Not a whining thread: Just would like to know something ...

[Warkaiser]

Wow, Nice to have so many reactions, although some feel a little hostile. Maybe some people understand me wrong. Im having fun with the game and i'm far from done with it. (not sure if thats correct English) But see it this way, im just concerned the game will be one of those games that are forgotten and become completely free to play and even pay to win because it's a failed project.

I have faith in the game, but all im saying is that there is still alot of work to be done to keep this game interresting. As for the "You don't know what makes an MMO" fellas. Ok maybe I can't compare it to WoW and games like that, but still, what is fun about my character if it only progresses slightly?

Thats one of the big differences between an RPG and other types of games, like shooters. An RPG is all about developing your character and his "skill". Your character's stats, equipment, etc determine what you are capable of. For example, no matter how good of a player YOU are, if your character doesnt have X amount of Armor and Hitpoints and have X amount of Strength, if you go and try to take on a boss designed for much higher level you will instantly get killed and will do little to no damage.

On the other hand a shooter is much less based on your character's "skill" and is more reliant on you the player. You dont need to have X of this and X of that just to meet some minimum requirement to be capable of doing something. Your stats only matter slightly. If you are a bad player (for example stand still while taking a bunch of fire and cant aim worth a damn) you will lose even in "good" gear. If you are a good player, you can own other people even with inferior gear / stats. Progression is there, but it is more about player progression not character progression. You learn to aim better, lead targets properly, time your grenade throws, learn how to safely get at targets behind cover, learn how to avoid being hit, etc. You the player do that. Not you the character in game suddenly becoming capable of doing those things because he reached some magic number that tells the game he can do it now.

Part of the problem though is that trying to combine the 2 doesnt work too well. Think of all the games youve played where one of the following happens:
1) Youre playing a shooter and you or someone else is very very good. Just kicking the crap out of everyone else nonstop. Then all the whining, accusing of hacks, etc start.
2) Youre playing an MMORPG and everyone whines because either a specific class is supposedly OP, or certain gear is supposedly OP. Then eventually crap gets nerfed, and usually just because people dont wont to work for the same gear or simply dont know how to counter certain classes.

SO if you were to combine a shooter like Defiance with vertical gear progression (big stat increases, etc like your typical MMORPG) you would end up with players who are very good and also have very good gear who completely destroy those who are not very good and also dont have good gear. It just doubles the gap in power created by either system alone and causes tons of imbalances, whining, and a dead game. Look at Darkfall as a perfect example. It relied on a decent amount of shooter / twitch skill, but was also quite gear dependent. End result: New players not sticking with the game because everyone else is not only more experienced and better at the game but also with much better equipment making it near impossible for them to win fights. Was made even worse by the amount of time / grind required to reach the same power as others.

Perhaps its because I began most of my online gaming back with some of the earlier online shooters and ran a clan for years across several of them before I really got into MMORPGs a little over a decade ago, but I highly prefer systems which rely more on my skill as a player than relying on character stats & gear.

[Elite_T91]

Thats one of the big differences between an RPG and other types of games, like shooters. An RPG is all about developing your character and his "skill". Your character's stats, equipment, etc determine what you are capable of. For example, no matter how good of a player YOU are, if your character doesnt have X amount of Armor and Hitpoints and have X amount of Strength, if you go and try to take on a boss designed for much higher level you will instantly get killed and will do little to no damage.

On the other hand a shooter is much less based on your character's "skill" and is more reliant on you the player. You dont need to have X of this and X of that just to meet some minimum requirement to be capable of doing something. Your stats only matter slightly. If you are a bad player (for example stand still while taking a bunch of fire and cant aim worth a damn) you will lose even in "good" gear. If you are a good player, you can own other people even with inferior gear / stats. Progression is there, but it is more about player progression not character progression. You learn to aim better, lead targets properly, time your grenade throws, learn how to safely get at targets behind cover, learn how to avoid being hit, etc. You the player do that. Not you the character in game suddenly becoming capable of doing those things because he reached some magic number that tells the game he can do it now.

Part of the problem though is that trying to combine the 2 doesnt work too well. Think of all the games youve played where one of the following happens:
1) Youre playing a shooter and you or someone else is very very good. Just kicking the crap out of everyone else nonstop. Then all the whining, accusing of hacks, etc start.
2) Youre playing an MMORPG and everyone whines because either a specific class is supposedly OP, or certain gear is supposedly OP. Then eventually crap gets nerfed, and usually just because people dont wont to work for the same gear or simply dont know how to counter certain classes.

SO if you were to combine a shooter like Defiance with vertical gear progression (big stat increases, etc like your typical MMORPG) you would end up with players who are very good and also have very good gear who completely destroy those who are not very good and also dont have good gear. It just doubles the gap in power created by either system alone and causes tons of imbalances, whining, and a dead game. Look at Darkfall as a perfect example. It relied on a decent amount of shooter / twitch skill, but was also quite gear dependent. End result: New players not sticking with the game because everyone else is not only more experienced and better at the game but also with much better equipment making it near impossible for them to win fights. Was made even worse by the amount of time / grind required to reach the same power as others.

Perhaps its because I began most of my online gaming back with some of the earlier online shooters and ran a clan for years across several of them before I really got into MMORPGs a little over a decade ago, but I highly prefer systems which rely more on my skill as a player than relying on character stats & gear.

Jhea that's true and probably annoying if Defiance went this road. Only CoD for example had very destictive perks, that allow players to really change their playstyle. Defiance has this in a very light form. Maybe I dont like the ego grid had maybe it has not enough perks. I dunno, the game just feels unfinished.

EDIT: Also, PvP is rubbish, so the imbalance wouldn't be any problem atm (I mean the extreme gear diffirences) Everybody just cloaks and shoots u in the back with a shotgun. There already things VERY OP and they just need to fix this asap.

[Thorbrand]

"This MMO has no social aspects, no trading, no char progression, no end game. Also loot isnt all that interresting. This is what makes an MMO."

Dead on up to that point! MMOs don't have end game (Any MMO that relies on Raiding for end game is a fail before it launches.) No char progression it is called total customization anyway you want it and I trade with people all the time. The social aspects is because gamers today don't want to be social and demand the ability to play solo to the end (Doesn't take a genius to see how that would kill the socialization in the game.)

[Hello301]

Yeah other than Arkfalls hasn't been a single mission that couldn't be done alone personally. We need a Defiance Leroy Jenkins. Something that has to be done with an actual team who focuses on strategy

[Mog]

Yeah other than Arkfalls hasn't been a single mission that couldn't be done alone personally. We need a Defiance Leroy Jenkins. Something that has to be done with an actual team who focuses on strategy

The game has Co-Op missions which = dungeon instances in other games.

There is team based PvP.

Yes there appears to be no raids but maybe they will add them.

The social interaction is abysmal for sure due to poorly implemented chat.

There is character progression and I am satisfied with it. There is loot and it fits the style of the game.

This game is a MMO by definition. It is not WoW or RIFT or SWTOR. Do not compare it to them. If Trion wanted to make this game like that they would have it. Defiance is a different style of MMO and one that is done in a style different then the mass majority of MMOs on the market. This does not mean its better or worse that is up to the player to decide.

In the end play it if you enjoy. If you don't then stop playing and maybe in the future do some better research before making the purchase to ensure the game will fit with you.

[PseudoCool]

I have to agree ENTIRELY with Warkaiser's post, he makes the best points there are, and things that we've discussed on the forums multiple times already.

If you have an "end game" in an MMO, it's generally a gear grind. Now, as much as I love to grind away at things and really pick up and apart the nuances of each mission/dungeon/instance/whatever, that also invariably leads to a HUGE problem: Gear becomes EVERYTHING. Some of the games previously mentioned (WoW, RIFT, SWTOR, and others) all have this system in place, and frankly it KILLS any community spirit. Why? Well.. gear does NOT make a player a good player. In SWTOR for instance, I've got a level 50 bounty hunter with pretty decent Orange gear that's all modded with the higher end mods. People look at me (since your appearance is gear based) and REFUSE to team with me for end game quests since I don't have the "proper gear". If they look at my stats, and loadouts, they see that I do INDEED have the proper gear, I've just slotted it in other outfits so that I have the look that I like. Problem there is that most people DO NOT look, they just see your appearance and figure you don't have what's needed. This has progressed to the whole "elite groups" mentality that you see in other games, and is why I no longer play SWTOR, WoW, or RIFT.. the communities go to hell in a handcart when this happens.

Another problem with a more traditional leveling system is the need for having multiple alts. Now, granted, I've got CRAZY alt-itis, and I admit it. Anyone who played CoX with me know's I'm well known for it. Not because I have to, but because I love testing out new powersets, attack chains, etc etc. However, the other BIG issue is that I can have alts at lower levels to help out my friends. In the progression system that Defiance has however, you don't need alts. With the only bonuses being ego perks, my level 500 outlaw can team up with your level 300 machinist and together we can go on co-ops, teamable missions, and the lovable arkfalls without seeing anyone getting less of the rewards, or having the mission be an OP kill fest. This is one of the only games with this type of system, and frankly I'm finding that I really like it. One of the biggest advantages for this, honestly, is arkfalls. I've been in arkfall fights with people that have massively different ego levels than me, and been just as competitive as others and gotten rewards based on my own actions, not based on my ego levels.

One more thing: I don't PvP, however there ARE Ego perks that provide substantial protection to players (cellular armor comes to mind), including some that provide advanced protection from being attacked from behind. There are perks that provide LARGE bonuses to base health, perks that reflect damage back onto the enemy, and several others. Remember.. that ego grid is exactly that.. a GRID. You don't need to take the powers directly next to your chosen ego power, but can instead work the grid across to get the powers you want (Currently, I have decoy on my level 280 and most of my equipped perks are from the CENTER of the grid while I work at opening up new perk slots). Be creative with it.. there's not supposed to be a "cookie cutter build" in a shooter.