so i cant reach the level cap without pvp?

Is this still true or has it changed? Please tell me it's changed because it's one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen in a game.

A significant component of the success of the really successful online games is giving players multiple paths of progression towards the same goal. That way if players don't enjoy a particular activity (eg. pvp) they can ignore it without penalty. That's smart game design.

Now I don't care that the difference between ego 3000 and 5000 might not be huge. If I played Defiance I'd naturally want to get to 5000. But if to reach ego 5000 I need to engage in activities I really don't enjoy... why play the game at all?

I think Defiance's PVE (out in the world) is great. Probably the best of any current MMO. But I thoroughly detest the artificial max-your-modifier style content (eg. most of DLC 1). I find it banal and won't play it.

Accordingly I was unimpressed with the first DLC and stopped playing soon after it released. Yesterday I read details about the next DLC and was excited to give Defiance another go. But if my max ego is going to be limited without my completing content that I loathe then.... I'm gonna have to leave Defiance on the backburner and keep praying for changes.

Seriously, whoever is responsible for this game design decision needs their head examined.

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Originally Posted by Carnak

Is this still true or has it changed? Please tell me it's changed because it's one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen in a game.

[snip]

Seriously, whoever is responsible for this game design decision needs their head examined.

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Not changed.

edit: wow, I can't read.

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Originally Posted by Carnak

Is this still true or has it changed? Please tell me it's changed because it's one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen in a game.

A significant component of the success of the really successful online games is giving players multiple paths of progression towards the same goal. That way if players don't enjoy a particular activity (eg. pvp) they can ignore it without penalty. That's smart game design.

Now I don't care that the difference between ego 3000 and 5000 might not be huge. If I played Defiance I'd naturally want to get to 5000. But if to reach ego 5000 I need to engage in activities I really don't enjoy... why play the game at all?

I think Defiance's PVE (out in the world) is great. Probably the best of any current MMO. But I thoroughly detest the artificial max-your-modifier style content (eg. most of DLC 1). I find it banal and won't play it.

Accordingly I was unimpressed with the first DLC and stopped playing soon after it released. Yesterday I read details about the next DLC and was excited to give Defiance another go. But if my max ego is going to be limited without my completing content that I loathe then.... I'm gonna have to leave Defiance on the backburner and keep praying for changes.

Seriously, whoever is responsible for this game design decision needs their head examined.

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What you have to remember is that EGO is not quite the same as "Levels" in a typical RPG. The two are not synonymous. Whereas I would agree with you if this was the typical power creep type of leveling that "Levels" in other games have, that is not the case here.

EGO is essentially a marker of how much you have done in this game in terms of pursuits, perk and power unlocks, and weapon leveling. EGO 5000 simply indicates that a player has completed each of those things to its fullest. Therefore participating and completing all those things should be a requirement to reach the max EGO number, including PvP.

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Originally Posted by crasher

Not changed.

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Thanks for the speedy reply. Much appreciated. Seems I'll be sticking with my current game at least for a bit longer.

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Originally Posted by BJWyler

What you have to remember is that EGO is not quite the same as "Levels" in a typical RPG. The two are not synonymous. Whereas I would agree with you if this was the typical power creep type of leveling that "Levels" in other games have, that is not the case here.

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Can you not read?

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Originally Posted by Carnak

Now I don't care that the difference between ego 3000 and 5000 might not be huge. If I played Defiance I'd naturally want to get to 5000.

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I'm completely cognizant of the facts you intended to remind me of. In fact I made a point of saying I'm cognizant of them.

The thing is they're just not relevant.

Game design psychology 101... Players like to see numbers go up. Players like to max out numbers. That the whole point of having them. Surely you realise that?

And in the case of Defiance, even if the differences are small, weapons have an ego rating attached and there is the associated grind to improve them with mod slots and mods. I probably wouldn't bother doing that for many weapons pre 5000.

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Originally Posted by Carnak

Now I don't care that the difference between ego 3000 and 5000 might not be huge. If I played Defiance I'd naturally want to get to 5000. But if to reach ego 5000 I need to engage in activities I really don't enjoy... why play the game at all?

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First, while currently you have to engage in certain pursuits that require participation in PvP, if you were a player from the moment Episode pursuits became available and you purchased DLC 1, you wouldn't have to engage in many PvP oriented pursuits. In point of fact you would have to do just 1 five point Competitive Multiplayer Pursuit, the Echelon faction reputation pursuits and attain trusted status with Echelon to complete the final EGO Evolution pursuit.

Second since each DLC will bring additional PvE pursuits (DLC 1 added 55 points), if Trion doesn't raise the EGO rating cap and it does rewind events to allow players who missed out on Episode pursuits to achieve them, it's highly probable that all players will be able to cap EGO rating without doing any PvP content after DLC 3 is released. Even if Trion never does a rewind week it's still highly probable that all players will be able to cap EGO rating without doing any PvP content by the time the fourth DLC is released.

Third, you claim to get it but your responses indicate otherwise. EGO rating =/= level. Defiance has a bifurcated leveling system that bears little relation to its EGO rating system. One leveling system is the EGO perks and ability system. The other is the weapons and vehicles leveling system. These contribute to EGO rating as you level them, but EGO rating itself is not a leveling system. EGO rating is an achievement tracking statistic like the Xbox and Steam Achievement systems. In other words it's bragging rights which is why any attempt to compare the requirement to do PvP in Defiance to cap EGO rating to requiring players to do PvP to level cap in another game is flawed and inaccurate.

You claim to know that the difference between EGO rating 3000 and 5000 isn't huge when in point of fact the difference between EGO rating 4812 (achievable without any PvP content or DLC) and 5000 is non-existent from a leveling point of view.

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Originally Posted by Carnak

Can you not read?

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Yes I can.

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Originally Posted by Carnak

I'm completely cognizant of the facts you intended to remind me of. In fact I made a point of saying I'm cognizant of them.

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No you didn't. All you stated was that you were cognizant of the fact that there is little difference between two random high EGO numbers, and worded the post to make it sound like you are equating the EGO number with Experience Levels of RPGs, which often also have diminishing returns upon higher levels.

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Originally Posted by Carnak

Game design psychology 101... Players like to see numbers go up. Players like to max out numbers. That the whole point of having them. Surely you realise that?

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Of course. And in order to make that number go up, you do what is required to make that number go up. In order to max out that number you do what is required to max out that number. That is Game Mechanics 101, as Deunan also explains quite well.

I must be rare, as i'm more interested in my trip to end game than the actual end game itself...

Actually i just enjoy playing i don't really give a toss about end game or ego levels..

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Originally Posted by Deunan

First, while currently you have to engage in certain pursuits that require participation in PvP, if you were a player from the moment Episode pursuits became available and you purchased DLC 1, you wouldn't have to engage in many PvP oriented pursuits. In point of fact you would have to do just 1 five point Competitive Multiplayer Pursuit, the Echelon faction reputation pursuits and attain trusted status with Echelon to complete the final EGO Evolution pursuit.

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Been following the game since it was first announced. Prepurchased it and the season pass, but found the race choices at launch boring so waited until DLC1 was released to start playing seriously.

And to repeat what I said earlier, I absolutely detest the max-your-multiplier (eg. DLC1 arenas) content. There seems to be a lot of that in the pursuit system. I tried to force myself through the DLC1 arenas but after a few days just wanted to chew my foot off. I'm not doing any more of that... so that would seriously limit my max ego rating.

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Originally Posted by Deunan

Second since each DLC will bring additional PvE pursuits (DLC 1 added 55 points), if Trion doesn't raise the EGO rating cap and it does rewind events to allow players who missed out on Episode pursuits to achieve them, it's highly probable that all players will be able to cap EGO rating without doing any PvP content after DLC 3 is released. Even if Trion never does a rewind week it's still highly probable that all players will be able to cap EGO rating without doing any PvP content by the time the fourth DLC is released.

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Conjecture and possibly you'll turn out to be right. But I don't choose to play a game or not based on what it might turn out to be. As would most players.

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Originally Posted by Deunan

Third, you claim to get it but your responses indicate otherwise. EGO rating =/= level. Defiance has a bifurcated leveling system that bears little relation to its EGO rating system. One leveling system is the EGO perks and ability system. The other is the weapons and vehicles leveling system. These contribute to EGO rating as you level them, but EGO rating itself is not a leveling system. EGO rating is an achievement tracking statistic like the Xbox and Steam Achievement systems. In other words it's bragging rights which is why any attempt to compare the requirement to do PvP in Defiance to cap EGO rating to requiring players to do PvP to level cap in another game is flawed and inaccurate.

You claim to know that the difference between EGO rating 3000 and 5000 isn't huge when in point of fact the difference between EGO rating 4812 (achievable without any PvP content or DLC) and 5000 is non-existent from a leveling point of view.

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That's completely daft.

If you implement a numerical rating system in a game with a maximum, it doesn't matter that it's relatively flat (i.e. not like levels in most online games), players will naturally want to reach that maximum.

If you implement a numerical rating system in a game and require players to engage in every type of activity you implement in the game to reach it, you are essentially forcing players to do things they might not enjoy. That's thoroughly idiotic game design. Every single activity becomes a potential reason for players to not buy / play the game.

Not everyone enjoys everything that gets put into a game. Normally that's ok because normally games don't force players to do everything. And then there's Defiance.

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Originally Posted by BJWyler

No you didn't. All you stated was that you were cognizant of the fact that there is little difference between two random high EGO numbers, and worded the post to make it sound like you are equating the EGO number with Experience Levels of RPGs, which often also have diminishing returns upon higher levels.

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Liar liar pants on fire.

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Originally Posted by BJWyler

Of course. And in order to make that number go up, you do what is required to make that number go up. In order to max out that number you do what is required to max out that number. That is Game Mechanics 101, as Deunan also explains quite well.

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Utterly ridiculous.

You do realise this is game, right? People pay to play in their leisure time to enjoy themselves. Short of the kind of evil psychological trickery employed by certain other online games I won't name, if a game isn't enjoyable, players won't jump through all your hoops just to make numbers go up. They just won't buy / play the game.

It's no wonder Defiance bombed. If I'd known about this I wouldn't have bought it or the season pass.

I feel slightly bad that I missed this and didn't make a fuss back when it was still in alpha but I seriously could never have imagined any game developer doing this.

It is the way it is, arguing about it does nothing, people just have to deal with it.
You ultimately have 2 options, put up with it and play the game as it is, or don't and move on.