Trion BETA testing for warface/WHAT??!!

So i go to report a bug list for Defiance yesterday, and run across this little bugger...
http://www.warface.com/en/<---- copy and paste to your browser.

Immediately i was more than flamed. I was in rage. Like REALLY ENRAGED!!:mad::mad::mad:
Reasons:

1.) Trion can't even resolve the issues/bugs with their latest game..erhmm... Defiance.

2.) From my previous experiences, ALMOST every MMO that has done things like this, have put the current game on the back burner.
Why you ask?
To deal with the new games that they are pushing out to the public. Thus,we are left with very little changes made to Defiance.

3.) How can you expect me to beta test a new game when you can't even fix Defiance bugs?
Especially, when the bugs you fix aren't even the primary concern of the general gaming community,& they also mess the game up more than it was before.

Summary:
I like Defiance. I don't like being ignored to the point of what we tell you as a gaming community seem's to be ignored.
It's easy to get new PAYING customer's, but it is even harder to retain the one's that pay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Super NooberTrooper

So i go to report a bug list for Defiance yesterday, and run across this little bugger...
http://www.warface.com/en/<---- copy and paste to your browser.

Immediately i was more than flamed. I was in rage. Like REALLY ENRAGED!!:mad::mad::mad:
Reasons:

1.) Trion can't even resolve the issues/bugs with their latest game..erhmm... Defiance.

2.) From my previous experiences, ALMOST every MMO that has done things like this, have put the current game on the back burner.
Why you ask?
To deal with the new games that they are pushing out to the public. Thus,we are left with very little changes made to Defiance.

3.) How can you expect me to beta test a new game when you can't even fix Defiance bugs?
Especially, when the bugs you fix aren't even the primary concern of the general gaming community,& they also mess the game up more than it was before.

Summary:
I like Defiance. I don't like being ignored to the point of what we tell you as a gaming community seem's to be ignored.
It's easy to get new PAYING customer's, but it is even harder to retain the one's that pay.

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Yes i was told to move this post here. It was previously in Off Topic discussion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Super NooberTrooper

So i go to report a bug list for Defiance yesterday, and run across this little bugger...
http://www.warface.com/en/<---- copy and paste to your browser.

Immediately i was more than flamed. I was in rage. Like REALLY ENRAGED!!:mad::mad::mad:
Reasons:

1.) Trion can't even resolve the issues/bugs with their latest game..erhmm... Defiance.

2.) From my previous experiences, ALMOST every MMO that has done things like this, have put the current game on the back burner.
Why you ask?
To deal with the new games that they are pushing out to the public. Thus,we are left with very little changes made to Defiance.

3.) How can you expect me to beta test a new game when you can't even fix Defiance bugs?
Especially, when the bugs you fix aren't even the primary concern of the general gaming community,& they also mess the game up more than it was before.

Summary:
I like Defiance. I don't like being ignored to the point of what we tell you as a gaming community seem's to be ignored.
It's easy to get new PAYING customer's, but it is even harder to retain the one's that pay.

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two entirely different groups of people will be working on defiance and warface.

dat common sense

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Originally Posted by greatdividers

two entirely different groups of people will be working on defiance and warface.

dat common sense

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At reduced force because of layoffs. That still spells out support disaster.

Dat common sense too yo!

I believe Trion has a whole different team for Warface. The teams are currently separated amongst their current games, if I am understanding correctly. For instance, they have their Rift team, Defiance team, etc.

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Originally Posted by MagellanD

At reduced force because of layoffs. That still spells out support disaster.

Dat common sense too yo!

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Layoffs only affected the Defiance team I believe. They could have a whole different team working on the project that was unaffected by the layoffs. I believe the Rift team was unaffected.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MagellanD

At reduced force because of layoffs. That still spells out support disaster.

Dat common sense too yo!

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this has absolutely nothing to do with that the OP or myself were talking about.

*drum roll*

cool story bro!

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Originally Posted by greatdividers

two entirely different groups of people will be working on defiance and warface.

dat common sense

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I think that is a given, and that might be why games like Anarchy Online, S.U.N., Chaos Online, and various other MMO's are pretty much non existent anymore.

Trion says defiance nope just leave that it's not making any money anyway. Soon the gamers will give up and we can shut that **** down

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Originally Posted by greatdividers

two entirely different groups of people will be working on defiance and warface.

dat common sense

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Actually, it's the same support group. I have support conversation logs from when I tried Warface with the same GMs who're with Defiance. The reps are nice enough, but whoever is actually behind them are clueless as @#!$. I gave up trying to play that game after two weeks of going back and forth with their support.

It is only business sense at work here. Do you think car companies that have one car with problems are not working on other models or next year's versions?

The iPhone 1 had real problems, so I don't think Apple just stopped developing iPods.

And game companies do this all the time. Even as people are supposedly still bug hunting in Skyrim and Black Ops 2, other teams are working on other projects. The difference is some companies have other smaller companies working on the other projects. Treyarch for Black Ops2 and the new and uh, improved Infinity Ward for the next Ghost one.

Bioware had teams in Edmonton and Montreal that would work on different content for Mass Effect 3 while others were working on Dragon Age games. And some of the people that worked on ME games were transferred to work on DA games or SWTOR.

On the bright side. Warface does look like a good game to fall back on if Defiance ever does go belly up.

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

It is only business sense at work here. Do you think car companies that have one car with problems are not working on other models or next year's versions?

The iPhone 1 had real problems, so I don't think Apple just stopped developing iPods.

And game companies do this all the time. Even as people are supposedly still bug hunting in Skyrim and Black Ops 2, other teams are working on other projects. The difference is some companies have other smaller companies working on the other projects. Treyarch for Black Ops2 and the new and uh, improved Infinity Ward for the next Ghost one.

Bioware had teams in Edmonton and Montreal that would work on different content for Mass Effect 3 while others were working on Dragon Age games. And some of the people that worked on ME games were transferred to work on DA games or SWTOR.

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Do you think ALL of those companies ignored their customer's whining, b*tching,& complaining such as Trion has?
Sad to say, but i have more fun on the forums than i do," in game."

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Originally Posted by Ryme

Actually, it's the same support group. I have support conversation logs from when I tried Warface with the same GMs who're with Defiance. The reps are nice enough, but whoever is actually behind them are clueless as @#!$. I gave up trying to play that game after two weeks of going back and forth with their support.

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Lmfao!!
Thank you! I needed that laugh, seriously!

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Originally Posted by Super NooberTrooper

Do you think ALL of those companies ignored their customer's whining, b*tching,& complaining such as Trion has?
Sad to say, but i have more fun on the forums than i do," in game."

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Yes I do. Actually, they all have. Activision/Treyarch never talked to fans over all the BS that occurred with Black Ops 2 and Activision keeps releasing CoD games that are really not so different from every other CoD game they've always released and yet the bugs get worse with each new game.

Skyrim-where to start. Ever played a Bethesda game? Same bugs, different version of the exact same game with better looking stuff. Bethesda decided the PS3 would never get DLC for Skyrim even though fans were outraged. One dev even insulted PS3 fans and the console itself even though the problem was Bethesda's lack of knowledge about how to program for the console. It took Sony's intervention to make Bethesda take a step back and develop DLC for the PS3-with help from Sony's programming team.

Mass Effect 3-gee, what planet have you been on? They raised ignoring the customer to an art form and did everything they could do to ignore and insult current fans who had bought 2 previous games and the current game. That is, until it started to affect their finances and EA's stock prices. They then went on to release DLC with bugs that they decided to never fix or even address. Under EA's new policies all EA games will have multiplayer (which they have been trying to use as DRM), microtransactions which the head of EA said was a policy to get players to pay for bullets, and most likely will include Day One DLC-DLC that is content that should have been included in the core game but which they will release separately on release day in order to get players to pay for extra content BEFORE they even know if they'll like the game.

No, no other companies have ever mistreated their customers, ever. Only those with the longest legacy in gaming who consistently repeat their past mistakes and NEVER start a true conversation with fans and most often NEVER fix the bugs that have always plagued their games. Bad, bad Trion. Fairly new smaller company, created a new type of game for consoles that has bugs, but they definitely should be criticized far more than those other huge companies out there that keep creating basically the exact same game that has the exact same bugs and a lot of new ones.

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Originally Posted by Leathernek1

On the bright side. Warface does look like a good game to fall back on if Defiance ever does go belly up.

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Game seriously looks like a generic squad war game... I'll pass... Rift F2P is coming and Rift seems to be my go-to game as I wait for the next holy grail.

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Originally Posted by Super NooberTrooper

Do you think ALL of those companies ignored their customer's whining, b*tching,& complaining such as Trion has?
Sad to say, but i have more fun on the forums than i do," in game."

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But, Warface is not only developed by a seperate group from Defiance... They're by two different companies. Trion developed Defiance in-house. Warface is from the makers of Crysis and Far Cry. http://trionworlds.com/en/games/warface/

You can find out more about GFace here: http://www.gface.com/careers

warface beta has been around since the defiance beta. this game has always existed so whats the fuss for?:confused:

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

Yes I do. Actually, they all have. Activision/Treyarch never talked to fans over all the BS that occurred with Black Ops 2 and Activision keeps releasing CoD games that are really not so different from every other CoD game they've always released and yet the bugs get worse with each new game.

Skyrim-where to start. Ever played a Bethesda game? Same bugs, different version of the exact same game with better looking stuff. Bethesda decided the PS3 would never get DLC for Skyrim even though fans were outraged. One dev even insulted PS3 fans and the console itself even though the problem was Bethesda's lack of knowledge about how to program for the console. It took Sony's intervention to make Bethesda take a step back and develop DLC for the PS3-with help from Sony's programming team.

Mass Effect 3-gee, what planet have you been on? They raised ignoring the customer to an art form and did everything they could do to ignore and insult current fans who had bought 2 previous games and the current game. That is, until it started to affect their finances and EA's stock prices. They then went on to release DLC with bugs that they decided to never fix or even address. Under EA's new policies all EA games will have multiplayer (which they have been trying to use as DRM), microtransactions which the head of EA said was a policy to get players to pay for bullets, and most likely will include Day One DLC-DLC that is content that should have been included in the core game but which they will release separately on release day in order to get players to pay for extra content BEFORE they even know if they'll like the game.

No, no other companies have ever mistreated their customers, ever. Only those with the longest legacy in gaming who consistently repeat their past mistakes and NEVER start a true conversation with fans and most often NEVER fix the bugs that have always plagued their games. Bad, bad Trion. Fairly new smaller company, created a new type of game for consoles that has bugs, but they definitely should be criticized far more than those other huge companies out there that keep creating basically the exact same game that has the exact same bugs and a lot of new ones.

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This is all good but what's this gotta do with trion/defiance not fixing the game and having a crappy support team for the game. This game will be dropped faster than mike Tyson in his last fight

Why are people surprised? Alpha has been going on for Warface for months now.

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Originally Posted by Dirasyajx

warface beta has been around since the defiance beta. this game has always existed so whats the fuss for?:confused:

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Hmm, never knew that. Then again, i am a new paying customer to Trion.
Think i'll just wait for Watch Dog's to come out before i spend anymore cash on anything else.

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Originally Posted by Super NooberTrooper

Hmm, never knew that. Then again, i am a new paying customer to Trion.
Think i'll just wait for Watch Dog's to come out before i spend anymore cash on anything else.

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Yep this my first trion game and it will be the last

sigh... just replied to this in off-topic >.<

copy/paste:
@OP:

The Beta for Warface has been ongoing... since prior to the release of Defiance.

Why would they stop development on another product (which will potentially bring them more money) just because this product is having issues? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Are you suggesting that they bring the developers from Warface to somehow assist in fixing Defiance? This would be a terrible idea, as the devs from Warface are completely unfamiliar with this game.

I guess I'm not sure what you're so upset about...

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Originally Posted by marshy

This is all good but what's this gotta do with trion/defiance not fixing the game and having a crappy support team for the game.

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do you even read? or just troll? let me spell it out for you because apparently reading is hard.

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Originally Posted by Super NooberTrooper

Do you think ALL of those companies ignored their customer's whining, b*tching,& complaining such as Trion has?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

Yes I do. Actually, they all have. Activision/Treyarch never talked to fans over all the BS that occurred with Black Ops 2 and Activision keeps releasing CoD games that are really not so different from every other CoD game they've always released and yet the bugs get worse with each new game.

*snip*

No, no other companies have ever mistreated their customers, ever. Only those with the longest legacy in gaming who consistently repeat their past mistakes and NEVER start a true conversation with fans and most often NEVER fix the bugs that have always plagued their games. Bad, bad Trion. Fairly new smaller company, created a new type of game for consoles that has bugs, but they definitely should be criticized far more than those other huge companies out there that keep creating basically the exact same game that has the exact same bugs and a lot of new ones.

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Originally Posted by greatdividers

do you even read? or just troll? let me spell it out for you because apparently reading is hard.

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That's all good but what's that have to do with trion/defiance not fixing the game

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Originally Posted by marshy

This is all good but what's this gotta do with trion/defiance not fixing the game and having a crappy support team for the game. This game will be dropped faster than mike Tyson in his last fight

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I was responding to a specific question.

And no this game will not be dropped. A lot of people are having fun playing it, bugs and all. I know I am and I know I don't speak for everyone but I was asked if other game devs are as bad as Trion and if other games are basically. My answer is that many are far worse. The point here is that people seem all too willing to give older franchises with problems that continue from their first release to their current one, the benefit of all doubt and they still buy and just LOOOOOOOVE those companies. But here is Trion, a newer smaller company making a newer type of game and actually creating in game methods for people to contact them and applying respectful people to try and field some community complaints and questions AND patching as frequently as Sony and Microsoft will allow (since they have to sign off on all console patches), and people are acting like Trion just killed their puppy. They are actually gleefully hoping for Trion's demise but will probably go out and buy the next CoD piece of repetitive and bugged garbage, and will praise Bethesda for their brand new open world sandbox game that's so different from anything we've ever seen and ignore their constant freeze ups and other bugs that have been a longstanding feature of their games.

Sure complain about Defiance but keep it real. Trion is not the worst gaming company that has ever existed. They aren't secretly trying to drink our blood and abduct our children, and they have shown that they are aware of issues in the game and are trying to fix them.


The way you are parsing it is as if they are just totally ignoring the fact that there are bugs and that's well um, not true. And you may see their support team as crappy but I've never seen support that has actually been this good. I send in a support ticket and within a few hours at most, it's answered. Not always as I'd like but sometimes the fix is immediate. Sometimes they tell me my problem is a known bug and they ask me to report that I have the bug too. In other games, your lucky if anyone even sees that you've had a problem with the game. I've only ever played one other game where the support team responded-and that was months after I submitted the issue for a game that I was a private beta tester on.

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Originally Posted by marshy

That's all good but what's that have to do with trion/defiance not fixing the game

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Quick question here... How many MMO's have you played?
I have Astonia 3, S.U.N, Anarchy Online, Nine Ninja's, all of Guild Wars, Kings of Chaos MMO, and a slew of others...
Also, have you actually read any of what i initially said in the beginning?

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Originally Posted by marshy

That's all good but what's that have to do with trion/defiance not fixing the game

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Wow, repetition really makes that sound even more brilliant. Your statement is meant to imply that they are not even trying to fix it. Go play Black Ops 2 and report a problem and see how far that gets you. They just accept that certain bugs don't ever need to be fixed, whereas Trion is working on the bugs this game has. I assume when something that is a problem for you gets fixed, you will come back here and make a thread about how they did fix it, right?

education on the internet...

actually, warface is in closed beta for a loooong time in russia. it's not developed by trion.

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

I was responding to a specific question.

And no this game will not be dropped. A lot of people are having fun playing it, bugs and all. I know I am and I know I don't speak for everyone but I was asked if other game devs are as bad as Trion and if other games are basically. My answer is that many are far worse. The point here is that people seem all too willing to give older franchises with problems that continue from their first release to their current one, the benefit of all doubt and they still buy and just LOOOOOOOVE those companies. But here is Trion, a newer smaller company making a newer type of game and actually creating in game methods for people to contact them and applying respectful people to try and field some community complaints and questions AND patching as frequently as Sony and Microsoft will allow (since they have to sign off on all console patches), and people are acting like Trion just killed their puppy. They are actually gleefully hoping for Trion's demise but will probably go out and buy the next CoD piece of repetitive and bugged garbage, and will praise Bethesda for their brand new open world sandbox game that's so different from anything we've ever seen and ignore their constant freeze ups and other bugs that have been a longstanding feature of their games.

Sure complain about Defiance but keep it real. Trion is not the worst gaming company that has ever existed. They aren't secretly trying to drink our blood and abduct our children, and they have shown that they are aware of issues in the game and are trying to fix them.


The way you are parsing it is as if they are just totally ignoring the fact that there are bugs and that's well um, not true. And you may see their support team as crappy but I've never seen support that has actually been this good. I send in a support ticket and within a few hours at most, it's answered. Not always as I'd like but sometimes the fix is immediate. Sometimes they tell me my problem is a known bug and they ask me to report that I have the bug too. In other games, your lucky if anyone even sees that you've had a problem with the game. I've only ever played one other game where the support team responded-and that was months after I submitted the issue for a game that I was a private beta tester on.

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Consider yourself lucky, because i know quite a few people that can not ever fill out a bug report, or submit a ticket.
Also, as i have submitted all of the bugs i have found, i have received only 1 , and i do mean 1 single response in the 2 month's i have been here.
No E-mail, or in game conformation.
To the demise of the company, no you are quite mistaken. Hence, i still play the game, and if i truly wasn't interested in sticking around; i wouldn't even post on the forums.
All i am asking is for the bugs and complaint's of this game to be resolved... not 6 months from now, and not next year, but at least some time soon.
Instead of continuing to ADD to the game, how about trying to FIX what is already broken?
That's like me having a 1964 sports car , adding the tricked out mod's on it, and completely ignoring that i have a cracked head on the engine block.
I then try to enter it into a Car show, and expect to receive a trophy/cash reward.... make's no sense, i know....but it does sound quite familiar, now doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by Super NooberTrooper

Instead of continuing to ADD to the game, how about trying to FIX what is already broken?
That's like me having a 1964 sports car , adding the tricked out mod's on it, and completely ignoring that i have a cracked head on the engine block.
I then try to enter it into a Car show, and receive a trophy/cash reward.... make's no sense, i know....but it does sound quite familiar, now doesn't it?

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i'm not sure how many times this needs to be said but here we go again.

there are separate teams working on bug fixes and new content.

your analogy would work if you had 2 people working on the car simultaneously. one adding to it and the other fixing.

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Originally Posted by greatdividers

i'm not sure how many times this needs to be said but here we go again.

there are separate teams working on bug fixes and new content.

your analogy would work if you had 2 people working on the car simultaneously. one adding to it and the other fixing.

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Actually had you read all the way through ALL of the post's you would have found that i specifically stated that i WILL NOT spend anymore CASH on this game.
I will wait for Watch Dog's to come out on the PS4. :)
Which we can pre-order now, but i am still waiting for the unveiling of the PS4 before i do that.
So, this topic can actually be closed now.

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Originally Posted by Super NooberTrooper

Actually had you read all the way through ALL of the post's you would have found that i specifically stated that i WILL NOT spend anymore CASH on this game.
I will wait for Watch Dog's to come out on the PS4. :)
Which we can pre-order now, but i am still waiting for the unveiling of the PS4 before i do that.
So, this topic can actually be closed now.

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dibs next on the bowl of crack you're smoking. please point out where i said anything about spending more cash on this game.

kthx

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Originally Posted by Super NooberTrooper

Consider yourself lucky, because i know quite a few people that can not ever fill out a bug report, or submit a ticket.
Also, as i have submitted all of the bugs i have found, i have received only 1 , and i do mean 1 single response in the 2 month's i have been here.
No E-mail, or in game conformation.
To the demise of the company, no you are quite mistaken. Hence, i still play the game, and if i truly wasn't interested in sticking around; i wouldn't even post on the forums.
All i am asking is for the bugs and complaint's of this game to be resolved... not 6 months from now, and not next year, but at least some time soon.
Instead of continuing to ADD to the game, how about trying to FIX what is already broken?
That's like me having a 1964 sports car , adding the tricked out mod's on it, and completely ignoring that i have a cracked head on the engine block.
I then try to enter it into a Car show, and expect to receive a trophy/cash reward.... make's no sense, i know....but it does sound quite familiar, now doesn't it?

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And yet I know I'm not special. To be clear, some things require support tickets-those are for things that are specific to your game. Say you bought an outfit and didn't get it-support ticket. Lost boosts-support ticket. Completed a challenge but the game didn't credit it-support ticket. But if the problem is not something that someone at the helpdesk can fix they may tell you to submit a bug report. They may tell you this is not something that can be easily fixed or it may be a known issue and needs to have a bug report submitted. The explanation will follow that says submitting a bug report lets the devs know of the issue and they can see all that is going on with the character that experienced the bug and they compile data that shows a lot of people having the same problem.

My feeling is there are two different teams working on these things. Support tickets can result in quick solutions, but bugs require programming. The bug reports do not result in replies-they mean patches when it's obvious a lot of people are having the same issue. They always answer support tickets and the longest I've waited for them to answer one has been a few hours.

Out of curiosity what is happening when those people attempt to fill out the bug report or support ticket? I've never heard of anyone not being able to use that feature. Not saying that doesn't happen but as I said curious.


I think the implication here from many people is that Trion is just off eating cake and couldn't care less if the game works or not-yet they have the most to lose if things don't get fixed. It's just expecting things to be solved quickly is often unrealistic. For one thing, patches do always introduce new bugs. For another, Sony and MS have rules for submitted content-patches and DLC-and they have to scrutinize it and sign off on it. The three platforms may all have specific reasons for the bugs that exist-even the same bugs and require different fixes.

In most other games, some of these bugs would be totally ignored and result in an acceptable loss scenario-the company would not care about it unless it resulted in loss of money. Trion has good reason to want to fix these things because they impact future purchases and continued support. No one is more interested in fixing issues in the game than they are-I believe this fully.

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Originally Posted by greatdividers

dibs next on the bowl of crack you're smoking. please point out where i said anything about spending more cash on this game.

kthx

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Wow, are we hostile, or what?
OK, let me spell it out for you.... I was attempting to close out the conversation about 2 pages ago. Sometime's it pay's to read between the lines.
Meaning, i am stating that NOT YOU...NOT EVERYTHING revolves around YOU, but TRION is losing a PAYING customer.
Put that in your pipe, and smoke it :)

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Originally Posted by greatdividers

do you even read? or just troll? let me spell it out for you because apparently reading is hard.

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he just trolls

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Originally Posted by Super NooberTrooper

Wow, are we hostile, or what?
OK, let me spell it out for you.... I was attempting to close out the conversation about 2 pages ago. Sometime's it pay's to read between the lines.
Meaning, i am stating that NOT YOU...NOT EVERYTHING revolves around YOU, but TRION is losing a PAYING customer.

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you quoted me... must be new to forums eh?

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Originally Posted by Indra Echo

And yet I know I'm not special. To be clear, some things require support tickets-those are for things that are specific to your game. Say you bought an outfit and didn't get it-support ticket. Lost boosts-support ticket. Completed a challenge but the game didn't credit it-support ticket. But if the problem is not something that someone at the helpdesk can fix they may tell you to submit a bug report. They may tell you this is not something that can be easily fixed or it may be a known issue and needs to have a bug report submitted. The explanation will follow that says submitting a bug report lets the devs know of the issue and they can see all that is going on with the character that experienced the bug and they compile data that shows a lot of people having the same problem.

My feeling is there are two different teams working on these things. Support tickets can result in quick solutions, but bugs require programming. The bug reports do not result in replies-they mean patches when it's obvious a lot of people are having the same issue. They always answer support tickets and the longest I've waited for them to answer one has been a few hours.

Out of curiosity what is happening when those people attempt to fill out the bug report or support ticket? I've never heard of anyone not being able to use that feature. Not saying that doesn't happen but as I said curious.

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Well, from what was explained to me:
1.) Player tries to open the Bug Report, and attempt's to key in the bug complaint. The Bug report either freeze's up, and they have to close it out, and try again, and again , again.
2.) Player is able to Type in the box, but proof reads and want's to correct a typo. The cursor key freeze's up and lock's the complaint form solid, and is forced to exit. However, i have found a solution to that was to scroll down to the submit, and try again. It take's several attempts, but with the right determination, it can be done.
3.) As soon as the," box/ form" is opened, it will close out instantly,( on it's own without any player interaction.)

Dear God, I hope he just found that avatar pic. My Dad was in the U.S.Navy, my younger brother was in the U.S.Navy. I was a U.S.Marine. If this guy is or was in the U.S.Navy he hides it well. What about the Can Do attitude? Doesn't the modern Navy take responsibility? Please tell me they're not whiners.

Play Skyrim nuff said.