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  1. #1
    Member crasher's Avatar
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    Considering how the devouring mods don't work for me on devouring weapons....

    And factoring in that putting enhancement points into bonus catagories don't alter the weapons performance (at least the ones in MY inventory) even when running on a full battery and 6 flawless crystals, I'm going to wait until Monday after the daily reset and probably just crush and sell the majority of my Devouring weapons and mods.

    I'm sitting at a 300/300 inv right now, and way too much of it is jammed with devouring rubbish that isn't worth using, and certainly not worth storing.

    I already have tempests with randomly self-deleting bonuses.
    I don't need MORE stuff that stands a better than 50/50 chance to not do what I need it to do.

    I've proven to myself and others who have enhanced/modded devouring weapons like the devouring reaper shotgun and the devouring thunder, that the junk either doesn't work at all, or is basically unreliable, and it's just taking up room to store, and time trying just once more to get something to work more often than not.

    I don't care what you do with your stuff, keep it, bronze it, trash it... it doesn't matter.

    I'm just telling you to take a long look at the stuff, experiment with enhancing/modding it and TAKE SCREEN SHOTS as you proceed step by step, and see for yourself whether yours is worth keeping or not.
    But I've already seen that MY devouring weapons/mods can't be trusted to do what they are listed to do in the weapons card stats.
    And the stats are one of two ways to evaluate weapon worth.
    Stats, and feel.
    Stats: I can see them not working, or being consistant.
    I already know they have bogus value if they're maybe correct maybe sometimes.
    Feel?
    How do you trust 'feel', it also changes day to day, NPC to NPC, Ark to Ark.
    Feeling that something works is an example of a useful placebo.
    Numbers: I can see and compare, and they don't compare well when you expect them to reflect information and value.
    These are just my opinions.
    I have lots of opinions.
    Some of them, on occasion, people have agreed with.
    I do not trust those people.

    NA/pc.
    2013:
    Mid E-5XXX main, but I played 26+ 'toons from E400 to E5500. (Dormant)
    2050: Lvl 499X main

  2. #2
    I feel your pain bro. The weapon stats, both those displayed in the stats card and the ones that actually happen, are full of randomness. I made an experiment to test it, and either the devs have implemented some randomness into it, or it's so buggy that it looks like it.

    So what I did is I used 2 M249 LMG. One is a 5-stars OJ with health nano, the other is a 10-stars prime frigid with electric nano.

    If I look at the stats card, the prime one has higher DPS. Always. Something like 65K vs 60K. Of course both number vary a lot depending on whether my toon is holding one of them, the phase of the moon, etc... So the prime is "stronger". But on healt-based mobs (hellbugs, mutants, etc...) should have an edge. It does, but not such a big one.

    When I shoot just one time on a mob, I can see the damage dealt. This amount varies from day to day for the same gun. So I can see the same variance in the game that I see on the stats card. What I do is I equip both LMG, shoot a mob from a short distance so as to cancel the falloff effect, switch weapon, shoot again. On any shield or armor unit, of course the prime frigid is much higher than the normal one. On health units and bosses, it depends. Sometimes the electric deals more damage, sometimes the fire deals more damage. And I'm not talking DPS here, I'm talking damage dealt by one single bullet.

    So what it means is that the stats are actually changing from time to time. I can see the damage stats change because I can see the damage number, but I have no idea if fire rate or other stats change, that's impossible to "feel" a 10 or 15% change, and as we all know, the stats card can't be trusted.

    Also, my prime frigid has more than 100% bonus to accuracy if I used assassin's first synergy (acc bonus). This means a shooting reticle that's just a +. It also has 0 recoil. When I jump out of my car with that gun equip, quite often the acc and recoil are in the toilet (normal recoil, normal acc), but if I switch to my other gun then come back to my frigid LMG, it's back to recoilless with acc of 0.

    So it is buggy by nature, at least on PS4. But also there might be some randomness coded intentionally in there. Or that randomness is another layer of bugs. It such a simple thing to get right that there's no reason why someone would mess it up, but at the same time there's no reason to include the randomness. At this point, who knows what's a bug and what's a feature?

  3. #3
    Member crasher's Avatar
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    Yep, to all of that.
    I dont need the added issues of trying to figure or hope that a weapon is going to behave this time, or today, or this week.
    Reference my disappearing bonus's on the tempests.

    None of this event syn or matrix synergy do me any good, and thats why I'm just going to crush/sell/ignore it all.

    I'm now sporting 2 tempests.
    My synergy for my tempest loadout:
    1. Agony for 30% accuracy.
    2. Rampage for 40% falloff.
    3. Chaperone for 30% self revive.
    4. Merciless for 30% move speed.
    5. Voltaic for 40% shield break, and
    6. Voltaic Ion damage for continuous shield damage for 6 seconds.
    My 6 star tempest has 8 points in damage and gives +528 damage.
    My 8 star tempest has 9 points in damage but only gives +472 damage.
    That makes no sense to me.


    I'm lvl 75 AR XP, my present bonus at this level is supposed to give:
    -7.0 recoil
    +7.0 recoil recovery
    -8.0 accuracy
    +8.0 aim accuracy.
    I'm not sure i believe any of those stats work all the time, either.

    On my 8 star tempest - my recoil % modifier has been +50% for a 0.25 recoil, when it's there, and 0.50 recoil when it's not there. Right now, at this moment it says +20.5% for 0.40 recoil.


    It's just way overstupid having to dynamically adjust weapon shooting style and tactics to a weapon that's having a bad-hair-day on a moment by moment basis while shooting at holos.


    On the subject of the holos:
    Their bar shows they're protection is health, but they act as if they have superhigh shields. It takes forever to cut the shielding, OK, but by that time the holo can have decided to run passed it's tether, and leash back to start for 100 regen.
    wtf is up with that?
    On occasion there's always some griefer that lures it out over and over just to be a putz, but there's plenty of examples where the holo takes off on it's own out of bounds, and then does the rejuv trick.


    More and more, considering policy like the blinding light the original devs gave BMGs, the vehicle racing courses, and now stuff like event syn not working, the infinitely self-varying stats and holos run amuck, I'm suspecting the 'part time dev team' (or a member on it) is griefing us from inside the Corporate Mothership.
    These are just my opinions.
    I have lots of opinions.
    Some of them, on occasion, people have agreed with.
    I do not trust those people.

    NA/pc.
    2013:
    Mid E-5XXX main, but I played 26+ 'toons from E400 to E5500. (Dormant)
    2050: Lvl 499X main

  4. #4
    None of the 'examples' of 'testing' mentioned above are in any detail or specificity to get into. All I'm seeing are subjective opinions (not to say what you are seeing is wrong).

    I've done an insane amount of specific weapons testing in 5 years in Defiance, and since the start of 2050's beta including the several 'passes' Rarnok and the team have done to systematically change 2050's guns. crasher and I are both in Chaos Crew (PC/NA) so most of what I'm about to say, he's heard already since we do talk about these issues a fair bit. I'm saying this as a preface to some key points to keep in mind if this thread is going to evolve.

    First and foremost. When you are looking at the weapon card's stats within the Weapon Enhance system... bear in mind these values displayed have NEVER (as in, not in Defiance nor in 2050) EVER included the values that the 8 main weapon skill types provide. So no adjustment from leveling up your weapons skills from 1-50 will ever adjust the stats displayed within the Weapon Enhance system preview... however they should kick in and take effect on the weapon card once adjustments are made and it's in your inventory, and further adjusted when it's in your loadout (since a loadout's specific PR value will add a final pass on the damage of your weapon).

    Basically, the dev's realized that every player will have different levels of weapon skill progression and they simply decided to make the preview calculation process simpler by leaving that out in original Defiance.

    The bottom line from this first point is this... comparing the stats in the Weapon Enhance's preview to any gun stat when looked at normally while in your inventory or loadout is an invalid comparison. They will never be the same. Consider the preview a rough estimate, at best, it will NEVER display the actual final stats.


    The second main point I wish to address is something that came up often enough in discussions with Rarnok on the livestreams (back when we had them, in both Defiance and 2050).

    What's actually displayed on the card while it's in inventory and in your loadout isn't the real specific value that's affecting the gun. The server does use the specific and most precise calculation, but it isn't necessarily displayed accurately on the card. That display rounds up/down. That display is more likely to be wrong from a bug of some sort in the gun's creation. Every few months we'd hear confirmation that X stat wasn't accurate on the card, but X affect was in reality happening server side.

    Now, I've shot none of my Devouring guns yet. I tend to wait until they are 4 modded and I've had NO luck reaching that yet on 2 alts. It's possible there are a bevy of errors or just a few that need pointing out and debugging. So I've no examples nor noticed any problem with the Devouring set.


    The last point is... in general, be very wary about sloppy 'testing'. We've seen that bonus effects from your secondary gun (or even one provided from a gun you just removed) can kick in and alter the numbers popping up on screen. This is both as designed when rotating primary/secondary to take advantage of effects... and not as designed. So I caution that when you are testing to remove the chance of other effects complicating your numbers and whenever possible compare like to like as much as possible. Consider taking the ammo/nano effect off your guns (unless that is what you are testing) to avoid the boosts those apply, for instance. Simplify as much as you can so your test comparisons test as close as you can get to what you suspect is bonkers.

    2050 PC/NA Founder: Babydoll (with permission from Professor Chaos) aka Babydahl, Bloody Natasha, Kylarran in Defiance
    Defiance PC/NA Founders: Professor Chaos and Iron Death, RIP brother

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by crasher View Post
    My 6 star tempest has 8 points in damage and gives +528 damage.
    My 8 star tempest has 9 points in damage but only gives +472 damage.
    That makes no sense to me.
    crasher... reset your 25 enhancement points on both guns. You should see that the starting damage bonus roll on your 6 star is approximately +50 pts higher than the starting bonus roll value on your 8 star. Sounds like the dmg roll was just on the low side of the scale on your 8 star. Shouldn't be a problem because the 2 more stars represents 4% more damage to the final damage on the gun and will far outweigh the + difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by crasher View Post
    I'm lvl 75 AR XP
    What? Do you mean to say your AR skill is up to 75 now? Good Lord. Babydoll's only 39 and that's with using my Voidrunner and a host of other awesome event/syn AR's since they came out. WTH. 75 is insane. Congrats you bloody *^*&%)**&.

    Quote Originally Posted by crasher View Post
    On the subject of the holos:
    Their bar shows they're protection is health, but they act as if they have superhigh shields. It takes forever to cut the shielding...
    On an LMG day, Bloody Natasha (who's only LMG uses electric nano) tried it out on the clones, and it did indeed appear they had a ton of shield mitigation. Naturally, I'd expect the usual -50% nerf to card dmg from using electric nano vs mob HP. I tried that for maybe 20 seconds total uptime vs clones and realized it was a futile waste of ammo... and stopped using it on the clones and instead got my LMG kills on the more fragile Dark Matter.

    I'm not sure why you'd use Electric when you should be using Fire for the bonus damage, or a Caustic loadout (6 slotting caustic synergy crystals) to cover both clones and Dark Matter with the same weapon with 'average' results.

    Sure it's your choice how to play and what to use, but I'd find something other than the Tempest for concentrating on the clones... or continue to drag me along to your finals to kill them for you . A Fire Voidrunner stream to the face of a clone is a beautiful thing.

    2050 PC/NA Founder: Babydoll (with permission from Professor Chaos) aka Babydahl, Bloody Natasha, Kylarran in Defiance
    Defiance PC/NA Founders: Professor Chaos and Iron Death, RIP brother

  6. #6
    Kylarran, your 2 posts are so off it's hard to know where to begin:
    1-I'm not sure what you call "sloppy testing" and "subjective opinion". If a gun deals 17,680 dmg on Monday against DM enforcer, and 16,262 dmg against the same DM enforcer on Tuesday, it's not a subjective opinion that it's not the same amount of damage. It's an objective measurement. Unless the damage number displayed is wrong, but at that point it's just a different bug.

    2-The stat cards ARE boinker. It's not whether they display this or that bonus, the problem is that it's almost never the same stats displayed. If a stat card includes bonus A but not bonus B, it should show the same number unless you've changed the values of bonus A somehow. Currently, just equipping a weapon or logging off then back on or teleporting will change the stat on the card.

    3-The variation on the recoil and accuracy of some guns (tempest is most famous for that) is extreme enough that it's not a "feeling" thing. Some times you can't use your tempest, the aiming reticle is half my TV and/or the recoil is so bad I find myself shooting at the sky after 10 rounds. At least to me, it's not a matter of 0.4 or 0.5 recoil or a 5-10% acc bonus that's present or absent, it's more like 10 times recoil and 10 times accuracy. It's ridiculous enough that I prefer using my frigid LMG at this point even though it's less efficient.

  7. #7
    @ICantAim

    Not sure why you mentioned BOTH posts are 'so off' when your follow-up post doesn't say a thing that contradicts the 2nd post.

    Any number of effects can have those damage numbers vary.

    One aspect certainly is the current loadout's PR forces a final recalculation, but there's more to throw those card values out of whack.

    Another would be, for example, there are days when I load in an AR into my Assault spec with Assault Dampen 5/5, yet the reticle starts acting as if I were using a Precision syn weapon, where non-crits start adding accuracy to the gun so it becomes more precise the longer you are on target. I'd have neither had a Precision weapon in either primary or secondary, nor was the new AR I swapped in a Precision syn weapon... but there it was acting as if it was Precision. I've seen evidence of other green effects proccing on guns being fired that weren't the same synergy of the primary or secondary weapon in a loadout.

    I tend not to bother looking anymore since I don't have a desire to go bonkers trying to account for it. I also have no desire to exploit it by having figured out how to 'game' it to force effects that don't belong to the current guns I'm using. I suspect some players may have figured out some patterns, but I suspect it's a small minority.

    Another item you aren't considering at all that could be contributing is the affects provided by your current synergy crystal set of choice in any given loadout. There's a LOT of different effects to account for, in some cases there are proc's that are applied variably who's affect lasts only 6 seconds, and some of them will temporarily ramp up the damages your weapon is doing to the same target. How do you know if you proc'd one or some of those? Did you test your weapon on both days with NO synergy crystals at all active? Do you know that, lets assume you are using a fire nano gun, that at random any fire weapon can apply a 6 second proc (you can tell if you have only if other targets nearby are set on fire and ticking off slight dmg for 6 seconds) and did you know that during the 6 second duration of that proc the fire damage does 10% again more HP damage? Electric weapons do the same vs shields... after you proc a 6 second of damage ticking it also applies 10% more shield damage.

    You can't take nano/ammo mod off a Tempest... but you can begin to watch neighboring mobs for when they spark up with that nano proc. However you can take off the ammo mod on normal purple/OJ's to help clean up any testing comparisons you are doing. But that's yet another reason watching numbers flying off mobs is going to vary that you (most likely, and I'm assuming here) and tons of other players (you are far from alone in this) are not considering in your 'comparisions'.

    Then there is the following:

    Remember, Trion/Gamigo's entire system took a BIG hit when they (I'm sadly unsure just when the following kicked in) introduced the large variable stats bug. It was introduced with one of the event synergies, I 'think' it was the 2nd (or 3rd) event synergy in 2050. Every weapon all of a sudden could be affected on numerous different stats all at once, from one arkfall to the next, from one log in to the next... giving random - and + values to all the main stats. I remember seeing on several occaisions my Pumpkin Patch show reload values of 10 minutes, and certain rocket launchers displaying several minutes for reload times on days you needed RL kills. It affected dmg, accuracy, recoil, reload... all of em. It took the devs over a month to begin to reign it in. That was the same event when multiple effects were proccing at the same time, and that further complicated what they broke to all hell.

    They have claimed they got a handle on it, and they did eventually stop the multiple proc's, but they did NOT permanently clean up the -/+ stat hits weapons were taking. It happens less often now, but it still does happen. This is mostly an assertion on my part.

    I've not attempted to systematically address it with them, and if a gun is going NUTS doing something wild like you've noted with your Tempest, I'll just not waste any time using it. If it doesn't correct itself, typically I roll my mouse middle wheel to change to secondary then back to primary, and this fixes wild reticle anomolies most of the time after I've ported or gotten out of a vehicle on arriving at a new location... then I just swap in a different weapon to do the same job. If that fails, sometimes I'll quick swap to another loadout entirely, and sometimes this fixes the problem. Sometimes it doesn't.

    I've got plenty of options by now (both no synergy and those with event synergy) and have fun with them even if they aren't my top choice. I'm not one of those who's game 'ends' when I can't use a Tempest. (Although to be fair, you've not heard me whinging in clan chat after my VR stops doing damage entirely at arkfalls, that bug tends to affect all explosives, so my swapping to my beloved diggers is also a no-go from the same bug. I'm sure crasher can attest to this.)

    Anyway, there are a number of different problems you've pointed to, I just wanted to point out some things in my first post for Ark Hunters to watch out for so our comparisions are clean and valid. It's not as simple as most make it out to be. Thanks to your follow-up post, I've added a few more problems/solutions for us to consider and rule out when doing 'test comparisons'. There's definitely problems with values on cards. I just caution Ark Hunters on key things to look out for (and simplify/rule out in your testing comparisons) so if anyone cares to put in the effort to help Gamigo debug some of these, they end up finding the right problem to attribute them to, having ruled out other factors by going nanoless and crystal synless, for starters, when possible.

    2050 PC/NA Founder: Babydoll (with permission from Professor Chaos) aka Babydahl, Bloody Natasha, Kylarran in Defiance
    Defiance PC/NA Founders: Professor Chaos and Iron Death, RIP brother

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarran View Post
    I roll my mouse middle wheel to change to secondary then back to primary after gotten out of a vehicle.
    Can be annoying in pvp.

  9. #9
    I didn't want to say it, but I did tell you two numbskulls that the mod syn was crap. OK tbh I did want to say it so I TOLD YOU SO!!!
    Liam Devlin - Leader/Chaos Crew D50

    "To boldy go where no fist has gone before"

  10. #10
    Member crasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fenian View Post
    I didn't want to say it, but I did tell you two numbskulls that the mod syn was crap. OK tbh I did want to say it so I TOLD YOU SO!!!
    I dunno if it's crap, or not.
    The implementation of it is borked to hell and back, so I can't get it to work to tell you if you were right (and this might be the first time you were right about something, I dunno) or not.
    These are just my opinions.
    I have lots of opinions.
    Some of them, on occasion, people have agreed with.
    I do not trust those people.

    NA/pc.
    2013:
    Mid E-5XXX main, but I played 26+ 'toons from E400 to E5500. (Dormant)
    2050: Lvl 499X main

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