Taking aim assist out of PvP removes all skill from PvP!

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Originally Posted by aRtFuL

I would still doubt how much it helps though.

The problem with direct damage guns in this game is, the damage difference between a headshot and a non-headshot is just too big. Auto-aim (whether it is just for tracking or auto-aiming) is not going to help much.

Besides, that now also opens a problem of another can of worms, which is how intelligent is the aim-assist in identifying targets - if people are hiding just behind a wall, will the aim-assist be smart enough to not register that target? What about speed boosted target or stealthies? If aim-assist is intelligent enough to track those (or at least track it to the very last moment of the ability kicking in) then this would really kill 2 major EGO abilities in pvp (although on the flipside I myself is not a fan of EGO powers in pvp in the first place).

I'm just raising points that I think should be considered.

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If you read the thread that Giizis already told you about (I agree, I should have linked to it) and read the aim assist suggested he is right. There is no tracking or auto aiming. It's simply put an assistant that reduces your sensitivity when you're directly looking at a target, this way you're still doing all the aiming yourself in every way, the only difference is that once you aim at him yourself it may be a bit harder to get off the target. I'm really curious where you got wall tracking from, why would you ever be able to aim assist through walls??

I have to disagree. Main reason being as others have said aim assist can really end up screwing with your ability to land headshots. I always turn aim assist off anyway in shooters when the option is available so it might just be something I'm accoustomed to. I usually play with a TAC assault rifle and shotgun (blur... don't get the wrong idea) and the mid-long range accuracy and damage seems fine to me. And if there's auto-aim on the shotguns I haven't really noticed, because at the effective range it wouldn't matter much anyway.

I just don't see how having the game do more of the work for you would equate to it being more "skillful"; a subjective term to be sure. If anything it seems like the guns with auto aim would have to either have to have assistance reduced, or the damage balanced to take into account the ease of use. Of the weapons mentioned (not including shotguns because I don't think they auto-aim and they're only problematic with cloak and certain perks, which has been beaten to death) only the infectors I have issue with. They do seem out of whack. BMGs are usually easy pickings.

Simply put EVERYONE, except people xploiting auto aim on some weapons and area effects on others, want some form of magnetism or a sensitivity slider for ADS. Im not gonna sit here and give shotgunners crap because its not their fault Trion made the other guns obsolete.

I agree with this thread wholeheartedly. I just wonder would /could they do it?

I sure it isn't just a case of turning it on. From what I remember from wen I used to have it on in PvE it was very CoD style snapping onto targets. which allows quick scoping & is probably why they turned it off for PvP, I know thats why I did

Makes me wonder if they are even capable of such a aim assist system, or surely they would of gone with that in the first place?

Hope im wrong :)

Well where do i start. First off i don't PvP much but I've have done enough to figure out a few things.

1. The Pvp maps aside from Shadow Wars (Minus Freight yard) are way too small to even use anything other than area effect weapons or homing weapons. (Shotguns, detonators, launchers, and Infectors.)
To me that shouldn't be the case however time and time again that's what people are using because those weapons require very little to no aiming needed to killed.

Assault Rifles, Saws, Pistols, and Sniper rifles all require some type of aim to even work half decently.
Trying to hip fire anything but pistols and Assault Rifles will get you killed quickly.
The current pvp maps do not help these weapon type because they are too close quarters to be of any usefulness that's why we see 90% of the people in pvp maps with shotguns. (if they don't have a shotgun in their load out i tend to call newbie.)

2. Shadow war is a different beast all together. (So would freight yard but that has been put in then yanked for bug fixes. I'm still waiting to see what it's like here.) While the majority of TDM maps are close quarters battles. Shadow war helps those who use weapons other than the common ones found in the PvP maps. Due to the fact that you have clear line of sight for 80m without running into some object. (sometimes) Not only that but you have much more room to maneuver without rolling or running into some object.(most of the time.) However you still see the above weapons quite frequently because some people have built their pvp load out for the PvP maps and really don't want to change them for Shadow Wars. Many time I've run across Infector,detonator,or Launcher peeps only to mow them down with my blast rifle. Shotgunning peeps need to get close so they are easily handled at medium range. I have yet not been killed by a Sniper in Shadow wars.

Now that all being said certain things do need to be improved. Sniper rifles do need to have some sort of aim assist. Because right now unless your totally daft at avoiding fire or really freaking good with them they are just near useless. You have what at the most two seconds before the target your aiming at is out of view from your scope?

Pistols are in the grey category while some do high damage and have a low ROF other have medium Damage and medium ROF. Their shot groupings tend to be pretty tight but the ammo count before reload sucks. So technically it's up to the player to use them in pvp or not.

SMG's fast fire rate, crap damage, and tight shot grouping. Some no aiming needed. I'm on the fence on this one while they can dump ammo quickly you tend to need at least 1 to 1.5 mags to kill a guy from full shields to dead. TTK wise not useful.

In all it about using the weapon with a faster TTK than the other players depending on the map. Bigger maps tend to draw people not using the same old Flavor Build. Its because when you first see the enemy you start to shoot him. So in CQC you tend to see the enemy when he's at the most 5 to 10m away sometimes 20m but even that's stretching it. With Shadow wars you tend to see the enemy about 20 - 50m away which makes most medium range weapons useful. So you see more weapon variety in shadow wars over the PVP maps.

Should their be aim assist in PVP? This is quite debatable but if your looking for a skilled based pvp system then you have to leave it out. (Why Trion decided to put guided launchers and homing infectors in is anyone guess.) However even though I have said this work still needs to be done with the sniper rifles in pvp. (And no i'm the type of guy who hates the daylights out of snipetards. But you also have to balance it so they can be viable instead of dead weight. As of right now most wannabe snipers are dead weight.)

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Originally Posted by Tango80

Well where do i start. First off i don't PvP much but I've have done enough to figure out a few things.

1. The Pvp maps aside from Shadow Wars (Minus Freight yard) are way too small to even use anything other than area effect weapons or homing weapons. (Shotguns, detonators, launchers, and Infectors.)
To me that shouldn't be the case however time and time again that's what people are using because those weapons require very little to no aiming needed to killed.

Assault Rifles, Saws, Pistols, and Sniper rifles all require some type of aim to even work half decently.
Trying to hip fire anything but pistols and Assault Rifles will get you killed quickly.
The current pvp maps do not help these weapon type because they are too close quarters to be of any usefulness that's why we see 90% of the people in pvp maps with shotguns. (if they don't have a shotgun in their load out i tend to call newbie.)

2. Shadow war is a different beast all together. (So would freight yard but that has been put in then yanked for bug fixes. I'm still waiting to see what it's like here.) While the majority of TDM maps are close quarters battles. Shadow war helps those who use weapons other than the common ones found in the PvP maps. Due to the fact that you have clear line of sight for 80m without running into some object. (sometimes) Not only that but you have much more room to maneuver without rolling or running into some object.(most of the time.) However you still see the above weapons quite frequently because some people have built their pvp load out for the PvP maps and really don't want to change them for Shadow Wars. Many time I've run across Infector,detonator,or Launcher peeps only to mow them down with my blast rifle. Shotgunning peeps need to get close so they are easily handled at medium range. I have yet not been killed by a Sniper in Shadow wars.

Now that all being said certain things do need to be improved. Sniper rifles do need to have some sort of aim assist. Because right now unless your totally daft at avoiding fire or really freaking good with them they are just near useless. You have what at the most two seconds before the target your aiming at is out of view from your scope?

Pistols are in the grey category while some do high damage and have a low ROF other have medium Damage and medium ROF. Their shot groupings tend to be pretty tight but the ammo count before reload sucks. So technically it's up to the player to use them in pvp or not.

SMG's fast fire rate, crap damage, and tight shot grouping. Some no aiming needed. I'm on the fence on this one while they can dump ammo quickly you tend to need at least 1 to 1.5 mags to kill a guy from full shields to dead. TTK wise not useful.

In all it about using the weapon with a faster TTK than the other players depending on the map. Bigger maps tend to draw people not using the same old Flavor Build. Its because when you first see the enemy you start to shoot him. So in CQC you tend to see the enemy when he's at the most 5 to 10m away sometimes 20m but even that's stretching it. With Shadow wars you tend to see the enemy about 20 - 50m away which makes most medium range weapons useful. So you see more weapon variety in shadow wars over the PVP maps.

Should their be aim assist in PVP? This is quite debatable but if your looking for a skilled based pvp system then you have to leave it out. (Why Trion decided to put guided launchers and homing infectors in is anyone guess.) However even though I have said this work still needs to be done with the sniper rifles in pvp. (And no i'm the type of guy who hates the daylights out of snipetards. But you also have to balance it so they can be viable instead of dead weight. As of right now most wannabe snipers are dead weight.)

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I wouldn't say that the smaller PvP maps in general are too small to use assault rifles, to me that's not a good observation, but then again I might be biased because I am one of the very few to use assault rifles on Observatory/Waterfront. I use assault rifles on Observatory all the time. The reason I say the maps aren't small enough for this to be true is because the map isn't just the building. Mostly everyone goes into the building but I personally stay on the roof throughout the entire match with an AR and Shotgun(For those in the building who come to the roof). I use my AR to kill everyone on the map, and have an amazing view with a good accuracy and height advantage. On waterfront it's a similar scenario with the rooftop in the middle of the map.

Ok I did say this is competitive only conversation, but... I will still reply to your reasoning towards shadow war.
I don't agree with the fact you see a significant differentiation with weapons in Shadow War. I am still being killed by the same weapons. I will agree that there is a smaller portion of these homing/aoe weapons, there still isn't even close to a majority in ARs, SMGs, LMGs, Pistols and Snipers. There are very few still. It is not enough to be a significant change. This is what I see, if long range weapons would be alot more beneficial in shadow war due to a much vaster terrain and larger maps, why are CQC/Homing/AoE weapons still being abused in shadow war? To me this proves that it isn't just the size of the map that affects which weapons would be primarily used, it seems evident that the weapons themselves are obsolete, otherwise they would completely prosper in shadow war.

Let's also keep in mind I don't want snap aim assist but yes, you put up some good arguments while I have to say I disagree with most of what you say I will respect your points.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteDeicide

I have to disagree. Main reason being as others have said aim assist can really end up screwing with your ability to land headshots. I always turn aim assist off anyway in shooters when the option is available so it might just be something I'm accoustomed to. I usually play with a TAC assault rifle and shotgun (blur... don't get the wrong idea) and the mid-long range accuracy and damage seems fine to me. And if there's auto-aim on the shotguns I haven't really noticed, because at the effective range it wouldn't matter much anyway.

I just don't see how having the game do more of the work for you would equate to it being more "skillful"; a subjective term to be sure. If anything it seems like the guns with auto aim would have to either have to have assistance reduced, or the damage balanced to take into account the ease of use. Of the weapons mentioned (not including shotguns because I don't think they auto-aim and they're only problematic with cloak and certain perks, which has been beaten to death) only the infectors I have issue with. They do seem out of whack. BMGs are usually easy pickings.

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It would have taken less time to read the actual thread and not the title than it does to write an irrelivent two paragraph post.

In the thread I didn't really argue for aim assist, that seems to be the point you're all bringing up though anyways. But anyways, there has been replies already in the thread saying to avoid any type of snap assistant, and in my other threads in the signature. I don't blame you for not seeing the outsource links, but I will still clarify that for you. If you don't want aim assist and already turn it off in games, I don't get why you're even arguing against aim assist.

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Originally Posted by AbsoluteDeicide

I just don't see how having the game do more of the work for you would equate to it being more "skillful"; a subjective term to be sure.

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See... Now you gentlemen know who i'm talking about....

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Originally Posted by Slay

First of all I expect 99% of the replies to be either people who don't read the thread, go off the title, don't understand the thread, don't play PvP or can't put up any good educated argument.

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Originally Posted by Slay

I don't suck at PvP. I've made PvP threads before and a good chunk of replies assumes i'm bad and that's the motive for writing the thread. I write a thread like this for the self evident truths that the developers will never figure out on their own to fix.

First of all I expect 99% of the replies to be either people who don't read the thread, go off the title, don't understand the thread, don't play PvP or can't put up any good educated argument. I take no mercy in replying to you when you make a dumb statement.

This is competitive discussion, not shadow war discussion. I play on the Xbox 360. Anyone claiming this game has skill in the PvP in conoles is so wrong. The biggest problem i've ever seen with PvP is in the fact there isn't any aim assist. Specifically PvP has guns that have strong aim assist making other guns completely obsolete in PvP. I'm very rarely killed by another AR, LMG, SMG, Pistol or Sniper user. I'm only killed by Detonators, Rocket Launchers/Guided Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sawed off shotguns, Infectors and Biomechanical Guns typically. The reason is aim assist.

The fact the developers take away aim assist in PvP is good! But then more than half the weapons in PvP have some type of homing/area of effect damage.... ARs, SMGs, LMGs, Pistols, and Snipers are completely obsolete when it comes to Detonators, Rocket Launchers and Guided Rocket Launchers, Shotguns, Sawed off Shotguns, Infectors and Biomechanical Guns. The developers have absolutely undermined every user who uses a rifle/pistol by adding homing and area of effect weapons. By removing aim assist but keeping it with certain weapons, where is the balance? Rifles have no place in PvP because of this. They should have just kept aim assist in the game if it were up to me, but i've made another thread to understand not many other people want aim assist in PvP so i'll just give up that argument.

I have a ton more information I go by, so if you want come at me. I can defend myself, and anyone who feels the need to defend me because they might agree please don't, i'll be fine. I've made tons of other PvP threads and play PvP avidly with friends enough.

/Discuss. Come at me, i'll give my opinions back, infact I will reply to ALL comments made on this thread no matter what, positive or negative. So expect a reply. :cool:

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basically what i get form your threads is you want sniping to be easier and ARs, LMGS, and SMGs, to be mroe usefull. while i agree with the fact thos eguns arne't the best for PvP they are still effective and i don't agree with the ways you want them to be adjusted. I do think that the infectors need to be nerfed though.

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Originally Posted by Upinya Slayin

basically what i get form your threads is you want sniping to be easier and ARs, LMGS, and SMGs, to be mroe usefull. while i agree with the fact thos eguns arne't the best for PvP they are still effective and i don't agree with the ways you want them to be adjusted. I do think that the infectors need to be nerfed though.

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Snipers are not effective in the slightest, pistols are barely effective. ARs, LMGs, SMGs are OK but could be better with aim assist. I'm not saying these weapons are horrible, but they are obsolete and need some sort of compensation for the lack of aim assist. I would like them to be easier, but the main point is for weapon variety and balance. These guns are undermined without aim assist and the reason they added homing/aoe weapons in a non aim assist game is beyond reasoning to me.

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Originally Posted by Slay

Snipers are not effective in the slightest, pistols are barely effective. ARs, LMGs, SMGs are OK but could be better with aim assist. I'm not saying these weapons are horrible, but they are obsolete and need some sort of compensation for the lack of aim assist. I would like them to be easier, but the main point is for weapon variety and balance. These guns are undermined without aim assist and the reason they added homing/aoe weapons in a non aim assist game is beyond reasoning to me.

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they did it for PvE game modes. devs when they add PvP as an afetrthought, which lets face it the TDM is kinda an afterthought they usually aren't aware of their own balance issues. Infectors and BMGs should be removed from PvP and then instanlty it becomes more balancd.