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  1. #1
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    Pay to win, a definition

    Here is the run down, pay to win refers to a model of game wherein a player may circumvent hours or days of farming or grinding in order to get something earlier than they would have done without grinding. It also refers to getting something of a higher quality or ability than they would have been able to without paying.

    Now onto a hypothetical story based upon the proposed changes made by trion in the upcoming F2P change:

    Person X and Y has had the game since release, person W and Z just got the game as a f2p.

    Person X and Y have a little arkforge given to them for buying the game, they have spent most of it getting their existing guns up to par, they decide that their double crit wolfie (blue) needs to be upgraded to an OJ:
    - person X chooses to spend a week farming and grinding to get enough arkforge to increase the gun to OJ...
    - person Y chooses to simply Pay to get more arkforge, and thus level up that wolfie to OJ without grinding., and gets it a week earlier.
    This is Pay to win

    Person W and Z both have just gotten the game, both have limited inventory and limited max keys, both want to open lock boxes with the best chance of getting good quality guns:
    - Person W decides that they can ill afford to buy a max key code increase, and so has to settle for 2 teir 3 boxes, thus on average only recieves 2 blues and a bunch of greens (this leads to the above situation again).
    - Person Z however, Buys the extra keycode limit, this allows them to get a teir 4 box, thus on average gets them at least 4 blues, but a good chance at some purples.
    This is Pay to Win.

    There are Many examples of how this new system is going to be Pay to Win.

    However, here is the biggest example of Pay to Win.

    Mr T decides he doesnt want to grind and try and get OJ guns, Mr T decides he would rather get OJs by paying for them... so he buys several Legendary Gun Boxes (I know they are temporarily gone, but go with me on this)... Mr T pitties the fool who doesnt see this as a perfect example of Pay To Win.

    Trion has said defiance would never be a pay to win... I think you see where this is going...

    Defiance is, and always will be from the 15th onwards, Pay To Win.

    I would love to see an explanation as to why this is not the case... maybe I am too old and set in my ways, maybe I misunderstand the games industry (of which I have been an indie developer in it since the 1980s), but this is how it looks to me.

  2. #2
    Eh defiance has been p2w for a while now.
    The trick with p2w is that you can't admit you're pay to win, so you have to make up euphenisms.
    Like, paying is not needed to fully enjoy the game(that is if you enjoy terribly long grinds).

  3. #3
    No.
    Pay to win is buying otherwise unobtainable benefit.

    Inventory space, booster for scrip, salvage, loot does not count. Buying "gold ammo" such as +30 per. dmg output for an hour or always crit for an hour is "pay to win".

    Beside Pay to win is really important only in pure PvP games. In PvE it does not matter. If Defiance had any kind of player driven economy that would make PvE income part of PvP, competing on market, however it does not so it is not.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandur View Post
    Eh defiance has been p2w for a while now.
    The trick with p2w is that you can't admit you're pay to win, so you have to make up euphenisms.
    Like, paying is not needed to fully enjoy the game(that is if you enjoy terribly long grinds).
    I agree whole heartedly, but its so painfully obvious that defiance is and always was going to be, that trion should just come out and admit it. There is NOTHING in this model that they have built for us that isnt pay to win, except reputation... and I give that a month before you can buy that too.

    Trion have lost soooo much repect from us Indie devs, not that they care. Its a sad state of affairs when the "creative" accountants make all the gameplay and game direction choices in the games industry. When I started writing my first games back on the commadore 64 and amstrad home pc, the games industry (if it could be called that) was about making games for fun first, then for profit second. Profit has taken over, fun is a by product that seems unwelcomed in games nowadays, look at the Muir vehicle glitch - "we cant have people enjoying a glitch that harms NO-ONE... Fix It Now!".. dont fix the problems or issues that the game has, just fix the things that are inconsiquental, or affect profits, Nothing else... grrrrr!

    when they came out and said they were "bucking the trend" of pay to win, I was so happy, I preordered the game right then and there. I was naive, I see that now. It was only a few months later that Rift went f2p.. I thought that was bad...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeisdead View Post
    No.
    Pay to win is buying otherwise unobtainable benefit.

    Inventory space, booster for scrip, salvage, loot does not count. Buying "gold ammo" such as +30 per. dmg output for an hour or always crit for an hour is "pay to win".

    Beside Pay to win is really important only in pure PvP games. In PvE it does not matter. If Defiance had any kind of player driven economy that would make PvE income part of PvP, competing on market, however it does not so it is not.
    Defiance may be mostly PvE, but even this has a PvP element... Leaderboards. How do you get high on the leaderboards? Use the best equipment... how do you get the best equipement? Buy it. Therefore BUY to WIN. Not to mention the pure PvP side... lets face it, if you currently dont have a zagger you will be aware of how easy it is for people with them to kill people without them... this was only available through a PAID dlc... pay to win... sorry, defiance is Pay To Win.

  6. #6
    that is true it has leader-boards but they are mostly pointless. As for DLCs bringing new better weapons you may have a point there if you are working from the subset of competing against other player in any "relevant" action in game which will provide some further benefit, which again it does not provide any further benefit.

    On the other hand DLC users, season pass holders etc. look at it from different perspective and that is that they got not enough stuff for their money.

    I do not use zagger and i have season pass, but i do not care that i lose, i am realist there are bound to be better players around even if i had the best gear available.
    * If i had slow rig and bad internet connection i would experience much more difficulty to play, but asking Devs to slow down the game for others and make it basically un-playable to the level i would experience in this hypothesis would be reasonable from the "competition" stand point but otherwise it will not. Therefore buying a better rig and internet connection is pay to win.

    Shaya pay to win
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeisdead View Post
    that is true it has leader-boards but they are mostly pointless.
    Everyone has his own definition of P2W and what's acceptable and that's fine.

    Just wanted to interject here, leaderboards may be pointless, your score is not though.
    The reward you get from it is directly linked to your score, so more power = more loot/currency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeisdead View Post
    If i had slow rig and bad internet connection i would experience much more difficulty to play, but asking Devs to slow down the game for others and make it basically un-playable to the level i would experience in this hypothesis would be reasonable from the "competition" stand point but otherwise it will not. Therefore buying a better rig and internet connection is pay to win.
    That's a bit of a weird argumentation.
    The devs have no responsibility or say about your internet connection, they have all say on how the game works though.

  8. #8
    Yes you get reward based on your score, however in the end all you gonna get from it are RNG boxes. And stuff from those boxes gonna be sold to Vendor or in case of good OJ you gonna use it.

    And the best weapons for various "events" will not make you kill everything before anyone else. There are not three people with 600k score and rest with 5k.



    *Yep so buying an DLC is your option. Same as your internet connection.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeisdead View Post
    Yes you get reward based on your score, however in the end all you gonna get from it are RNG boxes. And stuff from those boxes gonna be sold to Vendor or in case of good OJ you gonna use it.

    And the best weapons for various "events" will not make you kill everything before anyone else. There are not three people with 600k score and rest with 5k.
    True but even 125k to 90k will add up over time, there is a notable power difference from someone that spend tons of money to get their set up right to someone who just grinds along.
    Just means the rich get richer.

    We prolly could argue about that forever, just have different definitions of pay to win.
    I can accept quite some pay to win in the games i play(I consider myself a realist :P), defiance slides really hard on the edge of acceptable for me right now though.

  10. #10
    Well let just say i play for about an month by now. Am at 5200+ EGO. Got mostly OJ gear, probably not best but good enough and apart of season pass i spent exactly nothing on this game. However i do quite well at incursions, sieges, major arkfalls, arkbreaks. Sure maybe i was lucky to get some nice drops from T3s and events and "special vendor boxes", but to point something out most of the OJs i got and did not use i just gave away. The difference is not that major. Sure if you go to WM and use infector and detonators well good for you i stay with my smg and gunslinger wolfhound. At incursions with afflicted i use detonator and LMG if you chose to use an wolfhound and bmg you will probably not do that well. (added just because i felt that original sentence lead nowhere so i made a point, probably bad one, my apology)

    And yes 300k vs 90k (in case of dark matter major arkfalls) is difference and yes it adds up. But in the end everyone will get there it is not that hard. Fact that you are not getting it here and now is no reason for Devs to change their "marketing" strategy.

    However the difference does not entirely comes out of your gear or your ability to play but again from rng in most cases. You die 2s before WM is killed you are screwed on score, you get cought by dark matter at the final shot on the mechanizer you are screwed, etc.

    As for the gaming industry being greedy, well of course they are. They are ruled by businessmen not by Developers who wants to develop fun games. Developer comes we want to do that, owner asks how much it will earn, developer answer well nothing it will just make game better, owner is confused.
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