Upcoming Balance Changes

[IAMVILELENT]

I have to admit to enjoying the tears of all the people that can't accept that the SAW needs a nerf. It does more bullet damage than all other automatic weapons as well as having a good fire rate, long range before falloff and massive magazine. I'm surprised it's lasted this long tbh.

Could some of the other weapons do with a tweak (buff/nerf)? Sure. But the SAW is a good place to start, and this won't be the last balance pass they do.

The SAW has almost a 50 dmg fall off after 40m, it drops by nearly 10 for every 10m beyond that, it's reliable range is between 10m-40m, it has one of the slower rates of fires compared to every other weapon in the game including LMG's, and other then a shotty, and even some shottys are faster. Of course it does more damage, it has more Bloom and Recoil then any of the other fully automatic weapons. It NEEDS a burst mod in it to be worth a damn in PVP. Also shooting someone in the back with it while they have rearguard equipped, rewards you 50-150 damage, thats IF they dont happen to have cellular armor, or thick skinned poped, if ether of those are present you're talking even LESS damage, you would need to reload to kill someone with a full mag, oh wait, the reload time is just enough for someones shield to regen, start over. Please know wtf you're talking about if you're going to talk about it like you know something.

[Erei]

[*]SAW’s – The SAW weapons (FRC SAW, Frontier SAW and Machinist’s Gun) were all outperforming both other light machine guns and many other weapons. We have lowered the damage on these weapons to bring their overall effective DPS back in line with other weapons.

OFC they are outperforming the others light machine gun, the LMGs are the worst weapons ingame, except for the SAW. So instead of buffing the others LMGs to have them usefull, they nerf the SAW to oblivion. Congrats, now the whole LMG category is useless.
Oh well, time to use an AR, and wait 6months until Trion buff the LMG "back on line with others weapons" (IE effective). Like they just realized the RL were nerfed so hard they are useless, except for one of them, which is average.

[NyxJix]

The SAW has almost a 50 dmg fall off after 40m, it drops by nearly 10 for every 10m beyond that, it's reliable range is between 10m-40m, it has one of the slower rates of fires compared to every other weapon in the game including LMG's, and other then a shotty, and even some shottys are faster. Of course it does more damage, it has more Bloom and Recoil then any of the other fully automatic weapons. It NEEDS a burst mod in it to be worth a damn in PVP. Also shooting someone in the back with it while they have rearguard equipped, rewards you 50-150 damage, thats IF they dont happen to have cellular armor, or thick skinned poped, if ether of those are present you're talking even LESS damage, you would need to reload to kill someone with a full mag, oh wait, the reload time is just enough for someones shield to regen, start over. Please know wtf you're talking about if you're going to talk about it like you know something.

Putting a burst mag on a saw is a sure way to destroy the weapon IMO. This may be why you perceived there to be a stealth recoil nerf as the burst mag totally kills any recoil control you have with the saw. I have not noticed any nerfs to the saw and I have been using them in PvP for quite some time now.

My setup has always been a rapid reloader with damage fall off barrel and it is crazy powerful in PvP - Both in a sniper role and medium range shooting. Before everyone goes ape **** over the nerf we should probably find out more information (<=25% nerf would be fine in my eyes).

[BlackR3ap3r]

Nerfing the SAWs is bull Schtako.........they are supposed to be a "super weapon" and if this is being done do to make PVPers happy thats just stupid.....not everyone plays PVP and ruining the game for the PVE players wont make you more money if anything it will make more ppl rage-quit when they try and use a neutered SAW against the Volge or Darkmatter Bulwarks and have there rear end handed to them.....the SAWs allow ppl to solo most large mobs and if there damage is lowered too much people who play when the servers are nearly dead just wont play anymore.......

[Moa]

you guys are making the same mistake many other companies are making.

if your players are using a weapon over other weapons, you can look at that as either that weapon is overpowered, or else every other weapon is under powered.


if you nerf the popular builds/weapons, then people will quit, or adapt. as this is not a "pay to play" game like a MMO, then it is irrelevant if players quit as you have already made your money off them. but this also means less players will pick up the game as you get negative word of mouth.

nerfing things hurts future sales of defiance. buffing things never hurts sales.

the fact you are so frequently nerfing things rather than buffing things tells me that you are focusing on PvP and not PvE. for PvP weapons/skills that create high performance ratios vs people who dont, it becomes a serious issue. for PvE, weapons/skills that create high performance ratios is not a priority, especially when you release "tougher" content such as the voluge. when you nerf high performers, you make the content harder.


i find it wierd that you are nerfing the SAWs while allowing a variety of guns that do under 100 dmg a shot, and even under 200 dmg a shot. what is the point in the current game of a weapon that does 40 dmg a shot. or even 160-180 a shot.

what is the point of having these weapons in the game?

before you nerf the SAWs, how about boosting these weapons to be usable in the games current incarnation. they are effectively useless.

i am dissapointed. when people at work ask me about the game, i have told them that the game is decent, but unless they are really interested, hold off on buying it. if the SAW becomes less usable, then really all i could tell them is that they may not want to pick it up as trion is more interested in nerfing than boosting. we are all typically 30+ males, so we have extensive experience with companies who go the nerf route. not sure why it is so popular, but it is.

companies that continously nerf, lose customers. companies that fail to delever consistently on even basic promises/expectations find themselves no longer in business. there is an extensive history proving this.

nerfing costs sales. there is ample evidence of this. continue down this road of favoring nerfing over buffing, and you will just be another failed company.

it is a basic human nature trait. we would rather be rewarded than punished. you are rolling up a newspaper and smacking us on the head/butt telling us "bad boy!". if you seriously think punishing your customers is a good idea, then you need to fire a lot of people.

punish your players, and you will go bankrupt. there is only 1 business that punishing your clients brings them back. you are not in that business.

Well said & great post.

Agree completely.

[piercehead]

The SAW has almost a 50 dmg fall off after 40m, it drops by nearly 10 for every 10m beyond that, it's reliable range is between 10m-40m, it has one of the slower rates of fires compared to every other weapon in the game including LMG's, and other then a shotty, and even some shottys are faster. Of course it does more damage, it has more Bloom and Recoil then any of the other fully automatic weapons. It NEEDS a burst mod in it to be worth a damn in PVP. Also shooting someone in the back with it while they have rearguard equipped, rewards you 50-150 damage, thats IF they dont happen to have cellular armor, or thick skinned poped, if ether of those are present you're talking even LESS damage, you would need to reload to kill someone with a full mag, oh wait, the reload time is just enough for someones shield to regen, start over. Please know wtf you're talking about if you're going to talk about it like you know something.

I care not for PvP, which is most of what you're saying. Also, you're arguing about how much less damage you do against people with damage reduction perks, which are % based, so affect all weapons equally...which is pointless. You're arguing that up to and over 100 rounds of 400 dmg before reductions may require you to reload to kill someone? What, you want the gun to also be a great burst weapon too...or maybe not have to suffer a long reload time as a penalty of having an enormous magazine?

Mainly though, nothing you say counters anything I posted, so how exactly do I not "know wtf you're talking about"?.

Yes, it has falloff over 40m...like every gun in the game apart from snipers. You're trying to compare the RoF with other LMGs, seriously? The ones that fire faster either a) do about half damage and start off less accurate or b) fire in bursts with a massive delay between bursts, hence why everyone agrees all the other LMGs are schtako.

As far as RoF compared to other automatic weapons, they all do less damage and have greater falloff penalties...it's called balance :P

Recoil? If you're using it at its optimum range, that's not a problem...or if you're using Overcharge. If you want to shoot stuff at long range, that's kind of why there are these other weapons, with more accuracy and smaller clips (Snipers, ARs). Or you really DO think the SAW should be able to beat every gun at every range?

[IAMVILELENT]

Putting a burst mag on a saw is a sure way to destroy the weapon IMO. This may be why you perceived there to be a stealth recoil nerf as the burst mag totally kills any recoil control you have with the saw. I have not noticed any nerfs to the saw and I have been using them in PvP for quite some time now.

My setup has always been a rapid reloader with damage fall off barrel and it is crazy powerful in PvP - Both in a sniper role and medium range shooting. Before everyone goes ape **** over the nerf we should probably find out more information (<=25% nerf would be fine in my eyes).

If you've used the SAW with a burst mod youd see that putting a burst mod on it makes your first 6-10 shots way more accurate then without it. You literally burst, a burst fire. If that makes sense.

[Epyon]

-Instead of nerfing the SAW, how about buffing the other LMGs? Theyre not only outperformed by most other guns, but instantly discarded due to poor performance. The Disruptor in particular.

-Why lower the FRC Heavy Scatterguns damage per pellet? Its now just a slower version of the scattergun. It does the exact same damage but slower. Adding pellets wont help, its con outweigh the pros (if more less damaging pellets would be a pro). If it has a slower fire rate why not raise the damage? If it would help the "balancing" then lower the fire rate in exchange for its old damage back. Take the Heavy Carbine and the Carbine into account, you can tell the difference in the performance but both are still viable options. But with the Heavy Scattergun vs Scattergun, its just a gun and a slower version that offers no benefits.

-Will the infector bubbles no longer block the scopes of weapons? If thats whats going to be implemented then great. The infectors might need more tweaking but we're going in the right direction here.

-Conserning nano-effects, now that the proc chance is being addressed, how about balancing the effects to keep up with syphon? Given that it outperforms all other nano-effects by far. How about adjusting them to match up to it?

-Pistols. Glad the ammo pool is going up. Would just like the Wolfhound to get the same treatment the SAW is getting. It outperforms ALL other guns bar none, nuff said.

[Rakshasa]

I am astonished at this. I really expected that joke called the Disruptor to get a buff. Instead you nerf the #1 gun in the game. I am at a loss.

You're not alone. This seems to be a summary of the #1 negative comment here. I've read "the SAW is the best gun in the game, why nerf it?" over and over.

The answer is in the question -- there shouldn't be an undisputed #1 gun. There shouldn't be one "best weapon", if you care anything at all about having some kind of balance in a game. Obviously the devs do, and some of the players do as well.

The fact that most all of us do honestly and realistically recognize that the SAW is the "top gun" due to the relative ease with which you can pour out huge dps from a massive clip, is the exact reason that it is due for some adjustment to get it back in line with the weapon curve of the game.

Now, there absolutely are other guns that need some upwards adjustment to get them in line as well, particularly some of the poor LMGs whose drawbacks and usability quirks make the amount of damage they do not worth the trouble. They need a buff of some kind to fall in line with the rest of the arsenal. But when you look at the numbers, the SAW is out of line with all weapons, not just its fellow LMGs. And unlike a lot of weapons, there's no real limitation that makes you work to get the dps out of it. You don't have to worry about crits or precision, you don't have to worry about ammo limitations and reloading, you don't have to rely on nano proc rates or mod combos. All you have to do is have the slightest bit of discipline to let up on the trigger once in a while, and you have the easy-mode king dps gun by default. There's a reason people are paying silly amounts of scrip for just this one type of gun, and the fact that they are highlights the problem.

So at this point, the devs basically have 3 options:

1. Forget about the idea of balance altogether, and just let there be one or two weapons that are so clearly overpowered that people have apparently based their entire desire to play the game on using one. (Which boggles my mind, but whatever.) Just give up and make it basically a one-gun game. But to counter the "game/enemies/content is too easy!" complaints we already hear all the time, all content will then have to be calibrated with the assumption that everyone is using that top-end weapon, making all the other guns seem even more weak and obsolete. Think some weapons seem useless now? Balance all the content vs the most overpowered ones, and 98% of them will be useless.

2. Try to have balance by buffing all the other weapons to roughly the same level of power as the dominant weapon, whether by increasing their dmg, fire rates, lessening their quirky limitations, etc. Then we have all super guns. Every weapon is totally awesome. Yay. But without also buffing up our adversaries, all the folks who already complain about the game and enemies being way too easy will be absolutely right. If every weapon has comparable dmg and ease of use as the SAW, then what we're shooting at is going to have to be seriously buffed up as well, or things will be far too easy. And once you do that, guess what? You've accomplished the exact same thing as reducing the SAW's power, because it's all relative. You've just brought it in line by raising every other number in the game, rather than lowering its number. It's the same result.

3. Try for some balance by bumping the most obvious statistical outlier down a bit, to get it back closer to the rest of the guns in the game.

I am not surprised they're going with 3, and I would too, if I were them. Despite the outcry, we don't even know how much it'll be adjusted yet -- it might be a little, it might be a lot. I suspect it'll still have the insane ammo reserve, be just as point-and-shoot easy as it is to use now, and two of them well-modded and used with Preparedness will probably still feel like you've turned on a cheat code somehow. There are other ideas they could do, that people have pointed out here -- make you slow to a crawl when you have one armed, make your aiming response slower, etc. But we all know people would cry bloody murder over those too, and they'd also be "nerfs" which rendered their baby "****ing useless!!!1!!11!!omgimnevergoingtoplayagain!!1!!".

An adjustment to the damage seems to me to be a reasonable way to address the balance and make it competitive with the better ARs and SMGs, provided they don't go completely overboard and make it competitive with the Disruptor.

[Sajin]

Don't forget to take out everything that's somewhat fun in the game. Oh wait...