Dev Update: Changing damage reduction - update!

[Vikingkid3]

Pay attention to what they posted.

"We also want to extend out thanks to folks in the community who worked with us to point out these exploits and were integral in our efforts of fixing this problem. Thank you for your time and your patience."

Where did any players make any reports about things like this in pve? you won't find any. Where were the complaints centered? pvp. When did this fix get mentioned? literally right after they made a stupid statement on the live stream and then got called out for it and made themselves look bad on both the forum and the live stream.




Glitched guns have nothing to do with this, so why are you bringing it up? Trion says a lot of things, flip flops on their statements at the drop of a hat, makes terrible design choices and their track record with balancing has been terrible. Giving them the benefit of the doubt is extremely naive. This announcement was literally on the eve of the live stream discussion of the perm-invulnerability in pvp, to think this doesn't have anything to do with pvp with how they've continued to handle things in this game is astonishing.

I would be surprised if there was a complaint or report about the invulnerability in PvE, I have never checked. I just assumed as much if they noticed that it was possible and that people were doing it (probably youtube videos, but searching for those seems to be an extra effort on their part). And I wouldn't say, in that regard alone, they had a bad idea. It was just an over correction. There shouldn't be any circumstance where a player is invulnerable unless it is specifically implemented as a game mechanic. In a game like this, where level progression doesn't necessarily make the gameplay any easier, allowing people to manipulate gameplay mechanics to become invulnerable doesn't add to the experience. Nor does it promote a variety of play styles and loadouts which this game has great potential for.

As far as giving them the benefit of the doubt, I should have included some sort of /sarcasm note. I do not believe they understand the issues in PvP, so this "fix" did intend to resolve the PvP issues. However, if you do understand the PvP problems, unless they are very lucky and unintentionally fix them, this "fix" will not resolve the PvP issues. I brought up glitched guns, because from all the testing I've seen people do, and from my own observations and testing, there is a certain bonus on VOT Pulsars, that when combined with either perks or shields or something else, on shield break the damage reduction skyrockets beyond normally attainable levels and lasts for 3x as long as it should (Thick Skin lasts 3 seconds, they have the same Thick Skin+ damage reduction for 9 seconds). I say VOT Pulsars because every single person I've seen with the bug uses a VOT Pulsar (I would guess with the same bonus), and their perk/shield loadouts vary.

This thread discusses that connection in length:
http://forums.defiance.com/showthrea...istance-Really

My whole point was that, based on Trion's viewpoints, this fix is wholly intended to fix all damage reduction problems in both PvE and PvP, neither is more favored. The reality may be very different. But, blaming one group's complaints over another's is pointless and serves no purpose. Either way, the change in itself is a horrible idea.

[Donnyrides]

If the game never had PvP in it, why would anybody care about players finding ways to use the tools on hand to make themselves invulnerable to attack for a short period of time? Do the Scrappers, Volge, Hellbugs, etc.. have their own forum and post complaints that they can't kill the humans playing the game?

This is all coming down because of complaints from the PvP side. I know Trion makes numerous fumbles, but they would never be crazy enough to come out and say "This is because of PvP"

either way, this game had it's day in the sun and now that has past. I kick myself for getting the season pass. I feel like I'm tied to this game now until I play all of the DLC.

[Dracian]

Once again Trion has screwed something up in pve because of pvp.

The fact that the whiners from pvp get heard while everyone else who has valid points get ignored is just plain stupid.

I have seen too many things ruined for PVE because of PVP. [...] I am so sick and tired of perfectly good game mechanics getting nerfed because 1.) PVP whiners

Trion just remove PvP from the game and undo all past nerfs made to weapons.

Are you actually going to sit here and try to claim that this isn't because of pvp? HAHAHA.

Virtually no one gives a rat's *** about PVP.
A tiny, tiny sub-sect of the game is PVP.
Yet their whining repeatedly affects the majority's game as Trion adjusts to the incessant whine.
It damages the real game and their whine shall not cease.

Where did any players make any reports about things like this in pve? you won't find any. Where were the complaints centered? pvp. When did this fix get mentioned? literally right after they made a stupid statement on the live stream and then got called out for it and made themselves look bad on both the forum and the live stream.

I think some people here really need to take a deep breath and calm down a little bit.



First, and I'll write it in BBB (Big Black Bold) letters to be sure :

PVP players never asked DR sources to be non-cumulative

We have reported that, when a particular weapon with a particular bonus and a particular perks were used together, players could become completely invulnerable. One weapon. One bonus. One Perk. Nothing to do with any kind of cumulative bonus.



Second : people complain that PvE is ruined because of PvP. More precisely because PvE and PvP are not separated modes with specific rules to PvE and other for PvP. In other words, if something affects PvP, it also affects PvE. But, since both modes are following the same rules, it is also true that something affecting PvE will also affect PvP. Thus, PvE is ruined because of PvP and PvP is ruined because of PvE. Ergo PvE is ruined by PvE and PvP is ruined by PvP.

Point is : you think only PvE players are pissed off by that change ? Well, Breaking News, PvP players are too. PvE players are not the only one who play highly defensive builds. In PvP, this is almost required if you want to survive long enough to have a positive K/D ratio.



Third, PvP has ruined nothing. Trion did. I'm ready to bet a thousand bucks that they have laughed hard when they have read the comments of that thread... Ever heard of the saying : 'Divide and rule' or 'Divide and conquer' ? Well that's it. As long as the PvE majority brags and whines agains the PvP minority, Trion is safe and nobody even think of criticizing what will stay in Defiance's annals as one of the worst handled problem in the game. Ever.



Now, all you PvE guys can keep on bragging and whining on PvPers, that we are the cause of all the disasters that happened in the game, that we are the only ones to be heard and that the only thing we do well is whining. Yes you can.

Or you can open your eyes, stop being dumb and throw all your hate at the true responsible's face.

It's your choice.

[Synead]

I think some people here really need to take a deep breath and calm down a little bit.



First, and I'll write it in BBB (Big Black Bold) letters to be sure :

PVP players never asked DR sources to be non-cumulative

We have reported that, when a particular weapon with a particular bonus and a particular perks were used together, players could become completely invulnerable. One weapon. One bonus. One Perk. Nothing to do with any kind of cumulative bonus.



Second : people complain that PvE is ruined because of PvP. More precisely because PvE and PvP are not separated modes with specific rules to PvE and other for PvP. In other words, if something affects PvP, it also affects PvE. But, since both modes are following the same rules, it is also true that something affecting PvE will also affect PvP. Thus, PvE is ruined because of PvP and PvP is ruined because of PvE. Ergo PvE is ruined by PvE and PvP is ruined by PvP.

Point is : you think only PvE players are pissed off by that change ? Well, Breaking News, PvP players are too. PvE players are not the only one who play highly defensive builds. In PvP, this is almost required if you want to survive long enough to have a positive K/D ratio.



Third, PvP has ruined nothing. Trion did. I'm ready to bet a thousand bucks that they have laughed hard when they have read the comments of that thread... Ever heard of the saying : 'Divide and rule' or 'Divide and conquer' ? Well that's it. As long as the PvE majority brags and whines agains the PvP minority, Trion is safe and nobody even think of criticizing what will stay in Defiance's annals as one of the worst handled problem in the game. Ever.



Now, all you PvE guys can keep on bragging and whining on PvPers, that we are the cause of all the disasters that happened in the game, that we are the only ones to be heard and that the only thing we do well is whining. Yes you can.

Or you can open your eyes, stop being dumb and throw all your hate at the true responsible's face.

It's your choice.

+10000000000² to this!

[Cavadus]

Thanks for pointing that out, Dracian. PvEers are quick to blame PvPers but all we ever asked for was that the one particular combo with the glitched shield be fixed. We never asked for anything else; just a bug fix.

And the precise example Trick gave about abuse of said exploit was using the exploit during the Motherlode boss. Before people QQ about us PvPers I urge you to actually go to the PvP forum and read the stuff we post. We very rarely complain about anything and when we do it's usually a pretty big deal (i.e. complete and total invulnerability derived from a bugged shield/weapon/perk combo).

All in all I'd say we PvPers have very little to complain about other than a general lack of more interesting PvP stuff. I'm happy enough with the balance of things as it sits right now.

It's very disconcerting to read so much negativity about the PvP crowd from the PvEers when they know virtually nothing about what we want, like, talk about, et cetera. I suggest people inform themselves before crying about PvPers. Go to the PvP forum and read some of our threads.

[DhogonX]

I really don't see the big deal on the DR being changed, because its just changing them from stacking all at once and go with the highest (what is does already pretty much). Take Thick Skin for example: "Takes half damage when shield breaks" for 3 sec (lets assume half damage is 50%) but on a 15 sec cooldown. Detachment kicks in for a kill that's made. Cellular Armor active all times.

Kill a enemy/shields up: Detachment overrides Cellular Armor (TS only work if shields break)
Not killing/shields up: Cellular Armor is working (Detach only work if you kill something)
Shields down/kill a enemy: Thick Skin kicks in for 3 sec (then goes on a 15 sec CD)
Shields down/kill a enemy/TS on cooldown: Detachment kicks in

With all that said I don't really see the problem because TS cooldown anyway and is situational only if your shields break, again assuming TS means 50% + CA which is active all times, just means TS and CA will not stack and just take the 50% until the 3 sec then CA comes back in. Kill a enemy with shields down we'd be arguing over 3 sec and a few percent, and further more if you're killing, stacked DR is not missed.

Can someone correct me plz

[Vikingkid3]

I really don't see the big deal on the DR being changed, because its just changing them from stacking all at once and go with the highest (what is does already pretty much). Take Thick Skin for example: "Takes half damage when shield breaks" for 3 sec (lets assume half damage is 50%) but on a 15 sec cooldown. Detachment kicks in for a kill that's made. Cellular Armor active all times.

Kill a enemy/shields up: Detachment overrides Cellular Armor (TS only work if shields break)
Not killing/shields up: Cellular Armor is working (Detach only work if you kill something)
Shields down/kill a enemy: Thick Skin kicks in for 3 sec (then goes on a 15 sec CD)
Shields down/kill a enemy/TS on cooldown: Detachment kicks in

With all that said I don't really see the problem because TS cooldown anyway and is situational only if your shields break, again assuming TS means 50% + CA which is active all times, just means TS and CA will not stack and just take the 50% until the 3 sec then CA comes back in. Kill a enemy with shields down we'd be arguing over 3 sec and a few percent, and further more if you're killing, stacked DR is not missed.

Can someone correct me plz

In PvP, the current setup with additive damage reduction, tends to favor more skilled players. If you are protecting a point, alone, and it is assaulted by multiple people, the more people you kill and the longer you stay alive the greater your chances of survival. If you are running Cellular Armor, Detachment, Kill or Be Killed, Rear Guard and Thick Skin, your damage reduction adds up to a significant amount. If you are a skilled player that can be just what you need to survive the onslaught and protect the point (if you are not skilled you will likely die much quicker).

In PvE, I'm guessing (as I've never ran with a defensive perk in my PvE builds) that those who rely on defense in order to survive confrontations with adds will no longer have their defenses, to the point that they need, and are more likely to die.

Either way, on it's face, I also do not think the change is that bad. In PvP, all the seasoned players use, basically, the same perk loadout, this might switch things up and allow for more unique builds. It will take time to get used to however, and it may raise the skill ceiling a little bit. As for PvE it'll just make it a little harder for those that rely on defensive perks.

However, I believe the controversy comes because PvPers complained about a problem with Glitches caused by a weapon and possibly a shield/perk. Never has anyone in the PvP community complained about damage reduction when it is functioning, on our end there was nothing wrong with it (the glitched players were the only ones capable of receiving anything near invulnerability). There were simply a few bugs that gave people unfair advantages when exploited. The PvE community then cries out that this change is entirely a result of the PvP community's gripes and will hurt PvE. According to what Trick said, neither is the sole cause. Yet this change doesn't address one group's issues (PvP) and over corrects the other group's issues (PvE).

From a PvPers perspective this change is a horrible idea because the players that have been causing all the problems will be put into a better position than they are now. They still have a glitched gun, couple that gun with thick skin and cellular armor and they have been able to reach levels of damage reduction, 95%+, that are unattainable through legitimate means (invulnerability would come if they were being shot in the back and have rear guard). This change will simply mean that they have 89%+ damage reduction when their glitch activates and cannot become invulnerable. Meanwhile, everyone else cannot achieve greater than 50%, and that only lasts 3 seconds. Thus this change benefits the players that exploit bugs and hurts legitimate players.

[Arsenic_Touch]

Surprise surprise, looks like Trion is back peddling.

Update about this change’s timing: In the interest of improving the quality of the damage reduction update, we are going to need to delay it until our next code patch. Without a code update, the damage numbers displayed when fighting another player would be inaccurate to the damage done. This would cause players to see damage done to opponents then see it quickly restore as the damage difference was transmitted from the server. By waiting until we can update the reported damage functionality, we are preventing confusion once the damage reduction update goes live. Thanks – and we will let you know when that patch is coming!

[Sanguinesun]

Surprise surprise, looks like Trion is back peddling.

Just another week of the soap opera.

[DhogonX]

This change will simply mean that they have 89%+ damage reduction when their glitch activates and cannot become invulnerable. Meanwhile, everyone else cannot achieve greater than 50%, and that only lasts 3 seconds. Thus this change benefits the players that exploit bugs and hurts legitimate players.

Ok I understand now, thanks for clearing that up for me. I never knew they worked simultaneous, because most games stats are non-cumulative.