Why are people mad they fixed strain reducers?

[Indra Echo]

IMO they do need to have open discussions for balancing weapons. Hell people were so adamant about shotguns getting nerfed that they could care less about the overall effectiveness in pve. This is my problem for nerfs that stem from pvp because usually a good majority of the people who are for the nerf don't want the weapon to be fair they want it brough ALL THE WAY INTO THE GROUND.

Not true. People that want weapons nerfed often want them to be because they see that all anyone is ever using is that weapon. It becomes ridiculous. I'm not saying that nerfing is the answer in all cases, because I don't think it is. I think balance isn't about just down-grading a weapon. I think it can be about taking an overall look at things that work in conjunction. The problem with shotguns (hasn't changed) is the shottie/cloak thing that allows for an instant kill. It's Shadow Strike I think, so that someone can camp cloaked with a shotgun (or any powerful weapon), shoot, and kill without warning. It was made worse with the infinite cloak glitch. Since the perk is supposed to only work while cloaked and shooting is supposed to bring you out of cloak, the use was supposed to be more limited. But people were using it without a cooldown. To be perfectly honest since all of this is still happening the shotgun nerfing didn't do anything to address this-it just caused some people to stop because the shotgun they liked wasn't as good as before for general use. Other people just use other shotguns.

Sure, there is a counter with Decoy. But I've seen it in other games and had other players argue about this issue. The game devolves into 1 or 2 builds out of the thousands of combinations available. Usually it takes longer than a month for this to happen. In this game apparently people came out of beta testing and were already using the shotgun/cloak almost exclusively.

I do think that it's completely reasonable to take all things into consideration. If you have people paying millions in scrip for a weapon, and see that quite often in PvP matches, only one combination is being used AND people are complaining, it becomes obvious something is happening. In order to "fix" what seems to be the problem devs must often do the least damage (coding wise) they can to the game. Nerfing one weapon and not just doing it for PvP might have the least effect on the rest of the game.

And I don't think it's necessarily the best thing. It would be better if all weapons had great features and offsetting ones. For instance, it might make more sense to have some sort of perk that allows players to evade Infectors' auto-homing function. But some would say cloak does, but it doesn't. I'd like a perk that really does have a defensive adjunct not the weak buffs that there are now. I'd also like it if Immunizers had a cool down function (yes, that's a nerf) or if they actually required good aim, dead on aim and not just random firing. They're suggestions but they might be far harder to do, less popular, and do some damage to the rest of the game or create bugs.

[Indra Echo]

Biggest thing for me is finding a new counter to Cloakers and BHing BMGers.

I have been able to use my Tachmag Poop Shoes to ground the BHers, but after the Nano nerf, I am wondering what to do.

For the Cloakers, I am thinking Bio nade for DM maps and maybe Sludge RL for FY...

What's amazing to me is that a weapon that is so weak in PvE is so powerful in PvP. I tend to like to slam them with my Poop shoes Northstar Flare. And it does work well for the bunny hoppers.

The latest thing is the Bonfire bunny hoppers-this is at the core of the problem as I see it and why we will undergo some rather constant nerfing and buffing of weapons. Physics are not "real" in the game. The only thing that suffers from real world physics is the mini-gun found at emergencies and in hotshots. And that makes no sense.

In order for it to be more real, then guns shouldn't just take longer to load or have limited mags or whatever, but they should feel more real. I don't think this will ever happen, but pistols should be light and faster to wield, point, and shoot. SAWs should be heavier, take longer to point, and inhibit your ability to move fast. LMGs of other types should allow you to do things more quickly than the SAW. Shotguns should also be a slower use weapon and slower reloading. Rocket Launchers should be really powerful but more difficult to use.

Bigger weapons should feel like they are. Smaller ones should range from pea shooters (like powerful bb guns with lots of ammo) to the Magnums with the recoil of a Magnum (seriously, ever shoot one).

As for the more fictional weapons there should be some sort of "real" upsides and downsides. And PvP changes should be different from PvE, in my opinion.

[Tyger]

Biggest thing for me is finding a new counter to Cloakers and BHing BMGers.

I have been able to use my Tachmag Poop Shoes to ground the BHers, but after the Nano nerf, I am wondering what to do.

For the Cloakers, I am thinking Bio nade for DM maps and maybe Sludge RL for FY...

I would say Sludge-toob with a + to rounds that way you can lay out a decent carpet of poo in an area with 3 or so shots and not wait for the 25+ second or so timer on your nade.

[Tekrunner]

Biggest thing for me is finding a new counter to Cloakers and BHing BMGers.

I have been able to use my Tachmag Poop Shoes to ground the BHers, but after the Nano nerf, I am wondering what to do.

For the Cloakers, I am thinking Bio nade for DM maps and maybe Sludge RL for FY...

I don't see how the change to nano effects is going to reduce the effectiveness of a sludge tachmag pulser. You don't need to proc sludge more than once per 1.5 seconds.

For cloakers, I still stand by my previous statements that a big boomer is very efficient. Big blast area = great to uncover enemies.

[Gomly]

As i've said in every single forum for every single game with any form PvP ....

Even if you gave everyone a level 1 stick that did 1 damage per hit you would still have some tools whining that someone else's stick is more OP than theirs.

[Indra Echo]

I don't see how the change to nano effects is going to reduce the effectiveness of a sludge tachmag pulser. You don't need to proc sludge more than once per 1.5 seconds.

For cloakers, I still stand by my previous statements that a big boomer is very efficient. Big blast area = great to uncover enemies.

You can also spray the area with a SAW or use any fire weapon-that can be fun. But Cloak in PvP is mostly broken. It doesn't work the same as in PvE and seems to be either still exploitable or makes use of slow graphic rendering. Some people do have infinite cloak. I've seen it or well, not seen them. They should at least temporarily come out of cloak when getting ammo (but some don't), shooting (but some don't), being shot (but some don't), or at some point in the game (but I've seen whole teams that don't ever). There are people that never show up on the map, never drop cloak no matter what, can even hop on a vehicle and remain cloaked (never works for me) and more. I'm not going to say they're cheating but it does need to be fixed. As well, some players (me) do become partly visible when they move under cloak, others do not at all.


The truth is that in PvP cloak is being used as the new way to camp. In CoD games most often unless there's a UAV up or someone is using the right perk, opposing players don't show up on the mini-map so they can camp in corners. People use cloak in Defiance to do that and then they also use it to one hit kill others.

[Maitreakow]

I don't see how the change to nano effects is going to reduce the effectiveness of a sludge tachmag pulser. You don't need to proc sludge more than once per 1.5 seconds.

For cloakers, I still stand by my previous statements that a big boomer is very efficient. Big blast area = great to uncover enemies.

The issue comes when they roll 2-3 times then go right back to BHing. Currently I can keep hitting them while they roll, replenishing the Poop Shoes. After the Nano nerf I am not sure that I will be able to kill them before the poop shoes wears off, especially since most PvPers run with Thick Skin, regen, and a regen shield. I will have to wait and see I guess.

[Indra Echo]

As i've said in every single forum for every single game with any form PvP ....

Even if you gave everyone a level 1 stick that did 1 damage per hit you would still have some tools whining that someone else's stick is more OP than theirs.

Please. I've actually played other games where players could customize PvP, so you could create melee only matches. I never heard anyone complain or rage quit. People were laughing.

The thing here is people are in denial because they don't want their pet weapons nerfed. We can agree that random nerfing may not be the best solution but don't tell me that doesn't point to some weapons being OPed, or to be more precise, more powerful in some ways so people perceive they're better.

I am realistic about this and people need to be honest. Why else would someone spend 4 million scrip for a weapon? Duh. It's not so they can shoot Raiders. There's nothing in PvE that requires super powerful weapons.

And people are not paying lots o' money (even real money) for weapons that do 40 damage. They don't want to pay (right now) even 30k for RLs and the complaint is always that RLs are under-powered.

The argument is in PvP you need skills to be top dog. And that, instead of whining about cheating or OPed weapons people need to get some skills. That means it's supposedly not about powerful ultra-rare weapons, right? So, what does it matter if a weapon gets nerfed-it's about skills.

Except we all know it isn't all about skills. It's about having that ultra-rare powerful super weapon and not wanting it to be any less powerful. Clearly it should be obvious just what sort of hierarchy this creates.

In other games at the very least everyone can most often obtain the exact same powerful weapon. If I don't like RPGs in CoD well at least I can get and use the exact same weapon myself. I really have no right to complain-the playing field is equal technically based upon weapons we can all use.

In this game, most weapons are fairly equal except there are ultra-rares that are way more powerful and some rares that are also extremely powerful, not per shot but based on their total effects.

Immunizers had no downside to their usage and no real counter unless used up close, but that wasn't their intended use and it's just not how they are used. They're used at sniper range, created instant blindness, have no need to be aimed expertly, have homing effect, repeat bug damage, and more. Top that off with a mistake in the game that made them fully auto, add on the right mods, and maybe use cloak and PvP became a joke.

People cannot ever assert they are not OPed. It's also a mistake to have any game devolve this quickly into mainly one or two builds. It doesn't add up to fun. And people need to get over themselves with this "whiners gonna whine". Sometimes, where there's smoke there's fire. And if PvP is about skills then no nerf should threaten those who claim they don't whine.

[alienstookmybeer]

I'd imagine people will be mad too if they ever fix Controlled Burst mods.

[Indra Echo]

I'd imagine people will be mad too if they ever fix Controlled Burst mods.

Yep, I had that exact "conversation" with one guy who was complaining that it would be fixed. I said he knew it was a bug so using the mod was taking a chance. He was angry that it would make the gun less powerful (where's your skills, guy), and less valuable (whatever that means with virtual items).

This is a game and playing PvP that is just Immunizers for all is no fun. I like mindless gaming as much as the next person, but really after awhile even I need something more than this.


If that's what people want then I sincerely hope Trion will let people create custom games that force people to use only certain weapons in them and that everyone gets the exact same weapon and can access the exact same perks, tournament style.