If TRION introduces difficult co-op maps that require a tank and healer...

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Originally Posted by ironhands

the fact that the roles are set in the trinity shows that there really isn't any deep tactics. One person heals the main guy, dps beats it down, while the main guy draws the aggression from the other two and takes the bulk of the hits. That's pretty much only one tactic :P

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More tactical than I'll play how I want zerg zerg zerg however. You said there were easy ways to make the fights more complex without needing roles. What would be some. Note I mean more complex not harder as in numbers harder or in twitch time harder. It'd be easy to turn the speed up to 11 and have never miss one shot head shots and that would make the encounters more difficult certainly or harder but they'd still be simple. How would you attach a level of complexity that could cause failure without needing at least specific tasks from certain toons.

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Originally Posted by grooboggle

Its arguable if what you are describing can be considered tactics. Anything on-the-fly I'd argue isn't tactical as its a heat of the moment response...or largely non tactical at any rate. The same as relying on reaction time and quickness thats just twitch not tactics.

Tactics are going to be a recipe inasmuch as a recipe is a plan. It doesn't have to be tank healer dps but reacting with no plan isn't tactical.

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A plan isn't a recipe. Shooter-type games might have plan you decide to follow but it's reliant on the actual moment-to-moment of the target and your group. How you act is entirely reliant on the others with you, their state, and what you're using. It's not as straightforward/mechanical as "when he lifts his arms healer put a shield on the tank and dps move behind pillar."

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Originally Posted by grooboggle

More tactical than I'll play how I want zerg zerg zerg however. You said there were easy ways to make the fights more complex without needing roles. What would be some. Note I mean more complex not harder as in numbers harder or in twitch time harder. It'd be easy to turn the speed up to 11 and have never miss one shot head shots and that would make the encounters more difficult certainly or harder but they'd still be simple. How would you attach a level of complexity that could cause failure without needing at least specific tasks from certain toons.

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Dump 10 extra raiders and add a sniper that can oneshot anyone out of cover... unless they're shot first.

Also quadruple self-resurrect timer.

Grossly oversimplified example, but it would be a more interesting encounter than what we currently see in the game.

One of the things I like is that we don't have to have the holy trinity, its nice not having to spent time looking for a tank or healer. Personally I like the fact that you can play this game casually and still succeed, there's plenty of games out there that choose to be silly difficult, I'm happy with defiance as it is.

Well putting specific roles for coop seems silly, because at that rate they would've made the game class based instead of picking what you like. I mean it really is up to the players in the group. Personally I build my character to be able to survive encounters so long as I am not being shot my 10 different mobs at once. If people choose to play a role that support other players then good for them. I'd personally like it when I see some people using BMG to heal me when I take damage, so I don't by a 2nd or 3rd hit. Though sometimes I feel like instead of the person healing me they could use a DPS weapon and help dealing damage.

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Originally Posted by grooboggle

How would you attach a level of complexity that could cause failure without needing at least specific tasks from certain toons.

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Requiring specific tasks from people (tactics) is different than requiring the Holy Trinity. The Holy Trinity is a watered down way of getting people to perform roles. And it's just one basic tactic. Try and imagine an encounter with no tanks, or no heals, or no dps. It's very possible and it's a concept for dungeons some games have considered but the encounter design requires far more depth than most Holy Trinity games can allot to something most people would ignore over the simplicity of Tank, Healer, DPS.

As for Defiance, you don't need designated roles. You need proper skill use. Have a boss who does a cone attack that will drop everyone in it. Or an AoE attack that pulses many times that shields alone can't cover. Or a gauntlet where Blur or Cloak can turn it off. Or a boss where a large melee hit opens up a weak point across the room. There's lots of ways to do things that require teamwork and tactics without devolving down to the Trinity.

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Originally Posted by Schwa

Dump 10 extra raiders and add a sniper that can oneshot anyone out of cover... unless they're shot first.

Also quadruple self-resurrect timer.

Grossly oversimplified example, but it would be a more interesting encounter than what we currently see in the game.

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I just see those as moving the numbers around a bit not making anything more complex. I'd like complexity not simply a higher degree of numbers difficulty. Though that would be fine as well. I like roles in games but I never expected this game to be or have that. I think it was very oversold as an MMO which its not in the traditional sense. Its much closer to a pure shooter that has a primarily PVE focus. There is no necessary cooperative play.

I think you could make more complex encounters by placing timers in which secondary objectives need to be achieved in order to get any or better rewards.

Lets say they tuned up the instances so that only five percent of the groups completed them and only if they were running in vent or some such. That would likely be too much for most. However now that they're pretty much impossible to fail its too much the other way. Finding that sweet spot...20 percent? 50 percent? there has to be some sort of real risk of failure to make success its own reward.

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Originally Posted by Conneri

Requiring specific tasks from people (tactics) is different than requiring the Holy Trinity. The Holy Trinity is a watered down way of getting people to perform roles. And it's just one basic tactic. Try and imagine an encounter with no tanks, or no heals, or no dps. It's very possible and it's a concept for dungeons in some games that has been considered but the encounter design requires far more depth than most Holy Trinity games can allot to something most people would ignore over the simplicity of Tank, Healer, DPS.

As for Defiance, you don't need designated roles. You need proper skill use. Have a boss who does a cone attack that will drop everyone in it. Or an AoE attack that pulses many times that shields alone can't cover. Or a gauntlet where Blur or Cloak can turn it off. Or a boss where a large melee hit opens up a weak point across the room. There's lots of ways to do things that require teamwork and tactics without devolving down to the Trinity.

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Largely your post is a stawman if you think I am articulating the position you are writing in the first paragraph.

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Originally Posted by grooboggle

Largely your post is a stawman if you think I am articulating the position you are writing in the first paragraph.

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You asked for examples and I provided some.

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Originally Posted by nosworc

I think that is the main reason the holy trinity was brought up, exactly for that reason. As it stands now there is no need for tactics or communication in the slightest. Pew pew till dead, repeat.

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What do you call a tank, healer, and three DPS?

A group.

What do you call five DPS?

A zerg.

Fundamentally that's what it boils down to. The trinity system enforces interdependency and makes something other than simple DPS matter. Lacking that, lacking a system of enforced roles and player interdependency (it doesn't have to be the trinity per se, it's just that so far no one has come up with a system that fills that niche and works nearly -- or, really, at all -- as well), you get what we have here; exceedingly simple minded zergs that lack any cohesion and aren't even really 'groups' in any meaningful sense.

For better or ill, it's not going to change. Defiance doesn't have even the most basic elements necessary for grouping to matter. Even if the playerbase were amenable to anything more complicated than pew pew pew, and they clearly aren't, you'd have to very nearly rebuild the game from the ground up.