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  1. #11
    Member crasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowolves80 View Post
    Yes, but it wouldn't really be releasing any content directly "into the wild," as you put it, because it could only EVER be uploaded to the beta server. The toolkit as envisioned wouldn't even have the functionality to interact with the main server. That beta server would be loaded with the same anti-virus software, and the same exploit-scanning software, that Nexusmods has used for years with almost zero problems. So, that helps alleviate some of the concern Gamigo may have.

    Plus, any content created by the public is, immediately upon creation, considered property of Gamigo. So it's their assets, their servers, their financial gain. Gamigo wouldn't even have to create content to make this work. They could rely entirely upon the content generated by the players on the TECS. Vetting would be done by volunteers and software, same as it is done on [censored].net and Nexusmods. So, Gamigo wouldn't have as big an uphill climb as you might first think.

    And, if Gamigo insists upon keeping its current model, it can simply "buy" the IPs from modders with small amounts of bits, Defiance swag, and other incentives that cost Gamigo's bottom line exactly $0, but generate hundreds of thousands in free advertising. Or, Gamigo can simply form a company of developers separate from itself, and then turn around and "buy" it and keep it as a subsidiary. The policy doesn't even have to really change much, so we're not asking for a sea change here, simply small changes that will reap huge rewards for both Gamigo and the player community.
    Any code written with the toolkit that is introduced to the game engine could potentially be a vehicle for malicious code.
    Any bug fixes or code enhancement that you advocate that is incorporated into the game can contain potential malicious code or back doors, to both the the gamer's using the engine and any contact the game engine has with the servers/company backbone.
    If you want to go with the idea that the tool kit users wouldn't write actual code - then you are proposing that devs working for Gamigo would have to sift through user submited code and recode it themselves, or sift through submitted ideas and have to write virgin code themselves.

    You have a great proposal, don't get me wrong about that, I applaud you.

    But it is far from free or low cost, and it is far from risk free.

    It's not inconceivable that the company lawyers would never advocate letting the company open itself to outside manipulation. Company devs can be held liable for malfeasance or misfeasance, 'guys on the net submitting code' can make themselves invisible to the law if they really want to work at it (in a worst case scenario) in ways employees and contractors can't easily do in a professional sense.

    The point to all this is that the back-end and the over-head to make your ideas work is bigger than you anticipate, and Gamigo may not be in any kind of position to make it happen, they just might not have the infrastructure.

    Like I said, convince them.
    Your proposal as submitted so far is little better than a memo.

    But it's apparent to all who read this thread that you have a good heart.
    These are just my opinions.
    I have lots of opinions.
    Some of them, on occasion, people have agreed with.
    I do not trust those people.

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  2. #12
    Member twowolves80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crasher View Post
    Any code written with the toolkit that is introduced to the game engine could potentially be a vehicle for malicious code.
    Any bug fixes or code enhancement that you advocate that is incorporated into the game can contain potential malicious code or back doors, to both the the gamer's using the engine and any contact the game engine has with the servers/company backbone.
    If you want to go with the idea that the tool kit users wouldn't write actual code - then you are proposing that devs working for Gamigo would have to sift through user submited code and recode it themselves, or sift through submitted ideas and have to write virgin code themselves.

    You have a great proposal, don't get me wrong about that, I applaud you.

    But it is far from free or low cost, and it is far from risk free.

    It's not inconceivable that the company lawyers would never advocate letting the company open itself to outside manipulation. Company devs can be held liable for malfeasance or misfeasance, 'guys on the net submitting code' can make themselves invisible to the law if they really want to work at it (in a worst case scenario) in ways employees and contractors can't easily do in a professional sense.

    The point to all this is that the back-end and the over-head to make your ideas work is bigger than you anticipate, and Gamigo may not be in any kind of position to make it happen, they just might not have the infrastructure.

    Like I said, convince them.
    Your proposal as submitted so far is little better than a memo.

    But it's apparent to all who read this thread that you have a good heart.

    Well, thanks, Crasher. I'm trying not to be one of those guys that just sits on the forum *****ing about the problems instead of finding actual solutions (above and beyond normal bug reporting--you know who they are).

    True, any code written with the TECS would be potentially dangerous...but so is everything uploaded to the Nexus. The company whose name starts with a B, however, seems to have a working solution to it. Granted, it's not for the MMO version, but the base assets are still the same--it's all still running off the Frostbite engine (and the good ol' Papyrus scripting...soooo ancient...). No, I'm still advocating that the modders would be writing a bit of code--you'd have to in order to be able to write scripts for animations, character interactions, quest triggers, et cetera.

    However, having it all in a TECS format similar to another popular toolkit would mean that modders would be taking scripts that already work and modify them to make new quests, animations, et cetera. So, not having to re-invent the wheel would help a lot.

    Yes, I am absolutely 100% advocating for Gamigo to sit down and sift, but with a caveat: The beta server would do a lot of the heavy lifting as far as play testing goes. The beta server would have a stripped down version of the game engine (just enough to run physics and basic functions, limited on animations, and no cutaway video scenes) that would, in conjunction with the AV suite, filter out 90% of the crapware any idiots might try to upload. The remaining 10% would fall upon the shoulders of play testers (whom could even be the moderators for that server) and other gamers. This idea could even be expanded on to take even more of the load off the shoulders of Gamigo:

    Players could invite other players to the beta server to test out new mods. They'd get a unique one-time pass key (similar to Team Viewer) allowing them to log onto the beta server. If they choose to download the TECS, they'd have to sign a separate EULA from the game's EULA, would have to register their account, and any activity on the TECS would be logged (both for security and debugging purposes). So anyone firing up their TECS and logging onto the beta server would automatically be scrutinized by the security software and other moderators. If Gamigo suspected someone of uploading anything that went against the community guidelines/EULA, all they'd need to do is look at their account. Only people with a legit copy of the TECS would be able to upload (or even access) the beta server. Attempts to make a pirated copy would be for naught, as each TECS download (even if you're downloading it for the third or fourth time) would come with a instantly-generated 128-bit encryption passkey, and that could be handled internally in the software itself where you logon with your normal credentials, and the TECS checks the beta server's logs to make sure the passkey is legit. The passkey wouldn't even have to be seen or accessible by players to make this work. All of this could be based off of the other toolkit made by [censored] because it ALL has already been done, it just hasn't been applied in this novel way.


    This also prevents someone from simply uploading crapware on a crap account, and then vanish. Sorry, pal, your MAC and IP was registered the moment you created the account for the TECS, and it would have to be a legit IP and not one on a proxy list. Gamigo could make this even more draconian if they wanted to ensure bad actors are kept out.

    On the flip side of your point is that "guys on the net submitting code" can also design and create things that the devs might not be able to or have time to. Who would have thought when [censored...Dovakhiin!] came out that three years later, Sheson would come out with a mod that completely revolutionized the game's LODs with his mod, DynDOLOD? The software engineers for that game never thought such a thing was possible, or ever conceived that there would be a need for it. Point is, modders are magic; they can do things, given enough time, that are nothing short of astounding.

    And best of all, by retaining ownership of all assets (including those created on the TECS), Gamigo has full ownership rights. Which means if, say, RaiderGoggles_01 shows up on the web somewhere that isn't owned by Gamigo, they can DMCA it and sue and press charges for theft of intellectual property, so they'd have a pretty solid legal bastion against those sorts of shenanigans. Plus, with the TECS giving all modified assets a bashtag of MOD or MODIFIED, the servers will be able to instantly differentiate between legit Gamigo stuff, and player-made, and the main server would thusly be able to refuse anything with that bashtag, preventing malicious uploads to the main server above and beyond the passkey security for the TECS and the beta server.

    Really enjoy having you play my devil's advocate, Crasher, because I think we're making headway in solving some of the problems Gamigo will undoubtedly point to.
    "Death inspires me like a dog inspires a rabbit." --Twenty One Pilots, Heavy, Dirty Soul

    "We each owe a death. There are no exceptions. But oh, God, sometimes the Green Mile seems so long." --Paul Edgecomb

    Who am I? Just a rolling stone, gathering no moss; a fool who knows nothing, only that he's lost. --tw

  3. #13
    Man, making a kit to let anyone mod your game is a load of work. It's a lot more work than what we typically ask, which is to fix a few bugs. You're asking for thousands of man-hours here. It's a company that can't spare 5 minutes to place rocket launchers in the category of rocket launchers we're talking about.

    We ask for an inch, they close themselves like clams, and then you're asking for a mile.

  4. #14
    Member twowolves80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICantAim View Post
    Man, making a kit to let anyone mod your game is a load of work. It's a lot more work than what we typically ask, which is to fix a few bugs. You're asking for thousands of man-hours here. It's a company that can't spare 5 minutes to place rocket launchers in the category of rocket launchers we're talking about.

    We ask for an inch, they close themselves like clams, and then you're asking for a mile.
    Yes, but here's the thing: That mile will become the Million Dollar Mile if they roll it out correctly. [Censored]'s market is primed for hostile takeover because of their absolute horrendous rollout of [censored], and then came the canvas bag fiasco, and then came the bugs and absolute emptiness of the MMO...even more so than defiance. Not an NPC to be seen for miles.

    Hell, they could throw together a Pac-Man RPG and it would give [censored] a beat down financially after that. That potentiality is there and it is vast. It's like how lightning occurs where there's a huge swell of negative ions, right? Well, the modding community is that swell of ions, and this game is the anode. All they have to do is throw the switch.

    And let's not forget what Warren Buffet said. When people are running away from the markets, that's the time to buy! Think about it! The corona virus is everywhere. Russia is again building up strategic power in Europe. China is trying to take over through 5G and worse. People are depressed, can't go anywhere, and want a release. I predict there will be a lot of autumn babies this year, and there absolutely will be a challenger to [censored], if for no other reason than to throw down the gauntlet and tell them that kind of shoddy behavior is not acceptable.

    And also, Crasher, I never said there wasn't risk. There's risk in everything in life. But right now, Gamigo is flush with cash from Trove. They're going to piss it away no matter what, so why not do so on something worthwhile so that when a recession comes around again, you have a core game audience that will never leave and continue to buy more and more product? The psychological impetus is there; Gamigo only needs to capitalize on it.

    Also, I really get how many hours of programming we're talking here. I mean, I really do. I mod games like [censored] and [censored], so I know what a PITA it can be. But you can bet your bottom dollar they already have a tool kit for the devs. After [censored] came out with theirs, the other game companies stood up and took notice. So they already have the framework for everything they need. They have the dev tool kit (which can be tweaked by their staff to wall off/eliminate certain features), they are flush with cash from Trove, they have a killer foundation in this game, they have the perfect market to release it in, and they have a dedicated fanbase, small though it is, and moreover, I'm willing to bet that fanbase also knows quite a few people over on the Nexus.

    All Gamigo has to really do is start opening the door. Why would you not want to offer Defiance swag all the time? Why would you not want to offer Trove swag? Why would you not want to offer contests to win bits and bit trash and swag? It's all free advertising that costs the company nothing because they can write it off as a business expense and/or loss.

    All the potential is there. Who will be the anode and make lightning strike?

    "Death inspires me like a dog inspires a rabbit." --Twenty One Pilots, Heavy, Dirty Soul

    "We each owe a death. There are no exceptions. But oh, God, sometimes the Green Mile seems so long." --Paul Edgecomb

    Who am I? Just a rolling stone, gathering no moss; a fool who knows nothing, only that he's lost. --tw

  5. #15
    Man, I wish I had a pair of pink colored glasses like yours. Real life is so not the way you think it is.

    Modding games is something passinate amateurs do. Writing code is something that passionate amateurs do very sh!tilly, and professionals who do it well get paid well for it.

    I understand that you think modding this game would bring in tons of moolah. I don't think you're right. Neither does gamigo. Actually I don't think many people would even be interested in modding defiance. Obviously gamigo doesn't think it's the best use of their capital.

    If you really think you can make bazilions of dollars/euro/rubles with your idea, pick up the phone, call gamigo, and offer to buy defiance's IP. I'm pretty sure they would sell it for cheap. Then you can go ahead and do your thing. Until then, man, it's obvious that gamigo isn't interested the least bit in putting a dime into this game. They've really made it clear since they took over.

  6. #16
    Member twowolves80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICantAim View Post
    Man, I wish I had a pair of pink colored glasses like yours. Real life is so not the way you think it is.

    Modding games is something passinate amateurs do. Writing code is something that passionate amateurs do very sh!tilly, and professionals who do it well get paid well for it.
    That is the first point in which you are wrong. In the above-mentioned game that came out before the MMO, the above-mentioned company said vehicles were impossible in the game. Six months later, someone we all suspect f being a secret drone for that company wrote a mod that made it possible, and it works great. That took a very sophisticated bit of coding to do. He didn't get paid, he got only the recognition of others on Nexus. That's it.

    So I find your argument that only "professionals" who are getting "paid well" would want to write code. This guy above had to learn to write not only the scripting, but put it together with the proper trigger commands and everything so it would integrate with the Frostbite engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantAim View Post
    I understand that you think modding this game would bring in tons of moolah. I don't think you're right...Actually I don't think many people would even be interested in modding defiance. Obviously gamigo doesn't think it's the best use of their capital.
    I respectfully disagree. There's already a market for personalization--costumes, makeup, etc. What about all the bit trash in the store? All personalized stuff. Skins for weapons. Why not skins for cars? Why not be able to build your own vehicles out of a set of pre-built assets? Mix and match for different effects so you can not only run the enemy over, but slice them up with spinners on the wheels? People will pay for that, just as they already pay for clothes and everything else. Such sundries are huge in Japan in RPG games, and Japan is about 5 years ahead of us. This will become automated in the future, and a normal part of gaming. It's only avant-garde now because it's not yet been done in an MMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantAim View Post
    Neither does gamigo.
    Which is the point of this thread--to convince Gamigo there is a chance to catch lightning in a bottle.


    Quote Originally Posted by ICantAim View Post
    If you really think you can make bazilions of dollars/euro/rubles with your idea, pick up the phone, call gamigo, and offer to buy defiance's IP. I'm pretty sure they would sell it for cheap
    Making sarcastic suggestions does not further the thread. Gamigo is not going to sell it cheap when they still hold a contract with dodge to use dodge vehicles in their game. And I don't know where you come from, but I don't have six or seven figures just laying around to go venture investing.
    "Death inspires me like a dog inspires a rabbit." --Twenty One Pilots, Heavy, Dirty Soul

    "We each owe a death. There are no exceptions. But oh, God, sometimes the Green Mile seems so long." --Paul Edgecomb

    Who am I? Just a rolling stone, gathering no moss; a fool who knows nothing, only that he's lost. --tw

  7. #17
    Member KevinVonBach's Avatar
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    Reading all of what you've posted here makes me wish Gamingo shared the same passion for the game that you do.
    Defiance 2050 = 2018's worst cash grab. 100% fact.
    Medjed: "Trust me, we will do our best to avoid any unanswered questions."
    Imagine trying to peddle bit store trash instead of fixing the game in 2020.

  8. #18
    Member twowolves80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KevinVonBach View Post
    Reading all of what you've posted here makes me wish Gamingo shared the same passion for the game that you do.
    Maybe, if we show them that the obstacles are minor and can be overcome, they will discover a sudden passion for making gobs of money. lol

    Hope springs eternal, right?
    "Death inspires me like a dog inspires a rabbit." --Twenty One Pilots, Heavy, Dirty Soul

    "We each owe a death. There are no exceptions. But oh, God, sometimes the Green Mile seems so long." --Paul Edgecomb

    Who am I? Just a rolling stone, gathering no moss; a fool who knows nothing, only that he's lost. --tw

  9. #19
    Member crasher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twowolves80 View Post
    Maybe, if we show them that the obstacles are minor and can be overcome, they will discover a sudden passion for making gobs of money. lol

    Hope springs eternal, right?
    In spite of the issues I mentioned above, I think you have some great ideas, and I agree that it COULD work if given the chance.
    There just happens to be a page full of issues that need to be addressed by them to make it work out smoothly (normal business/legal stuff) and some investment of capitol to bring it off.

    In the end, you can bang on the door all day long, but they have to be willing to even get up off the sofa and ask what you want.
    These are just my opinions.
    I have lots of opinions.
    Some of them, on occasion, people have agreed with.
    I do not trust those people.

    NA/pc.
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  10. #20
    Member twowolves80's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crasher View Post
    In spite of the issues I mentioned above, I think you have some great ideas, and I agree that it COULD work if given the chance.
    There just happens to be a page full of issues that need to be addressed by them to make it work out smoothly (normal business/legal stuff) and some investment of capitol to bring it off.

    In the end, you can bang on the door all day long, but they have to be willing to even get up off the sofa and ask what you want.
    So...how do we convince them? How else, but by showing the profit potential is greater than the risk, or at least mitigating those risks to make the profitability more attractive and "safe" looking to their number crunchers?

    Nothing we can do about the investment capitol. However, I think we can work out the rest ourselves (within reason), and the more work that we, the players/modders do, the more attractive it will look because it requires less work on their part.

    Maybe we should all be emailing Herr Remco Westermann at info@gamigo.com...? Might look better if we get all the ideas hashed out with pros and cons listed for each, and submit it as a report that some drone can easily collate for the upper management...

    Keep playing devil's advocate, Crasher--I love it. Helps refine the idea by figuring out the obstacles to overcome before we reach them or before they become an issue.
    "Death inspires me like a dog inspires a rabbit." --Twenty One Pilots, Heavy, Dirty Soul

    "We each owe a death. There are no exceptions. But oh, God, sometimes the Green Mile seems so long." --Paul Edgecomb

    Who am I? Just a rolling stone, gathering no moss; a fool who knows nothing, only that he's lost. --tw

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