almost...every...single......game....is an rpg. any game you assume the role of anything, is a ROLE playing game. again, wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicshark
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almost...every...single......game....is an rpg. any game you assume the role of anything, is a ROLE playing game. again, wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicshark
Scientific Method says I'm right. I had a question I made a test, the test proves the data, and it is Repeatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obvious Lee
one test by YOUR standards. not the gaming communities. I could also make a test, and input the variables as i see fit, and get the responses i want too. you have to do extensive tests. multiple layered, multi-form, multi-sequence tests. not just what you feel like should be on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicshark
Incorrect, you can say you become Lara Croft, but not really. Have you assumed the role of the Tetris Master? What I am doing is putting games to a scientific test, if it score positive it is a RPG no matter what it is sold as, it is also a repeatable test that can be measured to ever game ever made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obvious Lee
What it shows really is sometime in the last 10 years game developers have been making games based on RPG mechanics more often, and have not been selling the games as RPG. The error here is not noticing this, the metric still works.
when you play tomb raider, you are assuming the role of.......laura croft. you play AS lara croft. your single role in that game, is to do what laura is supposed to do. thus, a role...playing....game. why is this concept so difficult to grasp? and tetris? no, there is no character to play as, therefore no role to assume. and what your test shows, is only what you and your friend thought of. its not BAD, just incorrect.Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicshark
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obvious Lee
Agreed, and I have been, the list of 10 things are the 10 most common traits of all games sold as RPG, not all ten traits are found in all RPGs but usually they have at least 6-7 of them, and they are not all the same Final Fantasy you don't choose your Character or Quests, Mass Effect 2 had no inventory.. But all in all these 10 things exist in almost every RPG. You can then quibble over the value of what is important, most RPG players feel Naming and choose your own adventure are the most important. But when you name the open sandbox RPGs the list is actually fairly small compared to the rest of the RPGs, so Naming became the most valuable portion.
So basically you are saying you dislike my scientific method, but agree that Defiance is a RPG. Thats ok, most people dislike science I don't mind but my method works and that is all that matters in science, does it work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obvious Lee
i can see, and understand that. however, what "feels important" and "concrete fact" dont always float in the same boat. my point, simple as though it may be, is that damn near every game that you control a character, group of characters, or an army is in fact, a role playing game, down to it's simplest discriptive form.
Actually, I feel consistently overpowered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Obvious Lee
An artistic person may agree, and you are arguing from the stand point of my roommate, where as i argue from the engineering perspective that a RPG is a label given to games built based on classic Pen and Paper Role Playing Games, and the actual parts of a RPG are required to be called RPG. But in doing this debate I was forced to use my training as an engineer to test RPGs to find what parts are actually used and what truly made them RPGs mechanically. In the end only ten parts remain consistent, and that is how I came to my system. It is testable and repeatable, and games in the last ten years have all slowly become RPGs.
so again. everything is an rpg. glad we came to this conclusion lol.
Yes basically we agree but for vastly different reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obvious Lee
Me: Defiance is a RPG because it has these RPG mechanics and so it is a RPG.
You: Defiance is a RPG because I feel connected to my character and play the role.
Haters: Defiance is not a RPG because Dev guy said it was a shooter.
@ this argument about whether Defiance is an RPG - you level up, gain new skills, and get better loot. It is as much of an RPG as Mass Effect, that is to say, part RPG, part shooter. People talking about horizontal gear progression are sort of full of shtako for the most part, there's definitely vertical progression, rolling items with 3 +10-15% stats, on kill-bonus, synergies, 4-slots open, and a nano-effect is SUBSTANTIALLY better than your starting white weapons. With the right rolls, you can have a weapon critting twice as hard as a white counterpart... that's definitely vertical stat-growth.
i agree that we agree on the agreement. yes. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicshark
Sorry but this is a rather ridiculous system, especially considering only like 3 of those things have anything to do with RPG. Role playing games are, and have been since their days of P&P games long before the video game versions we all play now, simply games in which the focus is on the story & development of the character. Where your character, not you the player, determine what can and cannot be done. If you want to be capable of, or increase the chances of being capable, your character must meet certain stat requirements. It doesnt matter how good, fast, smart, etc you as a player are, you are still restricted by the limitations of your character.Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicshark
RPG has absolutely nothing to do with things like is there currency, the formatting of quests / content, or several other things you listed. It comes down to 2 pretty simple things really:
1) Are you capable or incapable of doing something because of your character or because of your own personal abilities?
2) Is how effective you are at doing the things you are capable of determined by your character, or your skill as the player?
If the answer to both of those is because of your character, youre playing an RPG. If it is because of you the player, it is not an RPG.
Now sure, some games do blend a bit of both. Defiance does do this, but it is much more heavily based on player twitch / shooter skill rather than character ability & progression. Id say on a 10 scale, about a 7 player vs 3 character based. That is why it is primarily considered a shooter, with some RPG elements.
On the other hand you have games such as Darkfall which while having a somewhat similar TPS/FPS style of gameplay like Defiance are much much more heavily character based. Your stats (strentgh, dexterity, intelligence, etc) as well as your weapon skill levels (bow, sword, greatsword, daggers, etc) and ability levels (levels of actual passive and usable skills & spells) and your gear are what determine the majority of your power. Darkfall is more of a 6 character based / 4 player based game. Bringing it just slightly over the edge of being a straight up hybrid into the realm of being considered an RPG. Player skill does play a larger factor than in most RPGs, but no matter how good you are you simply will not be capable of somethings, like breaking the HP regen of certain enemies if your character is lacking in stats and gear.
With most WoW/EQ style games its almost purely character based. Player ability only really factors in to certain situations, such as are you good at kiting, positioning, etc. Knowing the mechanics of your class & having a good rotation of kills factors in, but this is still rooted heavily in what your character is capable of based on their level, stats, and gear. Evidence of this is easily found in the fact that no matter how well you know the mechanics, how good your rotation is, or how good you are at kiting, positioning, etc you simply cannot do certain things like take on much higher level enemies because due to the RPG mechanics the game is based on you will usually be incapable of landing the majority of your attacks, will do no damage when yo do, and will be killed in 1 hit.
Same goes with other aspects of those and other RPGs. Can you pick a certain lock, and what are your chances of success? Up to your character. Can you wear certain equipment? Up to your character. Can you pickpocket someone, and the chances of success? Up to your character. Can you detect & disarm traps? Up to your character.
Hello Goth, i would like to add that there are specific reasons alot of people would rather this game be classified as shooter than an rpg.Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicshark
Ive never played WoW, played Runes of Magic for the past 4-5, yrsbest looking gear grinding, fully customizable game game,and the odds of actually finding someone thats looks like you is 500-1. Crafting (pots/armor/weapons/food)), ah, raids, instances with bosses that have loot tables, item set, including item set skill, starting at lvl 55, then 60, 65, 70, 75. The odds of actually getting the item you want from a specific boss is luck of the draw, and each weapon/armor has durability, so anything over 100dura gives a 20% damage boost, 12 pieces of armor u can wear at any time including (hands, legs, feet, shoulder, upper body, headpiece, wings, 2 rings, 2 earrings, and 1 necklace, not including weapons. Each item can be plused up to 16 that increases ghost stats.
Defiance has none of this. It fails to deliver even the basic rpg elements, and the rpg elements it does present, is so shallow, and simple, that ive seen it done better in other games and still kept the core mechanics in place.
So no, labeling it a shooter excuses the lack of content, and the horizontal progression. They could've atleast gave the player the option to fully customize the look so not to look like a clone of arkhunter, but they dug themselves(Trion) into a hole with the balance issue. Soon the higher ego isnt going to net the beast mode ability because the mobs are always scaled to the player. Leaving out the reason to challenge anyone to literally skip everything in the begining without fear of being under powered
Its a shame, to much balance will leave you feeling empty, and how can there be skill when the mobs scale????
I feel so underpowered I should just go to bed...
Or maybe that's because I actually got away from the forums for a few hours and feel more.. well.. normal now?
So on you Razor Mass Effect 1 was a RPG, because the leveling system included an internal dice roll mechanic based on your character sheet, but because Mass Effect 2 & 3 choose to be Skill based shooting with Character progression side powers they stopped being RPGs and became fully adventure shooters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warkaiser
Since everyone agrees that RPGs are based on the classic Pen and Paper style games than every single game based on pen and paper should have a dice roll skill that progresses. Yes? No? I can off the top of my head name one great pen and paper game system which does not contain this mechanic. Doctor Who RPG: Adventures in Time and Space it has everything in it, but a leveling system. Once you create your character you can gain gear but you do not get skill points, you do not grow more powerful. BTW it is a fun game played it for a year a while back.
As Ive said in other threads about customizing your look:Quote:
Originally Posted by Daholic
Yes they could have added tons more customization, but it would have killed the game in performance. Even in standard MMOs with tab targeting systems, not requiring precise aim for everything, high customization forces the game to have to render a whole lot more stuff and causes the games to take a huge hit in FPS performance. Large scale battles in games with decent to good graphics and too much customization (a dozen pieces of gear, every piece able to be dyed & customized, additional cosmetic effects like auras, etc) cause anything but the highest performing systems to come to a crawl. This is why youve seen more and more games recently which want to be capable of large scale combat go the route of either a) offering less customization (like Aika) or b) using placeholders and limiting the amount of players rendered in PvP (like Guild Wars 2). Thats also part of the reason why many MMOs go the route of cartoony / stylized graphics rather than realism, because it is much less demanding on systems. Usually the more realistic the games look the harder they get hit with FPS & performance issues.
Now just think how that would work in a game like Defiance. Its a shooter. You need precision to land your shots. FPS stuttering will get you killed, and cause you to fail at killing, a lot. Not just in larger scale PvP like Shadow Wars, but also in events where there are a lot of players around like Arkfalls. The game would turn into a scenario where those with the best computers will always perform the best, and everyone else becomes pretty useless because they cant even land a shot due to enemies skipping around their screen between FPS spikes & drops.
This was a problem in Darkfall as well. Of course, Darkfall didnt have great graphics, but performance wise it was designed pretty badly (only using single core, etc). Anyway, thats beside the point. The issue was this. Someone with a lower / mid range system might have decent FPS when its just them, maybe a few other people around fighting and stuff. Then one of those players tries to go to a siege with 50-100 players. It turns into,this.. you see an enemy, try to cast a spell at them, your game stutters / freezes, and youre dead before your game renders the 5 guys who just surrounded you and attacked you with no problem because theyre playing on a better PC. I was, unfortunately, one of thos eplayers for a long time in the original Darkkfall. I had a pretty crappy system at the time, only running the game around 25-30 FPS in the best of situations. Trying to PvP when there was more than like 6 people around, especially a lot of magic being thrown around, brought me down to about 10 FPS... basically making me unable to do anything. Ended up just not bothering to try until I got a new system.
That is basically what would wind up happening in large battles if Defiance had either a) amazing graphics or b) too much customization & variety for every single character. It would especially be a major issue for the console versions, since they cant be upgraded. But even on PC, they dont want to block out a large portion of players from being able to enjoy the game just because they didnt pay as much for an upgraded PC.
It's a TPS with RPG elements. That doesn't make it an MMORPG. It makes it a MMOTPS with RPG elements.Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicshark
This. Saying that this is an RPG is like adding soy sauce and tofu to something and calling it an Asian dish, or adding sauerkraut to something and claiming it to be German cuisine.Quote:
Originally Posted by cfStatic
I understand the world of RPGs have been tainted by the beast called WOW, however one of the greatest MMOs in history didn't have any of the things WOW is noted for. City of Heroes was mechanically based on the Early Champions Pen and Paper RPG, they didn't need an inventory system, they didn't need stat based gear. What they had was super powers and colorful costumes which were individual and fun. In many ways Defiance feels a lot like City of heroes, even the way you do questing. the progression is aimed more for defense than for damage, although weapons do level, and weapon skills also level, this increases your stats such as reload times and damage modifiers like crits. I find this system to be a breath of fresh air for MMOs, it rewards skills and levels equally, but if you are just starting you have a good chance against someone max level with no skills. (granted to get max level without skill seems a bit of a stretch since unskilled players will fail on boss fights and in PVP, and then complain on the forms and rage quit.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Daholic
Let ma ask you a question, considering everything you just said, and i wanted to say i do understand what your saying..but...Do you believe Trion pushed the limits with Defiance? Used everything the ps3 had to offer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Warkaiser
In pure graphics, definitely not. But to keep it performing relatively well in a seamless open world with so many players capable of being in one location at once, perhaps not the limits, but pretty close. Other shooters, like CoD, Gears, etc look much better, but youre also talking much smaller lobby based maps, not an open world, and a smaller number of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daholic
Quite the opposite, actually. The PvE/AI has zero chance in hell and I feel overpowered as all sin.
You do feel more powerful as you go along...although it largely depends on what perks and weapons/mods you use. Even so, upgrades across the board are not needed as the game can't really bite back to begin with.
I always thought it was unrealistic in games to struggle through one area only to return nigh invincible, like you do in Borderlands. I really appreciate the more subtle leveling system in Defiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by ozikeri
Why do you need overpower anyway? What is this obsession people have? Like those who use hacks in pvp games? What's the point? They might as well just write down "I win, and am totally cool!" On a sheet of paper, lay it on the ground and dance around it.
I mean girls never liked me in high school, and I was nerd, with next to no friends. I had myself a daily dose of shame back then. And to be honest my adult life isn't much different. Yet somehow I don't feel the need to hack a game, even though I often suck out loud.
Because the harder a game is, the more satisfying it is when you actually progress or accomplish something. I had a hard time with the elite blacklungs, now I feel a morbid satisfaction in defeating them.
All being overpowered in a game is going to do is make it feel worse when you lose. Look at Halo's solo campaign, even on max difficulty it is nowhere near as hard as the pvp stuff.
Defiance is the game Borderlands should have been.
I'm still waiting to find anything orange. over 1000 EGO and .................................................. ............cricketsQuote:
Originally Posted by ozikeri
im ego 2300 when i go back to earth republic starting point i own **** ive gone back there and soloed arkfalls i cant die.
Frontier repeater with tachyon barrel is a kill carnival. I can almost 2 shot blacklungs lol. then again my bolt action is 17. Even semis will one shot most raiders with tachyon. I still think semis need more ammo.
Actually that extra ammo u get when u reload, i wish it stayed even if u switch weapins. it is for when u ammo up with 0 ammo, but even if u don't u can use the extra as long as u don't switch. I really wish thst ammo was permanent
Quote:
Originally Posted by TH3STEVE
A clanmate on the forums OMG. At least i think we are.
SAW is the name of it
I think it is great there is not much difference wherever you go on the map.
#1 It works both ways. If you wanna run off to other areas right away you can. You are not confined by your level to being forced into playing in one or two zones.
#2 It also helps stop ghost zones. Face it most people rarely ever go back to a zone they out level. Why even have that content if people only use it only a few days to a week before leaving and not coming back.
#3 It does not end up like most other MMOs where everyone is all clustered in the high level zones.
Gear does get a bit more powerful as your ego increases, but the differences is so minor you would not notice. Shield for example average 10 points of shields per 100 ego rating.