MMO companys never learn

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Originally Posted by ironhands

/ooc porting to PoSKy 5 mins at the nexus stone

Sometimes I really miss hardcore EQ, especially corpse runs.

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^^^^^^

Agree but I dont miss the 3am phone calls telling me an Avatar is up and i need to log on and kill it along with 200 other people. Kids this days and there WOW talk...............

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Originally Posted by Wtflag

Isn't arkfall raids? You may need to qualify what you believe raids should be if Arkfalls don't satisfy those requirements.

Anyway Defiance is a shooter first. MMO second.

End game for a shooter is PVP.

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Sadly no Arkfalls are not raids as there is little to no skill involved in doing them, I could sit a 3 year old down and tell him/her to just press a button and the Arkfall would still be completed. Also Arkfalls can be done in a group of 4 "Raids" should not be a small "Dungeon Group" piece of content.

As for Defiance's End Game being PvP, that would require them actually having PvP that means something or have more then 2 types of PvP. Team Deathmatch and Shadow War(which I've never been able to join at all in over 20 days) isn't enough to call "End Game".

So in essence the OP's post is correct Defiance has no normal "End Game" as of yet to keep people playing more then a month or two months at best.

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Originally Posted by QuikFoX3a

Sadly no Arkfalls are not raids as their is little to no skill involved in doing them, I could sit a 3 year old down and tell him/her to just press a button and the Arkfall would still be completed. Also Arkfalls can be done in a group of 4 "Raids" should not be a small "Dungeon Group" piece of content.

As for Defiance's End Game being PvP, that would require them actually having PvP that means something or have more then 2 types of PvP. Team Deathmatch and Shadow War(which I've never been able to join at all in over 20 days) isn't enough to call "End Game".

So in essence the OP's post is correct Defiance has no normal "End Game" as of yet to keep people playing more then a month or two months at best.

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Exactly. Arkfalls are brain dead and pvp was dead on arrival due to hacks. Co-ops also present no challenge.

Game is weak.

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Originally Posted by Lumax

^^^^^^

Agree but I dont miss the 3am phone calls telling me an Avatar is up and i need to log on and kill it along with 200 other people. Kids this days and there WOW talk...............

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my wizzy epic, somehow, VS, phinny, and the fear golems were all up and dropped everything i needed, did it in 45 mins. insane.

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Originally Posted by Armitage

^This. Those of us that were actually there in 1999 remember things like "xp/Level loss on death", corpse-runs to get the gear you dropped when you died, "race/class xp penalties", bosses with full immunities...a constant stream of stuff like "SoW plz" because there were no mounts or community portals...and how to deal with classes that were _actually_ op (pre-nerf Necro...). The ONLY way you could get around quickly is to actually befriend a Wizard or Druid and beg the only in-game ports available. Wanted to clear group content? Use chat for an hour or two, find a group with an opening, spend time traveling to find them and hope the healer didn't have to log for a while.

Modern MMOs ain't shtako.

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I have been around, Played UO before any of the moden rules, players could kill you and tale all your stuff, hell they could pickpocket you to.

I spent hours doing Corpse runs in AC.

No flight paths, no fast travel, you wanted to go somewhere, you had to hoof it (Or find a mage to port you)

WoW made all those obsolete, showed that not punishing players = success.

I like (for the most part) the system that Defiance has going for it. Note I am not opposed to raids I think creating the Raid style power creep is bad for the game.

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Originally Posted by Racheakt

WoW made all those obsolete, showed that not punishing players = success.

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What it actually showed, is that waving shiny stuff in peoples faces that takes little effort makes them give you their money

Raids and structured co-ops are great things, but you are correct, it's the rewards that ultimately decide if they would be used, and the answer to the question of "will people do these events for anything less than "phat lewt" and clearly more powerful weaponry.

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Originally Posted by Rumbleskin

You cant just luanch a MMO and not have raids as endgame.

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Raids = niche content. Raids as implemented in most MMOs tend to cater to a very narrow subset of the game's population... specifically, raiding guilds. I'd like to think that over the last half-decade, companies have realized that they need to cater to more than just one fraction of their base to survive long term, and that there are far better ideas to implement for so-called 'eng-game' content, especially when dealing with a shooter and not a traditional MMO.

And also especially with such an open-ended progression system as Defiance has. There's really technically no effective 'end-game,' just a point at which what's left to do is too boring anymore for a particular player, which can be ego 300 or ego 3000.

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Originally Posted by ironhands

What it actually showed, is that waving shiny stuff in peoples faces that takes little effort makes them give you their money

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Well, I think a little of both. People play games to have fun, pure and simple. WoW and later companies realized that while some people liked the classic 'no fast travel,' lootable player corpses, losing your stuff permanently, etc. approach, a lot MORE people out there preferred a game that was less a chore and more just a fun diversion. it's not that the old guard has been slowly morphing into the new players, it's that the old guard is simply dying out as newer players take their place. The newer players don't want another job, they want a game.

[QUOTE=SteveMND;515963]Raids = niche content. Raids as implemented in most MMOs tend to cater to a very narrow subset of the game's population... specifically, raiding guilds. I'd like to think that over the last half-decade, companies have realized that they need to cater to more than just one fraction of their base to survive long term, and that there are far better ideas to implement for so-called 'eng-game' content, especially when dealing with a shooter and not a traditional MMO.

QUOTE]

This most certainly is not true. Everyone seems to forget the trickle effect from raiding, OMG that sounds like a campaign speech. It is true you have your raiders and your raider guilds all competeting for the top spot on the server/game. You also have your casual rading guilds who dont care about the "I want to kill it ALL" mentatlity, however they still raid regardless. You then have your casual questers that log on for a few breif hours a night or day and do the zones. What you fail to regard is that even the Casual Questers or ones that simply do not raid still do zones for money and or loot. They use that Loot to sell and make money. They use that money from selling to buy what you might ask........
Gear from Raids......

Atleast thats how it has been in that games I played.

Saying that Raids take up only 10% of the population simply is not true. Maybe the Hardcore raiders that raid 7 days a week 4 hours a day, however every game I played that had raids as an endgame had 90% of the gamer population participating in the raids on some level.

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Originally Posted by Rumbleskin

You cant just luanch a MMO and not have raids as endgame. Dailys are not and never will be endgame. 9 out of 10 failed MMO's would still be running and making money with subs if they had just remembered this one little rule.

No Raids no players

(casuals never have and never will make a winning MMO)

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Odd, I was on like crazy late last night. On a weekday. Plenty of players.

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Originally Posted by SteveMND

Well, I think a little of both. People play games to have fun, pure and simple. WoW and later companies realized that while some people liked the classic 'no fast travel,' lootable player corpses, losing your stuff permanently, etc. approach, a lot MORE people out there preferred a game that was less a chore and more just a fun diversion. it's not that the old guard has been slowly morphing into the new players, it's that the old guard is simply dying out as newer players take their place. The newer players don't want another job, they want a game.

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Right... wave shiny/easily achievable loot in their faces and they'll pay/play it