for players.

In my opinion the game is not supposed to be an endless lootfest where you just spend your entire day grinding in hopes that you will get a new item that increases your dps by 0.5, but rather a story based game that you return to at least once a week after watching the most recent episode. I feel like they want players to be able to rejoin the game at any point to do the Mission pursuits (and other added content) without having to worry about their gear being outdated.

Not to mention the fact that the enemies right now are based around the exact weapon damage, meaning that if I headshot a raider with my sniper he is most likely going to die, and buffing weapon damage/stats might put the game in a situation where a headshot from my rifle isn't lethal anymore.

Just like to add one thing, the only reason I don't mod my weapons is because its not worth it, until your 20 in every weapon its simply not worth the time effort or scrip, this is mainly because we have to swap weapons every 30 mins to keep leveling.

Think the best way to make mods more desireable is to give us the ability to reset or weapons xp, or allow us to keep leveling with it past its cap.

At the same time purples and orange items would become more desireable, Im over 2k ego now and I've yet to bother with blue/purple or orange items, simply not worth it.

Co-ops should give the same rewards as major arkfalls at the end. It's not that hard, really, to warrant guaranteed oranges or anything. Then, they should add Hard mode with increased damage and hp mobs across the board, stuff like rockets one-shotting etc, that reward a T4 box. Maybe, extra keycodes as well. Or, at the very least, T3 box + a random mod cache, the same you can buy from the lockbox vendor.

Shadow war should be more rewarding as well. I've only done a dozen or so since launch and while it is fun, at times, it's kind of pointless. But, whatever you do, do not go the route of the new trend of MMOs where losing is rewarded, that just promotes people losing as fast as possible.

IMO. Open world stuff should reward keycodes and Major arkfalls/co-op lockboxes. As it is now, people only do co-ops for the contract/pursuit.

The way it was before with loot and keycodes dropping left and right was silly but there should be a reliable way to get stuff as well for those that want to. Of course, there becomes the issue of "why would yoou spend money on bits to buy lockboxes if they are too easy to get" which, from a consumer standpoint can easily be ignored but from the standpoint of a company trying to make money to pay wages, upkeep, support infrastructure and BDSM parties, I can see why they wouldn't want to hand stuff out either.

One potential path to take in order to make certain loot more appealing could be giving some items the ability to give you an additional rank to a perk, setting it at 4/3 instead of 3/3. This would obviously mean some tweaking, and selection of which perks that would fit the bill, but it should be doable without making everything unbalanced.

Overall it could also be interesting to see purples being made slightly more common from certain activities (as these often come with a bonus such as 15% grenade recharge), whilst making these bonuses more diverse to give us an incentive to either keep looking for just the right weapon, or to build up (mod) multiple weapons we want to carry around for certain builds.

Having a weapon for example give you a slight movement speed bonus, or some damage mitigation while the EGO ability is active, could give us something to go for without upsetting the balance too much. Obviously it should be done carefully in the first generation to avoid overpowering anything.

To be honest I lost my reason to play at EGO 1070 within 4 days of the release. Little sad and waiting for some more content. Love the game just nothing edging me on to play on.

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Originally Posted by Sarin

Must agree.

Main issue I have is that there seems to be no real point to doing anything. Weapons aren't exactly better and you just grind to get keys to get lockboxes which 90% of the time you just sell it all.... total waste.

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Yeah i'm spending all hard earned keys on mods and got 99% ****, which i sell 5 seconds after. Very frustrating...

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Originally Posted by Sdric

Hi everybody,

in this topic I'm about to suggest minor changes which in my opinion could lead to major gameplay improvements.
I won't discuss bugs or similar things, I know they're high priority and there is no need to mention them over and over.


PvE:

Road-quests:

-While removing keys had the intention of making all quests equally desirable it instead frustrates people, especially those with higher ego and makes it seem pointless to do them.
-> I'ld suggest a flat amount of 1 key per road quest, so you actually feel like it gets you something.
-> Add a minim damage of ~20.000 damage to trigger (key)-quest rewards in order to avoid drive-by-leaching

-Some road-quests are extremely easy
-> I'ld suggest to increase the extra health mobs get for each additional player around


Co-op mission:
- To cut a long story short
->A clear time scoreboard with monthly/ weekly rewards (maybe one tier4 lockbox)
->A choice between several difficulties
--> A hard mode with increased mob live and damage but a highly increased drop rate
-> Add loot drops for dungeon bosses

PvE in general:
- Drop rates!:
-> I have killed 26.000 mobs, the drop rate bonus upon headshots was the first perk I skilled. I also had loot-boost equipped for quite a while;
Not a single orange item has dropped for me so far!
While I do appreciate low drop rates in order to avoid farming I have to say that the current rate for purple or orange drops is just plain frustrating.

Instead people farm events now, that's not much better since the problem remains the same but is even more frustrating



PvE and PvP:

Modding:

-Increase the price of mods
-Allow mods to be re-used without the destruction of the item
-Allow individual removal of mods

Reason:
The game was advertised having a revolutionary modding system where toying around with your weapons would be a huge gameplay element.
->The current state is frustrating, you either loose your mod or your weapon
-->It encourages people to not mod there weapons at all, fearing that they'ld be punished for attaching them.
-->Mods might be cheap, but since it is luck based if you can re-again it's just plain frustrating to loose one


That's it for now, I'll eventually add more aspects later on.

Sincerely

Sdric

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Good list and agree with most of it, the co-op hard mode, not sure if that would work out with no weapon and shields getting stronger and being same level throughout the game. I'd also add making pvp and pve nerfs and buffs separate as health and shields are different in both content and can have negatives on either side. Fix mod drops and acquisition to coincide with your suggestions and maybe add faction vendors that specialise in mods only.

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--> A hard mode

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Indeed. Co-op hard mode just makes sense. Not really sure why Trion didn't ship with that, unless they didn't want to discourage people with extreme difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Evilution

Good list and agree with most of it, the co-op hard mode, not sure if that would work out with no weapon and shields getting stronger and being same level throughout the game. I'd also add making pvp and pve nerfs and buffs separate as health and shields are different in both content and can have negatives on either side. Fix mod drops and acquisition to coincide with your suggestions and maybe add faction vendors that specialise in mods only.

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People would just have to be ... you know ... better

Hard modes would be awesome, but I'd prefer the difference to be that of a T4 lockbox to a T3 lockbox reward-wise.

You can get the ****ty one for a low chance of something decent, or you can run the hard one (with friends, pugs should be a disaster) for a much better chance of the same decent thing. I absolutely love the horizontal progression idea, though I wouldn't be against unique skins for the hardmodes/T4 lockboxes. It goes without saying hardmode pursuits would reward truly badass outfits.

In all, the game is lacking content that requires skill, communication, and tactics-- not the typical numbers-grinding/spreadsheet hero "challenging" content from other games. I'd much rather the players that clear the hardest content earn it with their own skill and cunning, rather than be able to be "good" because of what they have equipped.

Pretty much everyone can agree the current co-op missions are a joke, though. My level 10 infectors and sawed-off shotguns are in the corner if you disagree.

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Originally Posted by Anim

People would just have to be ... you know ... better

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It's all well in saying that, but when a game focuses on none scaling items and enemies that don't really scale in difficulty, it could be really hard to implement. You can say people need to be better, but when a games item system doesn't scale with the increased difficulty of a group of enemies in an instance, it can be more about the game mechanics than actual player skill.

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Originally Posted by Evilution

It's all well in saying that, but when a game focuses on none scaling items and enemies that don't really scale in difficulty, it could be really hard to implement. You can say people need to be better, but when a games item system doesn't scale with the increased difficulty of a group of enemies in an instance, it can be more about the game mechanics than actual player skill.

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No non-elite enemies, more enemies, and have a higher proportion of enemies with nano effects. Scale up the hitpoints on the bosses so you can't ignore the adds and burn through like players frequently do in the easy mode versions. Doesn't seem that difficult to me.

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Originally Posted by Evilution

It's all well in saying that, but when a game focuses on none scaling items and enemies that don't really scale in difficulty, it could be really hard to implement. You can say people need to be better, but when a games item system doesn't scale with the increased difficulty of a group of enemies in an instance, it can be more about the game mechanics than actual player skill.

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There is certainly room to expand as far as difficulty go without having to re-evaluate gear though. As of now you can pretty much zerg through a coop without anyone saying a word. Just increasing difficulty to where communication becomes important, as well as priority targets and using f.ex Decoys, Flashbangs, Bionades/CC-Infectors and BMGs defensively, would go a long way.

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Originally Posted by Evilution

It's all well in saying that, but when a game focuses on none scaling items and enemies that don't really scale in difficulty, it could be really hard to implement. You can say people need to be better, but when a games item system doesn't scale with the increased difficulty of a group of enemies in an instance, it can be more about the game mechanics than actual player skill.

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The point is that the player skill overcomes the increased difficulty, one-off instances may be harder to scale up as you go but they still could. In a big post coming up I suggest that to give people a sense of competition you could start to do things like the L4D style survival instances with leaderboards for longest survival times, along with a load of other suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Jack Johnson

No non-elite enemies, more enemies, and have a higher proportion of enemies with nano effects. Scale up the hitpoints on the bosses so you can't ignore the adds and burn through like players frequently do in the easy mode versions. Doesn't seem that difficult to me.

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I can understand that, as way of increased difficulties. I just had a different picture in mind, maybe from playing different hard modes in other games clouded my perspective :p

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Originally Posted by Evilution

It's all well in saying that, but when a game focuses on none scaling items and enemies that don't really scale in difficulty, it could be really hard to implement. You can say people need to be better, but when a games item system doesn't scale with the increased difficulty of a group of enemies in an instance, it can be more about the game mechanics than actual player skill.

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I do not see the rationale behind stating that your effective strength doesn't increase, it's simply not true.

How does a shield with +50% hp regen doesn't increase your survival?
How does an assault rifle with increased accuracy, damage, a SCOPE, and increased melee damage, all from mods, not make it better than one without? Or synergy bonuses that increase it's effectiveness even more, a faster reload and reduced recoil?

Just because it's DPS on the sheet doesn't increase, doesn't mean it's not better than a lvl200 white.

Then we have perks that drastically change how your character functions. Just because there isn't an arbitrary number increase every time you "level up" doesn't mean there is no progression. It's a typical MMO mindset and it's simply WRONG. The progression is slow, and more subtle but it most certainly is there.

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Originally Posted by Hexi

I do not see the rationale behind stating that your effective strength doesn't increase, it's simply not true.

How does a shield with +50% hp regen doesn't increase your survival?
How does an assault rifle with increased accuracy, damage, a SCOPE, and increased melee damage, all from mods, not make it better than one without? Or synergy bonuses that increase it's effectiveness even more, a faster reload and reduced recoil?

Just because it's DPS on the sheet doesn't increase, doesn't mean it's not better than a lvl200 white.

Then we have perks that drastically change how your character functions. Just because there isn't an arbitrary number increase every time you "level up" doesn't mean there is no progression. It's a typical MMO mindset and it's simply WRONG. The progression is slow, and more subtle but it most certainly is there.

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Maybe I worded it wrong saying none scaling items, but that doesn't change the fact that the increases are minor. They put it in game to try and make it an even playing field for everyone, so the difficulty increases have to be inclined with that. Don't get me wrong, the co-op instances as they stand are easy as is, we shouldn't just think I want to level this weapon and just run 'n' gun through the whole thing. But the game has set itself it's own barriers when it comes to high increases in difficulties, there's a fine margain between racking up difficulty and weapon/ego progression in this game.

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Originally Posted by Evilution

Maybe I worded it wrong saying none scaling items, but that doesn't change the fact that the increases are minor. They put it in game to try and make it an even playing field for everyone, so the difficulty increases have to be inclined with that. Don't get me wrong, the co-op instances as they stand are easy as is, we shouldn't just think I want to level this weapon and just run 'n' gun through the whole thing. But the game has set itself it's own barriers when it comes to high increases in difficulties, there's a fine margain between racking up difficulty and weapon/ego progression in this game.

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I agree, the tuning of any possible "hard modes" need to be done EXTRA carefully, and also take into consideration perk choices available as to not force people into a certain build JUST to survive but as they currently are I, personally, find them all trivial and boring. That however, I just *MY* personal opinion and in no way am I trying to suggest or argue that everyone does or should find them as such as well. What I am suggesting is that could be a "bit" harder, not extremely.

I don't understand why I can get 2x blue+ drops from a major arkfall or a blue drop from killing a Tanker but don't get a weapon drop from killing a co-op boss, even if this isn't a traditional MMO and even if there is no difference really between EGO rating weapons people are still gonna want to grind for loot. If Trion can't come up with something that will drive people to replay the content (leaderboards/skins/orange drops) then there is no way they can release enough content to keep people happy.

I wasn't in Beta but I'm starting to wish I was because whoever didn't give feed back on the mechanics like 1 lvl weapons and no loot bosses should be ashamed. I really like the concept of this game but in a market now dominated by game w/o subscriptions you really have to hold onto a player base right at launch and if you can't they'll just move onto the next game.

Personally I'll give the game some time but I'm currently Beta testing a few other games and Defiance is gonna have to fight for my time.

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Originally Posted by Hexi

I agree, the tuning of any possible "hard modes" need to be done EXTRA carefully, and also take into consideration perk choices available as to not force people into a certain build JUST to survive but as they currently are I, personally, find them all trivial and boring. That however, I just *MY* personal opinion and in no way am I trying to suggest or argue that everyone does or should find them as such as well. What I am suggesting is that could be a "bit" harder, not extremely.

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I'd like an instance that forces to mess with builds to only just survive, whilst people want instances a bit harder, I'd love a nearly impossible mode. The kind where you can see that somehow it's just about possible but it's going to take perfection.

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Originally Posted by Otaku

I don't understand why I can get 2x blue+ drops from a major arkfall or a blue drop from killing a Tanker but don't get a weapon drop from killing a co-op boss, even if this isn't a traditional MMO and even if there is no difference really between EGO rating weapons people are still gonna want to grind for loot. If Trion can't come up with something that will drive people to replay the content (leaderboards/skins/orange drops) then there is no way they can release enough content to keep people happy.

I wasn't in Beta but I'm starting to wish I was because whoever didn't give feed back on the mechanics like 1 lvl weapons and no loot bosses should be ashamed. I really like the concept of this game but in a market now dominated by game w/o subscriptions you really have to hold onto a player base right at launch and if you can't they'll just move onto the next game.

Personally I'll give the game some time but I'm currently Beta testing a few other games and Defiance is gonna have to fight for my time.

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People gave lots of feedback in alpha/beta. Turnover time from feedback to implementation was rather... bad, though.

Current instances are maybe Mass Effect 3 Silver difficulty . I'd love to see hardmodes equivalent to Mass Effect 3 Platinum difficulty. Just my opinion though. Even if it only ramped up to say the equivalent of Gold difficulty that'd be going somewhere.

Thanks for the positive feedback and support.

If I gather my information right the main issue for most people really is the lack of challenge plus an according reward, especially in co-op instances.