What an MMO means to me.

When I think MMO, I think of:
-Character progression
-Loot
-Engaging storyline
-End game content that keeps me interested

My experience with this game has gone as such:
-Started a brand new character. Was immediately confused. Didn't really understand what was going on. Did I just play a tutorial level? What am I supposed to be doing...?
-Figured the basic mechanics out after a few hours. Did a few missions. LOVED what I was seeing.
-Hit EGO 200. Started finding better gear. Got a car. Got new "armor".
-Hit EGO 400. Realized there's not much more to the game.

The game is basically driving around, fighting enemies if you want, and participating in massive ArkFall events.

The Arkfalls are so watered down an easy, that you can just sit there AFK and earn the rewards. There's no challenge. There's no teamwork involved. Everyone is basically using the same weapons. The "Perks" aren't really perks, but more of placeholders. Do I want 15 extra seconds of Blur? Um, I guess. Do I want 3% better chance of loot dropping with Melee kills? Sure.

There's no skill system. There's no customization. There's nothing that differentiates me from someone who has 300 hours in the game. I can start a new character, pick up the first SMG I see, and basically do the same damage as someone who is EGO 5000. They will have some advantages, but they're not necessary.

The enemy AI is terrible. I can hide behind a rock while they all wait for me to poke out. I can lob grenades and rockets at them from 200ft away while they blindly race at me, only to be mowed down by the SMG I picked up 20 hours ago and have no attachments on.

Speaking of weapons, there is absolutely no diversity with the weapons and what they do.
There are shotguns, pistols, SMGs, Assault Rifles, LMGs, BMGs, Infectors, Detonators...

SMGs, Assault Rifles and LMGs all use the same ammo? Really? So if I have 3 loadouts, my LMG and Assault Rifle are useless if my SMG runs out of ammo? That sucks. Detonators, grenade launchers and Shotguns that shoot greandes...they all might as well be the same. There's NO diversity. They're the same weapon, only skinned slightly different.

Oh, and if you want to gamble your currency for loot, you can use the lockboxes. After purchasing roughly 50 level 3 lockboxes, 10 level 2s and 2 Level 4s, not a single weapon I got was an upgrade. If I got a purple weapon, which was about 1/5 chance, if lucky, it had the exact same stats as whatever I was using, only it had an extra mod slot, or an insignificant boost to reload or mag or crit damage. Nothing that made me want to use it...

Ugh. Is this the whole game?

That is their "Ingenious" system to allow all players to be able to play together no matter what....

Makes perfect sense doesn't it? (Sarcasm)

What you should think of when you think MMO:
Lots of players in something other than a hub or instance

"The game is basically driving around, fighting enemies if you want, and participating in massive ArkFall events."

It sounds to me that the problem here is that you don't want to do this. The game is a shooter first and foremost. You aren't going to get much variety in gameplay and the progression is going to be relatively flat to allow for PvP. If you like shooter gameplay then that's enough to keep you busy.

Your only really justified complaints are the dumb AI and arkfall rewards being too easy to come by.

Basically, you don't like the game. Move on to something more micromanagy. EVE is that way--->

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Originally Posted by Roscoe Wallace

The game is basically driving around, fighting enemies if you want, and participating in massive ArkFall events.

I can start a new character, pick up the first SMG I see, and basically do the same damage as someone who is EGO 5000. They will have some advantages, but they're not necessary.

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hehe, hi, i agree to some things but you're pretty uninformed for other things. i just comment on these two sentiments though.

first, there's more to defiance than you mention. there are different missions around the open world you can participate in. there are also instanced coop missions. and there's small scale pvp and large scale open world pvp.

second, yea, isn't it beautiful? even starting characters can compete against maxed out characters. this is crucial if you want your game to be skill based and not number based like your usual mmorpg.

also, there is no endgame, there are no level zones. you can go whatever and whenever you please. you have complete freedom. no one telling you what to do. except, the coop missions are ego restricted. i think this is another positive aspect of defiance. defiance is pretty much a casual mmo. just jump in, do stuff that's fun for you, leave and come back for more. there's no grind, the max ego is mostly prestige/aesthetic, there is no max anything you HAVE to reach. i like that. but it may turn people off as well, if they expect world of warcraft with guns.

at some point convincing others is easier than convincing yourself.
because we now know.

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Originally Posted by zzzornbringer

second, yea, isn't it beautiful? even starting characters can compete against maxed out characters. this is crucial if you want your game to be skill based and not number based like your usual mmorpg.

also, there is no endgame, there are no level zones. you can go whatever and whenever you please. you have complete freedom. no one telling you what to do. except, the coop missions are ego restricted. i think this is another positive aspect of defiance. defiance is pretty much a casual mmo. just jump in, do stuff that's fun for you, leave and come back for more. there's no grind, the max ego is mostly prestige/aesthetic, there is no max anything you HAVE to reach. i like that. but it may turn people off as well, if they expect world of warcraft with guns.

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This is what bothers me though. It's NOT skill based. Like I said, I can participate in an ArkFall event and either stand still and do nothing, or I can strafe around and kill 100 enemies. It makes no difference. I get the same reward, regardless. I've come in 1st on a lot of Arkfalls, and I don't get rewarded for doing more than the guy who came in last. In fact, the guy that came in last might be an EGO 5000 character who had to answer the door while the arkfall started. Either way, he gets the same reward I get (random), for doing nothing.

One thing I absolutely love in an MMO is that there is a progression to the game. When I'm level 1 in an MMO, I shouldn't be able to run to a level 20 zone and kill the bad guys just as fast as the level 20 guy. I should get mowed down in seconds. A level 20 guy should be able to travel to the level 1 zone and obliterate the bad guys.

In this game, there are no zones. There is no progression. There is no sense of "leveling up" or making your character stronger. Leveling up means nothing. The EGO points you spend are trivial. Most of them are minor buffs to an ability you won't even need.

I can go through each mission and hipfire my SMG, or use my Infector to kill the bad guys, never once needing to use the ability I chose: Blur. I sometimes use it to get out of a tight situation, but that's it. During my first 400 EGO levels, I've died less than 10 times. Nearly all were during Arkfall events where I was unaware of the abilities of the boss as I first started playing, and the other 1 or 2 times came when I completed a mission objective and 20 enemies spawned in all directions around me.

It's not about skill. It's not about level progression or character customization or the feeling of being part of a group. It's about grinding out points and skills that are meaningless. After a few hundred EGO points, you've seen all you need to see.

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Originally Posted by Era

What you should think of when you think MMO:
Lots of players in something other than a hub or instance

"The game is basically driving around, fighting enemies if you want, and participating in massive ArkFall events."

It sounds to me that the problem here is that you don't want to do this. The game is a shooter first and foremost. You aren't going to get much variety in gameplay and the progression is going to be relatively flat to allow for PvP. If you like shooter gameplay then that's enough to keep you busy.

Your only really justified complaints are the dumb AI and arkfall rewards being too easy to come by.

Basically, you don't like the game. Move on to something more micromanagy. EVE is that way--->

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I haven't tried the PvP yet, but from what I've seen and heard, it's more frustration than it's worth. If I want to play a player vs player shooter game, there are other alternatives. I bought this game because it was marketed as an MMO. It's NOT an MMO. It's a 3rd person shooter dressed up in a boring costume, pretending to be an MMO.

There's nothing MMO about this game, other than the fact that you'll run into people every now and then.

There are "events" happening all over the map at any given time. However, as soon as an ArkFall event starts, EVERYONE flocks to it. I've been in the middle of a mission where I had to clear out an area inhabited by about 30 enemies, and I was doing so with 2 other guys whom I presumed were on the same mission. About 5 minutes in, an Arkfall event happened about 1km away. Both guys packed up and left. Fortunately, I was able to kill the 30+ bad guys with minimal effort, as they blindly ran towards me, allowing me to land hundreds of critical shots in their faces.

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Originally Posted by Beta582

That is their "Ingenious" system to allow all players to be able to play together no matter what....

Makes perfect sense doesn't it? (Sarcasm)

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If I would have known this, I wouldn't have purchased the game.

Fortunately, the guy at GameStop said I could bring it back within 30 days for a full refund. Dunno why, but I've got his signature stating it on the receipt. I'll be returning it tomorrow.

I'm not a fan of grinding. I don't like mindless clicking and the feeling of "working" when I'm playing a video game. However, this game is so dumbed down that I feel like I could play it blindfolded. It's possibly the easiest shooter game I've ever played, and I've played many.

I rarely agree,I agree almost entirely.
'After a few hundred EGO points,you've seen all you need to see"

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Originally Posted by Roscoe Wallace

Like I said, I can participate in an ArkFall event and either stand still and do nothing, or I can strafe around and kill 100 enemies.

One thing I absolutely love in an MMO is that there is a progression to the game. When I'm level 1 in an MMO, I shouldn't be able to run to a level 20 zone and kill the bad guys just as fast as the level 20 guy. I should get mowed down in seconds. A level 20 guy should be able to travel to the level 1 zone and obliterate the bad guys.

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1) that's true but if you just stand around, you don't see your name in the score list at the end. :) not a lot of fun either to just stand around. luckily, most people do stuff within ark falls. but, again, if you're used to shooters, there isn't a huge challenge in ark falls. it's just large scale chaos, explosions etc...

2) then defiance is not the game for you. there are no numbers that improve your character. the only visible progression is based on outfits you can unlock with various activities. although, the difficulty increases slightly within the game world. mutants are very basic enemies, raiders do have explosive weapons and enemies with shields that you have to break with melee or explosives, 99ers have actual energy shields that you have to break, they also have snipers. so, there is a minor curve in difficulty but it's not like you mentioned other mmorpg's do it, where a level 1 character gets one hitted by level 20 enemies. i like this, you obviously don't. in this case i recommened you try the game firefall. although the world doesn't offer any progression whatsoever, you can make your gear more powerful though.

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Originally Posted by Roscoe Wallace

There's nothing MMO about this game, other than the fact that you'll run into people every now and then.

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That's pretty much all MMO means.

Seriously, EVE. Try it, I'm sure you'll like it. Defiance clearly isn't for you. In fact, avoid shooters from now on. Shtako, avoid any action MMO.

Sadly, none of the stuff that "means" something to OP is what a MMO actually is. MMO is actually a very broad and generalized term that lots of games can fall under. All that stuff about engaging story and vertical progression are extra features you only hope are part of the game. Based on my time in several game betas, from what various Devs have expressed, the only things a game needs to qualify as a MMO, is multiplayer functionality and some sort of persistantance of the game world.

It really is just a BS label that a lot of players have misconceptions about. They see MMO, they think WoW, EQ, Rift, dive in headfirst, and feel cheated when their assumptions don't pan out.

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Originally Posted by Ryme

Sadly, none of the stuff that "means" something to OP is what a MMO actually is. MMO is actually a very broad and generalized term that lots of games can fall under. All that stuff about engaging story and vertical progression are extra features you only hope are part of the game. Based on my time in several game betas, from what various Devs have expressed, the only things a game needs to qualify as a MMO, is multiplayer functionality and some sort of persistantance of the game world.

It really is just a BS label that a lot of players have misconceptions about. They see MMO, they think WoW, EQ, Rift, dive in headfirst, and feel cheated when their assumptions don't pan out.

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You think before there were MMOs there were people that went into multiplayer games and were pissed because it didn't have either coop or competitive because for some reason they thought all multiplayer games had to have one or the other?

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Originally Posted by Era

You think before there were MMOs there were people that went into multiplayer games and were pissed because it didn't have either coop or competitive because for some reason they thought all multiplayer games had to have one or the other?

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Before? You mean back when they were called MUDs?

Everyone complains about AI. But they don't realize how hard AI is to make. Defiance's AI is atleast 7/10.

As for weapon diversity ... there are different shotguns, saw-off, pistols, SMGs, Assault Rifles, LMGs, BMGs, Infectors, Detonators, missile launchers and sub-types within each. I don't know know how many you expect a game to have, but if you count every sub-type, there are more gun types than most FPS shooters. You have not even consider modding scopes, burst mods or nano mods.

As for perks, sure, they don't directly appear directly useful like most MMORPG would do it. But this is a shooter, and in a shooter we promote skill, not stats. The more skilled player can make better use of the same conditional perk than a novice can. That is how the game is designed, and i wouldn't want it any other way.

If you are not convinced, let me know your ego level, your perferred primary and secondary weapon. I will show you the best build to take advantage of your chosen weapon.

MMO to me means... hmm.. most important to me is multiplayer... yes I see other players I do one my short lists of emotes at them and they shoot at me if they are talking I can't hear them over the gunfire which doesn't really encourage me to steal my cats favorite toy dust it of and see if I can still use it as a mic chat needs an overhaul text and voice... um... blah blah wall of text /NERDRAGE

EDIT: No weapon diversify.. letf out infectors.. or would that spoil that argument.. just saying...
seriously though why do SMG's assault rifles and machine guns all use the same ammo?

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Originally Posted by Roscoe Wallace

One thing I absolutely love in an MMO is that there is a progression to the game. When I'm level 1 in an MMO, I shouldn't be able to run to a level 20 zone and kill the bad guys just as fast as the level 20 guy. I should get mowed down in seconds. A level 20 guy should be able to travel to the level 1 zone and obliterate the bad guys.

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That, and a lot of the other points you mention, are generally true in most MMORPG's. But not all MMO's are MMORPG's. Defiance isn't, and it's not trying to be. It's something different, as others have pointed out. It's first and foremost a shooter. It's massively multiplayer, and takes place in a persistent, open world online. But it's a shooter, and your enjoyment of the game is going to be heavily dependent on how much you like the actual core gameplay of running around and shooting enemies for the pure fun of doing it. And how well you do in it is going to be based largely on your own shooter gameplay skill, as well as the choices you make with regard to powers, perks, and weapons.

Having said that, perks and the combinations of them in high-end loadouts can make a lot more difference than you may realize. Where player skill level is equal, a 3000+ EGO player who has optimized his perk loadout to match his playstyle and weapons is going to have an edge over a similarly skilled player whose lower EGO level restricts his number of active perks and total perks he may have unlocked. But it's not going to be so prohibitive that the lower EGO player feels totally left behind, or hopeless vs most of the game's content. And that's the point behind why they did it this way, imo.

If you're looking for an online game that rewards you by making you feel godlike due just to your 'level', esp vs lower content as you describe, then you've got lots of games out there which follow that traditional approach. Most of them, in fact. But Defiance isn't one of them, and it's never claimed to be. That fact that it isn't like that is one thing quite a few players like about it.

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Originally Posted by Nerotic

EDIT: No weapon diversify.. letf out infectors.. or would that spoil that argument.. just saying...
seriously though why do SMG's assault rifles and machine guns all use the same ammo?

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maybe to force you to use different guns that work different on a mechanical level. let's be honest here, smg's, assault rifles and lmg's mechanically work just the same. so, the game basicly forces you to equip a different gun mechanic on your second weapon slot, so it doesn't get boring for you. some people don't get this and the game has to give those players an incentive to use different guns.

People say that this game is skill based, but how? I mean everything in this game is so easy that it requires no skill, just run and gun and maybe stay behind a wall for second for your shield to recharge. Even powers don't take any skill to be used at their full extend.

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Originally Posted by Larsmodeus

People say that this game is skill based, but how? I mean everything in this game is so easy that it requires no skill, just run and gun and maybe stay behind a wall for second for your shield to recharge. Even powers don't take any skill to be used at their full extend.

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Skill based vs stat based.

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Originally Posted by Larsmodeus

People say that this game is skill based, but how? I mean everything in this game is so easy that it requires no skill, just run and gun and maybe stay behind a wall for second for your shield to recharge. Even powers don't take any skill to be used at their full extend.

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+1 to this
And people who say that its skill based are trying to justify the fact that there's not point leveling up your ego

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Originally Posted by Larsmodeus

People say that this game is skill based, but how? I mean everything in this game is so easy that it requires no skill, just run and gun and maybe stay behind a wall for second for your shield to recharge. Even powers don't take any skill to be used at their full extend.

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Using your logics, heart surgery doesnt take any skill, all you do is do a few cuts here, suck some blood there, stitch here and done.
Flying a plane doesnt take skill all you do is sit down press a few buttons step on the peddles a few times pull the stick and hit a few buttons. (RL) sniping doesnt take skill all you do is hold the riffle look at the birdy and pull the tricker.
wether the entry lvl is very accesseble you cant do your missions afk, unlike the classic mmos like wow, rift, swtor, gw2, tsw, lineage2(extreme excample considering this game litterly alows auto play by hitting macro).

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Originally Posted by Panthan

Using your logics, heart surgery doesnt take any skill, all you do is do a few cuts here, suck some blood there, stitch here and done.
Flying a plane doesnt take skill all you do is sit down press a few buttons step on the peddles a few times pull the stick and hit a few buttons. (RL) sniping doesnt take skill all you do is hold the riffle look at the birdy and pull the tricker.
wether the entry lvl is very accesseble you cant do your missions afk, unlike the classic mmos like wow, rift, swtor, gw2, tsw, lineage2(extreme excample considering this game litterly alows auto play by hitting macro).

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Haaaaaaa haaaaaaaaa you have to train for years to become any of those wait wait haaaaaaa haaaaaa

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Originally Posted by Panthan

Using your logics, heart surgery doesnt take any skill, all you do is do a few cuts here, suck some blood there, stitch here and done.
Flying a plane doesnt take skill all you do is sit down press a few buttons step on the peddles a few times pull the stick and hit a few buttons. (RL) sniping doesnt take skill all you do is hold the riffle look at the birdy and pull the tricker.
wether the entry lvl is very accesseble you cant do your missions afk, unlike the classic mmos like wow, rift, swtor, gw2, tsw, lineage2(extreme excample considering this game litterly alows auto play by hitting macro).

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You compare easy game to HEART SURGERY? Really? Everybody knows surgery isn't easy and takes years of practice and skill.

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Originally Posted by marshy

Haaaaaaa haaaaaaaaa you have to train for years to become any of those wait wait haaaaaaa haaaaaa

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Accodring to larsmodeus (and you considering you expressed you agreed with him)'s logics.

But since you fell hook line and sinker.. lets dig deeper shall we?
Lets look at those basic games that qualify as mmo to your standings, pvp, you dont even have to be pressent at your keyboard to get your honor,valor, prestige pvp xp or what ever currency they reward for pvp.
pve? Other then having to be in the group all you have to do is IN the room to be eligeble to roll on loot and you get your marks plaques or what ever token they reward for kills either auto mated or have to manually pick them up.

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Originally Posted by Larsmodeus

You compare easy game to HEART SURGERY? Really? Everybody knows surgery isn't easy and takes years of practice and skill.

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Using your logics buddy, that and I never said heart surgery is easy, infact because it isnt I used YOUR logics on it to counter.. your logics.
Just has a different entry lvl.

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Originally Posted by Larsmodeus

You compare easy game to HEART SURGERY? Really? Everybody knows surgery isn't easy and takes years of practice and skill.

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You're l33t we get it! Just because you're so skillful you find this game too easy, doesn't mean everyone else does and whether you like it or not, the game does require some skill to shoot/aim, you're obviously just too good to acknowledge that.

I know.. why don't we turn Defiance into a tab-targeted auto-hit gear-oriented a.n.other generic MMO - that will require loads of skill to play, won't it!

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Originally Posted by Panthan

Lets look at those basic games that qualify as mmo to your standings, pvp, you dont even have to be pressent at your keyboard to get your honor,valor, prestige pvp xp or what ever currency they reward for pvp.
pve? Other then having to be in the group all you have to do is IN the room to be eligeble to roll on loot and you get your marks plaques or what ever token they reward for kills either auto mated or have to manually pick them up.

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Infact using WoW as excample.. the amounth of people exploiting not even having to pressent at their keyboard to be rewarded took such epidemic levels that they had to impliment all kinds of tools and countermeasures, suck as report-afk features in bgs, auto-non honor areas such as zone the starting area (like the AV caves) vote-kicks. etc etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Panthan

Accodring to larsmodeus (and you considering you expressed you agreed with him)'s logics.

But since you fell hook line and sinker.. lets dig deeper shall we?
Lets look at those basic games that qualify as mmo to your standings, pvp, you dont even have to be pressent at your keyboard to get your honor,valor, prestige pvp xp or what ever currency they reward for pvp.
pve? Other then having to be in the group all you have to do is IN the room to be eligeble to roll on loot and you get your marks plaques or what ever token they reward for kills either auto mated or have to manually pick them up.

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Im talking more about how defiance is shooter game, if you compare it to other shooter games this game is easy. Like I love Mass Effect 3 multiplayer and it took alot of practise and skill to learn to play my favored characters to their full potential and own harder difficulty levels even if you team was bad. Maybe this is wrong place to talk about it, there was few guys talking about how game is skill based few pages back.

It's first and foremost a shooter.(quote) from comment on page two
That's fine if you play on PC but us console players haven't been spoiled with mmos therefore we wanted a good one and as it stands this doesn't deliver ( at the moment)
And if its just a TPS there are much better ones than this and you mention interact with other players there is no communication with other players in this game the only time you bump into people is at arks or co-op doesn't really stand up as an mmo. Where's the content where's the endgame ( Korean grind fest is not content nor endgame)

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Originally Posted by Roscoe Wallace

When I think MMO, I think of:
-Character progression
-Loot
-Engaging storyline
-End game content that keeps me interested

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You sir, got everything confused. You are not thinking about MMO, your are thinking about MMORPG.

A massively multiplayer online game (also called MMO and MMOG) is a multiplayer video game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously. (by wikipedia).

/thread

I will try to keep my answer as neutral as I manage to do, because I got banned from the forums three times already for speaking up my mind.

Very good post OP. You pretty much nailed it.
All the issues you raised are the very reason why so many people are frustrated with this game and quit playing.
The biggest problem I see with this game is, that they made wrong advertising. Like you said, they advertise Defiance as an MMO.
I know that I bought the deluxe edition with the seasonal pass package blindly before even knowing what I was getting into, just because I saw it advertised wrongly.
This is of course my fault and my fault only, and no one else but me is to blame. At least I learned a lesson...

Trion could have saved itself a lot of troubles though if they would not have called it an MMO. If you browse the forums, every 2nd post is about how Defiance is not an MMO. If you look at reviews it is one of the big negative things always being pointed out.

There already are many threads with "haters" and "fanboys" (let´s call them that for the sake of the argument) going back and forth about what MMO actually means. In the end I think that we can all agree, that MMOs have characteristics and features which are expected, just because they have been implemented in any and every god damn MMO ever since MMOs popped into existence.

As you pointed out correctly, Defiance is lacking so many of those features.
It is just a shame really, this game could have been so great!

The absolute biggest problem for me is the following:
Yeah, sure you can patch and implement some features to make it feel a little closer to an actual MMO, like chat for example. I am really amazed and baffled, that they just won´t add a proper chat into the game. It has been 3 months now. I just cannot understand it.
Other things though, won´t ever be implemented. Things like character progression (as you pointed out, one of the biggest feature in any other MMO out there) won´t ever come. It just doesn´t work within this game and it´s philosophy. They would have to redo everything all over, and that is not going to happen.

So yeah, I for one finally gave up on trying to post constructive feedback a long time ago, and on hoping that this game will ever become a proper MMO. The way the game is built, it is just never going to happen.

I am sitting here anyway and typing this all down, just because I spent so much cash on this game and I am hoping to see a patch or a DLC coming, which lets me get at least some more enjoyment and playtime out of this game after the 1 week it took me to plow through it´s little content - havn´t touched the game since, just because there is nothing to do in my eyes. Oh wait, I could go find a couple of data records :S

And from time to time, I respond to threads like yours, sometimes I get banned for doing so, but it feels good to get some of the frustration I have with this game off my chest. I really do regret having "lost" all that money; and when it comes to people saying and thinking that, you just know that your game failed to live up to its potential.

Defiance is most definitely one of these cases.

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Originally Posted by Larsmodeus

Im talking more about how defiance is shooter game, if you compare it to other shooter games this game is easy. Like I love Mass Effect 3 multiplayer and it took alot of practise and skill to learn to play my favored characters to their full potential and own harder difficulty levels even if you team was bad. Maybe this is wrong place to talk about it, there was few guys talking about how game is skill based few pages back.

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Personally I found ME3 rather easy but thats me. But I do agree the entry lvl isnt that high (to me, unlike you I DO acknowlage this fact), then again most shooters are fairly simple to me, every single one uses some kind of AI that when you figure out the gimic they may as well just blindfold themselves stand against the wall and fall over.
PVP I fully agree there definately are ballance issues though funny enough, stealth shotgun, detonators and infectors arent even that hard to counter.
But the OP revers to this game as skill-less parcially because the game rewards people even with lesser contribution, opposing to not even having to be present at your keyboard to be fully rewarded for just being there pvp and pve wise (unfortinately WoW is the best excample of this) Not to mention those games are hard?? 1-2 macros or if you feel ballsy press 1 2 3 4 maybe 5 and start over again and you may have to do 2 steps back or forward on occasion.

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Originally Posted by CrazyBard

You're l33t we get it! Just because you're so skillful you find this game too easy, doesn't mean everyone else does and whether you like it or not, the game does require some skill to shoot/aim, you're obviously just too good to acknowledge that.

I know.. why don't we turn Defiance into a tab-targeted auto-hit gear-oriented a.n.other generic MMO - that will require loads of skill to play, won't it!

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To be honest, yes.

This is one thing I seriously don't get about the whole "skill based" thing. Defiance is easy, terribly so. But shooters in general aren't exactly rocket science. You point, you click, even in a good shooter it's not like there's a ton you have to do or keep track of.

Compare that to playing a good raid healer in WoW or Rift? There is no comparison. The number of things you have to keep track of and the amount of knowledge and skill required is multiple orders of magnitude above any shooter I've ever played -- and I've been playing shooters as long as there have been shooters.

Put another way, anyone can reach a reasonable level of proficiency in Defiance, the minimum floor is so low that I'm not entirely sure my cat couldn't do it. Only a small percentage of the population can learn to adequately fill the harder roles in most traditional MMOs. So how is it that shooters are somehow "skill based"? Being able to point-and-click is a "skill", but keeping track of half a dozen cooldowns, the position of status of anywhere from four to twenty-four other people, and keeping yourself out of trouble is somehow not?

Because, what, you honestly think your gear does all that for you?

Then again, I don't get the whole "It's a shooter first!" crap. Fallen Earth is a shooter, overall frankly a much better one than Defiance. It also happens to have one of the, if not the most sophisticated crafting system that exists in an MMO. Somehow it even manages to have real progression. In a shooter! Unpossible!

The whole need to constantly repeat the "You don't understand, it's skill based!!!111!!" and "You don't understand, it's a shooter first and since it fills the literal meaning of MMO that's all that counts!!!one!!!" is a symptom, one that sounds depressingly like "You're holding it wrong.". People leaving aren't going to give a rat's arse about whether or not it's "skill based" or a "TPS first", the subject keeps coming up, you have to keep repeating the same lines, because there are glaring lacks that are hurting the game.

Badly.

No amount of what is no more than making excuses is going to change that.

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Originally Posted by Myria

Then again, I don't get the whole "It's a shooter first!" crap. Fallen Earth is a shooter, overall frankly a much better one than Defiance. It also happens to have one of the, if not the most sophisticated crafting system that exists in an MMO. Somehow it even manages to have real progression. In a shooter! Unpossible!

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I agree, there is another MMO out there which manages to put progression into a shooter MMO: The secret world!

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Originally Posted by Panthan

Personally I found ME3 rather easy but thats me. But I do agree the entry lvl isnt that high (to me, unlike you I DO acknowlage this fact), then again most shooters are fairly simple to me, every single one uses some kind of AI that when you figure out the gimic they may as well just blindfold themselves stand against the wall and fall over.
PVP I fully agree there definately are ballance issues though funny enough, stealth shotgun, detonators and infectors arent even that hard to counter.
But the OP revers to this game as skill-less parcially because the game rewards people even with lesser contribution, opposing to not even having to be present at your keyboard to be fully rewarded for just being there pvp and pve wise (unfortinately WoW is the best excample of this) Not to mention those games are hard?? 1-2 macros or if you feel ballsy press 1 2 3 4 maybe 5 and start over again and you may have to do 2 steps back or forward on occasion.

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For me Mass Effect took surprisingly long to get my playstyle perfect with Fury and other adepts that I could handle everything if I was last man standing on platinium. Ofcourse there was super easy characters like Turian ghost etc. I really like Defiance and I hope that volge update and coming dlc kicks up the difficulty level.

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Originally Posted by Rend

I agree, there is another MMO out there which manages to put progression into a shooter MMO: The secret world!

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Secret World is an action MMO, not a shooter MMO.

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Originally Posted by marshy

It's first and foremost a shooter.(quote) from comment on page two

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You're right, but again... I wasn't saying it was a shooter first, MMO second. I was saying it was a shooter at its core, not an RPG. So it doesn't have so many of those other things people are accustomed to having as part of the MMORPG experience.

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Originally Posted by marshy

That's fine if you play on PC but us console players haven't been spoiled with mmos therefore we wanted a good one and as it stands this doesn't deliver ( at the moment)

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Now that puts a different spin on things, and I can better understand where you're coming from, since you've said that. We do have a lot of MMOs to choose from on the PC, and I like that this game is 'different' from most of the others. But I'm a console player too (both 360 and PS3), and you're exactly right -- true MMOs of any kind are still way, way too rare on the consoles. I never played the Final Fantasy MMOs on the consoles, but I do play DC Universe Online on the PS3. I would say that it is a true MMORPG (albeit an 'action-RPG'), and a fairly traditional one at its core, but not without its share of problems and shortcomings. But it's also not a buy-once kind of thing -- in order to enjoy the whole game, I have to pony up $80 every 6 months to keep playing it.

But yeah, I can understand your frustration better when you put it that way. I'm honestly not sure they ever really claimed that Defiance was going to be the kind of MMO to rival games like WoW or anything. It's just not that kind of game, and I wasn't expecting it to be like that, once I heard there would be no subscription. But I can totally see where you'd have extremely high hopes for it, given how few MMOs do show up for the consoles. Hopefully game devs will finally start putting more MMOs of all kinds out for the consoles, and we'll all have more to choose from.

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Originally Posted by Rakshasa

You're right, but again... I wasn't saying it was a shooter first, MMO second. I was saying it was a shooter at its core, not an RPG. So it doesn't have so many of those other things people are accustomed to having as part of the MMORPG experience.



Now that puts a different spin on things, and I can better understand where you're coming from, since you've said that. We do have a lot of MMOs to choose from on the PC, and I like that this game is 'different' from most of the others. But I'm a console player too (both 360 and PS3), and you're exactly right -- true MMOs of any kind are still way, way too rare on the consoles. I never played the Final Fantasy MMOs on the consoles, but I do play DC Universe Online on the PS3. I would say that it is a true MMORPG (albeit an 'action-RPG'), and a fairly traditional one at its core, but not without its share of problems and shortcomings. But it's also not a buy-once kind of thing -- in order to enjoy the whole game, I have to pony up $80 every 6 months to keep playing it.

But yeah, I can understand your frustration better when you put it that way. I'm honestly not sure they ever really claimed that Defiance was going to be the kind of MMO to rival games like WoW or anything. It's just not that kind of game, and I wasn't expecting it to be like that, once I heard there would be no subscription. But I can totally see where you'd have extremely high hopes for it, given how few MMOs do show up for the consoles. Hopefully game devs will finally start putting more MMOs of all kinds out for the consoles, and we'll all have more to choose from.

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Am hoping to see true MMOs on the next gen consoles and I hope other game devs won't be put off by the poor sales of this game

Personal definitions are irrelevant. You bought an MMO when you wanted an MMORPG. That’s on no one but you.