The outcry justifies the nerf

[Sgt Baltimore]

The solution can't always be "just buff everything else". The change is being made because the SAW is handling almost all situations easier than the devs intend. So they COULD buff all the other weapons to compensate. Then EVERY weapon would be handling those situations easier than what they intend so the devs would have to then buff everything in the game to bring things in line.

And this has nothing to do with pvp as it's rarely used there and when it is, it's nowhere near as OP as it is in PVE.

Which leads to the question: why buff/nerf anything on pve side at all when this game is mostly a single player adventure game rather than a traditional mmo? Your supposed to have fun and feel dangerous when ur running around in pve. The saw allows that and the volge were a welcome addition as far as I'm concerned when it comes to difficulty lvl. I can understand nerfing certain things on the pvp side to try and make it more enjoyable for a wider audience. But NOBODY was complaining about the saw so what reason would they nerf it?

[jbob spittlewop]

Right now instead of rock, paper, scissors, we are playing rock, howitzer, volcano. Balance does need to be restored but if they had implemented the proper mechanics in the first place it wouldn't have been a problem.

[SaneFail]

Which leads to the question: why buff/nerf anything on pve side at all when this game is mostly a single player adventure game rather than a traditional mmo? Your supposed to have fun and feel dangerous when ur running around in pve. The saw allows that and the volge were a welcome addition as far as I'm concerned when it comes to difficulty lvl. I can understand nerfing certain things on the pvp side to try and make it more enjoyable for a wider audience. But NOBODY was complaining about the saw so what reason would they nerf it?

Valid reasoning. I can't deny the total Rambo/Chuck Norris feel I get when I bust out my SAW. It is FUN.

I think, though it's pure speculation, that the changes are being made for a few reasons:

1. You're right in that the game does lack the traditional MMO aspects making a change like this feel kind of pointless. However, that lack of an MMO feel has been a criticism for awhile now. We know they've stated they're tweaking a lot of the social aspects going forward so maybe they're making changes to coincide with this?

2. They've laid out plans to overhaul the reward and contribution system for Arkfalls. Perhaps they're looking to "level the field" a bit? If this is the case, I would expect a few other things to be adjusted as well. Namely Wolfhounds, which I would be sad about, but understand.

I believe that they have a plan in mind larger than just "nerfing the hell out of everyone's favorite weapon. And honestly, until we see the actual change, it's mostly an empty debate. For all we know the change is simply dropping base damage down 5%. Everyone is assuming that they're just going to nerf it into the ground when we really have no concrete numbers on what they're going to do exactly. Which is why, while I agree with it needing nerfed, I support everyone voicing their thoughts on it to let the devs know how they feel. And trying to get a conversation started that's more than just "Don't nerf my gun!!!"

But I can't blame people for jumping to the worst possible scenarios. They've made changes in the past to things that I feel were a bit much more than was called for even if I do admit change was needed.

[Sdric]

Maybe this explanation helps you to understand the reasoning of those players who're against the nerf.
It's less because of the SAW being powerful, but most of the alternatives being absolutely no fun to use.

The point is ARs and LMGs suffer from bad design.
A zoomed Assault Rifle is less accurate than an unzoomed SMG.
SMGs are fine, they coul maybe need a small range advantage over shotguns (not much, maybe +4 Falloff damage) but in comparison to Sniper Rifles, Shotguns, Grenade Launchers and Infectors they do their job.

Assault Rifles are normally the medium-long range precision weapons.
LMGs are the body-shot medium range weapons.

However, at 15m an enemy head is about 1/8th of an AR's crosshair.
At their current state AR's simply can't fullfill their alloted role.
Not to mention the huge Falloff damage that makes an FRC AR take 30 bullets to down a Rhino at 30m.

LMGs whatover don't fullfil their roles either.
Disruptors are designed as bullet sprayers, however - they have bursts that totally don't fit this design.
With the nerf of Nano effects there really has to be an increase in fire rate AND pure damage to make this weapon worth using.

Rockers are not that far off, however - their crosshair doesn't seem to match their accuray, I've noticed many times that I miss an enemy right in the middle of my crosshair.
Bullet grouping has to be rethought.
Again this weapon is not working as intended.

Last but not least the Thunder LMG.
An LMG that is designed to be an accurate bullet sprayer.
Sadly it feels like sprinkling with warm, enjoyable water.
The crit multiplier is so incredibly low (1.2) that you can't even take advantage of the accuracy.
When I see a player pointing a Thunder LMG at me I turn around and 1-shot him with my Sniper Rifle.
This weapon requires at least a 15% greater magazine and 30% more bullet damage.


In short
Not all weapons have to be buffed.
But 3 LMGs (Disruptor,Thunder, Rocker) and 3 Assault Rifles (TACC, Blast, FRC AR) are simply weak.
While saying "Two hole classes need buffs!" - seems to be quite a lot.
But most other classes are ~ in line, those 2 have simply flawed realizations of their design idea.
Just because the SAW is working as it should be doesn't mean it has to be brought down.
Nerfing the SAW will make people change their weapons.
But to none of those listed above.

[fang1192]

Because of PvP. Again.

I want to punch you. Repeatedly.

[Jakesnake5]

Saws OP? You have GOT to be kidding!

My weapons of choice: VBI TACC Autopistol, VBI HP-6 Wolfhound. Why? Headshots, boys, headshots. I can get more crits with a pistol than a saw anyday (cept when overcharged, but I use other EGO powers).

[SpiritumLiberum]

Disclaimer:

I'm EGO 4994 (Grinding out 2 levels of BMGs to get to 5k)
Every load out I have, except PVP, includes a SAW. 1 load out is for dual SAWs.

The second sentence right there is why I'm ok with the nerf. There is almost no situation in the game that you're not better off with a SAW.

Wanna top an Arkfall? Use a SAW
Wanna own that co op? Use a SAW
Volge tearing you a new one? Use a SAW
That huge horde of afflicted at the siege? Use a SAW
Getting your butt handed to you in PVP? Well, a SAW probably isn't going to help. You're on your own there

REAL reasons I've seen posted against the nerf:

- I am definitely not stoked about a SAW nerf. Yes, it might be a crutch, but I like erasing raiders with one burst, and taking out a Volge Trooper with a long overcharged burst. I tried to do a Volge emergency with a Mazu Blast Rifle the other day and it was hopeless.

- Please don't nerf my saws as i have invested a lot of time acquiring and modding them. If you nerf saws, many players will die/extract more

- Come on Devs the SAWs are the only lmgs that people use in this game.

- Are you kidding me trion what you apparently do not realize that there is a reason for guns like the Frc saw. It is not bad to have guns that have a clear advantage over others. Because not all things need to be even with any MMO there needs to be guns like the saw that have clear advantage over others if everything becomes even then whats the point of even playing this game. We try to get the best equipment we possibly can and enjoy our selves if I can't have something that's better then others I quite and switch to diablo 3. And if I can't consistently prock my tachmag it is rendered useless.

That's just a small sampling from the first 10 pages. There's plenty more. The majority of the complaints come down to people knowing the weapon is OP but not wanting it changed. Which is understandable, but not necessarily correct.

The other LMGs don't suck, except the Disruptor. That thing is truly worthless. I enjoyed using the the Rocker and Thunder...until I found my first SAW. After that, there was no going back. It's not that the others suck. They simply suck compared to the SAW, because it is vastly superior. (AGAIN - the Disruptor is an exception, it SUCKS). You can say it's lazy to change one instead of balancing the others. But the simple truth is that when one of many is "out of whack", the problem is with that one, not with the others.

Players don't want their favorite weapons nerfed, but fail to realize that it's their favorite weapon because it drastically outperforms everything else. Players want OP.

This one is my favorite though:

- Wow do the devs actually listen to the community or play the game. Instead of nerfing the saw how about buffing the other useless lmgs or how about making the smgs a more viable option or nerfing the infectors or you could finally do something about the courier sawed off shotguns they are way overpowered my god they out damage the rocket and grenade launchers

Basically I can surmise this from the post above:

Player DOES use a SAW and believes buffing other weapons to match it is ok
Player does NOT use a Courier and believes nerfing it instead of buffing other weapons to match it is ok (ironic too, considering the post they're replying to specifically states a buff to RL damage to bring them in line)

Devs are not some evil group of people looking to take all enjoyment out of the game. They're looking at statistics and numbers that we never get to see and adjusting things to fit with their vision of how they want the game to be. I'm not saying they always get it right. The shotgun changes are proof of that. Sometimes the nerfs seem to be "knee-jerk" reactions to situations instead of well thought out balance changes. But changes need to be made.

I'm also not advocating NOT voicing your thoughts on the subject, whatever they may be. If you're unhappy with the change, by all means, let them know. They need to hear from players. But I am asking to make sure you're looking at the situation objectively.

Do you think the nerf is wrong because you truly feel like the SAW is good where it's at and all others need to be buffed to it's level? Say so and give some contructive criticism/suggestions on how to go about this.

Or do you feel the nerf is wrong because you just spent 1.5 mil on an orange SAW because it's the single most powerful weapon in a game that is obviously striving to be gear-neutral?

TLDR:

SAWs are OP, Thunders and Rockers are fine, Disruptors suck

I still top Co-ops and arkfalls with just an smg.

[Combo Breaker]

This would probably be better if more info was given. This is the failure of Trion to give reasonable information.
We are going to nerf this on some unknown date is some pretty horrible info. It feels like they were looking to bump forum activity.

[Sgt Baltimore]

My concern is the way trion worded it. When they say they are gonna bring it down to the other lmgs level, to me that means way more than a 5% dmg reduction. As far as I'm concerned the other lmgs suck. The vbi lmgs could be easily fixed with a crit mult increase seeing how they are more accurate. But the disruptor needs a complete overhaul or to be removed from the game completely

[Sgt Baltimore]

I still top Co-ops and arkfalls with just an smg.

Lol must be playing with noobs, what system u on?